I think that a fixed version of the Reassembling Skeleton ability would be good here, one that triggers when the creature dies. I do basically agree with you on the Reassembling Skeleton ability. So, "Regeneration X (When this creature dies, if it wasn't sacrificed to pay a cost, you may pay X. If you do, return it from your graveyard to the battlefield tapped. Being exiled doesn't count as dying.)" And yes, I would actually include that last bit in the reminder text, just so that NOBODY gets it wrong. And you can even call it "regeneration" because technically that's not the same as "regenerate".
I would be ok with regen getting replaced with the Reassembling Skeleton ability. More intuitive for newer players.
The problem with that is that renegeration must be used before the creature dies, that ability instead can be used any time.
There is quite a big difference there.
The timing is what makes regeneration confusing and non-intuitive. Flavor-wise, how can you regenerate before the damage has been done?
The current form of regen could be renamed "Shield" or "Barrier" and would make more sense: it prevents the damage before it happens, rather than healing afterwards.
As a kid, I thought for years that you get prompted to regenerate (as a triggered ability, I guess) when the creature would go to the graveyard. The fact that it taps upon regeneration for no apparent reason other than a fair drawback is also very unintuitive. Regeneration is a ghost from a more complicated era of the game, but I hope they don`t cut it completely. I`m fine with it being a rarely used ability, but it should have a place in the game.
I`m not fond of the Reassembling Skeleton ability. It`s way too easy to break, which means that it will only be very expensive and/or only on weak creatures. It`s also a dumber ability, if that makes sense - it doesn`t introduce any difficult choices. Regeneration makes you either wait to play the creature until you have regen mana up, or give your opponent a window to kill it. You also have to consider if you need to hold up mana to regenerate it once or twice in case your opponent doubles up on removal. Your opponent can also use removal to tap it and attack through it. All in all, I think that the gameplay choices that regeneration brings to the game are excellent, but it sure is unintuitive. So yeah, I`d love to see them bring it out on a few creatures per block.
What if they had simply changed it to "remove all damage from this creature" at some point? It's a lot less powerful, but it's also a lot less rule intensive, and only takes a few words to write out. Not only that, but it feels like reacting to something rather than preempting it.
Dridge SkeletonsB
Creature-Skeleton B: Reconstitute Dridge Skeletons (remove all damage from it).
1/1
seems like a fine card. It may be a tad confusing on trample.
What if they had simply changed it to "remove all damage from this creature" at some point? It's a lot less powerful, but it's also a lot less rule intensive, and only takes a few words to write out. Not only that, but it feels like reacting to something rather than preempting it.
Dridge SkeletonsB
Creature-Skeleton B: Reconstitute Dridge Skeletons (remove all damage from it).
1/1
seems like a fine card. It may be a tad confusing on trample.
Under the current rules, there is no time that a player has priority after a creature has taken lethal damage but before the creature is placed in the graveyard. This ability, on a 1 toughness creature, would do absolutely nothing. Before the creature took damage there would be nothing to remove; after the creature took damage there would be no creature anymore. It would take adding a new 'timing bubble' to the rules (just like the ones they removed ~20 years ago!) to have a point at which abilities could be activated after a creature has taken lethal damage but before it dies to it.
Regeneration has always a bit of a rules nightmare in terms of actual wording of the rule, despite it being very simple in concept. Now, with the changes they have made in the past few years concerning damage and stack rules, it's become even more so... as in the regeneration "shell" colloquialism.
As someone who has played since the mid 90s, I'm sad to see it go, but I understand why they're doing it.
What if they made a creature 'dying' and thus moving to the graveyard from the battlefield a stack-based effect, so that you could respond to it by activating regeneration, and prevent the death, but do so after the thing dealt a destruction or damage to 0 toughness thing. It wouldn't be an ability, so it couldn't be countered that things that counter abilities, although it would be prevented by some things that remove everything (rather than just spells or abilities) from the stack or end the turn without stuff on the stack going off and whatnot.
Could that work as a rules change that would cause regeneration to work and be easier to make sense and word?
