Define 'real'? Disappearing Trick was just revealed, and there's lots of ways to use that for value.
There's plenty of ways to use it, but it's more synergistic with blink and ETB decks.
On one hand, it can't fit in decks as easily as Cancel, so the return to hand may be more of a cost.
On the other, I don't mind returning my Thriving Turtle to my hand to recycle some energy. Maybe even use the return effect as protection against a creature spell with a casting effect or something.
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DECKS:
Commander:
Aurelia the Warleader - Combat Tricks and Swarm
Oloro, Ageless Ascetic - Lifegain/Lifedrain Pillowfort
Trostani, Selesnya's Voice - Token Assault
Meren of Clan Nel Toth - Reanimator Value
Mizzix - Out of the Box Spellslinger
I think some decks will want Disappearing Trick, but bouncing a permanent is probably a drawback in a traditional control list, if one exists. I'd prefer some good instant speed card draw honestly; Void Shatter, Spell Shrivel, and Scatter to the Winds are all fine. I like Spell Shrivel the best since you don't have to strain your manabase too much to cast it and it's generally a hard counter.
Yes, it can work in your favor under the right circumstances, but that doesn't mean it isn't a hurdle to cast the card.
In an environment filled to the brim with Come Into Play Abilities, it is actually better than Cancel. Oh, wait, post Kaladesh standard will be filled with CitP abilities.
Also, we just got Insidious Will spoiled, which is probably one of the most versatile counterspells ever, as it can be used to copy or redirect instead depending on the situation, redirect that fireball back at their head. Opponent cast a spell that lets them draw four? Copy it.
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It's about time for the reserved list to die, for the sake of Vintage and Legacy (And Commander).
Yes, it can work in your favor under the right circumstances, but that doesn't mean it isn't a hurdle to cast the card.
In an environment filled to the brim with Come Into Play Abilities, it is actually better than Cancel. Oh, wait, post Kaladesh standard will be filled with CitP abilities.
Also, we just got Insidious Will spoiled, which is probably one of the most versatile counterspells ever, as it can be used to copy or redirect instead depending on the situation, redirect that fireball back at their head. Opponent cast a spell that lets them draw four? Copy it.
No it isn't. You're costing yourself tempo to pick up your ETB ability, and that's assuming you have something worth picking up on the battlefield. You're evaluating this under its best case scenario... and the best case scenario isn't even overly appealing.
Yes, it can work in your favor under the right circumstances, but that doesn't mean it isn't a hurdle to cast the card.
In an environment filled to the brim with Come Into Play Abilities, it is actually better than Cancel. Oh, wait, post Kaladesh standard will be filled with CitP abilities.
Also, we just got Insidious Will spoiled, which is probably one of the most versatile counterspells ever, as it can be used to copy or redirect instead depending on the situation, redirect that fireball back at their head. Opponent cast a spell that lets them draw four? Copy it.
No it isn't. You're costing yourself tempo to pick up your ETB ability, and that's assuming you have something worth picking up on the battlefield. You're evaluating this under its best case scenario... and the best case scenario isn't even overly appealing.
If you are playing tempo, sure. But if you are playing control, it is great. Do not underestimate the power of bouncing something with a come into play ability. Particularly not when said ability can net you three creatures, or remove one of your opponents creatures, or destroy an artifact/enchantment, ect. It is a good card.
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It's about time for the reserved list to die, for the sake of Vintage and Legacy (And Commander).
Yes, it can work in your favor under the right circumstances, but that doesn't mean it isn't a hurdle to cast the card.
In an environment filled to the brim with Come Into Play Abilities, it is actually better than Cancel. Oh, wait, post Kaladesh standard will be filled with CitP abilities.
Also, we just got Insidious Will spoiled, which is probably one of the most versatile counterspells ever, as it can be used to copy or redirect instead depending on the situation, redirect that fireball back at their head. Opponent cast a spell that lets them draw four? Copy it.
No it isn't. You're costing yourself tempo to pick up your ETB ability, and that's assuming you have something worth picking up on the battlefield. You're evaluating this under its best case scenario... and the best case scenario isn't even overly appealing.
If you are playing tempo, sure. But if you are playing control, it is great. Do not underestimate the power of bouncing something with a come into play ability. Particularly not when said ability can net you three creatures, or remove one of your opponents creatures, or destroy an artifact/enchantment, ect. It is a good card.
