So in one of the articles where Maro responds to Twitter questions he talks about the remaining design space for werewolves. He states that there isnt much left to do with typical double-faced werewolves (especially at common). However, he then states that there is a lot of unexplored opportunity in single-faced werewolves that do werewolfy things.
What do you folks think the odds are that we see this happen in the near future? What werewolfy things do you think they will do? Do you think they could return to the black colorpie as well?
Werewolves are fine as single-faced cards - either in a context where "Werewolf" means "bipedal lupine monster" without a civilian form, or with a non-DFC mechanic to represent the transformation, like monstrosity.
But Werewolves are probably red and green in every plane R&D chooses to use them in. That's just the flavor that's most appropriate.
Werewolves are fine as single-faced cards - either in a context where "Werewolf" means "bipedal lupine monster" without a civilian form, or with a non-DFC mechanic to represent the transformation, like monstrosity.
But Werewolves are probably red and green in every plane R&D chooses to use them in. That's just the flavor that's most appropriate.
They could just as easily be justified as black creatures.
I could see single-faced Werewolves working similar to Ninjutsu, the flavor being that the bounced creature transforms into the Werewolf.
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MTGS Wikia Article about "New World Order"
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
PSA to everyone who keeps forgetting about the Reserved List:
You're on a website dedicated to talking about MtG. You're only a few keystrokes away from finding out what cards are on the Reserved List. You're also only a few keystrokes away from finding out why some cards on the Reserved List got foil printings in FtV, as Judge promos, or whatnot, as well as why that won't happen again. Stop doing this.
I could see single-faced Werewolves working similar to Ninjutsu, the flavor being that the bounced creature transforms into the Werewolf.
Personally I am more in favor of either Monstrous or, as was explored in Odyssey, Threshold, as a mechanic to show the transformation of lycanthropes. Of course, neither are as perfect as the DFC mechanic.
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It's about time for the reserved list to die, for the sake of Vintage and Legacy (And Commander).
There's also the problem that Monstrosity and Threshold don't reflect the change in the art.
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MTGS Wikia Article about "New World Order"
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
PSA to everyone who keeps forgetting about the Reserved List:
You're on a website dedicated to talking about MtG. You're only a few keystrokes away from finding out what cards are on the Reserved List. You're also only a few keystrokes away from finding out why some cards on the Reserved List got foil printings in FtV, as Judge promos, or whatnot, as well as why that won't happen again. Stop doing this.
I think a variant (probably trigger-based for a cheaper casting cost) of Champion would be the closest "flavor-relevant" mechanic we can get for single-faced Werewolf cards.
I really enjoy the brainstorming happening here for the possible mechanic. Now, Maro keeps trying to play the ignorance card when referring to why Ulrich was so disappointing. He repeatedly says that all Wizards knew was that we wanted a legendary werewolf. He claims they didnt realize that we thought a Legendary werewolf, desired really only for needs of Commander, should have tribal synergies (Let's not even discuss the fact that the only reason people wanted a legendary werewolf specifically as opposed to just another R/G Legendary creature was for the Commander tribal build).
So, here is what I am hoping for. I would love to see continued brainstorming on what we think a single-faced werewolf mechanic would be. Or if we just want to have the werewolf creature type with an already transformed werewolf art. Basically, it sounds like we need to be super specific in the event that R&D sees this...
I really enjoy the brainstorming happening here for the possible mechanic. Now, Maro keeps trying to play the ignorance card when referring to why Ulrich was so disappointing. He repeatedly says that all Wizards knew was that we wanted a legendary werewolf. He claims they didnt realize that we thought a Legendary werewolf, desired really only for needs of Commander, should have tribal synergies (Let's not even discuss the fact that the only reason people wanted a legendary werewolf specifically as opposed to just another R/G Legendary creature was for the Commander tribal build).
So, here is what I am hoping for. I would love to see continued brainstorming on what we think a single-faced werewolf mechanic would be. Or if we just want to have the werewolf creature type with an already transformed werewolf art. Basically, it sounds like we need to be super specific in the event that R&D sees this...
The issue is one of communication between the vocal populace and WotC, Maro even stated as múch after EMN was released. Just take Ishkanah, Grafwidow as an obvious example. WotC was under the impression that Commander players wanted a Legendary Spider (we did and still do) with a green/black color identity, completely missing that we wanted a Jund colored Legendary Spider rather than a Golgari one, to play with all our spider themed cards (well, almost all, but nobody cares about Ancient Spider anyway). It is the same with Ulrich, WotC knew we wanted a legendary werewolf, but they completely missed that we wanted a legendary werewolf *LORD* for our werewolf decks. But it is a two way street. We need to be more clear in what we want, and they need to be more attentive when we tell them. But they are only human after all, and both Ishkanah and Ulrich are good cards in their own right, even if they were not what we wanted.
