Maybe too early to make conclusions, but as we already know, last Standard block, SOI, has zero cards with regeneration. Regeneration always was a problem mechanic (or it's just for me?), so I guess, will we see regeneration again as often as other evergreen mechanics or Wizards finally decided to drop it (and maybe replace with something new)?
I like regeneration, but there is some overlap with temporary indestructibility, which they've been using a lot. Originally, indestructibility was sort of sacred, only used for darksteel and divinity, but now you see it on dogs.
And it's also much more confusing. New players think it revives the creature from the graveyard, or, once they learn how it really works, they think it can be used to tap down an opposing creature.
Maybe if they just came up with a more intuitive way to template the reminder text, it would work better. Right now it's kind of awkward-sounding.
Regeneration is currently deciduous. Along with Protection, it's a mechanic they're eager to replace. Another wasted name, along with Rampage and Haunt.
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MTGS Wikia Article about "New World Order"
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
PSA to everyone who keeps forgetting about the Reserved List:
You're on a website dedicated to talking about MtG. You're only a few keystrokes away from finding out what cards are on the Reserved List. You're also only a few keystrokes away from finding out why some cards on the Reserved List got foil printings in FtV, as Judge promos, or whatnot, as well as why that won't happen again. Stop doing this.
I would be ok with regen getting replaced with the Reassembling Skeleton ability. More intuitive for newer players.
The problem with that is that renegeration must be used before the creature dies, that ability instead can be used any time.
There is quite a big difference there.
The timing is what makes regeneration confusing and non-intuitive. Flavor-wise, how can you regenerate before the damage has been done?
The current form of regen could be renamed "Shield" or "Barrier" and would make more sense: it prevents the damage before it happens, rather than healing afterwards.
The Reassembling Skeleton ability is dangerous. It is what a lot of people assume regen does, though. I hate it as a judge since it's a mechanic that a lot of 20+ year players play wrong.
I would be ok with regen getting replaced with the Reassembling Skeleton ability. More intuitive for newer players.
The problem with that is that renegeration must be used before the creature dies, that ability instead can be used any time.
There is quite a big difference there.
The timing is what makes regeneration confusing and non-intuitive. Flavor-wise, how can you regenerate before the damage has been done?
The current form of regen could be renamed "Shield" or "Barrier" and would make more sense: it prevents the damage before it happens, rather than healing afterwards.
As a kid, I thought for years that you get prompted to regenerate (as a triggered ability, I guess) when the creature would go to the graveyard. The fact that it taps upon regeneration for no apparent reason other than a fair drawback is also very unintuitive. Regeneration is a ghost from a more complicated era of the game, but I hope they don`t cut it completely. I`m fine with it being a rarely used ability, but it should have a place in the game.
I`m not fond of the Reassembling Skeleton ability. It`s way too easy to break, which means that it will only be very expensive and/or only on weak creatures. It`s also a dumber ability, if that makes sense - it doesn`t introduce any difficult choices. Regeneration makes you either wait to play the creature until you have regen mana up, or give your opponent a window to kill it. You also have to consider if you need to hold up mana to regenerate it once or twice in case your opponent doubles up on removal. Your opponent can also use removal to tap it and attack through it. All in all, I think that the gameplay choices that regeneration brings to the game are excellent, but it sure is unintuitive. So yeah, I`d love to see them bring it out on a few creatures per block.
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When I hit my 3000 post mark, I'm gone for good.
Stay reasonable, be mindful of your expectations and don't feed the trolls.
Regeneration confused me first time when my friend activated Dimir House Guard ability with sorcery speed to sacrifice some dudes. Took a time to understand how "regeneration shield" works.
As a kid, I thought for years that you get prompted to regenerate (as a triggered ability, I guess) when the creature would go to the graveyard. The fact that it taps upon regeneration for no apparent reason other than a fair drawback is also very unintuitive. Regeneration is a ghost from a more complicated era of the game, but I hope they don`t cut it completely. I`m fine with it being a rarely used ability, but it should have a place in the game.
That is actually how it worked pre-sixth edition. Regeneration was one of the abilities that got *more* confusing after the 6th-edition change.
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It's about time for the reserved list to die, for the sake of Vintage and Legacy (And Commander).
I like regeneration, but there is some overlap with temporary indestructibility, which they've been using a lot. Originally, indestructibility was sort of sacred, only used for darksteel and divinity, but now you see it on dogs.
