Nahiri is on flavor text already for SoI, next set having 'moon' in the title implies Tamiyo, Liliana is in the art for EMN, and Jace is in the art for SoI. Madness was already spoiled for SoI, and that works well with Tibalt, whose home plane (and preferred place to torture) is Innistrad. Jace is already part of the Gatewatch and Maro has stated Oaths would be for when planeswalkers join... so which oaths are we hoping/expecting to see?
R We haven't seen Emrakul's effect yet. Kozilek's torture was psychological, and Ulamog tore away at sanity. It's possible that Tibalt will side with the agony created by Emrakul, or that he will desire to stop Emrakul in order to continue having victims available. Since Chandra is already part of the Gatewatch, I don't see any other likely candidates in known walkers. G We might see Garruk again, but I doubt it. He's hunting the biggest and baddest prey available right now; planeswalkers. Though could be convinced Eldrazi are a bigger challenge, likely won't join Gatewatch until cured. U Tamiyo. With the moon, I think it's pretty likely. Whether or not she'll get a card is up to dispute, especially if Jace does. W Seems like she's angry at Sorin, but he isn't in the Gatewatch. Possible. B I would think they'll use Sorin just so they can have a multicolor Oath, but if not there's a pretty slim chance that Liliana will be willing to join, other than to turn it in for a favor against her demons.
Imo, I don't really see it being in Liliana's nature to join the Gatewatch. The Gatewatch is all about protecting the multiverse, meaning pretty much everything other than the self. That is the opposite of Liliana's core principles which are that she really only looks out for herself and doesn't go out of her way for anyone else. I mean, she knew that there was an entire plane in danger when Have asked her to come to Zendikar and she outright refused because she was far, far more concerned with her own skin.
As far as a black aligned member of the Gatewatch goes, I want Sorin to take an oath and become the de facto leader of the group because of his experience and power level. Joining a group that was created to fight the Eldrazi seems right up his alley.
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"Pop in, find a dragon, roast a dragon."
-Chandra Nalaar
I don't think the Gatewatch will get that many new members. Liliana is a given, and maybe Sorin too?
Sorin is considerably more likely than Lily. Lily is a villain through and through. Sorin on the other hand is pragmatic, but he does have a sense of responsibility. Lily's only sense of responsibility is to herself and only herself. She has no problem working with others as long as it is convenient for her to do so, but as soon as she has gotten what she wanted, she drops the other party like rock over the side of a boat. Her joining the Gatewatch would be extremely out of character for her.
Sorin on the other hand would join the Gatewatch quite readily, particularly if they have helped solve whatever matter was messing with Innistrad this time.
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It's about time for the reserved list to die, for the sake of Vintage and Legacy (And Commander).
I can't really provide any more solid argument other than to say it doesn't 'feel' right not to have the fifth color directly represented. <<Insert obligatory psychobabble about incomplete cycles and human nature..>>
===
I've had this theory that Ob-Nixilis's character exists as a foil to Liliana who can now become way more conflicted and interesting as a character. He's somehting far worse than a Necromancer who wanted to save her brother. He's a straight-up irredeemable MONSTER of a character who may just kill everyone and everything in the multiverse and not really give a **** about any of it. I mean, the UR stories (those I've read anyway) seem like a whole 'nother level of blackness.
That (to me) gives Liliana a slight chance at becoming more of an 'antihero' if not an actual hero. At that point could she make sense?
I can't really provide any more solid argument other than to say it doesn't 'feel' right not to have the fifth color directly represented. <<Insert obligatory psychobabble about incomplete cycles and human nature..>>
===
I've had this theory that Ob-Nixilis's character exists as a foil to Liliana who can now become way more conflicted and interesting as a character. He's somehting far worse than a Necromancer who wanted to save her brother. He's a straight-up irredeemable MONSTER of a character who may just kill everyone and everything in the multiverse and not really give a **** about any of it. I mean, the UR stories (those I've read anyway) seem like a whole 'nother level of blackness.
That (to me) gives Liliana a slight chance at becoming more of an 'antihero' if not an actual hero. At that point could she make sense?
Oh, and Liliana isn't a monster? She straight up slaughtered half a city for the sole reason that they where between her and her goal. She specializes in Mind Rape and Necromancy. She takes pleasure in ripping peoples memories out of their minds and straight up torture.
Ob Nixilis is a nihilistic omnicidal maniac, but Lily is a Sadistic Selfabsorbed <beep>tch. Please stop trying to make her noble, she isn't, she never was, she never will be. She was designed to be a villain.
