This may sound like baseless speculation, but I do have some clues to extrapolate from. Funny enough the first clue is from SOI.
Note the art on this guy. He has the little floating things around him, which I can only remember being featured on Kamigawa spirits as their symbols of being spirits (I did some decent searching and couldn't find the name of the floating things). On top of that, and this could be because I saw the article just after noticing the art on this guy, the first thing Mark Rosewater said people ask for is to return to Kamigawa. It could be a coincidence, and it likely is, but it seems interesting that he formatted his article that way, then said much of what was listed is coming within the next 7 years. Might they tie the spirits of Innistrad and Kamigawa together? I mean, we have Tamyio here, too, doing research. Could it be that it wasn't just the odd power of the moon that drew her there? Or that the moon and the spirits are tied together on both planes or some other such thing? With Wizard's creative team getting so good at making sure the themes stay distinct and separate it seems odd that they would let a key artistic idea that helped define Kamigawa bleed into Innistrad by accident. Maybe I'm giving them too much credit, but I doubt it. They've been very good at hiding clues in things before.
Yes, but it is an extremely popular setting, and if they balance the block right, and don't have the broken/junk issue they had last time it would sell well. The problem was, I think, it followed Mirrodin, which was broken, and they were gun shy in development so they nerfed the heck out of everything so it wouldn't continue the brokenness of the Standard environment. They basically had to sacrifice a block to Mirrodin to keep people from quitting. I believe they said something to this effect in the past (I'm sorry, I don't want to dig that far back) and said that they realize in hindsight that they went too far. I'm not saying any of that proves anything (heck this whole postulate is based on one piece of art and MaRo saying Kamigawa before anything else in an unrelated article), but I don't think we can rule Kamigawa out.
A note, too. I thought it was interesting that MaRo included both Madness and Ninjutu as mechanics that would be unlikely to ever return unless they find the perfect place just after Madness's return in SOI was leaked, now we have that art. Again, it isn't much, but it is interesting that a professional word smith would would do that by accident. Before it starts, I know he also included a few other non-Tarkir related mechanics in his ramblings before he got to the list, but it was interesting that he chose those two in particular.
Edit - Oh! What made me think of that article is that he made a clear point that some of those mechanics are higher, or lower, on the list than they should be based on most criteria because public reception. So he made a point to say that the demands of the audience is a very strong influence on what they bring back and what they don't. Obviously some things won't be influenced by that (Force of Will in his recent article for example is unlikely to return even if 100% of the audience asked for it because it is SO broken) as they would drastically decrease the overall health and viability of the game for the next couple years, but something as harmless as a setting should be able to be influenced after the knee jerk reaction of "This set is weak and has killed Magic." wears off.
From wizard viewpoint it not popular. MaRo stated many times that both the setting and cards weren't popular and it's very unlikely that they will return to it.
Also just a single art on a totally unrelated plane is far from being a clue for a return block.
It's funny that every time it comes up on that blog, Rosewater goes out of his way to point out how poorly Kamigawa did with the playerbase at large, yet on the article posted to the mothership he just goes 'yeah a lot of people are interested in this one' with no extra comment. That's a very sharp change in tune. I also never quite bought the idea that they'd sooner scrub Kamigawa and start a new Shinto-zone from scratch when they keep nodding back to it; with Tamiyo (right now would be a fine time to kill her off with little fanfare and pave the way to silently drop Kamigawa from the known universe, but if that Sorin image is real she's not only alive but a primary player in the block), with the UG snake legend in the last Commander, with Arcane and Spirit tribal in both Modern Masters. It's also pretty clear that a LOT of work went into the aesthetic trappings of COK block. Trying to take a failed piece and redo it right is usually a waste of resources for businesses like these, but in this case I think they might be gearing up to try.
I would rather a new Japenese world than Kamigawa; they missed a lot of resonant tropes with Kamigawa and if they changed so much to make it more resonant, they might as well be making a whole new world altogether.
