Arguing that Marit Lage is an Eldrazi is akin to arguing that an Ant is an Elephant.
Well in card form, a Marit Lage token turns Emrakul into a chump blocker. So I guess she would be a pretty big ant.
I was thinking more in the biological sense than an issue of size, although power/toughness doesn't always equate to size in M:TG, else there are some pretty large human philosophers on Theros.
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[quote from="stankmaster5000 »" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/magic-fundamentals/the-rumor-mill/speculation/671261-did-wizards-hint-at-emrakul-or-marit-lage-on?comment=1"]"There's no heron in the moon! It's a shrew, a five-legged shrew, with a voice like whispering thunder!
The "five-legged" thing seems to stick out, to me. We don't know how many Eldrazi Titans exist, only that three got trapped on Zendikar, and two now died. Imagine, for a moment, being a creature of such magnitude that you couldn't even fit on one plane; there is more of you between planes and overarching them. A single hand, when viewed from a distance, would look like a 5-limbed animal (or an elephant).
I hope that we see either another Eldrazi or the root of Eldrazi come fall.
The "five-legged" thing seems to stick out, to me. We don't know how many Eldrazi Titans exist, only that three got trapped on Zendikar, and two now died. Imagine, for a moment, being a creature of such magnitude that you couldn't even fit on one plane; there is more of you between planes and overarching them. A single hand, when viewed from a distance, would look like a 5-limbed animal (or an elephant).
I hope that we see either another Eldrazi or the root of Eldrazi come fall.
We have only ever been told of three Eldrazi Titans. That said, considering the multiverse has been declared infinite in scope since the early days of magic, it is quite possible that there are more of them out there.
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I've attached a larger version of the Mad Prophet's paper to the original post. In addition, the piece of art that was used for the card is actually called "deranged soothsayer," which leaves no doubt that our prophet is seeing something terrifying in Innistrad's future. In addition, I've added another crazy bit of possible evidence to the original post.
Update 2: The Mad Prophet's art is actually called "deranged soothsayer," which leaves no doubt that he is seeing something terrible in Innistrad's future.
Now this is getting into crazy territory, but I've uploaded a higher resolution picture of The Mad Prophet's paper. Take that image and flip it upside down. You get what looks like two dots horizontally on a face and one dot underneath it like a nose. Then look at the art for Marit Lage. It looks like a very close version, drawn by someone insane, right? The lines spiraling up could be her tentacles.
Crazy territory is an understatement, we're literally seeing things now. If I had to guess, though, that scroll seems to depict the moon setting and probably affecting the tide in Nephalia, the town in which the Mad Prophet appears to be as you have noticed before.
The Moon, while not strictly speaking a physical feature of Innistrad itself, has such a profound effect on the world that the moon is worth mentioning. The commonly accepted belief is that the moon is a vast silver desert, much like the silver sand on the beaches of Nephalia. This year’s Checking In with the Planeswalkers seems to confirm it is made of a magical silver ore. The phases of the moon are thought to be significant in how strong the monsters of the world are, but it’s unclear if this is the truth or superstition. The people of Innistrad believe there to be a heron in the moon, and associate it with Avacyn's power. In Nephalia, the moon controls the tide and by extension the large number of geists brought in and out. Every year the humans of Innistrad celebrate Goldnight, the safest two days of the year because the moon doesn’t come out.
Also worthy of note, that figure in the top left corner of the image does look like a geist, but I'm not really sure what to make of that serpentine string with a "crown" at its end.
Isn't Marit Lage from Dominaria? You know, entombed in a glacier from the Ice Age? She's not an Eldrazi, so she can't just walk through the Blind Eternities to Innistrad, and I don't believe there was ever the slightest hinting of her getting a spark.
As much as I'd like to see her again, there seems to be little reasoning in her being on an entirely new plane.
The mtg wiki says, but doesn't cite, "The Argivian scholar Arkol thought Marit Lage was a planeswalker, but he was wrong: she is a being of immense power, able to move across the planes but not by the same means planeswalkers can." It seems unlike wizards to pull such an old character out of their pocket for a set like this, but nothing contradicts the evidence so far.