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It is very possible we end up with an Oath of Liliana. I don't see any particular reason why she would not take an Oath while she made four demonic pacts plus a pseudo-one with the veil. She just need to take the Oath for selfish reasons like help on her quests from the 4 others.
Currently, her own conflicts are against true treats of the multiverse, she could very well be a new part of the gatewatch. It's not like she cannot break the Oath she is taking after all, and being part of it then betray the gatewatch suits more her character I would say.
Though it is still possible the gatewatch just never will be extended...
I find it extremely unlikely that a Sociopathic Mass Murderering Narcissist would become part of the Gatewatch. Lily is a villain, has always been a villain, and will always be a villain.
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It is very possible we end up with an Oath of Liliana. I don't see any particular reason why she would not take an Oath while she made four demonic pacts plus a pseudo-one with the veil. She just need to take the Oath for selfish reasons like help on her quests from the 4 others.
Currently, her own conflicts are against true treats of the multiverse, she could very well be a new part of the gatewatch. It's not like she cannot break the Oath she is taking after all, and being part of it then betray the gatewatch suits more her character I would say.
Though it is still possible the gatewatch just never will be extended...
I find it extremely unlikely that a Sociopathic Mass Murderering Narcissist would become part of the Gatewatch. Lily is a villain, has always been a villain, and will always be a villain.
I don't find it contradictory.
A villain could very well be part of the gatewatch. Traitors are the best kind of villains. Her relationship with others from the gatewatch is not that horrible, she is not viewed like a true villain or threat by Jace, so they could very well accept her.
I can't think of any sociopathic narcissist who would not take the opportunity.
It goes straight against her established personality though. She does not want to be beholden to *anyone*, that is the entire point of her character arc, joining the Gatewatch would run counter to that. So, no, I do not believe she will. The black aligned planeswalker most likely to join the Gatewatch would be Sorin, because it fits with his established character.
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It's about time for the reserved list to die, for the sake of Vintage and Legacy (And Commander).
It is very possible we end up with an Oath of Liliana. I don't see any particular reason why she would not take an Oath while she made four demonic pacts plus a pseudo-one with the veil. She just need to take the Oath for selfish reasons like help on her quests from the 4 others.
Currently, her own conflicts are against true treats of the multiverse, she could very well be a new part of the gatewatch. It's not like she cannot break the Oath she is taking after all, and being part of it then betray the gatewatch suits more her character I would say.
Though it is still possible the gatewatch just never will be extended...
I find it extremely unlikely that a Sociopathic Mass Murderering Narcissist would become part of the Gatewatch. Lily is a villain, has always been a villain, and will always be a villain.
I'm starting to get the feeling you really don't like Liliana. I understand why, I don't like her either, but it feels like you take it too seriously sometimes. Remember: MtG is fiction.
I still see Sorin eventually filling the role of black Gatewatch member, though it's funny that no-one brings up how many people he must have killed in his millenia-long lifespan. I suppose it helps that he doesn't come off as quite so insufferable, he's more like Severus Snape than Draco Malfoy.
I doubt Garruk would join Gatewatch even if he wasn't a cursed manhunting abomination; even at his best, he wasn't exactly a people person. Being raised from childhood by beasts while having only your own father and a tyrannical landlord as references for humanity will do that to you.
MTGS Wikia Article about "New World Order"
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
PSA to everyone who keeps forgetting about the Reserved List:
You're on a website dedicated to talking about MtG. You're only a few keystrokes away from finding out what cards are on the Reserved List. You're also only a few keystrokes away from finding out why some cards on the Reserved List got foil printings in FtV, as Judge promos, or whatnot, as well as why that won't happen again. Stop doing this.
It is very possible we end up with an Oath of Liliana. I don't see any particular reason why she would not take an Oath while she made four demonic pacts plus a pseudo-one with the veil. She just need to take the Oath for selfish reasons like help on her quests from the 4 others.
Currently, her own conflicts are against true treats of the multiverse, she could very well be a new part of the gatewatch. It's not like she cannot break the Oath she is taking after all, and being part of it then betray the gatewatch suits more her character I would say.
Though it is still possible the gatewatch just never will be extended...
I find it extremely unlikely that a Sociopathic Mass Murderering Narcissist would become part of the Gatewatch. Lily is a villain, has always been a villain, and will always be a villain.
I'm starting to get the feeling you really don't like Liliana. I understand why, I don't like her either, but it feels like you take it too seriously sometimes. Remember: MtG is fiction.