And it's also much more confusing. New players think it revives the creature from the graveyard, or, once they learn how it really works, they think it can be used to tap down an opposing creature.
Maybe if they just came up with a more intuitive way to template the reminder text, it would work better. Right now it's kind of awkward-sounding.
The name came about in pre-Sixth days, when you would regenerate a creature as it died. (Back then, you could also regenerate a creature with 0 toughness; it would die again right away, though.) I assume it was that way to make mana burn still relevant.
The absence of it in SOI is a pretty huge tipoff, though. Regenerate mainly stayed around this long for the flavor of "zombies don't die". Indestructible is much easier to grok, and does about the same thing; the only difference is regenerated creatures being removed from combat and tapped if they weren't tapped already, and the regenerate shield only activates once.
@flaming infinity: For the Reassembling Skeleton ability, maybe an "Activate this ability only if CARDNAME died this turn." clause?
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Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
The Reassembling Skeleton ability is dangerous. It is what a lot of people assume regen does, though. I hate it as a judge since it's a mechanic that a lot of 20+ year players play wrong.
How does anyone get it wrong? Seems to make sense to me.
Quite happy about this. Now to replace Maro with someone who does not want to make standard a combat and planeswalker obsessed mid range format so that I can play it again.....
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People with belligerent signatures are trying to compensate for something....
I am confused on what exactly the confusion is. Haha
How did it work pre 6th?
How does it work now?
What about it is counterintuitive?
What was the problem with the ability?
How were players doing it wrong?
When I played in the 90s, will-o-wisp and drudge skeletons were must use as infinite blockers. The way we did regeneration was the way it was written in the 4th strter deck rule book.
Finding an old fourth starter.............a aha.....yeah seems pretty easy to get.
You block their creature then regenerate it. It taps and doesn't deal its combat damage. If its buried or something causes you to sac it, you can't regenerate it. Or if the card specifically says creatures can't regenerate.
I may be asking a lot but I truly am unaware of the confusion,change in the ability. If someone can put it succinctly, that would be appreciated.
I also think in that maro post its pretty much assumed that the ability is gone.
I liked rampage too...Craw giant with a lure on it.......old school ftw!!!!!
Stupid and lazy solution to just eliminate Regeneration. They could have change it to be a replacement efect with a cost, something like dredge. For example
Current Regeneration
{cost}: Regenerate this. (The next time this creature would be destroyed this turn, it isn't. Instead tap it, remove all damage from it, and remove it from combat.)
New Template
Regeneration {cost} (The next time this creature would be destroyed this turn, you may pay G. If you do, it isn't. Instead tap it, remove all damage from it, and remove it from combat.)
Its not like they haven't changed the template and functionality of other abilities like in the past, like with indestructible, lifelink, threshold (from keyword to ability word), etc
I think undying (ex. Hound of Griselbrand) and persist (ex. Murderous Redcap) make more sense flavor wise instead of regeneration for what the flavor of regeneration works out to be in many other settings, and are perhaps more easily balanced and understood by players, for something that takes otherwise lethal injuries then heals from such with a limited reserve of energy. You could even include mechanics on the card to remove the counters for a high cost as a way of allowing repeatable 'regeneration'. I don't like using temporary indestructibility in the place of every form of regeneration, for flavor and other reasons.
I am confused on what exactly the confusion is. Haha
How did it work pre 6th?
How does it work now?
What about it is counterintuitive?
What was the problem with the ability?
How were players doing it wrong?
When I played in the 90s, will-o-wisp and drudge skeletons were must use as infinite blockers. The way we did regeneration was the way it was written in the 4th strter deck rule book.
Finding an old fourth starter.............a aha.....yeah seems pretty easy to get.
You block their creature then regenerate it. It taps and doesn't deal its combat damage. If its buried or something causes you to sac it, you can't regenerate it. Or if the card specifically says creatures can't regenerate.
I may be asking a lot but I truly am unaware of the confusion,change in the ability. If someone can put it succinctly, that would be appreciated.
I also think in that maro post its pretty much assumed that the ability is gone.
I liked rampage too...Craw giant with a lure on it.......old school ftw!!!!!
Pre six - you regened after damage was dealt
Post six - you regen before damage is dealt.
It makes me really sad that they'll never return to haunt. The ability is really close to being excellent, they just did it wrong the first time. It should go on creatures only, and turn into something of an aura, such as "Haunted creature gets -2/-0". It's sad that we'll never see some abilities again just because they were misused on the first attempt.