Personally, I wouldn't mind a Japanese world with tropes like transforming DFC super sentai creatures, Golems stylized after mecha, destructive kaiju, and flying Monks. I also wouldn't mind a shapeshifting mechanic for Kitsune, Tanuki, and other Obake. And of course we gotta have Ninja and Samurai return. It wouldn't be hard to mix traditional Japanese myth with more contemporary influences.
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MTGS Wikia Article about "New World Order"
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
PSA to everyone who keeps forgetting about the Reserved List:
You're on a website dedicated to talking about MtG. You're only a few keystrokes away from finding out what cards are on the Reserved List. You're also only a few keystrokes away from finding out why some cards on the Reserved List got foil printings in FtV, as Judge promos, or whatnot, as well as why that won't happen again. Stop doing this.
I would pay big money to revisit that Plane again. Defiantly one of my Top 5 Planes from MtG. Sadly I doubt that would happen - after the disastrous sales of the set WoTC has basically said that they would never go back. I doubt Hasbro would let them either...
the first thing Mark Rosewater said people ask for is to return to Kamigawa.
What you need to understand here is that he is getting these asks on his tumblr page and he goes on record (quite often) to explain that his tumblr followers are not representative of magic's audience as a whole. He has gone on record to state that by every metric they tested for at the time Kamigawa was a failure. Because of these reasons a return to Kamigawa is extremely unlikely, your best bet is the possibility of a new plane that takes some of the things that were done right in Kamigawa and fixes the other issues with the setting. It is likely, however, that we will continue to see hints of kamigawa in supplemental products such as commander because some people do like the idea of Kamigawa as a plane despite all of its shortcomings.
MaRo basically stated that the marked research showed that Kamigawa hits lowest on every metric they have.
However Kamigawa is one of the most requested planes on blogatog, where many people point out that they don't like the mechanics and I seriously don't want to see splice back again.
What I think is that the two blog structure made it definitely more likely to return to Kamigawa since they accelerated the block rotation from once a year to twice a year and 7 years are a long time...
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The Asian/Japanese flavor was very populair, the mechanics and plane itself wasn't. I do expect us to go to an Asian themed plane again in the future.
Yes it is, and Maro said that they would rather introduce a new plane if they wanted a Japan/Asia themed set than return to kamigawa.
The point is, both the setting and mechanics weren't well received, and for wizards trying to sell a 'fixed' unpopular product is more risky than simply selling a new product.
Kamigawa—I'm not sure if it's the popularity of the Commander format (all the rare creatures in Kamigawa block were legendary) or of the Japanese inspiration, but Kamigawa comes up a lot as a place people want to return to.
A lot of the stuff mentioned above is definitely part of our current seven-year plan, so please discuss amongst yourselves.
if Tamiyo (who will likely be featured in Shadows Over Innistrad/Eldritch Moon) were to return to Kamigawa, then maybe we'll get to join the trip.
Tarkir was asian themed and great.
Kamigawa was just not great.
Some of the tribes aspects have some fans: snakes, moonfolks, weird looking goblins...but that separately these could fit elsewhere (snakes in particular...). The whole ninja flavor was so bad.
Please, wotc, don't give traction to feedbacks that contained lots of trolls. Give us some good planes!
Return to kamigawa and/or to Theros would be the worse!
Tarkir wasn't asian-themed so much as having an asian basecoat. If you had changed all of the characters to look scandinavian or german, it would still have been basically the same except for art (and perhaps the Ojutai/Narset story).
Kamigawa had a few problems, admittedly. Moonfolk were trying to be used to replace merfolk because of the merfolk on land squabble. They used Samurai instead of Soldiers. They underpowered it. People didn't grasp the lore.
But slow your roll on down-talking ninjas. That's simply not acceptable behavior. Ninjas were probably the best thing to come out of that block. You could make a blue/green Mutant Ninja Turtle deck only because Kamigawa existed.
