What I think will actually happen
Banned: Eye of Ugin
Unbanned: No changes
my buddy and I were almost talking about the exact same changes the other day. Seems pretty fair
Yeah, Stirrings getting banned, a card played in a single T2 deck, a ban that would entirety kill Tron from being competitive ever again. How did I not see how reasonable itit? Smh, BGX fanboys, can't put up with a single bad matchup. What's next, Guide?
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Which is really the worst kind of situation, cards that are situationally either terrible or broken.
Rituals are not broken on their own. It takes a critical mass to make them useful. Why ban them now when ritual based combo decks are irrelevant? It doesn't diversify the meta it literally just kills off some decks that don't have a competitive impact and restrict people's deck building options.
Certainly an "all-midrange", whatever that even means, format would be much, much better than what we have currently. Because that naturally implies that decks actually try to interact with one another.
That said it's not what would happen once we've gotten the linear strategies under control.
Aggro and Midrange are completely linear decks. They intend the play the game exactly the same every single time, same strategy and with as much redundancy as possible so that they're casting effectively the same cards in the same order.
That seems like a clear winning strategy, because under the current premises neither "midrange", tempo nor control are viable archetypes in Modern.
Interaction is a liability.
What are you even talking about?
Infect - Aggro (no fast mana)
Jund - Midrange (no fast mana)
Abzan Company - Midrange (no fast mana)
Burn - Aggro (no fast mana)
Affinity - Aggro
Eldrazi - Aggro/Midrange
The only successful combo decks are Living End, Ad Nausem, and Grishoalbrand none of which are considered Tier 1.
I really think that most people who are voting for Eye to get the axe don't understand that Temples allows for infinitely better games than Eye, from What I have seen getting the Thought-knot Seer is incredibly important, get rid of Eye and they can still do a turn 2 TKS, while it is much less likely, it is possible. Ban Temple and there is no way the normal deck can get a Thought-knot until at least turn 3, which is much more fair for any form of control or tech to stop Eldrazi. Dumping even 2 mimics doesn't so much if you cannot pump them to 4 power by turn 2 and swing for a lot.
With temple gone the best an Eldrazi player would most likely could do is Matter Reshaper or Thought-knot BUT would require a SSG AND a colorless source, the matter reshaper just needs a colorless source but is much more fair. Even if you play the Urborg with eye out and get the mythical 4 mana out of Eye and Urborg, you cannot play any of the REALLY heavy hitters, and as I recall most Eldrazi decks don't really touch the Wasteland Strangler anymore, which doesn't do much without some form of exile. Before we got TKS, reality smasher, and mimic the Black White Eldrazi decks were powerful but not a Menance, I would love to see them go back to that power level.
Those thinking Tron would get the axe for Eldrazi's sins seems very unlikely and from most of the Bannings I have witness Wizards tries their hardest to only hurt a single archetype at the time, like when Eggs was hit, they made sure to hit Second Sunrise not Faith's Reward. Regardless the outcome I hope they unban some cards, I believe Stoneforge probably would be fine, there are a lot of 4/5 and 5/5 in the format that can deal with the Batterskull, Tasigur and Zombie Fish. I would love to see Bloodbraid but I doubt it, as stated before K-command is stupid good and being able to BB into it would be disgusting.
I have been saying this every time I make a comment about the modern eldrazi.
Edlrazi Temple should be the first card to go. multiple eye's do nothing, and 2 temples still let you cast turn 2 TKS after turn 1 mimic.
This guy gets it. When my SCG pro friends who broke the Mono-black eldrazi deck before the pro tour says its the best card in the deck, it simply needs to go.
Just to be clear the card being flexible is not in doubt, nor is the fact that it's powerful. Why is it too good?
I've had this argument more times than I care to remember but I've never been able to get an actual answer. It's just " it's too good", no argument required. Or, even better, an argument that actually supports why it should be in the format.
As long as the format is T2-T4 linear decks it's practically impossible for a card like Deathrite Shaman to be too good.