I still see Sorin eventually filling the role of black Gatewatch member, though it's funny that no-one brings up how many people he must have killed in his millenia-long lifespan. I suppose it helps that he doesn't come off as quite so insufferable, he's more like Severus Snape than Draco Malfoy.
You're kidding right? I friggin' love her character, as *what she was created as*. Changing a character for no good reason (and let's be honest, being the only origins walker not part of the gatewatch is not a good reason) makes fans of both the game and the character to get a little cranky. She was created as a villain, everything she has done so far has been self-centered and villainous, changing it now would be incredibly horrid storytelling, and I am pretty sure we've come a long way since the Invasion days.
But hey, you're free to feel differently.
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It is very possible we end up with an Oath of Liliana. I don't see any particular reason why she would not take an Oath while she made four demonic pacts plus a pseudo-one with the veil. She just need to take the Oath for selfish reasons like help on her quests from the 4 others.
Currently, her own conflicts are against true treats of the multiverse, she could very well be a new part of the gatewatch. It's not like she cannot break the Oath she is taking after all, and being part of it then betray the gatewatch suits more her character I would say.
Though it is still possible the gatewatch just never will be extended...
I find it extremely unlikely that a Sociopathic Mass Murderering Narcissist would become part of the Gatewatch. Lily is a villain, has always been a villain, and will always be a villain.
I don't find it contradictory.
A villain could very well be part of the gatewatch. Traitors are the best kind of villains. Her relationship with others from the gatewatch is not that horrible, she is not viewed like a true villain or threat by Jace, so they could very well accept her.
I can't think of any sociopathic narcissist who would not take the opportunity.
It goes straight against her established personality though. She does not want to be beholden to *anyone*, that is the entire point of her character arc, joining the Gatewatch would run counter to that. So, no, I do not believe she will. The black aligned planeswalker most likely to join the Gatewatch would be Sorin, because it fits with his established character.
I'm with you on this matter,but Lilliana is very popular and market research trumps storytelling in this age.So they'll give her an oath and if it helps with sales 180 her character.Thats the unfortunate truth I've come to accept after battle of zendikar,all side characters will fall by the wayside and the origin five will take center stage.
Me:"Something is wrong with innistrad's moon?"
Wotc:"Y'know who would be great for that?"
Me:"Tamiyo!"
Wotc:"Oh you mean Jace!"
Me:"Why?"
We all know Ugin still has interest in the Eldrazi. I don't really expect oaths to happen again in the future, at least in card form, but if they do, I wouldn't be shocked if we at some point got a colorless oath for Ugin. While the Fantastic 4 dealt with the 2 Eldrazi in a way Ugin was certainly displeased with, their goals are still the same, to deal with the Eldrazi and protect the multiverse. Ugin just believes they are an integral part of it and should be both studied and kept contained instead of destroyed. If his theory is correct that they are a necessary "evil" then we will find out for sure in future sets when the loss of the 2 starts to actually alter something. At that point the Fantastic 4 could certainly want to team up with Ugin to help restore balance. Ugin might actually become the captain of the team kinda like how the dragon lords are captains of their "people" on Tarkir.
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All your base are belong to us!
RIP Batman guy. I hope somebody picks up the slack now that you are gone. Sick children need their Batman.
Jace isn't visiting Innistrad because of the moon. He's visiting Innistrad to find Sorin and Nahiri as Ugin instructed. Being a telepath, Jace is a natural fit for finding, well, just about anything. The fact that something appears to be up with the moon means Tamiyo might play a role. Who knows, perhaps she and Tibalt both will play vastly expanded roles in the story this time? It wouldn't be the first time a seemingly footnote character got a major plot upgrade.
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MTGS Wikia Article about "New World Order"
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
PSA to everyone who keeps forgetting about the Reserved List:
You're on a website dedicated to talking about MtG. You're only a few keystrokes away from finding out what cards are on the Reserved List. You're also only a few keystrokes away from finding out why some cards on the Reserved List got foil printings in FtV, as Judge promos, or whatnot, as well as why that won't happen again. Stop doing this.
It is very possible we end up with an Oath of Liliana. I don't see any particular reason why she would not take an Oath while she made four demonic pacts plus a pseudo-one with the veil. She just need to take the Oath for selfish reasons like help on her quests from the 4 others.
Currently, her own conflicts are against true treats of the multiverse, she could very well be a new part of the gatewatch. It's not like she cannot break the Oath she is taking after all, and being part of it then betray the gatewatch suits more her character I would say.
