As much as I absolutely love, love, LOVE Lorwyn block, I don't want WotC to make a full return to it, because they'll just **** it up like they did Zendikar.
Maro has stated multiple times he regretted making tribal spells, that it was a mistake.
WotC keeping MaRo around this long has been a mistake.
The idea and concept of Tribal spells is excellent. Here's a spell that the Elves created or developed, that is beyond the scope of the Goblins. Here's a spell that the Goblins stumbled upon that is too grotesque for the Elves to even consider. I loved the mechanic.
Let me answer the question I keep getting on this [Moan of the Unhallowed] card. The card makes Zombies. Why isn't it a tribal sorcery – Zombie? The answer is because we decided not to use tribal (I'm talking about the card type here) in Innistrad. But if a set with a strong tribal subtheme doesn't use it, when would it ever get used? The answer is never. Yes, I am announcing the probable death knell of the tribal card type. (I could imagine a specific use, like the Eldrazi spells in Rise, that might pull it out of mothballs.)
So what happened? Let's flashback to Innistrad design. As I was doing a set with a tribal theme, I used the tribal card type wherever I could. Moan of the Unhallowed, for example, was a tribal sorcery – Zombie. The problem was that it's very hard to draw the line. If a set uses tribal then it wants to go on any card that has a definable flavor. As this set is top-down, that meant that a majority of the noncreature cards were using the tribal card type.
The end result was that the cards were getting wordier but it seldom mattered. Most tribal (theme) cards cared about creatures and so weren't applicable to be tribal (type) cards. The one big exception was Zombies as there are multiple ways to get Zombie cards out of the graveyard, thus I believe the reason that I keep getting asked the question on this card.
We playtested with tribal, and I kept getting the same note that it seldom seemed to matter. In the end, we made the call that it wasn't adding enough to the game play to offset its inclusion, which both made the cards wordier and caused more confusion.
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Peasant: Storm (UR) Commander:Hazezon Tamar (GRW), Arjun, the Shifting Flame (UR), [Waiting on Amonkhet] Tiny Leader: [Waiting on Amonkhet] Peasant Dragon: [Waiting on Amonkhet] Modern: Orzhova Spirits (WB) Legacy: Burn (R) Vintage: Bazaar Dredge (B)
You know, I opened this thread thinking it was completely unlikely; in my mind, the "any type of counter" cards in Aether Revolt are for Undying / Persistent mummies, or possibly Infectious Phyrexians, in Amonkhet. Then, as I hadn't yet returned to the game when they came out, I had to look up the mechanics for Lorwyn and Shadowmoor. To my surprise, I found that not only did it have Wither and Persist for the handful of "counters matter" cards, it also had Champion and Evoke: Revolt enablers.
I, for one, would love to take a trip to Lorwyn, if for no other reason than dealing with the Great Aurora will require a better story than "Gatewatch smash!" Or maybe we'd be better off not going back, so Wizards can't find a way to turn the Aurora into a punchable problem.
Lorwyn felt like a true fantasy world. Idyllic, Celtic, very reminiscent of high fantasy with faeries, elves, etc. I do wish it had humans, which I suppose it could in a remote part or whatever if they really wanted it to. That said, I just loved how beautiful it was. And cute too - merrows and faeries pranking eachother with spells, the playful and vibrant nature of the art while delivering strong fantasy tropes. IDK it's one of the first images that come to mind when I think of the word "magic"
... And then it went total Metroid Prime 2 in Shadowmoor and everyone started killing each other. That plane was weird in ways that would probably make Jace and Tamiyo warp in, look around, and then slowly back away into the blind eternities.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Actually, something I'd like to see if they did a return to Lorwyn / Elwyn is a set that focuses on the passing of seasons. They already did night and day, so why not Summer, Winter, Fall, and Spring? It's a world that shifts and is highly morphic, so it wouldn't be out of this world to see something like the flamekin turning into ice kin, or the Kithkin settlements going from the summertime farming and fall harvests into the depths of winter and the great spring thaw. I have no idea what is going to happen with goblins and fairies with the seasons, but it would be interesting to see what the designers come up with.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Well whaddya know, a game that's all about punching out your opponent has stories where the protagonists punch out their opponents.
And the times the problem wasn't "punched out"?