On regeneration, I have been expecting them to squelch it for a while. It's sad when they remove interesting parts of the game, but you have to admit that regen has a lot of counterintuitive aspects. Still, the ability plays well, and works in ways that activated indestructibility can't. I am sad about it, but I can accept it. What I have trouble accepting is the number of things that they are similarly drowning: protection and landwalk have been almost completely smothered, "deciduous" seems to mean "in the process of being drowned". I'm still annoyed that hexproof completely supplanted shroud: it should always have been the rarer version that only went on cards that deserved it.
I think undying (ex. Hound of Griselbrand) and persist (ex. Murderous Redcap) make more sense flavor wise instead of regeneration for what the flavor of regeneration works out to be in many other settings, and are perhaps more easily balanced and understood by players, for something that takes otherwise lethal injuries then heals from such with a limited reserve of energy. You could even include mechanics on the card to remove the counters for a high cost as a way of allowing repeatable 'regeneration'. I don't like using temporary indestructibility in the place of every form of regeneration, for flavor and other reasons.
The problem is that undying and persist are horribly overpowering or work counter to their go to abilities with counters.
All the decks that have run murderous Madcap should be proof that persist is too overpowered. The fact wizards no longer likes making creatures with any form of drawback, and the fact they're unable to constantly keep making mechanics that give +1/+1 counters you now have undying in a spot where it doesn't work nearly as well. As well, the fact that +1/+1 and -1/-1 counters cancel each other out since NWO rules came about, we now have a horrible place for both of these effects to be abused for the rest of the time the game is around.
On the side of regeneration, they really just needed to change it back to how it worked pre-6th edition rule changes. Wizards loves saying they don't like to change stuff, but they really do it all the time. Good examples are interupts, mana sources, creature types, green creatures not having flying.... you say not recent enough... ok... how legendary works, new mulligan rules, how flip cards work (i.e. mana cost on both sides now), how shuffle effects work (i.e. blue sun zenith gets exiled before going to your deck you still shuffle).
Which got more confusing when damage stopped using the stack.
I always find explaining it as a shield is the best way to visualise its function but yeah that doesn't feel like regenerating so the change to indestructible is welcome.
Does this mean the "can't be regenerated" problem for reprint is going to disappear? But I really doubt it.
While the problem of regeneration having more foils/exceptions than actual situations where it works goes away, it would still be awkward to reference an obsolote mechanic. Like the cards that make creatures lose landwalk, the cards that intereact with regeneration are likely to be as obsolete as the regeneration cards.
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And it's also much more confusing. New players think it revives the creature from the graveyard, or, once they learn how it really works, they think it can be used to tap down an opposing creature.
Maybe if they just came up with a more intuitive way to template the reminder text, it would work better. Right now it's kind of awkward-sounding.
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
The timing is what makes regeneration confusing and non-intuitive. Flavor-wise, how can you regenerate before the damage has been done?
The current form of regen could be renamed "Shield" or "Barrier" and would make more sense: it prevents the damage before it happens, rather than healing afterwards.
I`m not fond of the Reassembling Skeleton ability. It`s way too easy to break, which means that it will only be very expensive and/or only on weak creatures. It`s also a dumber ability, if that makes sense - it doesn`t introduce any difficult choices. Regeneration makes you either wait to play the creature until you have regen mana up, or give your opponent a window to kill it. You also have to consider if you need to hold up mana to regenerate it once or twice in case your opponent doubles up on removal. Your opponent can also use removal to tap it and attack through it. All in all, I think that the gameplay choices that regeneration brings to the game are excellent, but it sure is unintuitive. So yeah, I`d love to see them bring it out on a few creatures per block.
Stay reasonable, be mindful of your expectations and don't feed the trolls.
Doomsdayin'
That is actually how it worked pre-sixth edition. Regeneration was one of the abilities that got *more* confusing after the 6th-edition change.
---
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Pascite draconem, evolvite aut morimini.
The name came about in pre-Sixth days, when you would regenerate a creature as it died. (Back then, you could also regenerate a creature with 0 toughness; it would die again right away, though.) I assume it was that way to make mana burn still relevant.
The absence of it in SOI is a pretty huge tipoff, though. Regenerate mainly stayed around this long for the flavor of "zombies don't die". Indestructible is much easier to grok, and does about the same thing; the only difference is regenerated creatures being removed from combat and tapped if they weren't tapped already, and the regenerate shield only activates once.