Though it is still possible the gatewatch just never will be extended...
I find it extremely unlikely that a Sociopathic Mass Murderering Narcissist would become part of the Gatewatch. Lily is a villain, has always been a villain, and will always be a villain.
I don't find it contradictory.
A villain could very well be part of the gatewatch. Traitors are the best kind of villains. Her relationship with others from the gatewatch is not that horrible, she is not viewed like a true villain or threat by Jace, so they could very well accept her.
I can't think of any sociopathic narcissist who would not take the opportunity.
It goes straight against her established personality though. She does not want to be beholden to *anyone*, that is the entire point of her character arc, joining the Gatewatch would run counter to that. So, no, I do not believe she will. The black aligned planeswalker most likely to join the Gatewatch would be Sorin, because it fits with his established character.
I'm with you on this matter,but Lilliana is very popular and market research trumps storytelling in this age.So they'll give her an oath and if it helps with sales 180 her character.Thats the unfortunate truth I've come to accept after battle of zendikar,all side characters will fall by the wayside and the origin five will take center stage.
Me:"Something is wrong with innistrad's moon?"
Wotc:"Y'know who would be great for that?"
Me:"Tamiyo!"
Wotc:"Oh you mean Jace!"
Me:"Why?"
They have killed off or ignored plenty of popular characters over the years. To be fair some of them had it coming (*cough*Urza*cough*), for others it was just good storytelling (occasional tragedy makes the stories better, poor Venser though).
We all know Ugin still has interest in the Eldrazi. I don't really expect oaths to happen again in the future, at least in card form, but if they do, I wouldn't be shocked if we at some point got a colorless oath for Ugin. While the Fantastic 4 dealt with the 2 Eldrazi in a way Ugin was certainly displeased with, their goals are still the same, to deal with the Eldrazi and protect the multiverse. Ugin just believes they are an integral part of it and should be both studied and kept contained instead of destroyed. If his theory is correct that they are a necessary "evil" then we will find out for sure in future sets when the loss of the 2 starts to actually alter something. At that point the Fantastic 4 could certainly want to team up with Ugin to help restore balance. Ugin might actually become the captain of the team kinda like how the dragon lords are captains of their "people" on Tarkir.
We have gotten confirmation from an official source (specifically MaRo) that we will be getting more oaths in Legendary Enchantment form as the Gatewatch acquires new members. This is not in question, at all.
Jace isn't visiting Innistrad because of the moon. He's visiting Innistrad to find Sorin and Nahiri as Ugin instructed. Being a telepath, Jace is a natural fit for finding, well, just about anything. The fact that something appears to be up with the moon means Tamiyo might play a role. Who knows, perhaps she and Tibalt both will play vastly expanded roles in the story this time? It wouldn't be the first time a seemingly footnote character got a major plot upgrade.
Tamiyo will have some presence in the new block as she is directly referenced in the flavor text on one of the leaked cards. Specifically on Pore Over the Pages.
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It's about time for the reserved list to die, for the sake of Vintage and Legacy (And Commander).
Tamiyo will have some presence in the new block as she is directly referenced in the flavor text on one of the leaked cards. Specifically on Pore Over the Pages.
To be fair, they talk about her in a past tense manner. She could be dead. Or werewolved or vamp'd or zombified, or any other number of things. It was her notes they found, she likely won't show up til the second set I estimate.
Quote from Krishnath > »
I friggin' love her character, as *what she was created as*. Changing a character for no good reason (and let's be honest, being the only origins walker not part of the gatewatch is not a good reason) makes fans of both the game and the character to get a little cranky.
Snape wasn't the bad guy. Odysseus did everything to get back home to his wife. McGonagal was taking Harry to the quidditch team, not to yell at him. The Big Bad Wolf was just trying to eat. Magneto didn't want mutants in concentration camps.
I could go on, at length, but suffice to say a good villain should never see themselves as a villain. Lil killed her brother, lost power to the Mending, and made four pacts. That's a long history of possible reasons her "villainy" is less one-dimensional than you present it to be.
Dr. Doom just wanted more time with his mom; then revenge. Maybe Lily wanted more Josu. They'll give us reason in the story soon, I'm sure.
Tamiyo will have some presence in the new block as she is directly referenced in the flavor text on one of the leaked cards. Specifically on Pore Over the Pages.
To be fair, they talk about her in a past tense manner. She could be dead. Or werewolved or vamp'd or zombified, or any other number of things. It was her notes they found, she likely won't show up til the second set I estimate.