Its just the best card in the format. It is RAMP, HATE and STALL on a 1/2 for 1. It hates on any graveyard interactions for no downside. It ramps to 3 while also doing that. It also just extends the game 2-4 turns against decks that want you dead asap. Go back and look at the decks that didn't play DRS. Living End? Not a real deck then. Grisholbrand. Nice try. Snapcaster decks? Snappy only spiked after it left, and saw little play while it was legal. Its existence stifles lots of random decks.
People want to say goyf is too good for modern because its a 2 mana 5/6. A 1 mana handyman's toolbox of answers is 4x worse. I would not play a deck without 4 DRS in it if it were unbanned and you'd have a damned good reason to not play it.
The Temple gets the hammer. Eye is legendary and it is needless a banning on Tron. I could see WotC randomly banning something from a Gyro deck because they always seem to do some stupid unneeded banning.
Why in the hell would they ban Temple instead of the Eye? You need to draw and play and tap multiple Temple's to get more Eldrazi out quicker while Eye just makes them cheaper or free in mimics case. Eye essentially gives Eldrazi semi affinity even if your only able to have one out a a time. Banning Eye would lessen its power but the deck would still be playable. Also banning a legendary land makes more sense because multiples are dead in your hand anyway while multiple Temples are never dead in your hand.
And Tron was a strong reliable deck before Temple or Eye even existed, losing either isn't going to gut the deck into unplayability.
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I wouldn't agree with you. That's simply not the case. If you ban just Eye of Ugin or Eldrazi Temple, the other two cards are still a problem. You need to ban both Eldrazi Mimic and at least one of the lands to effectively stop this deck from dominating. If you ban just one thing, the deck would be slowed and weakened a bit, but not massively.
Banning either of the lands makes the deck half as fast and half as consistent. Banning Mimic as well probably kills the deck.
The Temple gets the hammer. Eye is legendary and it is needless a banning on Tron. I could see WotC randomly banning something from a Gyro deck because they always seem to do some stupid unneeded banning.
The issue with Tron is control end game is an inevitable with Emrakul coming down. Frankly, it was probably one of the most annoying aspects to play against Tron with. Can't counter the sucker, gets a free turn, and certainly cannot Path or spell removal it. We can easily have more control diversity getting rid of Eye, and allowing Blue Tron innovation to continue.
Eldrazi is a tribe that they want to revisit over the next few years and have ways of bringing them back or adding new ones. Let's say there are more than 3 lineages or since the old two are dead we get new ones. Then that means we get new broods, which the Eldrazi deck cannot grow for fear of having something like Eye in the game destroying value.
Temple is equal to Tron lands.Troublesome and need to be watched, but not destructive enough to look at the game.
Yeah, Modern is all about free spells like...well there are a few and laundry lists of game breaking fast mana like...uh...
You replace Mimic with Tarmogoyf and add some more control spells. It was already done in the testing moving from Processor to Aggro.
It's the eye and nothing else. Unbannings won't happen until there is enough data on a twin-less, bloom-less, eye-less format/meta results (which actually sounds very awesome and fun. Will actually be a fertile brewing zone) that being said affinity gets better even though there are cards in every color(and artifacts) outside of blue(mana leak works though) and black(creature removal is def relevant) to deal with the threats. Also burn gets alot better. Poison is still a deck but can be dealt with in almost all the colors. Blue and green have a harder time dealing with it. But yeah, no eye and you go back to "the healthy and diverse modern metagame" that wotc said they wanted with the twin/bloom bans.
It's the eye and nothing else. Unbannings won't happen until there is enough data on a twin-less, bloom-less, eye-less format/meta results (which actually sounds very awesome and fun. Will actually be a fertile brewing zone) that being said affinity gets better even though there are cards in every color(and artifacts) outside of blue(mana leak works though) and black(creature removal is def relevant) to deal with the threats. Also burn gets alot better. Poison is still a deck but can be dealt with in almost all the colors. Blue and green have a harder time dealing with it. But yeah, no eye and you go back to "the healthy and diverse modern metagame" that wotc said they wanted with the twin/bloom bans.
Also! Eldrazi can still be a deck. And a "fair" one at that. Expect more expo maps and green for sylvan to fetch out temple and you have a respectable midrange tempo/aggro deck which the format welcomes. Trondrazi becomes a thing and newlamog gets more play.
