Kamigawa's issue wasn't really Kamigawa itself, it was that Betrayers and Champions were really boring. CHK had a ton of powerful cards and great flavor, but the other two sets were completely just more of the same with no new power houses. I think the fear is more that player memories of Kamigawa are so bad they're afraid to ever go back.
I imagine we'll end up there eventually, but it'll probably be in the form of a different Japanese-inspired Plane that has a "dramatic twist" of actually being Kamigawa at the end of the block.
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Cyme we inne frið, fram the grip of deaþ to lif inne ðis smylte land.
That would be a lame twist. Better to separate the new Japan block completely from Kamigawa. Kamigawa isn't the be-all end-all of the Japanese myth theme, far from it. Ninjas and Samurai were about the only things the block got remotely right.
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MTGS Wikia Article about "New World Order"
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
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You're on a website dedicated to talking about MtG. You're only a few keystrokes away from finding out what cards are on the Reserved List. You're also only a few keystrokes away from finding out why some cards on the Reserved List got foil printings in FtV, as Judge promos, or whatnot, as well as why that won't happen again. Stop doing this.
That would be a lame twist. Better to separate the new Japan block completely from Kamigawa. Kamigawa isn't the be-all end-all of the Japanese myth theme, far from it. Ninjas and Samurai were about the only things the block got remotely right.
I don't think that's fair. It actually did pretty good by Shinto, and general Japanese folklore. It's just that it didn't do any capitalizing on the parts most people think of when they hear "Japanese Set."
I agree though, much as I loved Kamigawa's story, the plane has served its purpose, and we'd be better off with a new one.
No mention of Drogskol Cavalry? That's a Spirit tribal ability on a non legend, I think that's notable potential evidence. Personally don't believe we will go back to Kamigawa, though.
I hated this plane. I quit magic because the set was so poor and missed Ravnica, Time Spiral, and Lorwyn before returning in Alara. The plane reminds me of over costed and under powered creatures and a crappy form of transform. A lot of my friends who have played this game and stuck with it since the beginning pretty much stated that the worst time in magic was during Kamigawa. Like no one showed up to FNM to even play random games. Since the goal is to sell product, I highly doubt marketing would want to risk a year of sales on an already failed plane when they could introduce a new plane. It would have to be an absurdly busted set just to justify going back.
I agree. We should all only play g/x decks because they are the most objectively fun and anyone who disagrees does not know the truth about EDH. Everyone should just play their decks because interaction beyond high fiving about how many land are in play is unfun and equivalent to casting Stasis while kicking puppies. I for one will never play with anyone who casts tutors, removal spells, blue cards, things I arbitrarily decide I don't like but will probably cast myself later.
Anyone find it funny as much as the consensus that Kamigawa is a bad set, it features some of the most broken and useful cards in Modern? Jitte, Top, Glimpse, Goryo's Vengeance, Kira, Kiki Jiki, Gifts Ungiven, Ghostly Prison, Threads of Disloyality, through the Breach??
To be fair, most of those required other cards printed much later on to be broken. Jitte not included in this, however. Through the Breach, Kiki Jiki, Goryo's Vengeance, Gifts, and pretty much everything else of note wasn't a thing until *long* after the set came out due to printing cards which are broken in conjunction with them. At the time, the block was insular and played very poorly with everything else going on, and had very little relevance outside of itself. It left a bad taste in a lot of people's mouths.
You gotta keep in mind that the events on kamigawa happened millennia before the rest of the magic storyline - after all the protagonist eventually started the lineage that birthed Tetsuo Umezawa, the only human to actually defeat boals wayyyy back in magic's history.