Back to (more) serious conversation though, Kamigawa is still a supported plane at this time. You can read about it on the mothersite, it has a link, and they made a 'walker from there. They're coaxing interest out of players to prepare us for a return, and I doubt it's far away. I wouldn't be surprised if they have some sort of cataclysm (so many planes do) to differentiate itself from our expectations, but they're setting up a return. I expect Ninjas, Samurai, Rat-kin, and Foxes to return, but perhaps less spirits, and maybe use some demons. The real question is why we're going back. After all, what got Tamiyo so interested in Innistrad's moon? I doubt it was simply the first/biggest mystery she found in the multiverse.
I'd really like to see a "war world" akin to Tarkir but without the dragon escapade getting in the way. Vikings vs pirates vs ninjas, etc. mostly aggro in standard, but some snipers and whatnot. Tarkir started on the path, but the clans were still fairly similar, and we didn't see them facing each other much.
But slow your roll on down-talking ninjas. That's simply not acceptable behavior. Ninjas were probably the best thing to come out of that block. You could make a blue/green Mutant Ninja Turtle deck only because Kamigawa existed.
Very fair thought. I was thinking, "no, you've been able to make that deck since Legions, when they gave us Mistform Ultimus." And then the slow realization that Ninja wasn't a valid creature type until Kamigawa made me happy.
I for one, loved the set. I enjoyed the mechanics, the setting, the lore. I also hope that Emrakul eats it and we never have to see it again. I would rather not deal with every other mtg player who says they hated everything about Kamigawa as they play their Umezawa's Jitte or Sensei's Divining Top.
This thread is for competitive decks only. Your deck is not Grixis Control, as you said yourself. A serious decklist with shroud and counterspells belongs here, not a for fun/casual decklist with bad discard. Sorry, but your princess is in another castle.
Anyone find it funny as much as the consensus that Kamigawa is a bad set, it features some of the most broken and useful cards in Modern? Jitte, Top, Glimpse, Goryo's Vengeance, Kira, Kiki Jiki, Gifts Ungiven, Ghostly Prison, Threads of Disloyality, through the Breach??
First of all, the flavor was beyond just Asian or Japanese. It was a specifically Shinto-themed set, and that was fantastic for anyone who likes that aesthetic. I recognize that it may be part of why Kamigawa failed overall, but I think it was a really interesting choice that deserves more credit than it gets.
Second, the mechanics are rather unfairly maligned. Splice would have been good if it hadn't been so parasitic. Bushido and Ninjutsu are undoubtedly great mechancis. Flip cards paved the way for DFC, which have opened up some amazing design space. Even Offering has a lot of potential. Almost all of the inherently terrible mechanics, like Channel, Sweep and Epic, are weighted towards Saviors, which is, admittedly, a terrible set.
Third, many of the issues with Kamigawa's playability stems from it following original Mirrodin block, which was so overpowered that it drove away masses of players. Kamigawa was then followed by Original Ravnica, which is one of the best designed sets in MtG history. All of this meant that Kamigawa, stuck in the middle, was largely filled with underpowered cards that didn't see much play. If it had been in a different era of Magic, it would not have been quite so hated.
Finally, and perhaps the market research proves me wrong given Maro's assertion on the issue, I think that Legendary is an amazing theme for a block. It encourages hugely experimental card design to really fit the bill of "legendary" and I think that this is the most compelling reason of all as to why we will never return. You simply can't have that kind of complexity at common any more within MtG R&D. And since NWO has proven to be very successful for Hasbro, I doubt we'll see that change.
Personally, I wouldn't mind a Japanese world with tropes like transforming DFC super sentai creatures, Golems stylized after mecha, destructive kaiju, and flying Monks. I also wouldn't mind a shapeshifting mechanic for Kitsune, Tanuki, and other Obake. And of course we gotta have Ninja and Samurai return. It wouldn't be hard to mix traditional Japanese myth with more contemporary influences.
