- It is terrible in Draft/Sealed, since having half your creatures with it and half without means you probably have to do more than 20 points of damage to kill him.
- It means more information to keep track of. Imagine having your deck, with an Energy token and a Poison token on a small table to pay magic: there's going to be no more room for creatures.
- It has gone up the Stormscale, going from 3 to 6.
So, by the time I finished writing this post, I convinced myself it probably isn't going to happen, but that we will probably see other abilities using -1/-1 counters, namely Wither and Persist. Hopefully, that means everyone's favorite Ouphe might be reprinted soon.
Maybe both wither and persist? I definitely think wither has potential, especially with design space explored on noncreature damage sources. (A la Puncture Blast)
Persist is also a very cool mechanic. It could allow for a Kitchen Finks masterpiece, for one thing
You don't call "dying to removal" if the removal is more expensive in resources than the creature. If you have to spend BG (Abrupt Decay), or W + basic land (PtE) to remove a 1G, that is not "dying to removal". Strictly speaking Goyf dies to removal, but actually your removal is dying to Goyf.
Not unless Ouphes are on Amonkhet. Not exactly up there with Mummies and Sphinxes, you know?
But yeah, I think Wither is more likely than Infect. Yes, poison would work well with Winding Constrictor and mini-proliferate, but maybe too well.
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MTGS Wikia Article about "New World Order"
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
PSA to everyone who keeps forgetting about the Reserved List:
You're on a website dedicated to talking about MtG. You're only a few keystrokes away from finding out what cards are on the Reserved List. You're also only a few keystrokes away from finding out why some cards on the Reserved List got foil printings in FtV, as Judge promos, or whatnot, as well as why that won't happen again. Stop doing this.
Honesty I hope for something new since we don't see -1/-1 counter a lot and I think their is a good amount of design space in it.
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“There are no weak Jews. I am descended from those who wrestle angels and kill giants. We were chosen by God. You were chosen by a pathetic little man who can't seem to grow a full mustache"
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
Nope, the bad guy is Bolas, and there's no reason for Phyrexians here. Infect is strongly tied to Phyrexia and is also really, really hard to develop, putting it mildly, as well as being a polarizing mechanic - I love infect, and so do a lot of other people, but just as many people hate it.
We might get wither as a returning keyword, though.
Wizards hates fun, so I highly doubt there will ever be a return of Infect.
Maro loves it, so they will still occasionally revive it, no doubt,
but it may stay confined to supplementary products,
as more good Infect stuff would break Modern and possibly Legacy.
Persist also has issues, at least when the creatures have etb abilities,
so I see Wither as the most likely old mechanic involving -1/-1 counters,
if there even is one.
Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
Melek, Izzet Paragon
Oona, Queen of the Fae
Bruna, Light of Alabaster
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Rhys the Redeemed
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Sen Triplets
The Mimeoplasm WUBRGSliver OverlordGRBUW WUBRGSliver Hivelord(Superfriends)GRBUW
Wizards hates fun, so I highly doubt there will ever be a return of Infect.
Fun varies, so them not bringing it back isn't a knock against that. Something that was not extremely divisive doesn't make sense to bring back willy nilly.
And Phyrexians make no sense. Why would Bolas bring something to destroy his own plane? I don't think it's Infect. -1/-1 counters could be anything new too.
Wizards hates unfun mechanics, so I highly doubt there will ever be a return of Infect.
FTFY
Having an alternate life total that is half of the usual is well and good with cards that add a fixed one or two poison counters at a time, but scaling that to a creature's power was a critical mistake.
I don't think so. Looking at both versions of nicol bolas I see this as being a control heavy block to kind of balance out the aggro that's really good now. I also see more of a color balance coming. White in this block will be fairly weak I think compared to any of the grixis colors individually. Think stuff like 'apathy' in blue. Maybe something similar to 'blast of genius' or 'abandon hope'. There's lots of good control cards that they can look back to in the past that can easily be expanded upon to fit the way the game is played currently. Infect and other aggro strategies will still be in standard but in draft and limited this block will be all about that control.
I would rather see Poisonous X come back than Infect. Why? Because Infect has shown that pump spells get really out of hand when used in tandem with it like Invigorate on a Glistener Elf. As its the equivalent of being punched for 10 damage. Which by turn 2 is merely cost G and two cards.