It's a shame people never understand the rules like regeneration is exceedingly simple to me, but to new players? Nah they don't get that it's basically a shield that gets popped when lethal damage is dealt, the creature is tapped, and damage removed. The creature never goes to the graveyard.
Regeneration could easily be gone though just like protection and a lot of other mechanics like banding.
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"Regeneration" is too resonant of a concept for WotC to abandon it.
I expect them to eventually change the rules for it and reintroduce it as a non-evergreen keyword. See: madness.
I give it three years.
Madness was never evergreen. There has yet to be a mechanic that returned at all after being dropped as an evergreen except protection becoming deciduous and that was announced as part of the change, whereas with this there has been no such announcement.
I highly doubt we will see Regeneration again. If there was a rules change that would make it better, they would have done that instead because I highly doubt anyone in this thread could come up with something they couldn't.
So it comes down to damage not on the stack anymore? No time for fast effects after blocking?
Regeneration was not complicated and seemed easy enough UNTIL they changed the rules, then it became confusing.
Same with all the effects like Giant Growth as well? Have to cast that first instead of waiting for blockers and damage?
So it comes down to damage not on the stack anymore? No time for fast effects after blocking?
Regeneration was not complicated and seemed easy enough UNTIL they changed the rules, then it became confusing.
Same with all the effects like Giant Growth as well? Have to cast that first instead of waiting for blockers and damage?
W
You can respond to blockers being declared, you can also respond to attackers being declared.
Once you assign damage from attacking and blocking creatures there's a period after damage where you can cast spells and use abilities (where abilities that trigger when a creature deals damage happen), but by that point all creatures that died are dead.
And before anyone says 'gee, wasn't it better when damage used the stack' you're wrong and no it wasn't. It had its own raft of issues including Deathtouch and Lifelink being meaningless.
Probably means we can expect more kill the unkillable effects and exile removal in the future.
That would be hilarious, as we'd be longing wistfully for the days of yore when we had simple and elegant wordings like "can't be regenerated" as our removal qualifiers. Is it time to dust off "Bury" perhaps?
Will that mean that golgari gets indestructable? Currently that effect feels totally white & very strong.
I very much doubt that, as you say the effect has been pretty firmly rooted as a primarily white one from the start. As is, incidentally, removal that exiles.
My point is that the removal of Regenerate (and "can't be regenerated"-clauses from removal) in favor of Indestructible (and removal which exiles) doubly favors W over B, and to a lesser extent G. This is a notable power balance issue, and that's a metric in which W certainly doesn't need to be any stronger than it already is.
I swear, there's some people at WotC with deeply embedded fetishes for un-interactive games, Eldrazi and the color W. And they need to be fired, like 4 years ago.
Given we are getting more Indestructible/Hexproof until end of turn/during specific conditions I am not sure about your point, it means keywords that were in many ways entirely non-interactive are now at least marginally interactive. Without having to carry a specific hoser like Bonds of Mortality or Arcane Lighthouse.
Indestructible's flavor in White is 'shiny pure goodness too good to be smashed in the face.'
Indestructible's new flavor in Black is 'well, I mean, if you wanna punch it in the face it'll just get back up again anyway.' If they wanted to add some of the flavor from Regenerate back they'd add 'tap this creature' so that if you do this to make it survive a board wipe or a spot removal it isn't a blocker as it reassembles.
Green's new flavor is like black, but less 'it's already dead' and more 'the wounds just heal as you make them.' Here honestly a damage prevention 'shield' would work? If it wasn't for the odd timing rules about effects during combat damage.
Other than the flavor thing, activated regen and activated indestructible often play similarly. Sure there's the tapping thing but that's also weird and unintuitive. Indestructible static ability isn't much different than mossbridge troll either now that "can't be regenerated" was basically eliminated. This isn't much of a change other than flavor on trolls. Really, it didn't make sense on skeletons which were the main recipients. Activated indestructible also isn't any stronger than the cost attached.
I always liked the "tap and remove from combat" aspect. It was very evocative of the implied flavor.
The creature is removed from combat because they stopped fighting to focus on regenerating.