First, I just want to say I'd like to see a return to Kamigawa; I think it had great flavor, a lot of unrealized potential, and suffered a great deal from being in the wrong place at the wrong time.
That being said, I want EVERYTHING you mention here. Wizards, Otaku block, please!
Tarkir had more asian flavor than that. Rakhasas, artworks, mongol-style bows... In my opinion, the flavor was better because it was not only japan like Kamigawa but lots of different asian cultures divided in the flavors of each clans. A more subtle thing.
But I understand your points and you may be right about Kamigawa, there is a lot of top down design space still available there , and maybe a set with ninjas without ninjutsu (the mechanic is cool but the name...)and samurai without bushidos would be decent...
Tarkir didn't include Japanese culture at all. The clans of Tarkir represented cultures stretching from the Middle East to China but China is as far east as Tarkir's cultural representation went.
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While I am a big fan of Kamigawa, there's also that Sultai is heavily influenced by SE Asia.
But yes, closest you had to Japan was Jeskai, and that's only in the 'heavily-Sinized' timeframe of Japanese history (~700-900 AD) which Kamigawa is explicitly after. (Kamigawa is rather clearly set in the early Sengoku Jidai, with a few differences.)
As long as it is not full of octopusses and krakens and tentacle h*ntai I'm all for a return to Kamigawa
I liked the setting, but if there is something that bothered me is that it was a bit too flat on the cultural mix. I mean... It was all shinto related and nothing else, same as Theros is all greek inspired.
Tarkir kind of hit a better spot for that: it was all about 5 tribes each one with its own culture and philosophy, while Kamigawa felt flat, with every tribe having the same basic culture.
Supposedly quite some time passed from the Kami war and the land itself was devastated by it, so there is space for a new ideas and new cultures to rise and be explored.
If you're going to change so much, you might as well create a new plane.
I would like to feel the difference between the serpent tribes and the moonfolk instead of just: some have scales and live on trees while the others are human rabbits... And do nothing different from humans.
The difference between Akki and Kitsune, and not just some are small and spiky and live on mountains, while others are basically humans with fur and a 1 or more tails.
I think you got what I mean.
No, I don't. The tribes of Kamigawa did have distinctions: Most Orochi had an out-of-color tapdown effect flavored as venom, the Soratami had bouncing lands as a theme, the Akki had sacrificing lands as a theme, and the Kitsune had damage prevention and lifegain themes.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
MTGS Wikia Article about "New World Order"
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
PSA to everyone who keeps forgetting about the Reserved List:
You're on a website dedicated to talking about MtG. You're only a few keystrokes away from finding out what cards are on the Reserved List. You're also only a few keystrokes away from finding out why some cards on the Reserved List got foil printings in FtV, as Judge promos, or whatnot, as well as why that won't happen again. Stop doing this.
Kamigawa is extremely unlikely to get a block dedicated to it anytime soon. The block effin' sucked, it was underpowered, the theme of the block was over-represented, the tribal components were to extensive (lack of creature type variety) while it lacked support, and many of the mechanics where, quite frankly, a pile of dung. All this led to poor sales and a number of people leaving the game either permanently or for a long period. It did have its bright points, but they where few and far between.
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It's about time for the reserved list to die, for the sake of Vintage and Legacy (And Commander).
Note the art on this guy. He has the little floating things around him, which I can only remember being featured on Kamigawa spirits as their symbols of being spirits (I did some decent searching and couldn't find the name of the floating things). On top of that, and this could be because I saw the article just after noticing the art on this guy, the first thing Mark Rosewater said people ask for is to return to Kamigawa. It could be a coincidence, and it likely is, but it seems interesting that he formatted his article that way, then said much of what was listed is coming within the next 7 years. Might they tie the spirits of Innistrad and Kamigawa together? I mean, we have Tamyio here, too, doing research. Could it be that it wasn't just the odd power of the moon that drew her there? Or that the moon and the spirits are tied together on both planes or some other such thing? With Wizard's creative team getting so good at making sure the themes stay distinct and separate it seems odd that they would let a key artistic idea that helped define Kamigawa bleed into Innistrad by accident. Maybe I'm giving them too much credit, but I doubt it. They've been very good at hiding clues in things before.