Arguing that Marit Lage is an Eldrazi is akin to arguing that an Ant is an Elephant.
Six blind men were asked to determine what an elephant looked like by feeling different parts of the elephant's body. The blind man who feels a leg says the elephant is like a pillar; the one who feels the tail says the elephant is like a rope; the one who feels the trunk says the elephant is like a tree branch; the one who feels the ear says the elephant is like a hand fan; the one who feels the belly says the elephant is like a wall; and the one who feels the tusk says the elephant is like a solid pipe.
The Eldrazi race is more than any one Titan, like ants, the queen commands others like cells rather than individuals. The separate Eldrazi can be different. Just like you and I are very different, but still human (or troll, in your case).
Just want to throw some fuel on the fire, but wasn't Shadows over Innistrad brought forward? I remember there being a lot of discussion around SOI being a horror set not being released in October.
And some vague idea that we where returning to it sooner then expected?
Lets look at a hypothetical line up before the 2 Block shift.
Villians Core set?
BFZ - OGW - Third Set
Core Set
Either a New Set or Return to Innistrad.
instead we get
Origins
BFZ OGW
SOI
Lets think about it from a creative perspective. Version 1 story probably goes something like.
Core Set - Villians hook creates some story moments that create beats toward the need for the Gatewatch
BFZ has a 3 act structure of Eldrazi 1, Eldrazi 2 + forming of Gatewatch, Gatewatch go Looking for Eldrazi 3
Then we get another Core Set - Probably this one would have had a Gatewatch theme, probably something like origins i.e. very focused on the 4-5 gatewatch members.
then we have a whole new world or return to innistrad.
So basically instead of a longer drawn out setup. The decision to switch to 2 blocks per year and a greater focus on continued story / character focus means.
1. Villians ditched, Orgins becomes or "hero backstory set" n.b. there was a fair amount of creative work here (2 new planes) plus a few barely known planes.
2. BFZ - OGW. Truncated space to tell the story + plus more pressure on creative.
3. then no breather, straight into the next story piece.
Based on a few comments on blogatog, I feel that there was a need for them to "gear up" their creative team to handle going to multiple planes a year. I also feel that there was a block removed from between BFZ and SOI innistrad.
So I believe that the OP is probably on to something with his story hooks, and that the timeline for us to get from Innistrad, back to Zendikar and then back to Innistrad has been sped up by about a year (or at least a Large and a small set, up to maybe 5 sets worth)
Basically I think BFZ was suppose to end with the Gatewatch realizing that Emrakal was out there in the multiverse and that they need to go look for her. They have made such a point of each of the titans having different effects, I can totally buy Emerakal having a maddening effect on human minds without needing to have a large "colourless matters" theme in the next block she appears in.
Also it seems to pat that they created lovecraftian horror monsters in Zendkiar then did a Horror plane in innistrad and didn't lay ground work to combine the too at some point.
Update 2: The Mad Prophet's art is actually called "deranged soothsayer," which leaves no doubt that he is seeing something terrible in Innistrad's future.
Now this is getting into crazy territory, but I've uploaded a higher resolution picture of The Mad Prophet's paper. Take that image and flip it upside down. You get what looks like two dots horizontally on a face and one dot underneath it like a nose. Then look at the art for Marit Lage. It looks like a very close version, drawn by someone insane, right? The lines spiraling up could be her tentacles.
While I respect your top-shelf theorizing here, I still think it's a bit of a stretch. Perhaps Innistrad will have its own Eldritch abominations, but the cults on Innistrad are devoted to demons (at least the currently known ones). If Marit Lage was there, her devotees would know her by name.
Now, perhaps they just haven't been shown - as Runo Stromkirk is stated to worship ancient and terrible forces - but that could just as easily mean demons and as any eldritch abominations.
I will concede that it's certainly an interesting point, but Deranged Soothsayer is synonymous with Mad Prophet. And Mad Prophets paper... almost anything could be read into that.
Plus, you're ignoring the obvious problems with your theory. You're emphasizing the 'five-legged' part, but it's also being called a Shrew... which is a burrowing animal. And while I suspected there was something in the moon before, you've at least convinced me that there is definitely something in the moon.