The Time Rifts on Dominaria were sealed by Planeswalkers sacrificing their sparks and in some cases their lives.
Jace had to erase many of his own memories in the process of defeating Alhammarret. (Though I suppose this could count as a "punching out".)
Chandra passed the test of the Purifying Fire by confessing a mistake she didn't even truly make (she then was able to absorb the fire and destroy the Order of Heliud, which I suppose counts as another punching out).
Venser sacrificed his life and spark to liberate Karn from the Phyrexians.
In order to get at Griselbrand, Liliana forced Thalia to open the Helvault, which also released Avacyn.
Jace united the ten Maze Runners' minds at the Maze's End, passing Azor's test and becoming the Guildpact.
Sarkhan saved Ugin's life using a hedron piece, after traveling back in time using Ugin's Nexus.
MTGS Wikia Article about "New World Order"
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
PSA to everyone who keeps forgetting about the Reserved List:
You're on a website dedicated to talking about MtG. You're only a few keystrokes away from finding out what cards are on the Reserved List. You're also only a few keystrokes away from finding out why some cards on the Reserved List got foil printings in FtV, as Judge promos, or whatnot, as well as why that won't happen again. Stop doing this.
Keep in mind that the Great Aurora, which is a big part of what made Lorwyn unique, is gone. Now it's basically just another plane.
I completely disagree. At the end of Eventide, Lorwyn and Shadowmoor fused together and we know almost nothing about the resulting plane. The door is open to unlimited possibilities. Now granted, I don't really trust current Magic Creative to do a particularly good job with it given their recent track record. The potential is absolutely there, however.
If they fused, it would certainly be a confusing mess of a place: Esper Merfolk, Bant Kithkin, Naya Giants, Jund Goblins, Abzan Elves...plus little fringe tribes like Fae and Boggles and Treefolk.
Keep in mind that the Great Aurora, which is a big part of what made Lorwyn unique, is gone. Now it's basically just another plane.
I completely disagree. At the end of Eventide, Lorwyn and Shadowmoor fused together and we know almost nothing about the resulting plane. The door is open to unlimited possibilities. Now granted, I don't really trust current Magic Creative to do a particularly good job with it given their recent track record. The potential is absolutely there, however.
If they fused, it would certainly be a confusing mess of a place: Esper Merfolk, Bant Kithkin, Naya Giants, Jund Goblins, Abzan Elves...plus little fringe tribes like Fae and Boggles and Treefolk.
That actually... sounds pretty interesting.
Tribal + Shard/Wedge seems like a fascinating design. Having the five main tribes plus little one's like changelings (which add to the tribal feel) seem like a good "return" concept.
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DECKS:
Commander:
Aurelia the Warleader - Combat Tricks and Swarm
Oloro, Ageless Ascetic - Lifegain/Lifedrain Pillowfort
Trostani, Selesnya's Voice - Token Assault
Meren of Clan Nel Toth - Reanimator Value
Mizzix - Out of the Box Spellslinger
I don't see how it was a mistake. It made tribal decks more fun than they already are. I understand tribal decks aren't usually very competitive in a given format but they're still fun to play. Especially if there's a good lord for the creature type and some good synergies within. Elves, goblins, and merfolk are the best examples. Merfolk being the most competitive of all of them but goblins and elves are super fast and it's usually a race to try and beat them. Especially in casual kitchen table play.
Not what he said. MaRo loves tribal (little 't') decks. He said Tribal (big 't') type didn't do what they hoped for, in that it just didn't matter enough to really bother messing with. It was additional complexity with (again, according to their data, not yours, and not mine) very little payoff in the vast majority of games where it saw play. It was a very low-impact mechanic and they didn't see any reason to do more with it.
And if it was such a mistake the first time then why did they do it again in rise of the eldrazi? There is a couple tribal eldrazi spells out there.
Yes, they did a few more w/the Eldrazi simply because they hadn't arrived at the final decision yet. Consider the fact that Blade of the Bloodchief (in the very same block as Rise.) It did not get Tribal Artifact - Vampire so this is a pretty clear signal they weren't really sure when/where to use this mechanic.
(For the record, I liked Tribal and I was disappointed to see it go, but that's how it goes.)
Here's the trouble with a combined Lorwyn-Shadowmoor block: What is it about?