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It's about time for the reserved list to die, for the sake of Vintage and Legacy (And Commander).
That's exactly my point. Im hoping we can brainstorm enough ideas to create a centralized hub for WOTC to use as a resource when determining how to play out singlefaced werewolves.
I dont know if this is the right place or if Wotc even looks here, but its a start
That's exactly my point. Im hoping we can brainstorm enough ideas to create a centralized hub for WOTC to use as a resource when determining how to play out singlefaced werewolves.
I dont know if this is the right place or if Wotc even looks here, but its a start
None of the design people look here I assume, mostly because some people can't understand that the rumor mill and its subforums are not for card creation.
That said, a place where we could post general ideas, such as "A jund colored (Black/Red/Green) legendary spider" or "A red-green legendary werewolf that cares about werewolves/wolf creatures", or "a reprint of Drowned would be nice, even in an auxiliary product" is a very good idea. The problem is not so much in making such a place, but rather bringing it to the attention of WotC so that they can get an idea of what we would like to see in the future.
Part of the problem is suggesting things in general terms without going to far into specifics. A reprint of "Trap-Door Spider" is fine as a suggestion for example, while a "red-green three mana uncommon spider with reach and first strike" is a wee bit to specific.
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It's about time for the reserved list to die, for the sake of Vintage and Legacy (And Commander).
I really enjoy the brainstorming happening here for the possible mechanic. Now, Maro keeps trying to play the ignorance card when referring to why Ulrich was so disappointing. He repeatedly says that all Wizards knew was that we wanted a legendary werewolf. He claims they didnt realize that we thought a Legendary werewolf, desired really only for needs of Commander, should have tribal synergies (Let's not even discuss the fact that the only reason people wanted a legendary werewolf specifically as opposed to just another R/G Legendary creature was for the Commander tribal build).
So, here is what I am hoping for. I would love to see continued brainstorming on what we think a single-faced werewolf mechanic would be. Or if we just want to have the werewolf creature type with an already transformed werewolf art. Basically, it sounds like we need to be super specific in the event that R&D sees this...
The issue is one of communication between the vocal populace and WotC, Maro even stated as múch after EMN was released. Just take Ishkanah, Grafwidow as an obvious example. WotC was under the impression that Commander players wanted a Legendary Spider (we did and still do) with a green/black color identity, completely missing that we wanted a Jund colored Legendary Spider rather than a Golgari one, to play with all our spider themed cards (well, almost all, but nobody cares about Ancient Spider anyway). It is the same with Ulrich, WotC knew we wanted a legendary werewolf, but they completely missed that we wanted a legendary werewolf *LORD* for our werewolf decks. But it is a two way street. We need to be more clear in what we want, and they need to be more attentive when we tell them. But they are only human after all, and both Ishkanah and Ulrich are good cards in their own right, even if they were not what we wanted.
They could just ask. I don't know why they feel the need to pretend to exist in a seperate reality, but it gets old fast.
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Lycanthropy Awareness Day.
Hoping for a cure, or at least an outbreak.
I really enjoy the brainstorming happening here for the possible mechanic. Now, Maro keeps trying to play the ignorance card when referring to why Ulrich was so disappointing. He repeatedly says that all Wizards knew was that we wanted a legendary werewolf. He claims they didnt realize that we thought a Legendary werewolf, desired really only for needs of Commander, should have tribal synergies (Let's not even discuss the fact that the only reason people wanted a legendary werewolf specifically as opposed to just another R/G Legendary creature was for the Commander tribal build).
So, here is what I am hoping for. I would love to see continued brainstorming on what we think a single-faced werewolf mechanic would be. Or if we just want to have the werewolf creature type with an already transformed werewolf art. Basically, it sounds like we need to be super specific in the event that R&D sees this...
The issue is one of communication between the vocal populace and WotC, Maro even stated as múch after EMN was released. Just take Ishkanah, Grafwidow as an obvious example. WotC was under the impression that Commander players wanted a Legendary Spider (we did and still do) with a green/black color identity, completely missing that we wanted a Jund colored Legendary Spider rather than a Golgari one, to play with all our spider themed cards (well, almost all, but nobody cares about Ancient Spider anyway). It is the same with Ulrich, WotC knew we wanted a legendary werewolf, but they completely missed that we wanted a legendary werewolf *LORD* for our werewolf decks. But it is a two way street. We need to be more clear in what we want, and they need to be more attentive when we tell them. But they are only human after all, and both Ishkanah and Ulrich are good cards in their own right, even if they were not what we wanted.