If we went back to kamigawa, it'd have pretty much NO relation to the past block outside of general japanese-ness
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Commander Decks G MGC WB Teysa Tokens BR Wortsnort UG 23.5-No Edric URG Noncombo Animar GUB Damia Stax WBR Alesha Hatebear Recursion WBR Daddy Tariel UBR [Je]love-a Your Deck GWU Almost Critterless Enchantress WUB Sydri+Artifacts=WUB WURG Glint-Eye Combo
I would love a return to Kamigawa. That's where I got my start. Still have an intact in box theme deck from back then. Would love to see Bushido make a comeback. While we're at it, let's go back to Lorwyn/Shadowmoor as well.
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Standard: GR Pummeler
Modern: Mono-Red Control, Lantern Control, Eldrazi Taxes, Skred Infect
Pauper: Affinity
EDH: Gaddock Teeg Kithkin Tribal, Meren
Legacy: 8 Rack, Omnitell (Both in progress)
The biggest problem with Kamigawa, in my mind, is that it was riding the coattails of Mirrodin. They went from one extremely powerful and popular block with a ton of new, fun mechanics to a very artistic block that was nowhere near as powerful, and mechanically lacking.
The setting and aesthetics were great, though. They can return there, just as long as they can make the mechanics not terrible.
I feel Kamigawa has a better chance at coming back in side products, because I doubt they'd do an outright return unless they could test the demand for more Kamigawa flavored cards. I could see them releasing a dedicated Kamigawa commander deck. Once all the possible color pairs are used for their commander decks I think there's a chance that plane specific decks could become the focus. It would give WOTC a near infinite amount of creative freedom for the decks and also gives them measurable sales numbers on what planes the public wants to see the most.
I wouldn't mind a Japanese world with tropes like transforming DFC super sentai creatures, Golems stylized after mecha, destructive kaiju, and flying Monks. I also wouldn't mind a shapeshifting mechanic for Kitsune, Tanuki, and other Obake. And of course we gotta have Ninja and Samurai return. It wouldn't be hard to mix traditional Japanese myth with more contemporary influences.
Oh, no! From Toshiro Umezawa to Kirito-Kun. God have mercy...
I find this idea of a modernized visually japan themed block a dangerous trap. And this comes from a long time fan of Anime Industry and Japanese culture. This change in easthetics and style would more likely harm this hypothetical new plane or Kamigawa if they turn it like this.
I am fairly positive of a return though, but they will have to prove themselves all over from the beggining in this one.
I actually liked Kamigawa. No, it wasn't the most powerful block ever, but it was still cool. I always wanted an okagichi card, though. I imagined it as a 10/10 for 10 that was unblockable and indestructible back then. That wouldn't be notable today even though they said back then that it was too powerful to get a card.
Those people who think it is underpowered normally have not played it in draft, either at the time or more recently. I have done both, for the original set and for a couple of historical paper drafts. It drafts a lot better nowadays than it did then. If you made the set today a fair few common spells would need to be upgraded to uncommon, such was their power, especially the spirit based ones. Ghostly Prison was uncommon!
For constructed, you will note also that Diving Top (Legacy powerhouse), the red Shoal and Jitte (Legacy fair deck staple) are banned from Modern. *Looks around the room for banned cards from the last five years- sees, err a whole two* The power level of Kamigawa was weak? Try hitting the Grishoalbrand deck- Vengence, Ritals, and Nourishing Shoals all happy to leave you dead whilst you lay your first land and say "go", and Through the Breach is not exactly weak having two Modern decks built around it. That is a lot of powerful effects for a weak set with a Homelands-esque reputation.
Other notable csrds it gave us include hate bear board king Kataki, Kira, (played in Legacy Merfolk boards), Tendo Ice bridge and Disrupting Shoal, whilst Ninja bear Delver might not be the most powerful of decks its still needs its Ninja. The legendary lands are pretty strong too, and the aforementioned Ghostly Prison is a powerful effect from the days when enchantments mattered.
A lot of statements about specific decks are often repeated wisdom from at the time in the Mirrodin haze, echoed second and third hand and devoid of context.
Like the other much maligned set Fallen Empires, a matter of context is needed. The set was powerful in many ways, a lot more than the underpowered chaff of Standard today.