Tempo doesn't just matter in tempo decks. You're sacrificing board position to cast a counterspell and falling behind. And this arguably worse in control because control will often be bouncing a land to hand to cast this.
Yes, it can work in your favor under the right circumstances, but that doesn't mean it isn't a hurdle to cast the card.
In an environment filled to the brim with Come Into Play Abilities, it is actually better than Cancel. Oh, wait, post Kaladesh standard will be filled with CitP abilities.
Also, we just got Insidious Will spoiled, which is probably one of the most versatile counterspells ever, as it can be used to copy or redirect instead depending on the situation, redirect that fireball back at their head. Opponent cast a spell that lets them draw four? Copy it.
No it isn't. You're costing yourself tempo to pick up your ETB ability, and that's assuming you have something worth picking up on the battlefield. You're evaluating this under its best case scenario... and the best case scenario isn't even overly appealing.
If you are playing tempo, sure. But if you are playing control, it is great. Do not underestimate the power of bouncing something with a come into play ability. Particularly not when said ability can net you three creatures, or remove one of your opponents creatures, or destroy an artifact/enchantment, ect. It is a good card.
Tempo doesn't just matter in tempo decks. You're sacrificing board position to cast a counterspell and falling behind. And this arguably worse in control because control will often be bouncing a land to hand to cast this.
Except, if you bounce a CitP ability, then you do not lose tempo, indeed, if the CitP ability is some form of removal, it actually hurts your opponent more than you. And even if it isn't, with the sheer number of creatures in Kaladesh that produce one or more token creatures, then no tempo is lost at all. You are just arguing semantics without taking the entire set into consideration. Sure, in a vacuum is is technically worse than Cancel, but in a Standard environment in which Kaladesh is a part, it is very, very, good.
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It's about time for the reserved list to die, for the sake of Vintage and Legacy (And Commander).
In an environment filled to the brim with Come Into Play Abilities, it is actually better than Cancel. Oh, wait, post Kaladesh standard will be filled with CitP abilities.
Also, we just got Insidious Will spoiled, which is probably one of the most versatile counterspells ever, as it can be used to copy or redirect instead depending on the situation, redirect that fireball back at their head. Opponent cast a spell that lets them draw four? Copy it.
No it isn't. You're costing yourself tempo to pick up your ETB ability, and that's assuming you have something worth picking up on the battlefield. You're evaluating this under its best case scenario... and the best case scenario isn't even overly appealing.
If you are playing tempo, sure. But if you are playing control, it is great. Do not underestimate the power of bouncing something with a come into play ability. Particularly not when said ability can net you three creatures, or remove one of your opponents creatures, or destroy an artifact/enchantment, ect. It is a good card.
Tempo doesn't just matter in tempo decks. You're sacrificing board position to cast a counterspell and falling behind. And this arguably worse in control because control will often be bouncing a land to hand to cast this.
Except, if you bounce a CitP ability, then you do not lose tempo, indeed, if the CitP ability is some form of removal, it actually hurts your opponent more than you. And even if it isn't, with the sheer number of creatures in Kaladesh that produce one or more token creatures, then no tempo is lost at all. You are just arguing semantics without taking the entire set into consideration. Sure, in a vacuum is is technically worse than Cancel, but in a Standard environment in which Kaladesh is a part, it is very, very, good.
Most ETB abilities are stapled onto creatures. The reason the ability is worth a card is because of the fact that it comes with a body. So, yes, you lose battlefield presence to cast this card even under (most) favorable circumstances. You can recast what you have picked up the following turn, but you are spending that turn's resources to put it back into play.
How am I arguing semantics? I'm saying that this is a very real downside. It can occasionally net you value, but it requires an ideal setup. And when you don't have that ideal setup? It is worse than a card that is already unplayable in constructed.
No it isn't. You're costing yourself tempo to pick up your ETB ability, and that's assuming you have something worth picking up on the battlefield. You're evaluating this under its best case scenario... and the best case scenario isn't even overly appealing.
If you are playing tempo, sure. But if you are playing control, it is great. Do not underestimate the power of bouncing something with a come into play ability. Particularly not when said ability can net you three creatures, or remove one of your opponents creatures, or destroy an artifact/enchantment, ect. It is a good card.