They could just ask. I don't know why they feel the need to pretend to exist in a seperate reality, but it gets old fast.
Except, they can't just ask because that would give away the pleasant surprise when the card is revealed. But they do get it right on occassion, they gave us no less than ten new dual colored dragon legends in Tarkir (granted, enemy color ones would also have been great), A couple of cycles of playable wedge commanders (seriously, Narset is a friggin beast in commander, as is Surrak Dragonclaw) which was also something we wanted. They gave us a five color identity legendary ally in BFZ block, who is actually good in an ally deck. Three new colorless commanders that aren't as broken as the original three Eldrazi and thus are unlikely to end up banned in the format, and they are quite good. And they hit a home run with Gisa and Geralf. Seriously, try building a blue/black zombie deck with them as the commander, I did, and it is hilarious and allows for some pretty degenerate combos with some of the zombie cards from both Innistrad blocks (Just don't use Rooftop Storm, it's a worthless card in the deck because you'll be making a *lot* of Zombie tokens). So yeah, while they fail pretty frequently because of pure communication, they just as often make awesome legends.
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It's about time for the reserved list to die, for the sake of Vintage and Legacy (And Commander).
Funny you should suggest it, the Cecani siblings are currently my only EDH deck. It's wonderful, and Wizards really did a great job on the card. I also play the three titans in the deck because I love how true their designs are to the lore. A friend has Tazri built, and although I don't care for it, it performs well and plays true to allies.
That said, the Werewolf legend comes off as an afterthought, mediocre for every possible use, and I wouldn't be surprised to find out that's true. Just checking off a box on a checklist. I just read an article where Rosewater says they designed Ulrich to be strong in multiplayer. He showed no sign that he's aware the card isn't even that great in the place he intended it to be played.
It just feels like for every thing they could screw up with werewolves (past the initial design, which was amazing and a huge part of why I love the tribe so much,) they not only screwed up, but did so in jaw-dropping ways, like their total absence from the third set of their debut block directly after they did the same thing with allies and said they wouldn't do it in the future. It had already gotten old five years ago.
They don't even know there's a problem though, and I doubt they will figure it out by the next return to Innistrad.
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Lycanthropy Awareness Day.
Hoping for a cure, or at least an outbreak.
Funny you should suggest it, the Cecani siblings are currently my only EDH deck. It's wonderful, and Wizards really did a great job on the card. I also play the three titans in the deck because I love how true their designs are to the lore. A friend has Tazri built, and although I don't care for it, it performs well and plays true to allies.
That said, the Werewolf legend comes off as an afterthought, mediocre for every possible use, and I wouldn't be surprised to find out that's true. Just checking off a box on a checklist. I just read an article where Rosewater says they designed Ulrich to be strong in multiplayer. He showed no sign that he's aware the card isn't even that great in the place he intended it to be played.
It just feels like for every thing they could screw up with werewolves (past the initial design, which was amazing and a huge part of why I love the tribe so much,) they not only screwed up, but did so in jaw-dropping ways, like their total absence from the third set of their debut block directly after they did the same thing with allies and said they wouldn't do it in the future. It had already gotten old five years ago.
They don't even know there's a problem though, and I doubt they will figure it out by the next return to Innistrad.
The thing about Ulrich is that it *is* a good card, it is just not what we wanted. Same with Ishkanah, good card, but not actually what we wanted. As the old adage goes, poor communication kills. Maro and the other designers hear "They want an X Legend" and they design an "X Legend" as soon as they are able to fit one in, but they often miss what exactly we want and need because *we* don't communicate it well enough. We usually just say "we want and X Legend", when we really should be saying that "we want an X Legend in ZY colors, and this is why" or "we want an X legend in ZY colors that cares about *mechanic*". The likely only reason they got Tarzi right was because we specifically mentioned that we wanted a five color identity legendary ally creature, and even then they teased us a bit with a couple of dual colored ones first.
The reason the DFC's didn't show up in Avacyn was that when WotC did the promise on the tail end of Zendikar block, it was already to late for them to make the change for Avacyn Restored unless they held the set back for a year and remade it completely from the ground up. Once they promise not to do something in M:TG, you can't really expect the change until at least another block, possibly two (today anyway) have gone because of the long time it takes to produce. Remember, they make sets years in advance. They are working on sets today that we won't see for another two to three years. The recent article on the new Conspiracy set from the sets lead designer shows this, they started working on it literally the same week the original Conspiracy was released (ok, the week after, but you get my point). This is also the reason that the first yearly commander product was so *****ty (Commander's Arsenal, seriously, what were they thinking?), was because it was literally slapped together at the last second to show that they intended to keep the promise they made of a yearly commander product. It still led to a *****storm because it was such a bad product.