Oh, and FWIW it would be great to do a plane with no planeswalkers, I don't care where it is.
as Kamigawa was the first new world introduced after I started playing in 04, I have a bit of a fond memory even though looking back it was a terrible block, I'd love to go back and see it designed better
I must be one of the few people that actually liked the Splice Mechanic, the major problem was that it was made insular thanks to Arcane, if it were just supertype splicing instead of subtype splicing, it would've been fine, imo.
Also, if a Return to Kamigawa was to happen, the worst thing they could do is take contemporary sources. Stick to things like Shinto, Taoism, and maybe draw inspiration from the Onin War and the Sengoku period.
Kamigawa had some cool stuff in it, but Maro's said repeatedly that the block did so badly they'd rather make new Japan-based worlds than go back in a main block. It's like Homelands and Innistrad, I guess.
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I'd really like to see a "war world" akin to Tarkir but without the dragon escapade getting in the way. Vikings vs pirates vs ninjas, etc. mostly aggro in standard, but some snipers and whatnot. Tarkir started on the path, but the clans were still fairly similar, and we didn't see them facing each other much.
There is a war plane. We got a preview in it in the Planechase series (which most of those planes have yet to be visited). It's a place called Immersturm on the Valla plane. It almost feels Viking-esque and it would be great to have a set with Viking flavor (and gods) even though the Ice Age sets and several early sets were a bit Viking-esque.
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I must be one of the few people that actually liked the Splice Mechanic, the major problem was that it was made insular thanks to Arcane, if it were just supertype splicing instead of subtype splicing, it would've been fine, imo.
Splice was amazing. One of the first decks I made had a combo built around it.
I think if they'd had more time to test, they should have balanced the set so that cards didn't need the arcane subtype. I'm also certain that splice only exists because otherwise it would have been too good in limited or something.
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“Tell me who you walk with, and I'll tell you who you are.” Esmeralda Santiago Art is life itself.
You know, those things the catholic bishops wander around with to ward off evil spirits or...well whatever the original use was, anyway. Not at all kamigawa related.
Well, while I would both like a return to Kamigawa and also believe it is very unlikely, I would like to point out two things that might make it more likely.
The first is the Creative point that, simply, Tamiyo is fairly prominent in SOI. As a Moonfolk, she is from Kamigawa. If we ever follow her, it is not inconceivable that she goes back to Kamigawa.
The second is a Design point. Quite simply, Skulk plays extremely well with both Ninjutsu and Bushido. As an evasion ability, it readily enables Ninjutsu. Bushido is also a good foil for Skulk, as you generally have lower power until you block.
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I imagine we'll end up there eventually, but it'll probably be in the form of a different Japanese-inspired Plane that has a "dramatic twist" of actually being Kamigawa at the end of the block.
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
I don't think that's fair. It actually did pretty good by Shinto, and general Japanese folklore. It's just that it didn't do any capitalizing on the parts most people think of when they hear "Japanese Set."
I agree though, much as I loved Kamigawa's story, the plane has served its purpose, and we'd be better off with a new one.
To be fair, most of those required other cards printed much later on to be broken. Jitte not included in this, however. Through the Breach, Kiki Jiki, Goryo's Vengeance, Gifts, and pretty much everything else of note wasn't a thing until *long* after the set came out due to printing cards which are broken in conjunction with them. At the time, the block was insular and played very poorly with everything else going on, and had very little relevance outside of itself. It left a bad taste in a lot of people's mouths.
If we went back to kamigawa, it'd have pretty much NO relation to the past block outside of general japanese-ness
G MGC
WB Teysa Tokens
BR Wortsnort
UG 23.5-No Edric
URG Noncombo Animar
GUB Damia Stax
WBR Alesha Hatebear Recursion
WBR Daddy Tariel
UBR [Je]love-a Your Deck
GWU Almost Critterless Enchantress
WUB Sydri+Artifacts=WUB
WURG Glint-Eye Combo
Modern: Mono-Red Control, Lantern Control, Eldrazi Taxes, Skred Infect
Pauper: Affinity
EDH: Gaddock Teeg Kithkin Tribal, Meren
Legacy: 8 Rack, Omnitell (Both in progress)
The setting and aesthetics were great, though. They can return there, just as long as they can make the mechanics not terrible.