Well what does Poisonous X have over Infect? It also places poison counters on the target, but its not determined by buff spells, its by the number in the X. So Virulent Sliver and Snake Cult Initiation are much more fair. Pairing it up with Wither also creates a sort of Lim-Dûl's Paladin sort of deal where the creature can certainly stomp out other creatures and planeswalker but it doesn't hit as hard to the opponent in terms of how many poison counters they get.
It doesn't change that Proliferate and similar functioning abilities still increase the poison counters, but its not getting punched in the mouth for 10+ poison damage by a 1/1 elf with infect. If it were instead a 1/1 Elf with Poisonous 1 and Wither, it would be a much more fair and balanced card.
As has been said, I think it would be disgusting to have to pack around a poison counter card and an energy counter card just to make sense of Standard - I hate extra fluff enough as it is so I doubt they'd stack all that up. Imagine someone trying to get into the game and being hit with all that day one when they're just trying to figure out if their Doom Blade can attack
I would rather see Poisonous X come back than Infect. Why? Because Infect has shown that pump spells get really out of hand when used in tandem with it like Invigorate on a Glistener Elf. As its the equivalent of being punched for 10 damage. Which by turn 2 is merely cost G and two cards.
Well what does Poisonous X have over Infect? It also places poison counters on the target, but its not determined by buff spells, its by the number in the X. So Virulent Sliver and Snake Cult Initiation are much more fair. Pairing it up with Wither also creates a sort of Lim-Dûl's Paladin sort of deal where the creature can certainly stomp out other creatures and planeswalker but it doesn't hit as hard to the opponent in terms of how many poison counters they get.
It doesn't change that Proliferate and similar functioning abilities still increase the poison counters, but its not getting punched in the mouth for 10+ poison damage by a 1/1 elf with infect. If it were instead a 1/1 Elf with Poisonous 1 and Wither, it would be a much more fair and balanced card.
Poisonous X has the same problem as "Whenever ~ deals combat damage to a player, that player puts the top N cards of his or her library into his or her graveyard". All too often, the combat damage itself beats the opponent faster than whatever else you do to them through combat damage. That's why they created Infect in the first place: Tying the poison to the creature's power made it more efficient and made the design feel more cohesive. That said, yes Infect is a polarizing mechanic, but that doesn't make it bad because it means there are still players who really like Infect.
Infect's main problem is developmental difficulty; that is, it's hard to balance. Consider that the strongest Infect creature was a 1/1 Elf, because of how well it comboed with pump spells, especially Mutagenic Growth.
If I were to guess that Amonkhet is introducing another type of player counter, I would guess doom counters that accumulate on opponents, with certain spells scaling in strength based on the number of doom counters the target player has. Say, a 1/3 creature that gives the opponent a doom counter whenever it connects, then makes them lose life equal to the number of doom counters they have.
I'm actually working with a similar idea for my Seasons block, called cold counters (obviously featured in the Winter set). Cold counters work the same way, but with a different flavor.
MTGS Wikia Article about "New World Order"
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
PSA to everyone who keeps forgetting about the Reserved List:
You're on a website dedicated to talking about MtG. You're only a few keystrokes away from finding out what cards are on the Reserved List. You're also only a few keystrokes away from finding out why some cards on the Reserved List got foil printings in FtV, as Judge promos, or whatnot, as well as why that won't happen again. Stop doing this.
Possible POISON counters, but not Infect. Infect is the signature of New Phyrexian as Annihilator to the Eldrazis. POISON fits the Egyptian theme but we are not getting it through INFECT creatures, there is a chance we can get POISON counters from creatures like Crypt Cobra, Swamp Mosquito, Marsh Viper, Pit Scorpion, Sabertooth Cobra, and might even get Leeches! It fits the EGYPTIAN PLANE theme.
Poisonous X has the same problem as "Whenever ~ deals combat damage to a player, that player puts the top N cards of his or her library into his or her graveyard". All too often, the combat damage itself beats the opponent faster than whatever else you do to them through combat damage. That's why they created Infect in the first place: Tying the poison to the creature's power made it more efficient and made the design feel more cohesive. That said, yes Infect is a polarizing mechanic, but that doesn't make it bad because it means there are still players who really like Infect.
From what I just found today, according to MaRo on Infect, SOM block had Poisonous X and Wither during its development. What they decided to do was combine the two and change combat damage to just damage. So my idea with Glistener Elf was actually much more spot on than I thought.
Infect's main problem is developmental difficulty; that is, it's hard to balance. Consider that the strongest Infect creature was a 1/1 Elf, because of how well it comboed with pump spells, especially Mutagenic Growth.