GENERATION 11: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig and add 1 to the generation. social experiment.
My Have/Want list (MTGO)
A note, too. I thought it was interesting that MaRo included both Madness and Ninjutu as mechanics that would be unlikely to ever return unless they find the perfect place just after Madness's return in SOI was leaked, now we have that art. Again, it isn't much, but it is interesting that a professional word smith would would do that by accident. Before it starts, I know he also included a few other non-Tarkir related mechanics in his ramblings before he got to the list, but it was interesting that he chose those two in particular.
Edit - Oh! What made me think of that article is that he made a clear point that some of those mechanics are higher, or lower, on the list than they should be based on most criteria because public reception. So he made a point to say that the demands of the audience is a very strong influence on what they bring back and what they don't. Obviously some things won't be influenced by that (Force of Will in his recent article for example is unlikely to return even if 100% of the audience asked for it because it is SO broken) as they would drastically decrease the overall health and viability of the game for the next couple years, but something as harmless as a setting should be able to be influenced after the knee jerk reaction of "This set is weak and has killed Magic." wears off.
GENERATION 11: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig and add 1 to the generation. social experiment.
My Have/Want list (MTGO)
Also just a single art on a totally unrelated plane is far from being a clue for a return block.
Personally, I wouldn't mind a Japanese world with tropes like transforming DFC super sentai creatures, Golems stylized after mecha, destructive kaiju, and flying Monks. I also wouldn't mind a shapeshifting mechanic for Kitsune, Tanuki, and other Obake. And of course we gotta have Ninja and Samurai return. It wouldn't be hard to mix traditional Japanese myth with more contemporary influences.
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
I would pay big money to revisit that Plane again. Defiantly one of my Top 5 Planes from MtG. Sadly I doubt that would happen - after the disastrous sales of the set WoTC has basically said that they would never go back. I doubt Hasbro would let them either...
However Kamigawa is one of the most requested planes on blogatog, where many people point out that they don't like the mechanics and I seriously don't want to see splice back again.
What I think is that the two blog structure made it definitely more likely to return to Kamigawa since they accelerated the block rotation from once a year to twice a year and 7 years are a long time...
Hands to the sky
Give a round of applause
For the great Miss Y!
The point is, both the setting and mechanics weren't well received, and for wizards trying to sell a 'fixed' unpopular product is more risky than simply selling a new product.
if Tamiyo (who will likely be featured in Shadows Over Innistrad/Eldritch Moon) were to return to Kamigawa, then maybe we'll get to join the trip.
I think the only returning mechanics should be Bushido and Ninjistu ( which since it has turned up in planechase It seems they like the mechanic).
The mechanics of the original sets were really bad, while innstrad works amazing with existing mechanics and many of the themes of magic.
Pioneer:UR Pheonix
Modern:U Mono U Tron
EDH
GB Glissa, the traitor: Army of Cans
UW Dragonlord Ojutai: Dragonlord NOjutai
UWGDerevi, Empyrial Tactician "you cannot fight the storm"
R Zirilan of the claw. The solution to every problem is dragons
UB Etrata, the Silencer Cloning assassination
Peasant cube: Cards I own
Tarkir wasn't asian-themed so much as having an asian basecoat. If you had changed all of the characters to look scandinavian or german, it would still have been basically the same except for art (and perhaps the Ojutai/Narset story).
Kamigawa had a few problems, admittedly. Moonfolk were trying to be used to replace merfolk because of the merfolk on land squabble. They used Samurai instead of Soldiers. They underpowered it. People didn't grasp the lore.
But slow your roll on down-talking ninjas. That's simply not acceptable behavior. Ninjas were probably the best thing to come out of that block. You could make a blue/green Mutant Ninja Turtle deck only because Kamigawa existed.