But as I said, we need to better communicate what it is we are looking for, and WotC needs to listen better. Because until we do, we'll keep ending up with cards that are technically what we asked for, but not what we actually wanted.
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It's about time for the reserved list to die, for the sake of Vintage and Legacy (And Commander).
I get why they weren't included, but Wizards did nothing to make it better. AVR Wolfir could have been werewolf typed, since they brought back the the type so they didn't have to use the (wolf human [class]) type on things that are obviously werewolves. There are many things like that tied in with werewolves. At every point they could have screwed up with werewolves they did.
They knew before OG Innistrad we would want a legendary werewolf, but decided it was more important we had planeswalker. This was confirmed in an article by Rosewater. They had five years (six if you count the development year) to figure out what to do. It's not like we magic players don't like complaining. They would have known exactly what players wanted if they looked at a few rants. All they had to do was throw a manasink on the front face and it would have been perfect, and everyone would be happy. As it stands, Duskwatch Recruiter would have made the better legend.
Its understandable how they screwed this up, but I expect more from them. They are the best, and they get paid like the best, so I expect the best. These mistakes are amature mistakes. Or maybe the mistakes of people secure in their positions who have stopped trying.
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Lycanthropy Awareness Day.
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I get why they weren't included, but Wizards did nothing to make it better. AVR Wolfir could have been werewolf typed, since they brought back the the type so they didn't have to use the (wolf human [class]) type on things that are obviously werewolves. There are many things like that tied in with werewolves. At every point they could have screwed up with werewolves they did.
They knew before OG Innistrad we would want a legendary werewolf, but decided it was more important we had planeswalker. This was confirmed in an article by Rosewater. They had five years (six if you count the development year) to figure out what to do. It's not like we magic players don't like complaining. They would have known exactly what players wanted if they looked at a few rants. All they had to do was throw a manasink on the front face and it would have been perfect, and everyone would be happy. As it stands, Duskwatch Recruiter would have made the better legend.
Its understandable how they screwed this up, but I expect more from them. They are the best, and they get paid like the best, so I expect the best. These mistakes are amature mistakes. Or maybe the mistakes of people secure in their positions who have stopped trying.
You obviously still don't get it, by the time WotC knew that the DFC's were a success, it was to late to change AVR without holding it back a year, which would have destroyed M:TG.
And again, you completely missed the point I was making: They knew we wanted a werewolf legend, but they did not know we wanted a legendary werewolf LORD, because no one bothered to tell them. Not in *one* of the replied to messages on MaRo's tumbler regarding a werewolf legend does people even mention it should be a lord. It was the same with the spider legend, not *once* did people mention that they wanted a JUND colored legendary spider. When people don't tell them exactly what people are expecting, it is pretty damn hard for them to deliver. And contrary to popular belief, employees of WotC neither have the time, nor permission to trawl message boards for the odd post that tells them what people want. They are simply not allowed to because it could compromise their design process and could potentially lead to lawsuits (they stole my idea! Wah, wah, wah, I have sand in uncomfortable places). They have enough crap on their plate due to people not understanding the concept of "volunteering". If you want to let the designers know what you want to see (except whole card designs/new mechanics) in a general sense, then you need to contact them, specifically MaRo, on their tumblers or other social media, because that is the only chance you have. Complaining on it on forums doesn't do anything but waste your time. They are not perfect, they are human, just like I assume you are.
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It's about time for the reserved list to die, for the sake of Vintage and Legacy (And Commander).
You obviously still don't get it, by the time WotC knew that the DFC's were a success, it was to late to change AVR without holding it back a year, which would have destroyed M:TG.
My last post already answered this concern. I understand why their were no DFC in AVR, but the Werewolf subtype was brought back to replace the old werewolf typing template, which the Wolfir now use. They could have just gave the Wolfir the werewolf type, since they just brought it back to stop using the Wolfir's current Template. Then one of the block's major themes (a tribal) would continue into the final set without DFC. Easy solution, everyone wins. This is something basic enough (don't drop major themes partway through,) that they already knew better, and it's a solution they already developed for another problem, so it's not like they actually had to come up with it.