Crazy territory is an understatement, we're literally seeing things now. If I had to guess, though, that scroll seems to depict the moon setting and probably affecting the tide in Nephalia, the town in which the Mad Prophet appears to be as you have noticed before.
Good catch! That's an interesting alternate possibility.
Although honestly, I think Wayne Reynolds just had fun drawing nonsense.
Magic lore is tied to the game and mechanics. Emrakul is an Eldrazi. Eldrazi are colorless. Colorless (in whatever form) is a mechanic. Mechanics from two consecutive blocks need to be as different as possible for gameplay purposes.
Colorless morph/Ugin theme in Khans block has something to say to you, sir
That said, I also think that Emrakul on Innistrad is a stretch. One Eldrazi titan would mean many smaller eldrazi showing up, and that would be just... well, we've just seen it somewhere not so long ago, right? Unless Wizards decide we urgently need more eldrazi, as there are not enough to break certaincards in modern.
On the other hand, Marit Lage on Innistrad would be way cooler. Not that Standard needs more hugebasicly unkillable things, but from a flavor standpoint it would fit. I mean, Marit Lage is a black horror creature. Exactly what people of Innistrad need to be afraid of! Yeah, people of Innistrad need something to fear, otherwise it wouldn't be true Innistrad, right?
Shrews are also small rodents. Also: Emrakul isn't a she Emeria was. The Innistradi wouldn't have any reason to think of Emrakul as female.
says who?
Did you pay attention to what was said before you replied to it? Vestige of Emrakul is a card from Zendikar. On Zendikar, the only reason people refer to Emrakul as "she" is because they worshipped her as an angel called Emeria. Eldrazi actually don't have a gender, nor do they care about it. Forces of nature do not have genders. Hurricane Sandy doesn't actually care what her name is or what gender she is referred to.
Feminine pronouns are used because prior to the unveiling of the true nature of the Eldrazi, Emrakul was know as Emeria to the Merfolk. Emeria was female. Post release they are still referred to by the genders of their respective gods. Ulamog and Kozilek, Ula and Kosi, are referred to as male. However the Eldrazi do not have any recognizable gender. And moreover the Innistradi would have no reason to refer to them in the same way the Zendikari would.
Perhaps Innistrad will have its own Eldritch abominations, but the cults on Innistrad are devoted to demons (at least the currently known ones). If Marit Lage was there, her devotees would know her by name.
Now, perhaps they just haven't been shown - as Runo Stromkirk is stated to worship ancient and terrible forces - but that could just as easily mean demons and as any eldritch abominations.
Unfortunately, I'll have to agree that this is a strong argument against the Marit Lage theory.
But for the sake of being just a little more optimistic, Sanguinary Mage's flavor text does state that those cults are new, making it possible that the name of whatever entity they started to worship is yet to be revealed to them. Moreover, and particularly relevant to the fact that Marit Lage is based on Cthulhu, is how the names of eldritch abominations are referred in Lovecraft's work as "merely the closest that the human vocal apparatus can come to reproducing the syllables of an alien language."
So it'd be an amazing confirmation of these theories if a name phonetically similar to either Marit Lage or Emrakul was mentioned by the cultists in Nephalia at some point, although it'd also be interesting if Innistrad had its own entity as you suggested.
Since wastes now exist and one artist recently put a snow land art on his Twitter, it's possible we'll see snow wastes, soon. Does remind people of Dark Depths and glaciers, etc. and if so I'll probably buy a few fat packs.
Plus, you're ignoring the obvious problems with your theory. You're emphasizing the 'five-legged' part, but it's also being called a Shrew... which is a burrowing animal. And while I suspected there was something in the moon before, you've at least convinced me that there is definitely something in the moon.
Although honestly, I think Wayne Reynolds just had fun drawing nonsense.
Marit Lage is really only hinted at.