I think the unforeseen problem they opened up with Infect however when they combined those two mechanics is they didn't keep the limiter to what Poisonous X had. Also the reason they did up Infect's power from Poisonous X is because: "Infect was originally Poisonous, but the locked amount prevented much card interaction and kept the mechanic from having any drama and excitement."Source
If I were to guess that Amonkhet is introducing another type of player counter, I would guess doom counters that accumulate on opponents, with certain spells scaling in strength based on the number of doom counters the target player has. Say, a 1/3 creature that gives the opponent a doom counter whenever it connects, then makes them lose life equal to the number of doom counters they have. I'm actually working with a similar idea for my Seasons block, called cold counters (obviously featured in the Winter set). Cold counters work the same way, but with a different flavor.
Possible POISON counters, but not Infect. Infect is the signature of New Phyrexian as Annihilator to the Eldrazis. POISON fits the Egyptian theme but we are not getting it through INFECT creatures, there is a chance we can get POISON counters from creatures like Crypt Cobra, Swamp Mosquito, Marsh Viper, Pit Scorpion, Sabertooth Cobra, and might even get Leeches! It fits the EGYPTIAN PLANE theme.
The issue with poison is it is hard for people to understand. Especially if they are used to infect and you have to explain that they take X damage from the creature and get Y damage from the poison. Virulent Sliver, Snake Cult Initiation vs Corpse Cur
It would be beneficial to have another set with poison so we could get some new and better answers other then Melira, Sylvok Outcast
So far I'm the only person to answer yes. I think Bolas is the perfect person to bring back the Phyrexians. We've waited long enough too. That Planar Portal has to bring something to Amonkhet, and the scariest thing connected to -1/-1 counters has to be the Phyrexians. Bolas doesn't **** around.
Bolas can not control the Phyrexians. He knows this. And it is extremely unlikely that he would want to infect a world that he is effectively the God Emperor of with phyrexians.
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It's about time for the reserved list to die, for the sake of Vintage and Legacy (And Commander).
Not unless Ouphes are on Amonkhet. Not exactly up there with Mummies and Sphinxes, you know?
But yeah, I think Wither is more likely than Infect. Yes, poison would work well with Winding Constrictor and mini-proliferate, but maybe too well.
Winding Constrictor only works on you and things you control, so it's not so much "working well" as "Well okay you've killed yourself for some reason. Good game, I guess."
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Cyme we inne frið, fram the grip of deaþ to lif inne ðis smylte land.
Possible POISON counters, but not Infect. Infect is the signature of New Phyrexian as Annihilator to the Eldrazis. POISON fits the Egyptian theme but we are not getting it through INFECT creatures, there is a chance we can get POISON counters from creatures like Crypt Cobra, Swamp Mosquito, Marsh Viper, Pit Scorpion, Sabertooth Cobra, and might even get Leeches! It fits the EGYPTIAN PLANE theme.
I was basically going to post the same thing. If there is poison counters in the set, I think a lot of people would be happy to see it done like these old cards and not bringing back infect. Plus, these cards seem to fit the theme of the block. One note, Leeches is on the reserved list.
- We know that -1/-1 counters are coming back in Amonkhet thanks to the Planeswalker packs leak: http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/magic-fundamentals/the-rumor-mill/771022-gideon-martial-paragon-liliana-deaths-manipulator
- There are a few creatures that care about counters on creatures and players (Winding Constrictor and Maulfist Revolutionary). Yes, it's partially because of Energy counters, but Wizards like to do previews of future mechanics through a few cards.
- Poison fits an Egyptian theme.
That said, there are a few points against it:
- It is terrible in Draft/Sealed, since having half your creatures with it and half without means you probably have to do more than 20 points of damage to kill him.
- It means more information to keep track of. Imagine having your deck, with an Energy token and a Poison token on a small table to pay magic: there's going to be no more room for creatures.
- It has gone up the Stormscale, going from 3 to 6.
So, by the time I finished writing this post, I convinced myself it probably isn't going to happen, but that we will probably see other abilities using -1/-1 counters, namely Wither and Persist. Hopefully, that means everyone's favorite Ouphe might be reprinted soon.