And again, you completely missed the point I was making: They knew we wanted a werewolf legend, but they did not know we wanted a legendary werewolf LORD, because no one bothered to tell them. Not in *one* of the replied to messages on MaRo's tumbler regarding a werewolf legend does people even mention it should be a lord. It was the same with the spider legend, not *once* did people mention that they wanted a JUND colored legendary spider. When people don't tell them exactly what people are expecting, it is pretty damn hard for them to deliver. And contrary to popular belief, employees of WotC neither have the time, nor permission to trawl message boards for the odd post that tells them what people want. They are simply not allowed to because it could compromise their design process and could potentially lead to lawsuits (they stole my idea! Wah, wah, wah, I have sand in uncomfortable places). They have enough crap on their plate due to people not understanding the concept of "volunteering". If you want to let the designers know what you want to see (except whole card designs/new mechanics) in a general sense, then you need to contact them, specifically MaRo, on their tumblers or other social media, because that is the only chance you have. Complaining on it on forums doesn't do anything but waste your time. They are not perfect, they are human, just like I assume you are.
If they can't look, and they can't ask (via surveys or whathaveyou,) they have to just pray people volunteer the information. This is the crux of my issue. It's not necassary they do it this way, and worse than if they just asked or looked. If that's how they do it, so be it. I don't like it, and I don't respect it, but in the end it's their choice to make.
I'll be sending a very detailed analysis of werewolf design to Wizards explaining in depth how they could better design them on the next return. I can't believe I never thought to do this before, so thank you for telling me exactly what I need to do. No sarcasm intended. I know it can come across that way in text.
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Lycanthropy Awareness Day.
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My last post already answered this concern. I understand why their were no DFC in AVR, but the Werewolf subtype was brought back to replace the old werewolf typing template, which the Wolfir now use. They could have just gave the Wolfir the werewolf type, since they just brought it back to stop using the Wolfir's current Template. Then one of the block's major themes (a tribal) would continue into the final set without DFC. Easy solution, everyone wins. This is something basic enough (don't drop major themes partway through,) that they already knew better, and it's a solution they already developed for another problem, so it's not like they actually had to come up with it.
But the Wolfir aren't actually werewolves, they are something different, which was the whole point of them, so giving them the werewolf type makes absolutely no sense. The reason for a lack of werewolves, and DFC's in general, in AVR was because the people in charge were afraid that DFC's weren't going to be popular. And from how some people reacted when they were originally revealed it is understandable to think why they would think so. They specifically created the Wolfir so that there would be *some* synergy between wolves in Innistrad/Dark Ascension and AVR. But the bosses hadn't anticipated just how popular the mechanic actually ended up being.
If they can't look, and they can't ask (via surveys or whathaveyou,) they have to just pray people volunteer the information. This is the crux of my issue. It's not necassary they do it this way, and worse than if they just asked or looked. If that's how they do it, so be it. I don't like it, and I don't respect it, but in the end it's their choice to make.
And that is exactly the crux of the problem, they can't legally look, so they have to hope that people are clear in their communication with them regarding what they want to see, and even then they can't please everyone. And they can't accept any advice much more advance than "We would like to see a red/green werewolf legend that cares about werewolves", anything more specific and they are not legally allowed to use it. It sucks, I know, but that's the way it is. Only in two ways can they solicit something more advanced than that: "You Make the Card" and "Great Designer Search", anything unsolicited could lead to lawsuits, and that would suck for everyone.
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It's about time for the reserved list to die, for the sake of Vintage and Legacy (And Commander).
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http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/making-magic/odds-ends-eldritch-moon-part-2-2016-08-01
What do you folks think the odds are that we see this happen in the near future? What werewolfy things do you think they will do? Do you think they could return to the black colorpie as well?
But Werewolves are probably red and green in every plane R&D chooses to use them in. That's just the flavor that's most appropriate.