So, everything is the opposite of what you said.
1. You need to draw multiples.
Yeah, but what is worse in multiples? Eye. So, if you keep temple, 2 temples is way better than 2 eyes. 2 Temples can turn 2 Thought-Knot. 2 Eyes cannot.
2. Multiples are dead anyway.
Yeah, so ban the land that is already bad in multiples because you never need multiples. Wat.
3. Modern was not a format and tron was not a deck at any point before Eye was printed.
So, everything is the opposite of what you said.
1. You need to draw multiples.
Yeah, but what is worse in multiples? Eye. So, if you keep temple, 2 temples is way better than 2 eyes. 2 Temples can turn 2 Thought-Knot. 2 Eyes cannot.
2. Multiples are dead anyway.
Yeah, so ban the land that is already bad in multiples because you never need multiples. Wat.
3. Modern was not a format and tron was not a deck at any point before Eye was printed.
Eye doesn't tap, with Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth you can tap it for an additional black mana. You get a permanent 2 cost reduction.
This means that with eye you can chain cast plus get a potential tap mana. With Temple, you have to limit how you tap out your mana to play a card.
With Tomb of Yawgmoth with multiple Eyes you just tap the Eye for mana and legend rule and then tap the new one for mana to still get ramped. Tron was built before Eye living in extended built to combat Midrange during Time Spiral block which was the original blue version we see today that got outpaced from RG. RG Tron is consistent.
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I would say that a turn 2 Thought-Knot Seer following up a turn 1 Mimic is one of the most oppressive things about the deck (especially when followed up with a turn 3 Reality Smasher). The simple truth is that the deck can't do a turn 2 Thought-Knot without the Temple. The best it can do is a turn 2 Endless One for 4, and that's only if they have both an Eye and Urborg -- two legendary lands that are a major disadvantage to run in multiples. Unless they get a third land and isn't one or the other of these, they're stuck at 4 mana. What's more, they can't even get out a Thought-Knot or Reality Smasher with just those two lands on the field.
I understand people's gag reflex when they see 2-4 Mimics dropped on turn 1 because of the Eye, but honestly, without being followed up by the turn 2 or 3 Eldrazi, a bunch of 2/1's isn't that great.
My guess is Temple and Mimic. Without Mimic, the aggro kills would be impossible, as well as dropping several of them T1. I think that the Eye will remain.
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What does Urborg tap for? Black.
What does Eye tap for with an Urborg in play? Black.
So please explain how eye + urborg (and furthermore, tapping eye then playing another on turn 3) Helps at all in Eldrazi? You are producing ZERO "colorless" mana. Eldrazi NEED colorless mana to play, and as far as I can tell, there are not lands legal in Modern that get you to "4 mana" on turn 2 with one of that mana being colorless.
Leaving the Temple unbanned just leaves players with the ability to have the oppressive opening starts. Banning Mimic would just shut down that issue, but Wizards tends to ban the enabler cards or the cards that make something too consistent. So banning the Mimic isn't really what Wizards wants to do. It is the lands that make the Eldrazi decks strong, and of those lands, Eldrazi Temple feels like the one to target. Urborg and Eye are both legendary, which means running 4 of each is a realistic liability.
EDIT: And plenty of people hate Tron, especially by how little proportionally its played.
Prior to the Eldrazi decks taking over the format, Tron was easily one of the best decks, lagging only behind Twin and ostensibly Affinity.
Most people were assuming that Tron would have a rough time without Twin in the format keeping the "fast" decks at bay, but honestly the reason it's more or less dissappeared is due to Eldrazi decks being better Tron decks than Tron way.
This has, of course, led people saying that an Eye banning would hurt Tron, because then it wouldn't have it's late game search function. I hardly see this as a problem, personally, as a deck who's early game is "Cast Karn on turn 3" *probably* doesn't deserve the ability to search up an Ulamog or Emrakul later on. Equally, it doesn't actually kill Tron at all.