Tempo doesn't just matter in tempo decks. You're sacrificing board position to cast a counterspell and falling behind. And this arguably worse in control because control will often be bouncing a land to hand to cast this.
Except, if you bounce a CitP ability, then you do not lose tempo, indeed, if the CitP ability is some form of removal, it actually hurts your opponent more than you. And even if it isn't, with the sheer number of creatures in Kaladesh that produce one or more token creatures, then no tempo is lost at all. You are just arguing semantics without taking the entire set into consideration. Sure, in a vacuum is is technically worse than Cancel, but in a Standard environment in which Kaladesh is a part, it is very, very, good.
Most ETB abilities are stapled onto creatures. The reason the ability is worth a card is because of the fact that it comes with a body. So, yes, you lose battlefield presence to cast this card even under (most) favorable circumstances. You can recast what you have picked up the following turn, but you are spending that turn's resources to put it back into play.
How am I arguing semantics? I'm saying that this is a very real downside. It can occasionally net you value, but it requires an ideal setup. And when you don't have that ideal setup? It is worse than a card that is already unplayable in constructed.
That is arguing semantics, from what we have seen of Kaladesh so far, bouncing your own creature to play it again if it has a CitP ability is a good thing. Particularly if that CitP ability will give you an advantage, and in Kaladesh it almost always does:
For example, with Era of Innovation in play, you can bounce a (cheap) artifact (say, one of the puzzleknots or Prophetic Prism), replay it the next time you have the opportunity to do so, and pay 1 to get 2 energy. Or, you could bounce Glint-Nest Crane, to dig yourself closer to an artifact when it returns to play. Or, a Thriving Turtle to increase your energy count.
And that's just the obvious combos in blue, add any of the other colors, and there are immense possibilities.
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It's about time for the reserved list to die, for the sake of Vintage and Legacy (And Commander).
I agree with jar here. Just because it's sometimes correct to use Cryptic Command to bounce your Snapcaster Mage doesn't make the mandatory bounce on this card an upside. You need an abundance of 2-drops with CITP abilities, because what else are you bouncing to cast this on T3? Even if you build for it, there will come a time when you need to counter something on T3 and had no T2 play, meaning you'll have to bounce a land. Blech. I understand that occasionally rebuying your Gearhulk in the late-game is pretty sweet, but you're not doing that until at least T7 without ramp. Also, having to recast your 6 CMC win condition, even when you get some incremental value from it, is a real cost.
Tempo decks may want this, but it seems like Essence Flux and Unsubstantiate accomplish most of what those decks want for less. I don't think this card gets there while we still have options like Void Shatter and Spell Shrivel, especially considering the exile rider on those cards is still pretty important.
Could be wrong, maybe counterbounce is great. We'll see soon.
I agree with jar here. Just because it's sometimes correct to use Cryptic Command to bounce your Snapcaster Mage doesn't make the mandatory bounce on this card an upside. You need an abundance of 2-drops with CITP abilities, because what else are you bouncing to cast this on T3? Even if you build for it, there will come a time when you need to counter something on T3 and had no T2 play, meaning you'll have to bounce a land. Blech. I understand that occasionally rebuying your Gearhulk in the late-game is pretty sweet, but you're not doing that until at least T7 without ramp. Also, having to recast your 6 CMC win condition, even when you get some incremental value from it, is a real cost.
Tempo decks may want this, but it seems like Essence Flux and Unsubstantiate accomplish most of what those decks want for less. I don't think this card gets there while we still have options like Void Shatter and Spell Shrivel, especially considering the exile rider on those cards is still pretty important.
Could be wrong, maybe counterbounce is great. We'll see soon.
In any format that is heavy in come into play abilities counterbounce, is by definition, good. Kaladesh is heavy in CitP abilities due to the fabricate keyword.
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It's about time for the reserved list to die, for the sake of Vintage and Legacy (And Commander).
In any format that is heavy in come into play abilities counterbounce, is by definition, good. Kaladesh is heavy in CitP abilities due to the fabricate keyword.
I agree. I don't have anything more to add other than what krishnath has already said - but I see this card as 'cancel with an upside' rather than 'cancel with a downside'.
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Rose tint my world, keep me safe from my trouble and pain.