Quote from Krishnath > »
I friggin' love her character, as *what she was created as*. Changing a character for no good reason (and let's be honest, being the only origins walker not part of the gatewatch is not a good reason) makes fans of both the game and the character to get a little cranky.
Snape wasn't the bad guy. Odysseus did everything to get back home to his wife. McGonagal was taking Harry to the quidditch team, not to yell at him. The Big Bad Wolf was just trying to eat. Magneto didn't want mutants in concentration camps.
I could go on, at length, but suffice to say a good villain should never see themselves as a villain. Lil killed her brother, lost power to the Mending, and made four pacts. That's a long history of possible reasons her "villainy" is less one-dimensional than you present it to be.
Dr. Doom just wanted more time with his mom; then revenge. Maybe Lily wanted more Josu. They'll give us reason in the story soon, I'm sure.
Except, Lily totally sees herself as a villain, she is a friggin necromancer, she murders and kills people, then reanimates their corpses because it is convenient for her, she also enjoys ripping peoples memories from their minds. She is, and I reiterate: A sociopathic mass murdering narcissist.
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It's about time for the reserved list to die, for the sake of Vintage and Legacy (And Commander).
It is very possible we end up with an Oath of Liliana. I don't see any particular reason why she would not take an Oath while she made four demonic pacts plus a pseudo-one with the veil. She just need to take the Oath for selfish reasons like help on her quests from the 4 others.
Currently, her own conflicts are against true treats of the multiverse, she could very well be a new part of the gatewatch. It's not like she cannot break the Oath she is taking after all, and being part of it then betray the gatewatch suits more her character I would say.
Though it is still possible the gatewatch just never will be extended...
I find it extremely unlikely that a Sociopathic Mass Murderering Narcissist would become part of the Gatewatch. Lily is a villain, has always been a villain, and will always be a villain.
I don't find it contradictory.
A villain could very well be part of the gatewatch. Traitors are the best kind of villains. Her relationship with others from the gatewatch is not that horrible, she is not viewed like a true villain or threat by Jace, so they could very well accept her.
I can't think of any sociopathic narcissist who would not take the opportunity.
It goes straight against her established personality though. She does not want to be beholden to *anyone*, that is the entire point of her character arc, joining the Gatewatch would run counter to that. So, no, I do not believe she will. The black aligned planeswalker most likely to join the Gatewatch would be Sorin, because it fits with his established character.
Good point. I forgot she is not beholden to her 4 demons and the veil.
2 Demons now. And she isn't beholden to them, they own her soul. As in, when she kicks the bucket, they get her soul. If she was beholden to them, she wouldn't have been able to lay a finger on either Kothoped nor Griselbrand, and she killed both of them.
She is not beholden to the veil either. It grants her power and it is trying to possess her, and due to its nature as a cursed artifact, she can't get rid of it. But it does not control her directly even if it is attempting to influence her decisions.
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The only way I could see Lili taking on an Oath is if a) she knew full well she could renege on it without further consequences when it suited her (which would be a vast improvement on her current troublesome creditors), and b) it would enable her to be rid of at least one of those aforementioned creditors. IF (and it's a big 'if' ) she felt joining the Gatewatch would mean one or two less demons, one (million) less disembodied Onakke voices, or maybe even one less Raven Man, then just maybe she might consider it. But with no intent of actually being constrained by it in any way. And if the others agree to that, then they're idiots.
But I agree with Krishnath - Lili really doesn't sit well as someone who should be shoe-horned into the team. Sorin could give a potential B (in part) oath, but even then I don't think he really fits the type. He's spent over 6 millenia doing his own thing, and it may just be that the whole trouble Nahiri is causing is because he was piss-poor at keeping his side of a previous deal. Why would he get himself entangled in another one?
Really, I just hope they don't feel the need to complete the cycle just for the sake of completing it. If they're going to grow the Gatewatch, it should be done naturally and organically, bringing in someone that doesn't feel forced.
Tamiyo will have some presence in the new block as she is directly referenced in the flavor text on one of the leaked cards. Specifically on Pore Over the Pages.
To be fair, they talk about her in a past tense manner. She could be dead. Or werewolved or vamp'd or zombified, or any other number of things. It was her notes they found, she likely won't show up til the second set I estimate.
I have a feeling he'll stumble on her research while exploring Jenrik's tower. Something like Jace wanted to speak with the two moon experts, in order to find out what's going on, only to discover the tower in ruins, or abandonned. (I would be extremely sad to see Tamiyo die )
I agree with Krishnath - Lili really doesn't sit well as someone who should be shoe-horned into the team.