Of course, that's not to say Eye will be banned. I feel they are going to slowly ban the pieces of ELdrazi until they get it right; I doubt they'll ban both Eye and Temple outright. For now, it'll just be one to try to reign it in. If it continues being problematic, the other will be banned down the road. To be frank, there is legitimate reasons for both at this point. I honestly can't decide which is the worst offender; while Eye can produce a lot of "free" mana, it actually isn't *nearly* as busted with Temple out of the equation. Turn 2 Displacer and turn 3 Thought-Knot(At best, given no SPirit-Guide shenanigans) is not quite as problematic in this light. It actually only ever increases the casting of a given creature by 1 Turn in the early game, and turn 1 Mimics are a lot less terrifying if the ability to turn them into turn 2 4/4s isn't available.
Temple is a tad slower, and likely makes Mimic unplayable if Eye goes. Still, being able to cast a turn 2 Thought-Knot into turn 3 Smasher is a serious concern, which Temple opens up. You can also copy the Temple with Vesuva and the like, making it a bit more problematic.
So, if Eye stays legal, the deck becomes a bit more inconsistent and clunky, and can't capitalize nearly as well on obviously busted curve outs of Mimic-Seer-Smasher. Capitalizing on the "free" mana generated by Eye will typically be relagated to the Mid/Late game, and doing so will be much harder without Temple enabling turn 2 and 3 ridiculousness. Still, the ability to turn provide 6+ mana for free, even if it's not going to be occurring usually until turn 4 or 5, is concerning.
If Temple remains in the format, Mimics likely become unplayable, but extremely brutal curves and plays will exist. Turn 2 Thought-Knots and turn 3 Smashers are still incredibly hard to beat, but the deck will typically be relegated to one of these threats a turn. It also won't be common to get 2 Temples in hand, however I feel the deck will start running Vesuvas, or even go to a Tron package in this light.
So, the question is, which is better? The free mana from Eye is very difficult to capitalize on without Temples, whereas Temples get stifled a bit without Eyes allowing the card to do clearly busted things.
There are merits to both, and I doubt both are leaving immediately. My preference would honestly be Temple in this light (As it allows far more busted things to occur in the deck without Eye, than Eye without Temple), but I feel it's going to be Eye of Ugin.
Let's also stop for a second to remind ourselves that a couple of 2/1 creatures on turn 1 is not a broken start unless those creatures become HUGE on turn 2 and 3. If anything it seems like a waste of resources...
Barring SPirit-Guides (Which the deck has moved away from heavily), the best you can do is make Mimics into 3/3s on turn 2, and 4/4s on turn 3. Which, while concerning, isn't a huge issue. I feel that having the ability to cast a turn 2 Seer and turn 3 Smasher is far more dangerous, which only Temple allows. It's a bit of a toss-up, to be honest.
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my buddy and I were almost talking about the exact same changes the other day. Seems pretty fair
Yeah, Stirrings getting banned, a card played in a single T2 deck, a ban that would entirety kill Tron from being competitive ever again. How did I not see how reasonable itit? Smh, BGX fanboys, can't put up with a single bad matchup. What's next, Guide?
Rituals are not broken on their own. It takes a critical mass to make them useful. Why ban them now when ritual based combo decks are irrelevant? It doesn't diversify the meta it literally just kills off some decks that don't have a competitive impact and restrict people's deck building options.
During the combat step maybe but that's about it.
Aggro and Midrange are completely linear decks. They intend the play the game exactly the same every single time, same strategy and with as much redundancy as possible so that they're casting effectively the same cards in the same order.
When you say "linear" do you mean combo?
What are you even talking about?
Infect - Aggro (no fast mana)
Jund - Midrange (no fast mana)
Abzan Company - Midrange (no fast mana)
Burn - Aggro (no fast mana)
Affinity - Aggro
Eldrazi - Aggro/Midrange
The only successful combo decks are Living End, Ad Nausem, and Grishoalbrand none of which are considered Tier 1.
Edlrazi Temple should be the first card to go. multiple eye's do nothing, and 2 temples still let you cast turn 2 TKS after turn 1 mimic.