@flaming infinity: For the Reassembling Skeleton ability, maybe an "Activate this ability only if CARDNAME died this turn." clause?
On phasing:
How does anyone get it wrong? Seems to make sense to me.
Quite happy about this. Now to replace Maro with someone who does not want to make standard a combat and planeswalker obsessed mid range format so that I can play it again.....
How did it work pre 6th?
How does it work now?
What about it is counterintuitive?
What was the problem with the ability?
How were players doing it wrong?
When I played in the 90s, will-o-wisp and drudge skeletons were must use as infinite blockers. The way we did regeneration was the way it was written in the 4th strter deck rule book.
Finding an old fourth starter.............a aha.....yeah seems pretty easy to get.
You block their creature then regenerate it. It taps and doesn't deal its combat damage. If its buried or something causes you to sac it, you can't regenerate it. Or if the card specifically says creatures can't regenerate.
I may be asking a lot but I truly am unaware of the confusion,change in the ability. If someone can put it succinctly, that would be appreciated.
I also think in that maro post its pretty much assumed that the ability is gone.
I liked rampage too...Craw giant with a lure on it.......old school ftw!!!!!
Current Regeneration
{cost}: Regenerate this. (The next time this creature would be destroyed this turn, it isn't. Instead tap it, remove all damage from it, and remove it from combat.)
New Template
Regeneration {cost} (The next time this creature would be destroyed this turn, you may pay G. If you do, it isn't. Instead tap it, remove all damage from it, and remove it from combat.)
Its not like they haven't changed the template and functionality of other abilities like in the past, like with indestructible, lifelink, threshold (from keyword to ability word), etc
Flipping Delvers since 2011
MY DECKS
Modern: UR Izzet Delver
Pauper: U Delver Faeries | R Red Burn | GInfect
Commander: WB Athreos, God of Passage | UR Keranos Spellslinger | GWU Derevi, Tempo Tactician | BGU Tasigur, the Golden Fang | RW Feather, the Redeemed
Moved to the bottom of the Storm Scale IIRC.
Pre six - you regened after damage was dealt
Post six - you regen before damage is dealt.
It makes me really sad that they'll never return to haunt. The ability is really close to being excellent, they just did it wrong the first time. It should go on creatures only, and turn into something of an aura, such as "Haunted creature gets -2/-0". It's sad that we'll never see some abilities again just because they were misused on the first attempt.
On regeneration, I have been expecting them to squelch it for a while. It's sad when they remove interesting parts of the game, but you have to admit that regen has a lot of counterintuitive aspects. Still, the ability plays well, and works in ways that activated indestructibility can't. I am sad about it, but I can accept it. What I have trouble accepting is the number of things that they are similarly drowning: protection and landwalk have been almost completely smothered, "deciduous" seems to mean "in the process of being drowned". I'm still annoyed that hexproof completely supplanted shroud: it should always have been the rarer version that only went on cards that deserved it.
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Ever-Expanding "Just throw it in" cube.
The problem is that undying and persist are horribly overpowering or work counter to their go to abilities with counters.
All the decks that have run murderous Madcap should be proof that persist is too overpowered. The fact wizards no longer likes making creatures with any form of drawback, and the fact they're unable to constantly keep making mechanics that give +1/+1 counters you now have undying in a spot where it doesn't work nearly as well. As well, the fact that +1/+1 and -1/-1 counters cancel each other out since NWO rules came about, we now have a horrible place for both of these effects to be abused for the rest of the time the game is around.
On the side of regeneration, they really just needed to change it back to how it worked pre-6th edition rule changes. Wizards loves saying they don't like to change stuff, but they really do it all the time. Good examples are interupts, mana sources, creature types, green creatures not having flying.... you say not recent enough... ok... how legendary works, new mulligan rules, how flip cards work (i.e. mana cost on both sides now), how shuffle effects work (i.e. blue sun zenith gets exiled before going to your deck you still shuffle).
I always find explaining it as a shield is the best way to visualise its function but yeah that doesn't feel like regenerating so the change to indestructible is welcome.
https://archidekt.com/user/71716
Interesting
Does this mean the "can't be regenerated" problem for reprint is going to disappear? But I really doubt it.
While the problem of regeneration having more foils/exceptions than actual situations where it works goes away, it would still be awkward to reference an obsolote mechanic. Like the cards that make creatures lose landwalk, the cards that intereact with regeneration are likely to be as obsolete as the regeneration cards.