I don't really think I'm ignoring the problems with the theory; I was completely honest when I said that looking into the Mad Prophet's paper was getting into crazy territory. As far as the "shrew" point goes, while yes, both definitions are true, I believe we have to think about who is writing them. I would assume that the Magic writers have read an extensive amount of literature (-and since they commonly draw inspiration from many authors and novels, I'd say that's true), so they would put more thought into their words- more meaning. Innistrad has elements of gothic horror, which stems from the Victorian Period in England. A few hundred years prior to Queen Victoria, Shakespeare wrote a famous play called, "The Taming of the Shrew." Into the 1800s, the word shrew was still being used commonly in British literature. Put into context with the quote, I couldn't doubt more highly that the meaning of the word they are using is a rodent.
What you said about Wayne having fun drawing nonsense looks like that's exactly what happened. I reached out to Wayne to ask about the piece. -Now, if the art did hint at something, admitting it could get him in trouble, so he definitely wouldn't want to do that. But that being said, I'll go ahead and take Wayne at his word.
"The symbols on the parchment held by the Mad Prophet are gibberish. The art description requested that the symbols should look esoteric but shouldn't mean anything.
However, I think it's cool that you interpreted the symbols in that way. The angels shapes that you see are very appropriate, but purely coincidental. I think the scientific name for it is "pareidolia" - Where people often see faces and animal shapes in random patterns.
Best regards
Wayne Reynolds
WAR"
So the paper is meaningless. We still have the quote. Time will tell if there's anything to it.
As much as I didn't want to comment on this one, I have to concede that there may be some merit behind theories posited herein. Kudos. Here is my contribution, as half-behinded as it may be:
Didn't Ugin say something about the Eldrazi as a collective being the fingers of an immeasurably large, interplanar hand in a pond? If you attack a finger, the hand recoils. But the being is still there.
Something to that effect. I recall the UR where Jace and Ugin converse as the citation to that paraphrasing. At first I thought it had to do with the likes of the drones, but I think, and call me crazy but, we may see more of the same in Innistrad, be it a Marit Lage retcon, Emrakul herself (and for the purposes of specific planar conventions I am still referring to Emrakul as female although I acknowledge her agender trait - I myself am agender and yet some people still refer to me as male because I don't really care, but I digress), or some other Eldrazi which may or may not turn out to be a sort of Kozilek or Ulamog reincarnate.
On that note, I don't think that Kozilek or Ulamog are permanently dead, namely due to the way Ugin's conversation with Jace went. There is most assuredly more to their stories than that. The rogues' gallery cannot extinguish such monstrosities so quickly.
Well in card form, a Marit Lage token turns Emrakul into a chump blocker. So I guess she would be a pretty big ant.
I was thinking more in the biological sense than an issue of size, although power/toughness doesn't always equate to size in M:TG, else there are some pretty large human philosophers on Theros.
---
Numquam evolutioni obstes. Solum conculceris.
Pascite draconem, evolvite aut morimini.
The "five-legged" thing seems to stick out, to me. We don't know how many Eldrazi Titans exist, only that three got trapped on Zendikar, and two now died. Imagine, for a moment, being a creature of such magnitude that you couldn't even fit on one plane; there is more of you between planes and overarching them. A single hand, when viewed from a distance, would look like a 5-limbed animal (or an elephant).
I hope that we see either another Eldrazi or the root of Eldrazi come fall.
We have only ever been told of three Eldrazi Titans. That said, considering the multiverse has been declared infinite in scope since the early days of magic, it is quite possible that there are more of them out there.
---
Numquam evolutioni obstes. Solum conculceris.
Pascite draconem, evolvite aut morimini.
Crazy territory is an understatement, we're literally seeing things now. If I had to guess, though, that scroll seems to depict the moon setting and probably affecting the tide in Nephalia, the town in which the Mad Prophet appears to be as you have noticed before.
From this article:
Also worthy of note, that figure in the top left corner of the image does look like a geist, but I'm not really sure what to make of that serpentine string with a "crown" at its end.
What about Nicol Bolas?
Six blind men were asked to determine what an elephant looked like by feeling different parts of the elephant's body. The blind man who feels a leg says the elephant is like a pillar; the one who feels the tail says the elephant is like a rope; the one who feels the trunk says the elephant is like a tree branch; the one who feels the ear says the elephant is like a hand fan; the one who feels the belly says the elephant is like a wall; and the one who feels the tusk says the elephant is like a solid pipe.