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With temple gone the best an Eldrazi player would most likely could do is Matter Reshaper or Thought-knot BUT would require a SSG AND a colorless source, the matter reshaper just needs a colorless source but is much more fair. Even if you play the Urborg with eye out and get the mythical 4 mana out of Eye and Urborg, you cannot play any of the REALLY heavy hitters, and as I recall most Eldrazi decks don't really touch the Wasteland Strangler anymore, which doesn't do much without some form of exile. Before we got TKS, reality smasher, and mimic the Black White Eldrazi decks were powerful but not a Menance, I would love to see them go back to that power level.
Those thinking Tron would get the axe for Eldrazi's sins seems very unlikely and from most of the Bannings I have witness Wizards tries their hardest to only hurt a single archetype at the time, like when Eggs was hit, they made sure to hit Second Sunrise not Faith's Reward. Regardless the outcome I hope they unban some cards, I believe Stoneforge probably would be fine, there are a lot of 4/5 and 5/5 in the format that can deal with the Batterskull, Tasigur and Zombie Fish. I would love to see Bloodbraid but I doubt it, as stated before K-command is stupid good and being able to BB into it would be disgusting.
Eight-and-a-Half-Tails, Faith & Wrath (Control)
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Intet, Dreamworld (Aggro/Control)
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Eye and Temple were fine with the BFZ eldrazi, it was the addition of the three major OGW ones that caused problems.
Thought-Knot Seer and Reality Smasher aren't actually stronger than any of the other insanely efficient creatures in modern.
Mimic is the problem because it's a 0cmc Tarmogoyf.
This guy gets it. When my SCG pro friends who broke the Mono-black eldrazi deck before the pro tour says its the best card in the deck, it simply needs to go.
Its just the best card in the format. It is RAMP, HATE and STALL on a 1/2 for 1. It hates on any graveyard interactions for no downside. It ramps to 3 while also doing that. It also just extends the game 2-4 turns against decks that want you dead asap. Go back and look at the decks that didn't play DRS. Living End? Not a real deck then. Grisholbrand. Nice try. Snapcaster decks? Snappy only spiked after it left, and saw little play while it was legal. Its existence stifles lots of random decks.
People want to say goyf is too good for modern because its a 2 mana 5/6. A 1 mana handyman's toolbox of answers is 4x worse. I would not play a deck without 4 DRS in it if it were unbanned and you'd have a damned good reason to not play it.
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I think it may be a while til we see DRS off the banlist.
It will be interesting to see if they take a card off the list to give a big shake up to the format. Something like SFM
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And Tron was a strong reliable deck before Temple or Eye even existed, losing either isn't going to gut the deck into unplayability.
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You replace Mimic with Tarmogoyf and add some more control spells. It was already done in the testing moving from Processor to Aggro.
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Also! Eldrazi can still be a deck. And a "fair" one at that. Expect more expo maps and green for sylvan to fetch out temple and you have a respectable midrange tempo/aggro deck which the format welcomes. Trondrazi becomes a thing and newlamog gets more play.
1. You need to draw multiples.
Yeah, but what is worse in multiples? Eye. So, if you keep temple, 2 temples is way better than 2 eyes. 2 Temples can turn 2 Thought-Knot. 2 Eyes cannot.
2. Multiples are dead anyway.
Yeah, so ban the land that is already bad in multiples because you never need multiples. Wat.
3. Modern was not a format and tron was not a deck at any point before Eye was printed.
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Eye doesn't tap, with Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth you can tap it for an additional black mana. You get a permanent 2 cost reduction.
This means that with eye you can chain cast plus get a potential tap mana. With Temple, you have to limit how you tap out your mana to play a card.
With Tomb of Yawgmoth with multiple Eyes you just tap the Eye for mana and legend rule and then tap the new one for mana to still get ramped. Tron was built before Eye living in extended built to combat Midrange during Time Spiral block which was the original blue version we see today that got outpaced from RG. RG Tron is consistent.
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I understand people's gag reflex when they see 2-4 Mimics dropped on turn 1 because of the Eye, but honestly, without being followed up by the turn 2 or 3 Eldrazi, a bunch of 2/1's isn't that great.