Really, I just hope they don't feel the need to complete the cycle just for the sake of completing it. If they're going to grow the Gatewatch, it should be done naturally and organically, bringing in someone that doesn't feel forced.
Batman was part of the Justice League, despite not being big on teams. Only when they realized he'd made plans of how to kill the others was he even at risk of getting kicked out (but quit instead). Now, I'm not calling Batman a villain, but I am stating that some people can join a team and have it not work out. I think Liliana will join, even if just as an honorary member or somesuch. Most of her actions so far could be rationalized, especially with the curse from the veil.
I think Sorin will be our first multicolored Oath, in Black/White.
Tamiyo will do another blue Oath.
But I still wonder about green. Werewolf planes walker? Would be cool.
I agree with Krishnath - Lili really doesn't sit well as someone who should be shoe-horned into the team.
Really, I just hope they don't feel the need to complete the cycle just for the sake of completing it. If they're going to grow the Gatewatch, it should be done naturally and organically, bringing in someone that doesn't feel forced.
Batman was part of the Justice League, despite not being big on teams. Only when they realized he'd made plans of how to kill the others was he even at risk of getting kicked out (but quit instead). Now, I'm not calling Batman a villain, but I am stating that some people can join a team and have it not work out. I think Liliana will join, even if just as an honorary member or somesuch. Most of her actions so far could be rationalized, especially with the curse from the veil.
I think Sorin will be our first multicolored Oath, in Black/White.
Tamiyo will do another blue Oath.
But I still wonder about green. Werewolf planes walker? Would be cool.
Yes, but Batman wasn't a Sociopathic Mass Murdering <insert term for female dog here>. Lily on the other hand is. As I have reiterated many times, Lily is a villain, not a hero.
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Yes, but Batman wasn't a Sociopathic Mass Murdering <insert term for female dog here>. Lily on the other hand is. As I have reiterated many times, Lily is a villain, not a hero.
You've claimed a few times she killed half of Thraben. Have you provided a source for that, yet? She killed Angels, but could be argued self defense. She raised the dead, but that's basically just looting if they're already dead. She made deals with demons to gain more power. So, what, specifically (and with sources) makes her an irredeemable villain, Krishnath?
Also, Batman is an anti-hero, quite likely a lunatic, and though he doesn't outright kill most major villains, he isn't afraid to let them die.
Yes, but Batman wasn't a Sociopathic Mass Murdering <insert term for female dog here>. Lily on the other hand is. As I have reiterated many times, Lily is a villain, not a hero.
You've claimed a few times she killed half of Thraben. Have you provided a source for that, yet? She killed Angels, but could be argued self defense. She raised the dead, but that's basically just looting if they're already dead. She made deals with demons to gain more power. So, what, specifically (and with sources) makes her an irredeemable villain, Krishnath?
Also, Batman is an anti-hero, quite likely a lunatic, and though he doesn't outright kill most major villains, he isn't afraid to let them die.
Did you even read Uncharted Realms during the original Innistrad block?
And yes, Batman is insane, he is an adult male that dresses like a bat before heading out on the town to beat people up. But he isn't a sociopath, nor is he a mass murderer, or a <insert term for female dog here>. Lily is a sociopathic killer that revels in the death she inflicts. She sees a problem, she kills it, it's entire family, desecrates the bodies, before reanimates the corpses. She. Is. A. Villain. Always has been, always will be.
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Numquam evolutioni obstes. Solum conculceris.
Pascite draconem, evolvite aut morimini.
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R We haven't seen Emrakul's effect yet. Kozilek's torture was psychological, and Ulamog tore away at sanity. It's possible that Tibalt will side with the agony created by Emrakul, or that he will desire to stop Emrakul in order to continue having victims available. Since Chandra is already part of the Gatewatch, I don't see any other likely candidates in known walkers.
G We might see Garruk again, but I doubt it. He's hunting the biggest and baddest prey available right now; planeswalkers. Though could be convinced Eldrazi are a bigger challenge, likely won't join Gatewatch until cured.
U Tamiyo. With the moon, I think it's pretty likely. Whether or not she'll get a card is up to dispute, especially if Jace does.
W Seems like she's angry at Sorin, but he isn't in the Gatewatch. Possible.
B I would think they'll use Sorin just so they can have a multicolor Oath, but if not there's a pretty slim chance that Liliana will be willing to join, other than to turn it in for a favor against her demons.
Anyone I missed, any opinions or other notes?