They become tapped because the process is physically exhausting, leaving them unable to do anything else.
This is the Melvin in me, but there's a "richness" in the way regeneration plays that allows for unexpected and clever interactions that the proposed replacements can't duplicate.
They ccould have made it similar to persist/Undying but instead o +1/+1 counter and -1/-1 counter they could use a diferent type of counter that would prevent abuse and make it less likelly to combo.Example:
Regen(When this creature dies, if it had no Fatigue counters on it, return it to the battlefield under its owner's control tapped with a fatigue counter on it.)
Maybe make it better by removing the counter in some way like at the end of the turn or something like that
I hope they reprint Regeneration again someday. At least they should print it in supplemental sets like Masters sets and conspiracy sets. if not, then there will never be a place for them to reprint damnation. The "Can't be regenerated" clause in it would be completely useless in any set it is printed in if they aren't willing to at least print it in the supplemental sets.
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I hope they reprint Regeneration again someday. At least they should print it in supplemental sets like Masters sets and conspiracy sets. if not, then there will never be a place for them to reprint damnation. The "Can't be regenerated" clause in it would be completely useless in any set it is printed in if they aren't willing to at least print it in the supplemental sets.
That is always how that's worked, there probably won't be new cards with Regeneration, but we can see it again like other 'not being reprinted' terms (Storm, Transmute, etc).
Wrath of God and Damnation can see reprints in supplemental sets without a problem, the main thing keeping them out of standard is being CMC4, not saying 'can't be regenerated.'
I hope they reprint Regeneration again someday. At least they should print it in supplemental sets like Masters sets and conspiracy sets. if not, then there will never be a place for them to reprint damnation. The "Can't be regenerated" clause in it would be completely useless in any set it is printed in if they aren't willing to at least print it in the supplemental sets.
That is always how that's worked, there probably won't be new cards with Regeneration, but we can see it again like other 'not being reprinted' terms (Storm, Transmute, etc).
Wrath of God and Damnation can see reprints in supplemental sets without a problem, the main thing keeping them out of standard is being CMC4, not saying 'can't be regenerated.'
If there are no cards that say "regenerate" in standard, then it would be as pointless printing those 4 CMC spells as it would be printing something that says it removes the "Bands with other" ability in a standard set. Like my post implies, I hope they are willing to print them in supplemental sets. Also, hopefully 4 CMC wrath spells aren't gone forever in standard sets. I dislike how things seem to always be added to the too good for standard list. I miss my 1 CMC mana dorks, my lightning bolts, 4 cmc wraths, and counterspell.
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All your base are belong to us!
RIP Batman guy. I hope somebody picks up the slack now that you are gone. Sick children need their Batman.
Regeneration is uniquely different than indestructible and flavorful. It just needs to be reworked.
If you look at a newbie how they "assume" what regerneration does, its something comes back from the graveyard.
Most will think the creatures dies and you pay "regeneration" to get it back in play.
This idea further makes them question how it works with sacrifice, how it works with exile, etc. etc.
----
Regeneration in itself was flavourwise coupled with trolls and the ability to survive damage.
Its still very abstract and has so many nitpicks in magic rules that its a terrible ability, but a very flavourful name.
The fact its an activated ability that produces a "shield" that has no visual representation is terrible enough. WotC avoids that , and its a good thing they do (as mechanics that have a natural intuitive visual representation are simply superior in actual gameplay).
----
Persistent and Undying are much more what Regeneration could actually be.
If the creature dies somehow, it comes back ; THATS what regeneration is in most newbies eyes and its pretty simplistic (lets ignore the counters interactions for that, which again make it more complicated than it needs to be).
----
A very basic form that works like Persistent/Undying and doesnt use counters would probably be best.
But you cant just get the creature back immediatly, as that would be plain overpowered (way too easy combos) , so lets say it returns at the end of turn.
Problem solved, its very easy and its flavourful, and it would just be a always-on ability , no activation needed.
----
That said, regeneration wont return, if theres a way to make the design of a card with indestructible it almost always covers what regeneration would do, just way simpler.