Oh, no! From Toshiro Umezawa to Kirito-Kun. God have mercy...
I find this idea of a modernized visually japan themed block a dangerous trap. And this comes from a long time fan of Anime Industry and Japanese culture. This change in easthetics and style would more likely harm this hypothetical new plane or Kamigawa if they turn it like this.
I am fairly positive of a return though, but they will have to prove themselves all over from the beggining in this one.
For constructed, you will note also that Diving Top (Legacy powerhouse), the red Shoal and Jitte (Legacy fair deck staple) are banned from Modern. *Looks around the room for banned cards from the last five years- sees, err a whole two* The power level of Kamigawa was weak? Try hitting the Grishoalbrand deck- Vengence, Ritals, and Nourishing Shoals all happy to leave you dead whilst you lay your first land and say "go", and Through the Breach is not exactly weak having two Modern decks built around it. That is a lot of powerful effects for a weak set with a Homelands-esque reputation.
Other notable csrds it gave us include hate bear board king Kataki, Kira, (played in Legacy Merfolk boards), Tendo Ice bridge and Disrupting Shoal, whilst Ninja bear Delver might not be the most powerful of decks its still needs its Ninja. The legendary lands are pretty strong too, and the aforementioned Ghostly Prison is a powerful effect from the days when enchantments mattered.
A lot of statements about specific decks are often repeated wisdom from at the time in the Mirrodin haze, echoed second and third hand and devoid of context.
Like the other much maligned set Fallen Empires, a matter of context is needed. The set was powerful in many ways, a lot more than the underpowered chaff of Standard today.
Oh, and FWIW it would be great to do a plane with no planeswalkers, I don't care where it is.
Maybe Emrakul could go there lol
Also, if a Return to Kamigawa was to happen, the worst thing they could do is take contemporary sources. Stick to things like Shinto, Taoism, and maybe draw inspiration from the Onin War and the Sengoku period.
Standard:
UR Ral Combo
Modern:
U Merfolk
R Goblins
Commander
RB Grenzo, Dungeon Warden
R Feldon of the Third Path
Art is life itself.
There is a war plane. We got a preview in it in the Planechase series (which most of those planes have yet to be visited). It's a place called Immersturm on the Valla plane. It almost feels Viking-esque and it would be great to have a set with Viking flavor (and gods) even though the Ice Age sets and several early sets were a bit Viking-esque.
BGU [Primer] Sidisi, Brood Tyrant BGU | BG [Primer] Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest BG | G [Primer] Polukranos, World Eater G
My YouTube Channel:
The Commander Tavern - a channel I just started where I'll post deck techs and gameplays. Please support by checking it out. Maybe you'll like its content and subscribe! Thanks!
I think if they'd had more time to test, they should have balanced the set so that cards didn't need the arcane subtype. I'm also certain that splice only exists because otherwise it would have been too good in limited or something.
Art is life itself.
Those are censers.
https://www.google.com.au/search?q=censer
You know, those things the catholic bishops wander around with to ward off evil spirits or...well whatever the original use was, anyway. Not at all kamigawa related.
Maybe that's how we'll revisit Kamigawa, Emrakul will utterly annihilate it and so they will get rid of the plane like that.
The first is the Creative point that, simply, Tamiyo is fairly prominent in SOI. As a Moonfolk, she is from Kamigawa. If we ever follow her, it is not inconceivable that she goes back to Kamigawa.
The second is a Design point. Quite simply, Skulk plays extremely well with both Ninjutsu and Bushido. As an evasion ability, it readily enables Ninjutsu. Bushido is also a good foil for Skulk, as you generally have lower power until you block.