PS. Liliana seems to be much possible 5th gatewatcher, because you know... Origins.
As far as a black aligned member of the Gatewatch goes, I want Sorin to take an oath and become the de facto leader of the group because of his experience and power level. Joining a group that was created to fight the Eldrazi seems right up his alley.
-Chandra Nalaar
Sorin is considerably more likely than Lily. Lily is a villain through and through. Sorin on the other hand is pragmatic, but he does have a sense of responsibility. Lily's only sense of responsibility is to herself and only herself. She has no problem working with others as long as it is convenient for her to do so, but as soon as she has gotten what she wanted, she drops the other party like rock over the side of a boat. Her joining the Gatewatch would be extremely out of character for her.
Sorin on the other hand would join the Gatewatch quite readily, particularly if they have helped solve whatever matter was messing with Innistrad this time.
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Numquam evolutioni obstes. Solum conculceris.
Pascite draconem, evolvite aut morimini.
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I've had this theory that Ob-Nixilis's character exists as a foil to Liliana who can now become way more conflicted and interesting as a character. He's somehting far worse than a Necromancer who wanted to save her brother. He's a straight-up irredeemable MONSTER of a character who may just kill everyone and everything in the multiverse and not really give a **** about any of it. I mean, the UR stories (those I've read anyway) seem like a whole 'nother level of blackness.
That (to me) gives Liliana a slight chance at becoming more of an 'antihero' if not an actual hero. At that point could she make sense?
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Oh, and Liliana isn't a monster? She straight up slaughtered half a city for the sole reason that they where between her and her goal. She specializes in Mind Rape and Necromancy. She takes pleasure in ripping peoples memories out of their minds and straight up torture.
Ob Nixilis is a nihilistic omnicidal maniac, but Lily is a Sadistic Selfabsorbed <beep>tch. Please stop trying to make her noble, she isn't, she never was, she never will be. She was designed to be a villain.
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Numquam evolutioni obstes. Solum conculceris.
Pascite draconem, evolvite aut morimini.
I find it extremely unlikely that a Sociopathic Mass Murderering Narcissist would become part of the Gatewatch. Lily is a villain, has always been a villain, and will always be a villain.
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Numquam evolutioni obstes. Solum conculceris.
Pascite draconem, evolvite aut morimini.
Meh
Modern
BUWEsper ControlWUB
BRUGrixis DelverURB
WRBGKiki ChordGBRW
WBGAbzan MidrangeGBW
BRGJundGRB
Legacy
UBRGrixis DelverRBU
Commander
Also meh
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Numquam evolutioni obstes. Solum conculceris.
Pascite draconem, evolvite aut morimini.
I'm starting to get the feeling you really don't like Liliana. I understand why, I don't like her either, but it feels like you take it too seriously sometimes. Remember: MtG is fiction.
I still see Sorin eventually filling the role of black Gatewatch member, though it's funny that no-one brings up how many people he must have killed in his millenia-long lifespan. I suppose it helps that he doesn't come off as quite so insufferable, he's more like Severus Snape than Draco Malfoy.
I doubt Garruk would join Gatewatch even if he wasn't a cursed manhunting abomination; even at his best, he wasn't exactly a people person. Being raised from childhood by beasts while having only your own father and a tyrannical landlord as references for humanity will do that to you.
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
You're kidding right? I friggin' love her character, as *what she was created as*. Changing a character for no good reason (and let's be honest, being the only origins walker not part of the gatewatch is not a good reason) makes fans of both the game and the character to get a little cranky. She was created as a villain, everything she has done so far has been self-centered and villainous, changing it now would be incredibly horrid storytelling, and I am pretty sure we've come a long way since the Invasion days.
But hey, you're free to feel differently.
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Numquam evolutioni obstes. Solum conculceris.
Pascite draconem, evolvite aut morimini.
I'm with you on this matter,but Lilliana is very popular and market research trumps storytelling in this age.So they'll give her an oath and if it helps with sales 180 her character.Thats the unfortunate truth I've come to accept after battle of zendikar,all side characters will fall by the wayside and the origin five will take center stage.
Me:"Something is wrong with innistrad's moon?"
Wotc:"Y'know who would be great for that?"
Me:"Tamiyo!"
Wotc:"Oh you mean Jace!"
Me:"Why?"
RIP Batman guy. I hope somebody picks up the slack now that you are gone. Sick children need their Batman.
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
We have gotten confirmation from an official source (specifically MaRo) that we will be getting more oaths in Legendary Enchantment form as the Gatewatch acquires new members. This is not in question, at all.