What if they made a creature 'dying' and thus moving to the graveyard from the battlefield a stack-based effect, so that you could respond to it by activating regeneration, and prevent the death, but do so after the thing dealt a destruction or damage to 0 toughness thing. It wouldn't be an ability, so it couldn't be countered that things that counter abilities, although it would be prevented by some things that remove everything (rather than just spells or abilities) from the stack or end the turn without stuff on the stack going off and whatnot.
Could that work as a rules change that would cause regeneration to work and be easier to make sense and word?
Unfortunately, having creatures going into the graveyard being a stack based effect is exactly why they changed the rules. Cards like Mogg Fanatic were having their abilities abused for too long, trading and pinging while it was legally correct, it wasn't the original intent.
All of you folks complaining about Regeneration not being used: They can template something new that avoids some of the rules confusion easily. For example: "Recover X (If this creature takes lethal damage and would die, you can spend X instead. If you do, erase all damage on this creature. If you do not, destroy this creature."
What if they made a creature 'dying' and thus moving to the graveyard from the battlefield a stack-based effect, so that you could respond to it by activating regeneration, and prevent the death, but do so after the thing dealt a destruction or damage to 0 toughness thing. It wouldn't be an ability, so it couldn't be countered that things that counter abilities, although it would be prevented by some things that remove everything (rather than just spells or abilities) from the stack or end the turn without stuff on the stack going off and whatnot.
Could that work as a rules change that would cause regeneration to work and be easier to make sense and word?
Unfortunately, having creatures going into the graveyard being a stack based effect is exactly why they changed the rules. Cards like Mogg Fanatic were having their abilities abused for too long, trading and pinging while it was legally correct, it wasn't the original intent.
Maybe they could patch that by having a rule that creatures on the way to the graveyard based on stack stuff can't be sacrificed as part of ability costs?
All of you folks complaining about Regeneration not being used: They can template something new that avoids some of the rules confusion easily. For example: "Recover X (If this creature takes lethal damage and would die, you can spend X instead. If you do, erase all damage on this creature. If you do not, destroy this creature."
But they have already specified that they are going to be simply expanding the use of granting temporary indestructible. There won't be such a keyword.
They will probably do individual one-off cards that use some other kinds of regeneration-esque protection effects, but that's about it of what we can expect.
If they could make morph standard legal and have that be "non confusing" to new players, I can't see why someone couldn't grasp regenerate.
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Dridge Skeletons B
Creature-Skeleton
B: Reconstitute Dridge Skeletons (remove all damage from it).
1/1
seems like a fine card. It may be a tad confusing on trample.
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Under the current rules, there is no time that a player has priority after a creature has taken lethal damage but before the creature is placed in the graveyard. This ability, on a 1 toughness creature, would do absolutely nothing. Before the creature took damage there would be nothing to remove; after the creature took damage there would be no creature anymore. It would take adding a new 'timing bubble' to the rules (just like the ones they removed ~20 years ago!) to have a point at which abilities could be activated after a creature has taken lethal damage but before it dies to it.
As someone who has played since the mid 90s, I'm sad to see it go, but I understand why they're doing it.
Could that work as a rules change that would cause regeneration to work and be easier to make sense and word?
Regeneration could easily be gone though just like protection and a lot of other mechanics like banding.
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"Regeneration" is too resonant of a concept for WotC to abandon it.
I expect them to eventually change the rules for it and reintroduce it as a non-evergreen keyword. See: madness.
I give it three years.
Madness was never evergreen. There has yet to be a mechanic that returned at all after being dropped as an evergreen except protection becoming deciduous and that was announced as part of the change, whereas with this there has been no such announcement.
I highly doubt we will see Regeneration again. If there was a rules change that would make it better, they would have done that instead because I highly doubt anyone in this thread could come up with something they couldn't.
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Regeneration was not complicated and seemed easy enough UNTIL they changed the rules, then it became confusing.
Same with all the effects like Giant Growth as well? Have to cast that first instead of waiting for blockers and damage?