WBC Eldrazi & Taxes CBW
UR Keep on Cantripin' (UR Phoenix) RU
WU Surprise! It's not UW Control! (UW Midrange) UW
BG The Rock, Straight BG
U Mono-Blue Fish U
RBW Mardu Pyromancer BWR
RG Rabble! Rabble! (GR Blood Moon Aggro) GR
Legacy
W Death & Taxes W
Currently Playing:
Legacy: Something U/W Controlish
EDH Cube
Hypercube! A New EDH Deck Every Week(ish)!
This. Presist or Wither seems more likely for a return. Though i don't think both at the same time will happen.
BAfter the lights go out on you, after your worthless life is through. I will remember how you scream...B
Persist is also a very cool mechanic. It could allow for a Kitchen Finks masterpiece, for one thing
"OH GOD MY BRAIN IS EXPLOADING AT HOW BAD THE ART IS ON MY OWN CARD"
-A friend's first impression of Ancestral Recall
10/10, I tapped.
But yeah, I think Wither is more likely than Infect. Yes, poison would work well with Winding Constrictor and mini-proliferate, but maybe too well.
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
We might get wither as a returning keyword, though.
I̟̥͍̠ͅn̩͉̣͍̬͚ͅ ̬̬͖t̯̹̞̺͖͓̯̤h̘͍̬e͙̯͈̖̼̮ ̭̬f̺̲̲̪i͙͉̟̩̰r̪̝͚͈̝̥͍̝̲s̼̻͇̘̳͔ͅt̲̺̳̗̜̪̙ ̳̺̥̻͚̗ͅm̜̜̟̰͈͓͎͇o̝̖̮̝͇m̯̻̞̼̫̗͓̤e̩̯̬̮̩n͎̱̪̲̹͖t͇̖s̰̮ͅ,̤̲͙̻̭̻̯̹̰ ̖t̫̙̺̯͖͚̯ͅh͙̯̦̳̗̰̟e͖̪͉̼̯ ̪͕g̞̣͔a̗̦t̬̬͓͙̫̖̭̻e̩̻̯ ̜̖̦̖̤̭͙̬t̞̹̥̪͎͉ͅo͕͚͍͇̲͇͓̺ ̭̬͙͈̣̻t͈͍͙͓̫̖͙̩h̪̬̖̙e̗͈ ̗̬̟̞̺̤͉̯ͅa̦̯͚̙̜̮f͉͙̲̣̞̼t̪̤̞̣͚e̲͉̳̥r͇̪̙͚͓l̥̞̞͎̹̯̹ͅi͓̬f̮̥̬̞͈ͅe͎ ̟̩̤̳̠̯̩̯o̮̘̲p̟͚̣̞͉͓e͍̩̣n͔̼͕͚̜e̬̱d̼̘͎̖̹͍̮̠,͖̺̭̱̮ ̣̲͖̬̪̭̥a̪͚n̟̲̝̤̤̞̗d̘̱̗͇̮͕̳͕͔ ͖̞͉͎t̹̙͎h̰̱͉̗e̪̞̱̝̹̩ͅ ̠̱̩̭̦p̯̙e͓o̳͚̰̯̺̱̰͔̘p̬͎̱̣̼̩͇l̗̟̖͚̠e̱͉͔̱̦̬̟̙ ̖͚̪͔̼̦w̺̖̤̱e͖̗̻̦͓̖̘̜r̭̥e͔̹̫̱͕̦̰͕ ̗͔̠p̠̗͍͍̱̳̠r̰͔͎̰o͉̥͓̰͚̥s̟͚̹̱͔̣t͉̙̳̖͖̪̮r̥̘̥͙̹a͉̟̫̟̳̠̟̭t͈̜̰͈͎e̞̣̭̲̬ ͚̗̯̟͙i͍͖̰̘̦͖͉ṇ̮̻̯̦̲̩͍ ̦̮͚̫̤t͉͖̫͕ͅͅh͙̮̻̘̣̮̼e͕̺ ͙l͕̠͎̰̥i̲͓͉̲g̫̳̟͈͇̖h̠̦̖t͓̯͎̗ ̳̪̘̟̙̩̦o̫̲f̙͔̰̙̠ ̹̪̗͇̯t͖̼̼͉͖̬h̹͇̩e͚̖̺̤͉̹͕̪ ͚͓̭̝̺G͎̗̯̩o̫̯̮̟̮̳̘d̜̲͙̠-̩̳̯̲̗̜P̹̘̥͉̝h͍͈̗̖̝ͅa͍̗̮̼̗r̜̖͇̙̺a̭̺͔̞̳͈o̪̣͓̯̬͙̯̰̗h̖̦͈̥̯͔.͇̣̙̝
Maro loves it, so they will still occasionally revive it, no doubt,
but it may stay confined to supplementary products,
as more good Infect stuff would break Modern and possibly Legacy.