Maybe even use the return effect as protection against a creature spell with a casting effect or something.
It's a shame Disappearing Act doesn't counter "up to" one target spell, then it would have that niche use as an extra-bad Call to Heel. My understanding is that you can't cast it without a target
In any format that is heavy in come into play abilities counterbounce, is by definition, good. Kaladesh is heavy in CitP abilities due to the fabricate keyword.
I agree. I don't have anything more to add other than what krishnath has already said - but I see this card as 'cancel with an upside' rather than 'cancel with a downside'.
If it said you may bounce something then it would be cancel with upside. As of now, it's cancel with something that will sometimes be an upside and sometimes be a downside. Control decks don't generally run that many non-land permanents, so there's a very real chance that they just won't be able to cast this spell without bouncing a land which is just terrible in any format where you can't play all of your spells for 2 or 3 mana, tops. The best chance this card has is in a tempo deck with a lot of etb abilities like Reflector Mage, Nebelgast Herald and Glint-Nest Crane. None of the cheap fabricate cards seem very good (are there even any at 2 cmc?) and the energy generators are okish if you can find something to do with all that energy. All in all, I think Essence Flux is going to be enough for decks that really want to abuse etb triggers and those decks are more likely to use Negate, Ceremonious Rejection, Dispel and other conditional counterspells. Maybe Void Shatter or Spell Shrivel if they really need a hard counter on turn 3.
In any format that is heavy in come into play abilities counterbounce, is by definition, good. Kaladesh is heavy in CitP abilities due to the fabricate keyword.
I agree. I don't have anything more to add other than what krishnath has already said - but I see this card as 'cancel with an upside' rather than 'cancel with a downside'.
If it said you may bounce something then it would be cancel with upside. As of now, it's cancel with something that will sometimes be an upside and sometimes be a downside. Control decks don't generally run that many non-land permanents, so there's a very real chance that they just won't be able to cast this spell without bouncing a land which is just terrible in any format where you can't play all of your spells for 2 or 3 mana, tops. The best chance this card has is in a tempo deck with a lot of etb abilities like Reflector Mage, Nebelgast Herald and Glint-Nest Crane. None of the cheap fabricate cards seem very good (are there even any at 2 cmc?) and the energy generators are okish if you can find something to do with all that energy. All in all, I think Essence Flux is going to be enough for decks that really want to abuse etb triggers and those decks are more likely to use Negate, Ceremonious Rejection, Dispel and other conditional counterspells. Maybe Void Shatter or Spell Shrivel if they really need a hard counter on turn 3.
In a standard environment in which Kaladesh is legal, it is strictly better than Cancel due to all the Come into Play abilities that exist in the set/block.
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It's about time for the reserved list to die, for the sake of Vintage and Legacy (And Commander).
In a standard environment in which Kaladesh is legal, it is strictly better than Cancel due to all the Come into Play abilities that exist in the set/block.
Not to mention all the ETB stuff in Shadows over Innistrad. Or all the ETB stuff in Battle for Zendikar. Hmm, wait, maybe there's a pattern here?
It's not even just creatures! Prophetic Prism and Metalspinner's Puzzleknot are easily slottable cards for control. Glassblower's Puzzleknot is another solid choice for control if you care about energy. Maybe you'd rather have a draw spell, but these gives you synergy on your counters and creates for interesting deck building challenges that are the reason I play Standard. If I wanted 'strictly better most efficient every time' I'd play Modern.
Even if you personally wouldn't do it - the point remains that it's easily enough abusable that it should be priced as an upside NOT as a downside because otherwise it'd get abused in the decks that do care about it.
In any format that is heavy in come into play abilities counterbounce, is by definition, good. Kaladesh is heavy in CitP abilities due to the fabricate keyword.
I agree. I don't have anything more to add other than what krishnath has already said - but I see this card as 'cancel with an upside' rather than 'cancel with a downside'.