The Eldrazi race is more than any one Titan, like ants, the queen commands others like cells rather than individuals. The separate Eldrazi can be different. Just like you and I are very different, but still human (or troll, in your case).
Elder Dragon Highlander started with Nicol Bolas. Alara was the first set to have cards made with commander in mind.
At least, that's the theory I'm going with
And some vague idea that we where returning to it sooner then expected?
Lets look at a hypothetical line up before the 2 Block shift.
Villians Core set?
BFZ - OGW - Third Set
Core Set
Either a New Set or Return to Innistrad.
instead we get
Origins
BFZ OGW
SOI
Lets think about it from a creative perspective. Version 1 story probably goes something like.
Core Set - Villians hook creates some story moments that create beats toward the need for the Gatewatch
BFZ has a 3 act structure of Eldrazi 1, Eldrazi 2 + forming of Gatewatch, Gatewatch go Looking for Eldrazi 3
Then we get another Core Set - Probably this one would have had a Gatewatch theme, probably something like origins i.e. very focused on the 4-5 gatewatch members.
then we have a whole new world or return to innistrad.
So basically instead of a longer drawn out setup. The decision to switch to 2 blocks per year and a greater focus on continued story / character focus means.
1. Villians ditched, Orgins becomes or "hero backstory set" n.b. there was a fair amount of creative work here (2 new planes) plus a few barely known planes.
2. BFZ - OGW. Truncated space to tell the story + plus more pressure on creative.
3. then no breather, straight into the next story piece.
Based on a few comments on blogatog, I feel that there was a need for them to "gear up" their creative team to handle going to multiple planes a year. I also feel that there was a block removed from between BFZ and SOI innistrad.
So I believe that the OP is probably on to something with his story hooks, and that the timeline for us to get from Innistrad, back to Zendikar and then back to Innistrad has been sped up by about a year (or at least a Large and a small set, up to maybe 5 sets worth)
Basically I think BFZ was suppose to end with the Gatewatch realizing that Emrakal was out there in the multiverse and that they need to go look for her. They have made such a point of each of the titans having different effects, I can totally buy Emerakal having a maddening effect on human minds without needing to have a large "colourless matters" theme in the next block she appears in.
Also it seems to pat that they created lovecraftian horror monsters in Zendkiar then did a Horror plane in innistrad and didn't lay ground work to combine the too at some point.
While I respect your top-shelf theorizing here, I still think it's a bit of a stretch. Perhaps Innistrad will have its own Eldritch abominations, but the cults on Innistrad are devoted to demons (at least the currently known ones). If Marit Lage was there, her devotees would know her by name.
Now, perhaps they just haven't been shown - as Runo Stromkirk is stated to worship ancient and terrible forces - but that could just as easily mean demons and as any eldritch abominations.
I will concede that it's certainly an interesting point, but Deranged Soothsayer is synonymous with Mad Prophet. And Mad Prophets paper... almost anything could be read into that.
Plus, you're ignoring the obvious problems with your theory. You're emphasizing the 'five-legged' part, but it's also being called a Shrew... which is a burrowing animal. And while I suspected there was something in the moon before, you've at least convinced me that there is definitely something in the moon.
Good catch! That's an interesting alternate possibility.
Although honestly, I think Wayne Reynolds just had fun drawing nonsense.
Nicol Bolas had a pretty rich history already when he was reintroduced during the Time Spiral expansion.
Marit Lage is really only hinted at.
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Colorless morph/Ugin theme in Khans block has something to say to you, sir
That said, I also think that Emrakul on Innistrad is a stretch. One Eldrazi titan would mean many smaller eldrazi showing up, and that would be just... well, we've just seen it somewhere not so long ago, right? Unless Wizards decide we urgently need more eldrazi, as there are not enough to break certain cards in modern.