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What does Urborg tap for? Black.
What does Eye tap for with an Urborg in play? Black.
So please explain how eye + urborg (and furthermore, tapping eye then playing another on turn 3) Helps at all in Eldrazi? You are producing ZERO "colorless" mana. Eldrazi NEED colorless mana to play, and as far as I can tell, there are not lands legal in Modern that get you to "4 mana" on turn 2 with one of that mana being colorless.
Leaving the Temple unbanned just leaves players with the ability to have the oppressive opening starts. Banning Mimic would just shut down that issue, but Wizards tends to ban the enabler cards or the cards that make something too consistent. So banning the Mimic isn't really what Wizards wants to do. It is the lands that make the Eldrazi decks strong, and of those lands, Eldrazi Temple feels like the one to target. Urborg and Eye are both legendary, which means running 4 of each is a realistic liability.
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Prior to the Eldrazi decks taking over the format, Tron was easily one of the best decks, lagging only behind Twin and ostensibly Affinity.
Most people were assuming that Tron would have a rough time without Twin in the format keeping the "fast" decks at bay, but honestly the reason it's more or less dissappeared is due to Eldrazi decks being better Tron decks than Tron way.
This has, of course, led people saying that an Eye banning would hurt Tron, because then it wouldn't have it's late game search function. I hardly see this as a problem, personally, as a deck who's early game is "Cast Karn on turn 3" *probably* doesn't deserve the ability to search up an Ulamog or Emrakul later on. Equally, it doesn't actually kill Tron at all.
Of course, that's not to say Eye will be banned. I feel they are going to slowly ban the pieces of ELdrazi until they get it right; I doubt they'll ban both Eye and Temple outright. For now, it'll just be one to try to reign it in. If it continues being problematic, the other will be banned down the road. To be frank, there is legitimate reasons for both at this point. I honestly can't decide which is the worst offender; while Eye can produce a lot of "free" mana, it actually isn't *nearly* as busted with Temple out of the equation. Turn 2 Displacer and turn 3 Thought-Knot(At best, given no SPirit-Guide shenanigans) is not quite as problematic in this light. It actually only ever increases the casting of a given creature by 1 Turn in the early game, and turn 1 Mimics are a lot less terrifying if the ability to turn them into turn 2 4/4s isn't available.
Temple is a tad slower, and likely makes Mimic unplayable if Eye goes. Still, being able to cast a turn 2 Thought-Knot into turn 3 Smasher is a serious concern, which Temple opens up. You can also copy the Temple with Vesuva and the like, making it a bit more problematic.
So, if Eye stays legal, the deck becomes a bit more inconsistent and clunky, and can't capitalize nearly as well on obviously busted curve outs of Mimic-Seer-Smasher. Capitalizing on the "free" mana generated by Eye will typically be relagated to the Mid/Late game, and doing so will be much harder without Temple enabling turn 2 and 3 ridiculousness. Still, the ability to turn provide 6+ mana for free, even if it's not going to be occurring usually until turn 4 or 5, is concerning.
If Temple remains in the format, Mimics likely become unplayable, but extremely brutal curves and plays will exist. Turn 2 Thought-Knots and turn 3 Smashers are still incredibly hard to beat, but the deck will typically be relegated to one of these threats a turn. It also won't be common to get 2 Temples in hand, however I feel the deck will start running Vesuvas, or even go to a Tron package in this light.
So, the question is, which is better? The free mana from Eye is very difficult to capitalize on without Temples, whereas Temples get stifled a bit without Eyes allowing the card to do clearly busted things.
There are merits to both, and I doubt both are leaving immediately. My preference would honestly be Temple in this light (As it allows far more busted things to occur in the deck without Eye, than Eye without Temple), but I feel it's going to be Eye of Ugin.
Barring SPirit-Guides (Which the deck has moved away from heavily), the best you can do is make Mimics into 3/3s on turn 2, and 4/4s on turn 3. Which, while concerning, isn't a huge issue. I feel that having the ability to cast a turn 2 Seer and turn 3 Smasher is far more dangerous, which only Temple allows. It's a bit of a toss-up, to be honest.