Yes, the idea of DFCs that switch between Lorwyn tribal and Shadowmoor color matters sounds interesting on paper, but the problem is that each theme pulls focus from the other, rather than allowing each to shine. Then there's the question of the transform trigger; do we just roll with the Werewolf trigger, or try to justify something else as mechanically representing day and night?
Not to mention you're looking at compacting what now amounts to two whole blocks' worth of material into a single block; you're gonna have to cut some stuff, like a lot of the Shadowmoor-exclusive tribes such as Hags and Dwarves (though in hindsight Dwarves would have fared better than Kithkin).
Then there's the question of what mechanics to bring back? Persist and Wither were the most popular by a longshot. Evoke also enjoyed some popularity. The Tribal card type isn't coming back. Retrace is repetitive. Clash, Kinship, and Conspire all didn't perform well (though they have the potential to play well). Champion was middling if I remember correctly. Chroma didn't do well (but inspired the much more successful Devotion). Reinforce barely saw any use; I'd like to see a tweaked version that's tied to the creature's power, though I'd like even more to get a kicker-esque mechanic that lets you play the creature and get the +1/+1 counters. Prowl doesn't work on noncreature spells without the Tribal card type, so if that returned I'd want to see a tweaked version of that as well (I've suggested in the past that they could use technology similar to Typecycling to specify the tribe that must deal combat damage without the card itself having that type).
Trying to fit in a minimum of eight tribes (nine if you count the Changelings) has also proven to be rather unwieldy. Inter-tribal synergies work fine on a small scale, but when one Goblin cares about Faeries and another cares about Giants, it makes building a limited Goblin deck a lot tougher (and no, increasing the complexity does not automatically make the game better for the majority of players just because one particular person enjoys the intellectual challenge).
Maro also considers changing the tribes' color pairs to be a mistake, most likely because it resulted in changing too much between the blocks. Lorwyn gives you red and white Giants, Shadowmoor gives you red and green. How would you draft that? Granted, Lorwyn and Shadowmoor weren't designed to be drafted together (though the two blocks do enjoy some synergy), but when your return looks to revisit both at once, you don't have a choice but to design them to draft together.
MTGS Wikia Article about "New World Order"
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
PSA to everyone who keeps forgetting about the Reserved List:
You're on a website dedicated to talking about MtG. You're only a few keystrokes away from finding out what cards are on the Reserved List. You're also only a few keystrokes away from finding out why some cards on the Reserved List got foil printings in FtV, as Judge promos, or whatnot, as well as why that won't happen again. Stop doing this.
To answer the last part of your post I could see maybe combining a tribe like your example into a wedge. Rwg would be an interesting color combo to play and potentially really strong given the pros of each color. They all kinda make up where the others fall short. But one way to do it would be to give the creature say a rw casting cost and a green ability. Or you could use any combination of the 3 colors. The lord could cost say 1-2rwg just to maintain effectiveness on the field. Or a couple of them could cost one color but have an ability that's obviously a different color. Like giving a w giant trample or double strike or a green one some sort of creature removal built in. Just to keep it interesting and change the way standard is played but at the same time not making it overly complex like some are suggesting.
According to MaRo, no humans = no go, which means returning to Lorwyn is unlikely. (I fundamentally disagree with this btw, but not much to be done, unfortunately)
So let the Humans (obviously our ... beloved Gatewatch,) visit Lorwyn and mix it up with their foreign presence.
WotC keeping MaRo around this long has been a mistake.
The idea and concept of Tribal spells is excellent. Here's a spell that the Elves created or developed, that is beyond the scope of the Goblins. Here's a spell that the Goblins stumbled upon that is too grotesque for the Elves to even consider. I loved the mechanic.
Commander: Hazezon Tamar (GRW), Arjun, the Shifting Flame (UR), [Waiting on Amonkhet]
Tiny Leader: [Waiting on Amonkhet]
Peasant Dragon: [Waiting on Amonkhet]
Modern: Orzhova Spirits (WB)
Legacy: Burn (R)
Vintage: Bazaar Dredge (B)
I, for one, would love to take a trip to Lorwyn, if for no other reason than dealing with the Great Aurora will require a better story than "Gatewatch smash!" Or maybe we'd be better off not going back, so Wizards can't find a way to turn the Aurora into a punchable problem.