If it said you may bounce something then it would be cancel with upside. As of now, it's cancel with something that will sometimes be an upside and sometimes be a downside. Control decks don't generally run that many non-land permanents, so there's a very real chance that they just won't be able to cast this spell without bouncing a land which is just terrible in any format where you can't play all of your spells for 2 or 3 mana, tops. The best chance this card has is in a tempo deck with a lot of etb abilities like Reflector Mage, Nebelgast Herald and Glint-Nest Crane. None of the cheap fabricate cards seem very good (are there even any at 2 cmc?) and the energy generators are okish if you can find something to do with all that energy. All in all, I think Essence Flux is going to be enough for decks that really want to abuse etb triggers and those decks are more likely to use Negate, Ceremonious Rejection, Dispel and other conditional counterspells. Maybe Void Shatter or Spell Shrivel if they really need a hard counter on turn 3.
In a standard environment in which Kaladesh is legal, it is strictly better than Cancel due to all the Come into Play abilities that exist in the set/block.
Good to see that people still constantly misuse "strictly better". Tell me, if you have no permanents on the board except 3 lands, and your opponent casts a spell that you need to counter, would you rather have a Cancel or a Disappearing Act? Conditionally better does not mean strictly better.
This card strikes me as useful in the right deck, but quite narrow in its application. It's not really comparable to Cancel, they serve different purposes.
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Loosing clash of wills and ojutai's command is really hurting....
Reading it that's say you have to control the same card?
Sorry I wasn't clear enough, I thought my two example where enough.
I was hoping for a remand? Or something as powerful as ojutai...
In a format that will be defined by come into play abilities, including one tied to a keyword, Disappearing Trick will be quite good.
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Numquam evolutioni obstes. Solum conculceris.
Pascite draconem, evolvite aut morimini.
There's plenty of ways to use it, but it's more synergistic with blink and ETB decks.
On one hand, it can't fit in decks as easily as Cancel, so the return to hand may be more of a cost.
On the other, I don't mind returning my Thriving Turtle to my hand to recycle some energy. Maybe even use the return effect as protection against a creature spell with a casting effect or something.
Commander:
Aurelia the Warleader - Combat Tricks and Swarm
Oloro, Ageless Ascetic - Lifegain/Lifedrain Pillowfort
Trostani, Selesnya's Voice - Token Assault
Meren of Clan Nel Toth - Reanimator Value
Mizzix - Out of the Box Spellslinger
Standard:
RB Madness Vamps
Casual:
Formerly Modern Elfball
Yes, it can work in your favor under the right circumstances, but that doesn't mean it isn't a hurdle to cast the card.
UR Blue-Red Control
Modern:
UBR Grixis Control
UWR Jeskai Control
In an environment filled to the brim with Come Into Play Abilities, it is actually better than Cancel. Oh, wait, post Kaladesh standard will be filled with CitP abilities.
Also, we just got Insidious Will spoiled, which is probably one of the most versatile counterspells ever, as it can be used to copy or redirect instead depending on the situation, redirect that fireball back at their head. Opponent cast a spell that lets them draw four? Copy it.
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Numquam evolutioni obstes. Solum conculceris.
Pascite draconem, evolvite aut morimini.
In the current environment, it's not bad.
Happy Happy happy
No it isn't. You're costing yourself tempo to pick up your ETB ability, and that's assuming you have something worth picking up on the battlefield. You're evaluating this under its best case scenario... and the best case scenario isn't even overly appealing.
UR Blue-Red Control
Modern:
UBR Grixis Control
UWR Jeskai Control
If you are playing tempo, sure. But if you are playing control, it is great. Do not underestimate the power of bouncing something with a come into play ability. Particularly not when said ability can net you three creatures, or remove one of your opponents creatures, or destroy an artifact/enchantment, ect. It is a good card.
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Numquam evolutioni obstes. Solum conculceris.
Pascite draconem, evolvite aut morimini.
Tempo doesn't just matter in tempo decks. You're sacrificing board position to cast a counterspell and falling behind. And this arguably worse in control because control will often be bouncing a land to hand to cast this.
UR Blue-Red Control
Modern:
UBR Grixis Control
UWR Jeskai Control
Except, if you bounce a CitP ability, then you do not lose tempo, indeed, if the CitP ability is some form of removal, it actually hurts your opponent more than you. And even if it isn't, with the sheer number of creatures in Kaladesh that produce one or more token creatures, then no tempo is lost at all. You are just arguing semantics without taking the entire set into consideration. Sure, in a vacuum is is technically worse than Cancel, but in a Standard environment in which Kaladesh is a part, it is very, very, good.