W
Once you assign damage from attacking and blocking creatures there's a period after damage where you can cast spells and use abilities (where abilities that trigger when a creature deals damage happen), but by that point all creatures that died are dead.
And before anyone says 'gee, wasn't it better when damage used the stack' you're wrong and no it wasn't. It had its own raft of issues including Deathtouch and Lifelink being meaningless.
Indestructible's flavor in White is 'shiny pure goodness too good to be smashed in the face.'
Indestructible's new flavor in Black is 'well, I mean, if you wanna punch it in the face it'll just get back up again anyway.' If they wanted to add some of the flavor from Regenerate back they'd add 'tap this creature' so that if you do this to make it survive a board wipe or a spot removal it isn't a blocker as it reassembles.
Green's new flavor is like black, but less 'it's already dead' and more 'the wounds just heal as you make them.' Here honestly a damage prevention 'shield' would work? If it wasn't for the odd timing rules about effects during combat damage.
The creature is removed from combat because they stopped fighting to focus on regenerating.
They become tapped because the process is physically exhausting, leaving them unable to do anything else.
This is the Melvin in me, but there's a "richness" in the way regeneration plays that allows for unexpected and clever interactions that the proposed replacements can't duplicate.
Regen(When this creature dies, if it had no Fatigue counters on it, return it to the battlefield under its owner's control tapped with a fatigue counter on it.)
Maybe make it better by removing the counter in some way like at the end of the turn or something like that
RIP Batman guy. I hope somebody picks up the slack now that you are gone. Sick children need their Batman.
Wrath of God and Damnation can see reprints in supplemental sets without a problem, the main thing keeping them out of standard is being CMC4, not saying 'can't be regenerated.'
If there are no cards that say "regenerate" in standard, then it would be as pointless printing those 4 CMC spells as it would be printing something that says it removes the "Bands with other" ability in a standard set. Like my post implies, I hope they are willing to print them in supplemental sets. Also, hopefully 4 CMC wrath spells aren't gone forever in standard sets. I dislike how things seem to always be added to the too good for standard list. I miss my 1 CMC mana dorks, my lightning bolts, 4 cmc wraths, and counterspell.
RIP Batman guy. I hope somebody picks up the slack now that you are gone. Sick children need their Batman.
If you look at a newbie how they "assume" what regerneration does, its something comes back from the graveyard.
Most will think the creatures dies and you pay "regeneration" to get it back in play.
This idea further makes them question how it works with sacrifice, how it works with exile, etc. etc.
----
Regeneration in itself was flavourwise coupled with trolls and the ability to survive damage.
Its still very abstract and has so many nitpicks in magic rules that its a terrible ability, but a very flavourful name.
The fact its an activated ability that produces a "shield" that has no visual representation is terrible enough. WotC avoids that , and its a good thing they do (as mechanics that have a natural intuitive visual representation are simply superior in actual gameplay).
----
Persistent and Undying are much more what Regeneration could actually be.
If the creature dies somehow, it comes back ; THATS what regeneration is in most newbies eyes and its pretty simplistic (lets ignore the counters interactions for that, which again make it more complicated than it needs to be).
----
A very basic form that works like Persistent/Undying and doesnt use counters would probably be best.
But you cant just get the creature back immediatly, as that would be plain overpowered (way too easy combos) , so lets say it returns at the end of turn.
Problem solved, its very easy and its flavourful, and it would just be a always-on ability , no activation needed.
----
That said, regeneration wont return, if theres a way to make the design of a card with indestructible it almost always covers what regeneration would do, just way simpler.
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Unfortunately, having creatures going into the graveyard being a stack based effect is exactly why they changed the rules. Cards like Mogg Fanatic were having their abilities abused for too long, trading and pinging while it was legally correct, it wasn't the original intent.
Maybe they could patch that by having a rule that creatures on the way to the graveyard based on stack stuff can't be sacrificed as part of ability costs?
But they have already specified that they are going to be simply expanding the use of granting temporary indestructible. There won't be such a keyword.
They will probably do individual one-off cards that use some other kinds of regeneration-esque protection effects, but that's about it of what we can expect.
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