... And then it went total Metroid Prime 2 in Shadowmoor and everyone started killing each other. That plane was weird in ways that would probably make Jace and Tamiyo warp in, look around, and then slowly back away into the blind eternities.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Well whaddya know, a game that's all about punching out your opponent has stories where the protagonists punch out their opponents.
And the times the problem wasn't "punched out"?
Well look at that, most of the cases where the problem wasn't punched out were recent stories, including those involving Gatewatch.
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
That actually... sounds pretty interesting.
Club Flamingo Wins: 1!
Tribal + Shard/Wedge seems like a fascinating design. Having the five main tribes plus little one's like changelings (which add to the tribal feel) seem like a good "return" concept.
Commander:
Aurelia the Warleader - Combat Tricks and Swarm
Oloro, Ageless Ascetic - Lifegain/Lifedrain Pillowfort
Trostani, Selesnya's Voice - Token Assault
Meren of Clan Nel Toth - Reanimator Value
Mizzix - Out of the Box Spellslinger
Standard:
RB Madness Vamps
Casual:
Formerly Modern Elfball
Not what he said. MaRo loves tribal (little 't') decks. He said Tribal (big 't') type didn't do what they hoped for, in that it just didn't matter enough to really bother messing with. It was additional complexity with (again, according to their data, not yours, and not mine) very little payoff in the vast majority of games where it saw play. It was a very low-impact mechanic and they didn't see any reason to do more with it.
Yes, they did a few more w/the Eldrazi simply because they hadn't arrived at the final decision yet. Consider the fact that Blade of the Bloodchief (in the very same block as Rise.) It did not get Tribal Artifact - Vampire so this is a pretty clear signal they weren't really sure when/where to use this mechanic.
(For the record, I liked Tribal and I was disappointed to see it go, but that's how it goes.)
Listen to MaRo for yourself..
Fully-powered 600-Card "Dream Cube" https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/dreamcube
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Cubing in Indianapolis...send me a PM!!
Yes, the idea of DFCs that switch between Lorwyn tribal and Shadowmoor color matters sounds interesting on paper, but the problem is that each theme pulls focus from the other, rather than allowing each to shine. Then there's the question of the transform trigger; do we just roll with the Werewolf trigger, or try to justify something else as mechanically representing day and night?
Not to mention you're looking at compacting what now amounts to two whole blocks' worth of material into a single block; you're gonna have to cut some stuff, like a lot of the Shadowmoor-exclusive tribes such as Hags and Dwarves (though in hindsight Dwarves would have fared better than Kithkin).
Then there's the question of what mechanics to bring back? Persist and Wither were the most popular by a longshot. Evoke also enjoyed some popularity. The Tribal card type isn't coming back. Retrace is repetitive. Clash, Kinship, and Conspire all didn't perform well (though they have the potential to play well). Champion was middling if I remember correctly. Chroma didn't do well (but inspired the much more successful Devotion). Reinforce barely saw any use; I'd like to see a tweaked version that's tied to the creature's power, though I'd like even more to get a kicker-esque mechanic that lets you play the creature and get the +1/+1 counters. Prowl doesn't work on noncreature spells without the Tribal card type, so if that returned I'd want to see a tweaked version of that as well (I've suggested in the past that they could use technology similar to Typecycling to specify the tribe that must deal combat damage without the card itself having that type).
Trying to fit in a minimum of eight tribes (nine if you count the Changelings) has also proven to be rather unwieldy. Inter-tribal synergies work fine on a small scale, but when one Goblin cares about Faeries and another cares about Giants, it makes building a limited Goblin deck a lot tougher (and no, increasing the complexity does not automatically make the game better for the majority of players just because one particular person enjoys the intellectual challenge).
Maro also considers changing the tribes' color pairs to be a mistake, most likely because it resulted in changing too much between the blocks. Lorwyn gives you red and white Giants, Shadowmoor gives you red and green. How would you draft that? Granted, Lorwyn and Shadowmoor weren't designed to be drafted together (though the two blocks do enjoy some synergy), but when your return looks to revisit both at once, you don't have a choice but to design them to draft together.
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
I would to see them make the allyncolor hatchlings.
So let the Humans (obviously our ... beloved Gatewatch,) visit Lorwyn and mix it up with their foreign presence.