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Numquam evolutioni obstes. Solum conculceris.
Pascite draconem, evolvite aut morimini.
Most ETB abilities are stapled onto creatures. The reason the ability is worth a card is because of the fact that it comes with a body. So, yes, you lose battlefield presence to cast this card even under (most) favorable circumstances. You can recast what you have picked up the following turn, but you are spending that turn's resources to put it back into play.
How am I arguing semantics? I'm saying that this is a very real downside. It can occasionally net you value, but it requires an ideal setup. And when you don't have that ideal setup? It is worse than a card that is already unplayable in constructed.
UR Blue-Red Control
Modern:
UBR Grixis Control
UWR Jeskai Control
That is arguing semantics, from what we have seen of Kaladesh so far, bouncing your own creature to play it again if it has a CitP ability is a good thing. Particularly if that CitP ability will give you an advantage, and in Kaladesh it almost always does:
For example, with Era of Innovation in play, you can bounce a (cheap) artifact (say, one of the puzzleknots or Prophetic Prism), replay it the next time you have the opportunity to do so, and pay 1 to get 2 energy. Or, you could bounce Glint-Nest Crane, to dig yourself closer to an artifact when it returns to play. Or, a Thriving Turtle to increase your energy count.
And that's just the obvious combos in blue, add any of the other colors, and there are immense possibilities.
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Numquam evolutioni obstes. Solum conculceris.
Pascite draconem, evolvite aut morimini.
Tempo decks may want this, but it seems like Essence Flux and Unsubstantiate accomplish most of what those decks want for less. I don't think this card gets there while we still have options like Void Shatter and Spell Shrivel, especially considering the exile rider on those cards is still pretty important.
Could be wrong, maybe counterbounce is great. We'll see soon.
In any format that is heavy in come into play abilities counterbounce, is by definition, good. Kaladesh is heavy in CitP abilities due to the fabricate keyword.
---
Numquam evolutioni obstes. Solum conculceris.
Pascite draconem, evolvite aut morimini.
I agree. I don't have anything more to add other than what krishnath has already said - but I see this card as 'cancel with an upside' rather than 'cancel with a downside'.
If it said you may bounce something then it would be cancel with upside. As of now, it's cancel with something that will sometimes be an upside and sometimes be a downside. Control decks don't generally run that many non-land permanents, so there's a very real chance that they just won't be able to cast this spell without bouncing a land which is just terrible in any format where you can't play all of your spells for 2 or 3 mana, tops. The best chance this card has is in a tempo deck with a lot of etb abilities like Reflector Mage, Nebelgast Herald and Glint-Nest Crane. None of the cheap fabricate cards seem very good (are there even any at 2 cmc?) and the energy generators are okish if you can find something to do with all that energy. All in all, I think Essence Flux is going to be enough for decks that really want to abuse etb triggers and those decks are more likely to use Negate, Ceremonious Rejection, Dispel and other conditional counterspells. Maybe Void Shatter or Spell Shrivel if they really need a hard counter on turn 3.
In a standard environment in which Kaladesh is legal, it is strictly better than Cancel due to all the Come into Play abilities that exist in the set/block.
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Numquam evolutioni obstes. Solum conculceris.
Pascite draconem, evolvite aut morimini.
Not to mention all the ETB stuff in Shadows over Innistrad. Or all the ETB stuff in Battle for Zendikar. Hmm, wait, maybe there's a pattern here?
It's not even just creatures! Prophetic Prism and Metalspinner's Puzzleknot are easily slottable cards for control. Glassblower's Puzzleknot is another solid choice for control if you care about energy. Maybe you'd rather have a draw spell, but these gives you synergy on your counters and creates for interesting deck building challenges that are the reason I play Standard. If I wanted 'strictly better most efficient every time' I'd play Modern.
Even if you personally wouldn't do it - the point remains that it's easily enough abusable that it should be priced as an upside NOT as a downside because otherwise it'd get abused in the decks that do care about it.
Good to see that people still constantly misuse "strictly better". Tell me, if you have no permanents on the board except 3 lands, and your opponent casts a spell that you need to counter, would you rather have a Cancel or a Disappearing Act? Conditionally better does not mean strictly better.
This card strikes me as useful in the right deck, but quite narrow in its application. It's not really comparable to Cancel, they serve different purposes.