On the other hand, Marit Lage on Innistrad would be way cooler. Not that Standard needs more huge basicly unkillable things, but from a flavor standpoint it would fit. I mean, Marit Lage is a black horror creature. Exactly what people of Innistrad need to be afraid of! Yeah, people of Innistrad need something to fear, otherwise it wouldn't be true Innistrad, right?
says who?
Abzan Traverse / Traverse Shadow / UR Kiki
TerribleBad at Magic since 1998.A Vorthos Guide to Magic Story | Twitter | Tumblr
[Primer] Krenko | Azor | Kess | Zacama | Kumena | Sram | The Ur-Dragon | Edgar Markov | Daretti | Marath
RJaya Ballard, Task Mage Mono Red Control Decklist
WNahiri, the Lithomancer Mono White Control Decklist
RGWUKynaios and Tiro of Meletis Aikido Control Decklist
UBGisa and Geralf Tribal Aggro Decklist
URGRiku of Two Reflections Non-combo coolstuff Decklist
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Unfortunately, I'll have to agree that this is a strong argument against the Marit Lage theory.
But for the sake of being just a little more optimistic, Sanguinary Mage's flavor text does state that those cults are new, making it possible that the name of whatever entity they started to worship is yet to be revealed to them. Moreover, and particularly relevant to the fact that Marit Lage is based on Cthulhu, is how the names of eldritch abominations are referred in Lovecraft's work as "merely the closest that the human vocal apparatus can come to reproducing the syllables of an alien language."
So it'd be an amazing confirmation of these theories if a name phonetically similar to either Marit Lage or Emrakul was mentioned by the cultists in Nephalia at some point, although it'd also be interesting if Innistrad had its own entity as you suggested.
I don't really think I'm ignoring the problems with the theory; I was completely honest when I said that looking into the Mad Prophet's paper was getting into crazy territory. As far as the "shrew" point goes, while yes, both definitions are true, I believe we have to think about who is writing them. I would assume that the Magic writers have read an extensive amount of literature (-and since they commonly draw inspiration from many authors and novels, I'd say that's true), so they would put more thought into their words- more meaning. Innistrad has elements of gothic horror, which stems from the Victorian Period in England. A few hundred years prior to Queen Victoria, Shakespeare wrote a famous play called, "The Taming of the Shrew." Into the 1800s, the word shrew was still being used commonly in British literature. Put into context with the quote, I couldn't doubt more highly that the meaning of the word they are using is a rodent.
What you said about Wayne having fun drawing nonsense looks like that's exactly what happened. I reached out to Wayne to ask about the piece. -Now, if the art did hint at something, admitting it could get him in trouble, so he definitely wouldn't want to do that. But that being said, I'll go ahead and take Wayne at his word.
"The symbols on the parchment held by the Mad Prophet are gibberish. The art description requested that the symbols should look esoteric but shouldn't mean anything.
However, I think it's cool that you interpreted the symbols in that way. The angels shapes that you see are very appropriate, but purely coincidental. I think the scientific name for it is "pareidolia" - Where people often see faces and animal shapes in random patterns.
Best regards
Wayne Reynolds
WAR"
So the paper is meaningless. We still have the quote. Time will tell if there's anything to it.
Didn't Ugin say something about the Eldrazi as a collective being the fingers of an immeasurably large, interplanar hand in a pond? If you attack a finger, the hand recoils. But the being is still there.
Something to that effect. I recall the UR where Jace and Ugin converse as the citation to that paraphrasing. At first I thought it had to do with the likes of the drones, but I think, and call me crazy but, we may see more of the same in Innistrad, be it a Marit Lage retcon, Emrakul herself (and for the purposes of specific planar conventions I am still referring to Emrakul as female although I acknowledge her agender trait - I myself am agender and yet some people still refer to me as male because I don't really care, but I digress), or some other Eldrazi which may or may not turn out to be a sort of Kozilek or Ulamog reincarnate.
On that note, I don't think that Kozilek or Ulamog are permanently dead, namely due to the way Ugin's conversation with Jace went. There is most assuredly more to their stories than that. The rogues' gallery cannot extinguish such monstrosities so quickly.
~Lil Kalki
Proud Disciple of the Church of the Wary