I̟̥͍̠ͅn̩͉̣͍̬͚ͅ ̬̬͖t̯̹̞̺͖͓̯̤h̘͍̬e͙̯͈̖̼̮ ̭̬f̺̲̲̪i͙͉̟̩̰r̪̝͚͈̝̥͍̝̲s̼̻͇̘̳͔ͅt̲̺̳̗̜̪̙ ̳̺̥̻͚̗ͅm̜̜̟̰͈͓͎͇o̝̖̮̝͇m̯̻̞̼̫̗͓̤e̩̯̬̮̩n͎̱̪̲̹͖t͇̖s̰̮ͅ,̤̲͙̻̭̻̯̹̰ ̖t̫̙̺̯͖͚̯ͅh͙̯̦̳̗̰̟e͖̪͉̼̯ ̪͕g̞̣͔a̗̦t̬̬͓͙̫̖̭̻e̩̻̯ ̜̖̦̖̤̭͙̬t̞̹̥̪͎͉ͅo͕͚͍͇̲͇͓̺ ̭̬͙͈̣̻t͈͍͙͓̫̖͙̩h̪̬̖̙e̗͈ ̗̬̟̞̺̤͉̯ͅa̦̯͚̙̜̮f͉͙̲̣̞̼t̪̤̞̣͚e̲͉̳̥r͇̪̙͚͓l̥̞̞͎̹̯̹ͅi͓̬f̮̥̬̞͈ͅe͎ ̟̩̤̳̠̯̩̯o̮̘̲p̟͚̣̞͉͓e͍̩̣n͔̼͕͚̜e̬̱d̼̘͎̖̹͍̮̠,͖̺̭̱̮ ̣̲͖̬̪̭̥a̪͚n̟̲̝̤̤̞̗d̘̱̗͇̮͕̳͕͔ ͖̞͉͎t̹̙͎h̰̱͉̗e̪̞̱̝̹̩ͅ ̠̱̩̭̦p̯̙e͓o̳͚̰̯̺̱̰͔̘p̬͎̱̣̼̩͇l̗̟̖͚̠e̱͉͔̱̦̬̟̙ ̖͚̪͔̼̦w̺̖̤̱e͖̗̻̦͓̖̘̜r̭̥e͔̹̫̱͕̦̰͕ ̗͔̠p̠̗͍͍̱̳̠r̰͔͎̰o͉̥͓̰͚̥s̟͚̹̱͔̣t͉̙̳̖͖̪̮r̥̘̥͙̹a͉̟̫̟̳̠̟̭t͈̜̰͈͎e̞̣̭̲̬ ͚̗̯̟͙i͍͖̰̘̦͖͉ṇ̮̻̯̦̲̩͍ ̦̮͚̫̤t͉͖̫͕ͅͅh͙̮̻̘̣̮̼e͕̺ ͙l͕̠͎̰̥i̲͓͉̲g̫̳̟͈͇̖h̠̦̖t͓̯͎̗ ̳̪̘̟̙̩̦o̫̲f̙͔̰̙̠ ̹̪̗͇̯t͖̼̼͉͖̬h̹͇̩e͚̖̺̤͉̹͕̪ ͚͓̭̝̺G͎̗̯̩o̫̯̮̟̮̳̘d̜̲͙̠-̩̳̯̲̗̜P̹̘̥͉̝h͍͈̗̖̝ͅa͍̗̮̼̗r̜̖͇̙̺a̭̺͔̞̳͈o̪̣͓̯̬͙̯̰̗h̖̦͈̥̯͔.͇̣̙̝
They could just as easily be justified as black creatures.
Lesser Werewolf
Greater Werewolf
It really depends on the flavor of them.
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Numquam evolutioni obstes. Solum conculceris.
Pascite draconem, evolvite aut morimini.
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
I think black werewolves better represent the curse of lycantgropy itself. Green and red better represent the behaviors and motivations of werewolves.
And Kate Beckinsale in latex, of course.
Personally I am more in favor of either Monstrous or, as was explored in Odyssey, Threshold, as a mechanic to show the transformation of lycanthropes. Of course, neither are as perfect as the DFC mechanic.
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Numquam evolutioni obstes. Solum conculceris.
Pascite draconem, evolvite aut morimini.
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
But it is possible to do so.
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Numquam evolutioni obstes. Solum conculceris.
Pascite draconem, evolvite aut morimini.
So, here is what I am hoping for. I would love to see continued brainstorming on what we think a single-faced werewolf mechanic would be. Or if we just want to have the werewolf creature type with an already transformed werewolf art. Basically, it sounds like we need to be super specific in the event that R&D sees this...
The issue is one of communication between the vocal populace and WotC, Maro even stated as múch after EMN was released. Just take Ishkanah, Grafwidow as an obvious example. WotC was under the impression that Commander players wanted a Legendary Spider (we did and still do) with a green/black color identity, completely missing that we wanted a Jund colored Legendary Spider rather than a Golgari one, to play with all our spider themed cards (well, almost all, but nobody cares about Ancient Spider anyway). It is the same with Ulrich, WotC knew we wanted a legendary werewolf, but they completely missed that we wanted a legendary werewolf *LORD* for our werewolf decks. But it is a two way street. We need to be more clear in what we want, and they need to be more attentive when we tell them. But they are only human after all, and both Ishkanah and Ulrich are good cards in their own right, even if they were not what we wanted.