Persist also has issues, at least when the creatures have etb abilities,
so I see Wither as the most likely old mechanic involving -1/-1 counters,
if there even is one.
Reprint Stasis!
Control needs more love.
EDH:
Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
Melek, Izzet Paragon
Oona, Queen of the Fae
Bruna, Light of Alabaster
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Rhys the Redeemed
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Sen Triplets
The Mimeoplasm
WUBRGSliver OverlordGRBUW
WUBRGSliver Hivelord(Superfriends)GRBUW
Fun varies, so them not bringing it back isn't a knock against that. Something that was not extremely divisive doesn't make sense to bring back willy nilly.
And Phyrexians make no sense. Why would Bolas bring something to destroy his own plane? I don't think it's Infect. -1/-1 counters could be anything new too.
FTFY
Having an alternate life total that is half of the usual is well and good with cards that add a fixed one or two poison counters at a time, but scaling that to a creature's power was a critical mistake.
Well what does Poisonous X have over Infect? It also places poison counters on the target, but its not determined by buff spells, its by the number in the X. So Virulent Sliver and Snake Cult Initiation are much more fair. Pairing it up with Wither also creates a sort of Lim-Dûl's Paladin sort of deal where the creature can certainly stomp out other creatures and planeswalker but it doesn't hit as hard to the opponent in terms of how many poison counters they get.
It doesn't change that Proliferate and similar functioning abilities still increase the poison counters, but its not getting punched in the mouth for 10+ poison damage by a 1/1 elf with infect. If it were instead a 1/1 Elf with Poisonous 1 and Wither, it would be a much more fair and balanced card.
No you didn't.
Poisonous X has the same problem as "Whenever ~ deals combat damage to a player, that player puts the top N cards of his or her library into his or her graveyard". All too often, the combat damage itself beats the opponent faster than whatever else you do to them through combat damage. That's why they created Infect in the first place: Tying the poison to the creature's power made it more efficient and made the design feel more cohesive. That said, yes Infect is a polarizing mechanic, but that doesn't make it bad because it means there are still players who really like Infect.
Infect's main problem is developmental difficulty; that is, it's hard to balance. Consider that the strongest Infect creature was a 1/1 Elf, because of how well it comboed with pump spells, especially Mutagenic Growth.
If I were to guess that Amonkhet is introducing another type of player counter, I would guess doom counters that accumulate on opponents, with certain spells scaling in strength based on the number of doom counters the target player has. Say, a 1/3 creature that gives the opponent a doom counter whenever it connects, then makes them lose life equal to the number of doom counters they have.
I'm actually working with a similar idea for my Seasons block, called cold counters (obviously featured in the Winter set). Cold counters work the same way, but with a different flavor.
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
I think the unforeseen problem they opened up with Infect however when they combined those two mechanics is they didn't keep the limiter to what Poisonous X had. Also the reason they did up Infect's power from Poisonous X is because: "Infect was originally Poisonous, but the locked amount prevented much card interaction and kept the mechanic from having any drama and excitement." Source
That sounds very cool.
The issue with poison is it is hard for people to understand. Especially if they are used to infect and you have to explain that they take X damage from the creature and get Y damage from the poison. Virulent Sliver, Snake Cult Initiation vs Corpse Cur
It would be beneficial to have another set with poison so we could get some new and better answers other then Melira, Sylvok Outcast
Bolas can not control the Phyrexians. He knows this. And it is extremely unlikely that he would want to infect a world that he is effectively the God Emperor of with phyrexians.
---
Numquam evolutioni obstes. Solum conculceris.
Pascite draconem, evolvite aut morimini.
Winding Constrictor only works on you and things you control, so it's not so much "working well" as "Well okay you've killed yourself for some reason. Good game, I guess."
I was basically going to post the same thing. If there is poison counters in the set, I think a lot of people would be happy to see it done like these old cards and not bringing back infect. Plus, these cards seem to fit the theme of the block. One note, Leeches is on the reserved list.
BUWGRChilds PlayGRWUB
BUWGR Highlander GRWUB
UBSquee's Shapeshifting PetBU
BW Multiplayer Control WB
RG Changeling GR
UR Mana FlareRU
UMerfolkU
B MBMC B