Back to (more) serious conversation though, Kamigawa is still a supported plane at this time. You can read about it on the mothersite, it has a link, and they made a 'walker from there. They're coaxing interest out of players to prepare us for a return, and I doubt it's far away. I wouldn't be surprised if they have some sort of cataclysm (so many planes do) to differentiate itself from our expectations, but they're setting up a return. I expect Ninjas, Samurai, Rat-kin, and Foxes to return, but perhaps less spirits, and maybe use some demons. The real question is why we're going back. After all, what got Tamiyo so interested in Innistrad's moon? I doubt it was simply the first/biggest mystery she found in the multiverse.
Modern Tallowisp Spirits - A Modern Tallowisp Deck UW
Eldrazi Ninjas - Summoning Octopus Jutsu YYYYAAAHHHH!
STANDARD
Naban Wizards
Very fair thought. I was thinking, "no, you've been able to make that deck since Legions, when they gave us Mistform Ultimus." And then the slow realization that Ninja wasn't a valid creature type until Kamigawa made me happy.
I for one, loved the set. I enjoyed the mechanics, the setting, the lore. I also hope that Emrakul eats it and we never have to see it again. I would rather not deal with every other mtg player who says they hated everything about Kamigawa as they play their Umezawa's Jitte or Sensei's Divining Top.
My Alter portfolio
Modern Tallowisp Spirits - A Modern Tallowisp Deck UW
Eldrazi Ninjas - Summoning Octopus Jutsu YYYYAAAHHHH!
STANDARD
Naban Wizards
First of all, the flavor was beyond just Asian or Japanese. It was a specifically Shinto-themed set, and that was fantastic for anyone who likes that aesthetic. I recognize that it may be part of why Kamigawa failed overall, but I think it was a really interesting choice that deserves more credit than it gets.
Second, the mechanics are rather unfairly maligned. Splice would have been good if it hadn't been so parasitic. Bushido and Ninjutsu are undoubtedly great mechancis. Flip cards paved the way for DFC, which have opened up some amazing design space. Even Offering has a lot of potential. Almost all of the inherently terrible mechanics, like Channel, Sweep and Epic, are weighted towards Saviors, which is, admittedly, a terrible set.
Third, many of the issues with Kamigawa's playability stems from it following original Mirrodin block, which was so overpowered that it drove away masses of players. Kamigawa was then followed by Original Ravnica, which is one of the best designed sets in MtG history. All of this meant that Kamigawa, stuck in the middle, was largely filled with underpowered cards that didn't see much play. If it had been in a different era of Magic, it would not have been quite so hated.
Finally, and perhaps the market research proves me wrong given Maro's assertion on the issue, I think that Legendary is an amazing theme for a block. It encourages hugely experimental card design to really fit the bill of "legendary" and I think that this is the most compelling reason of all as to why we will never return. You simply can't have that kind of complexity at common any more within MtG R&D. And since NWO has proven to be very successful for Hasbro, I doubt we'll see that change.
First, I just want to say I'd like to see a return to Kamigawa; I think it had great flavor, a lot of unrealized potential, and suffered a great deal from being in the wrong place at the wrong time.
That being said, I want EVERYTHING you mention here. Wizards, Otaku block, please!
-Chandra Nalaar
But yes, closest you had to Japan was Jeskai, and that's only in the 'heavily-Sinized' timeframe of Japanese history (~700-900 AD) which Kamigawa is explicitly after. (Kamigawa is rather clearly set in the early Sengoku Jidai, with a few differences.)
If you're going to change so much, you might as well create a new plane.
No, I don't. The tribes of Kamigawa did have distinctions: Most Orochi had an out-of-color tapdown effect flavored as venom, the Soratami had bouncing lands as a theme, the Akki had sacrificing lands as a theme, and the Kitsune had damage prevention and lifegain themes.
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
---
Numquam evolutioni obstes. Solum conculceris.
Pascite draconem, evolvite aut morimini.