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Numquam evolutioni obstes. Solum conculceris.
Pascite draconem, evolvite aut morimini.
I dont know if this is the right place or if Wotc even looks here, but its a start
None of the design people look here I assume, mostly because some people can't understand that the rumor mill and its subforums are not for card creation.
That said, a place where we could post general ideas, such as "A jund colored (Black/Red/Green) legendary spider" or "A red-green legendary werewolf that cares about werewolves/wolf creatures", or "a reprint of Drowned would be nice, even in an auxiliary product" is a very good idea. The problem is not so much in making such a place, but rather bringing it to the attention of WotC so that they can get an idea of what we would like to see in the future.
Part of the problem is suggesting things in general terms without going to far into specifics. A reprint of "Trap-Door Spider" is fine as a suggestion for example, while a "red-green three mana uncommon spider with reach and first strike" is a wee bit to specific.
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Numquam evolutioni obstes. Solum conculceris.
Pascite draconem, evolvite aut morimini.
That's an amazing idea. Near perfection. Great job.
They could just ask. I don't know why they feel the need to pretend to exist in a seperate reality, but it gets old fast.
Hoping for a cure, or at least an outbreak.
Level 1 Judge (yay)
Except, they can't just ask because that would give away the pleasant surprise when the card is revealed. But they do get it right on occassion, they gave us no less than ten new dual colored dragon legends in Tarkir (granted, enemy color ones would also have been great), A couple of cycles of playable wedge commanders (seriously, Narset is a friggin beast in commander, as is Surrak Dragonclaw) which was also something we wanted. They gave us a five color identity legendary ally in BFZ block, who is actually good in an ally deck. Three new colorless commanders that aren't as broken as the original three Eldrazi and thus are unlikely to end up banned in the format, and they are quite good. And they hit a home run with Gisa and Geralf. Seriously, try building a blue/black zombie deck with them as the commander, I did, and it is hilarious and allows for some pretty degenerate combos with some of the zombie cards from both Innistrad blocks (Just don't use Rooftop Storm, it's a worthless card in the deck because you'll be making a *lot* of Zombie tokens). So yeah, while they fail pretty frequently because of pure communication, they just as often make awesome legends.
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Numquam evolutioni obstes. Solum conculceris.
Pascite draconem, evolvite aut morimini.
That said, the Werewolf legend comes off as an afterthought, mediocre for every possible use, and I wouldn't be surprised to find out that's true. Just checking off a box on a checklist. I just read an article where Rosewater says they designed Ulrich to be strong in multiplayer. He showed no sign that he's aware the card isn't even that great in the place he intended it to be played.
It just feels like for every thing they could screw up with werewolves (past the initial design, which was amazing and a huge part of why I love the tribe so much,) they not only screwed up, but did so in jaw-dropping ways, like their total absence from the third set of their debut block directly after they did the same thing with allies and said they wouldn't do it in the future. It had already gotten old five years ago.
They don't even know there's a problem though, and I doubt they will figure it out by the next return to Innistrad.
Hoping for a cure, or at least an outbreak.
Level 1 Judge (yay)
The thing about Ulrich is that it *is* a good card, it is just not what we wanted. Same with Ishkanah, good card, but not actually what we wanted. As the old adage goes, poor communication kills. Maro and the other designers hear "They want an X Legend" and they design an "X Legend" as soon as they are able to fit one in, but they often miss what exactly we want and need because *we* don't communicate it well enough. We usually just say "we want and X Legend", when we really should be saying that "we want an X Legend in ZY colors, and this is why" or "we want an X legend in ZY colors that cares about *mechanic*". The likely only reason they got Tarzi right was because we specifically mentioned that we wanted a five color identity legendary ally creature, and even then they teased us a bit with a couple of dual colored ones first.
The reason the DFC's didn't show up in Avacyn was that when WotC did the promise on the tail end of Zendikar block, it was already to late for them to make the change for Avacyn Restored unless they held the set back for a year and remade it completely from the ground up. Once they promise not to do something in M:TG, you can't really expect the change until at least another block, possibly two (today anyway) have gone because of the long time it takes to produce. Remember, they make sets years in advance. They are working on sets today that we won't see for another two to three years. The recent article on the new Conspiracy set from the sets lead designer shows this, they started working on it literally the same week the original Conspiracy was released (ok, the week after, but you get my point). This is also the reason that the first yearly commander product was so *****ty (Commander's Arsenal, seriously, what were they thinking?), was because it was literally slapped together at the last second to show that they intended to keep the promise they made of a yearly commander product. It still led to a *****storm because it was such a bad product.