Tamiyo will have some presence in the new block as she is directly referenced in the flavor text on one of the leaked cards. Specifically on Pore Over the Pages.
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Numquam evolutioni obstes. Solum conculceris.
Pascite draconem, evolvite aut morimini.
To be fair, they talk about her in a past tense manner. She could be dead. Or werewolved or vamp'd or zombified, or any other number of things. It was her notes they found, she likely won't show up til the second set I estimate.
Snape wasn't the bad guy. Odysseus did everything to get back home to his wife. McGonagal was taking Harry to the quidditch team, not to yell at him. The Big Bad Wolf was just trying to eat. Magneto didn't want mutants in concentration camps.
I could go on, at length, but suffice to say a good villain should never see themselves as a villain. Lil killed her brother, lost power to the Mending, and made four pacts. That's a long history of possible reasons her "villainy" is less one-dimensional than you present it to be.
Dr. Doom just wanted more time with his mom; then revenge. Maybe Lily wanted more Josu. They'll give us reason in the story soon, I'm sure.
Except, Lily totally sees herself as a villain, she is a friggin necromancer, she murders and kills people, then reanimates their corpses because it is convenient for her, she also enjoys ripping peoples memories from their minds. She is, and I reiterate: A sociopathic mass murdering narcissist.
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Numquam evolutioni obstes. Solum conculceris.
Pascite draconem, evolvite aut morimini.
2 Demons now. And she isn't beholden to them, they own her soul. As in, when she kicks the bucket, they get her soul. If she was beholden to them, she wouldn't have been able to lay a finger on either Kothoped nor Griselbrand, and she killed both of them.
She is not beholden to the veil either. It grants her power and it is trying to possess her, and due to its nature as a cursed artifact, she can't get rid of it. But it does not control her directly even if it is attempting to influence her decisions.
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Numquam evolutioni obstes. Solum conculceris.
Pascite draconem, evolvite aut morimini.
But I agree with Krishnath - Lili really doesn't sit well as someone who should be shoe-horned into the team. Sorin could give a potential B (in part) oath, but even then I don't think he really fits the type. He's spent over 6 millenia doing his own thing, and it may just be that the whole trouble Nahiri is causing is because he was piss-poor at keeping his side of a previous deal. Why would he get himself entangled in another one?
Really, I just hope they don't feel the need to complete the cycle just for the sake of completing it. If they're going to grow the Gatewatch, it should be done naturally and organically, bringing in someone that doesn't feel forced.
I have a feeling he'll stumble on her research while exploring Jenrik's tower. Something like Jace wanted to speak with the two moon experts, in order to find out what's going on, only to discover the tower in ruins, or abandonned. (I would be extremely sad to see Tamiyo die )
Batman was part of the Justice League, despite not being big on teams. Only when they realized he'd made plans of how to kill the others was he even at risk of getting kicked out (but quit instead). Now, I'm not calling Batman a villain, but I am stating that some people can join a team and have it not work out. I think Liliana will join, even if just as an honorary member or somesuch. Most of her actions so far could be rationalized, especially with the curse from the veil.
I think Sorin will be our first multicolored Oath, in Black/White.
Tamiyo will do another blue Oath.
But I still wonder about green. Werewolf planes walker? Would be cool.
Yes, but Batman wasn't a Sociopathic Mass Murdering <insert term for female dog here>. Lily on the other hand is. As I have reiterated many times, Lily is a villain, not a hero.
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Numquam evolutioni obstes. Solum conculceris.
Pascite draconem, evolvite aut morimini.
You've claimed a few times she killed half of Thraben. Have you provided a source for that, yet? She killed Angels, but could be argued self defense. She raised the dead, but that's basically just looting if they're already dead. She made deals with demons to gain more power. So, what, specifically (and with sources) makes her an irredeemable villain, Krishnath?
Also, Batman is an anti-hero, quite likely a lunatic, and though he doesn't outright kill most major villains, he isn't afraid to let them die.
Did you even read Uncharted Realms during the original Innistrad block?
And yes, Batman is insane, he is an adult male that dresses like a bat before heading out on the town to beat people up. But he isn't a sociopath, nor is he a mass murderer, or a <insert term for female dog here>. Lily is a sociopathic killer that revels in the death she inflicts. She sees a problem, she kills it, it's entire family, desecrates the bodies, before reanimates the corpses. She. Is. A. Villain. Always has been, always will be.
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Numquam evolutioni obstes. Solum conculceris.
Pascite draconem, evolvite aut morimini.