But as I said, we need to better communicate what it is we are looking for, and WotC needs to listen better. Because until we do, we'll keep ending up with cards that are technically what we asked for, but not what we actually wanted.
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Numquam evolutioni obstes. Solum conculceris.
Pascite draconem, evolvite aut morimini.
They knew before OG Innistrad we would want a legendary werewolf, but decided it was more important we had planeswalker. This was confirmed in an article by Rosewater. They had five years (six if you count the development year) to figure out what to do. It's not like we magic players don't like complaining. They would have known exactly what players wanted if they looked at a few rants. All they had to do was throw a manasink on the front face and it would have been perfect, and everyone would be happy. As it stands, Duskwatch Recruiter would have made the better legend.
Its understandable how they screwed this up, but I expect more from them. They are the best, and they get paid like the best, so I expect the best. These mistakes are amature mistakes. Or maybe the mistakes of people secure in their positions who have stopped trying.
Hoping for a cure, or at least an outbreak.
Level 1 Judge (yay)
You obviously still don't get it, by the time WotC knew that the DFC's were a success, it was to late to change AVR without holding it back a year, which would have destroyed M:TG.
And again, you completely missed the point I was making: They knew we wanted a werewolf legend, but they did not know we wanted a legendary werewolf LORD, because no one bothered to tell them. Not in *one* of the replied to messages on MaRo's tumbler regarding a werewolf legend does people even mention it should be a lord. It was the same with the spider legend, not *once* did people mention that they wanted a JUND colored legendary spider. When people don't tell them exactly what people are expecting, it is pretty damn hard for them to deliver. And contrary to popular belief, employees of WotC neither have the time, nor permission to trawl message boards for the odd post that tells them what people want. They are simply not allowed to because it could compromise their design process and could potentially lead to lawsuits (they stole my idea! Wah, wah, wah, I have sand in uncomfortable places). They have enough crap on their plate due to people not understanding the concept of "volunteering". If you want to let the designers know what you want to see (except whole card designs/new mechanics) in a general sense, then you need to contact them, specifically MaRo, on their tumblers or other social media, because that is the only chance you have. Complaining on it on forums doesn't do anything but waste your time. They are not perfect, they are human, just like I assume you are.
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Numquam evolutioni obstes. Solum conculceris.
Pascite draconem, evolvite aut morimini.
My last post already answered this concern. I understand why their were no DFC in AVR, but the Werewolf subtype was brought back to replace the old werewolf typing template, which the Wolfir now use. They could have just gave the Wolfir the werewolf type, since they just brought it back to stop using the Wolfir's current Template. Then one of the block's major themes (a tribal) would continue into the final set without DFC. Easy solution, everyone wins. This is something basic enough (don't drop major themes partway through,) that they already knew better, and it's a solution they already developed for another problem, so it's not like they actually had to come up with it.
If they can't look, and they can't ask (via surveys or whathaveyou,) they have to just pray people volunteer the information. This is the crux of my issue. It's not necassary they do it this way, and worse than if they just asked or looked. If that's how they do it, so be it. I don't like it, and I don't respect it, but in the end it's their choice to make.
I'll be sending a very detailed analysis of werewolf design to Wizards explaining in depth how they could better design them on the next return. I can't believe I never thought to do this before, so thank you for telling me exactly what I need to do. No sarcasm intended. I know it can come across that way in text.
Hoping for a cure, or at least an outbreak.
Level 1 Judge (yay)
But the Wolfir aren't actually werewolves, they are something different, which was the whole point of them, so giving them the werewolf type makes absolutely no sense. The reason for a lack of werewolves, and DFC's in general, in AVR was because the people in charge were afraid that DFC's weren't going to be popular. And from how some people reacted when they were originally revealed it is understandable to think why they would think so. They specifically created the Wolfir so that there would be *some* synergy between wolves in Innistrad/Dark Ascension and AVR. But the bosses hadn't anticipated just how popular the mechanic actually ended up being.
And that is exactly the crux of the problem, they can't legally look, so they have to hope that people are clear in their communication with them regarding what they want to see, and even then they can't please everyone. And they can't accept any advice much more advance than "We would like to see a red/green werewolf legend that cares about werewolves", anything more specific and they are not legally allowed to use it. It sucks, I know, but that's the way it is. Only in two ways can they solicit something more advanced than that: "You Make the Card" and "Great Designer Search", anything unsolicited could lead to lawsuits, and that would suck for everyone.
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Numquam evolutioni obstes. Solum conculceris.
Pascite draconem, evolvite aut morimini.