I asked about what people thoughts on innocent blood were over in the Standard forum, and most people seemed to think it was way to strong and a completely unlikely reprint. It seems borderline to me.
* Up to three target creatures you control gain first strike and haste until end of turn, untap them for R
That doesn't read mono red, unless it is a sorcery. Untapping creatures on the defense seems like it would require othercolours.
I'm pretty sure MaRo and at least one other WotC employee have been quoted as saying Innocent Blood is very well balanced, with the implication it would be fine for Standard or Modern. It's not like Bone Splinters was a huge problem, and while Innocent Blood is generally stronger, due to not requiring you to have a creature, and situationaly taking advantage of sacrifice effects, bone splinters does have the advantage of choosing your target when the opponent has multiple creatures.
It's not nearly as OP as the likes of Thoughtseize, which is currently in Standard.
Thanks for pointing out Bone Splinters. That is a good argument. I feel like I agree with you on this, and was slightly surprised at how overpowered it was seen by some of the standard crowd. The people in the "reprint this for modern" on the other hand, seem to be all in favour of getting Innocent Blood into Modern.
I also agree with you on Thoughtseize, at least from a theoretical standpoint. But Aaron Forsythe has commented that Thoughtseize turned out to be stronger than they had wanted and anticipated.
EDIT: And now I see you joined the Innocent blood thread over in standard. Thanks. I'm really not sure about the card, so all I want more than anything is to genereate some good debate:-)
Thanks for pointing out Bone Splinters. That is a good argument. I feel like I agree with you on this, and was slightly surprised at how overpowered it was seen by some of the standard crowd. The people in the "reprint this for modern" on the other hand, seem to be all in favour of getting Innocent Blood into Modern.
I also agree with you on Thoughtseize, at least from a theoretical standpoint. But Aaron Forsythe has commented that Thoughtseize turned out to be stronger than they had wanted and anticipated.
EDIT: And now I see you joined the Innocent blood thread over in standard. Thanks. I'm really not sure about the card, so all I want more than anything is to genereate some good debate:-)
Thoughtseize gets a lot more powerful with must answer right away cards at 2 and 3 cmc like Pack Rat, and when burn isn't close to Modern power level to make it's drawback mean more. Duress is nearly as problematic in that kind of situation. It's notable that TS became a lot less scary when Pack Rat rotated. Still probably overpowered for Standard, but MBD was no longer the beast it once was.
Still, I am on the side of thinking TS is a bit overpowered for Modern, just necessary for it because without it combo is too strong, especially while the format lacks Counterspell.
What are your thoughts on the powerlevel of Portent in standard and modern? It is basically Ponder with the carddraw being delayed. While I quite like it, I am unsure if it would be too powerful in the given context.
What are your thoughts on the powerlevel of Portent in standard and modern? It is basically Ponder with the carddraw being delayed. While I quite like it, I am unsure if it would be too powerful in the given context.
They would have to fix the wording of the card at least, stacking your opponent's draws for one mana could be too broken for standard.
4 of those and four of something like Archaeomancer could pretty much enable you to actively mana screw your opponent out of the game.
[*]Innocent Blood - it seems like an unlikely thing for wizards to ever print again in a standard set release. Its one of the more powerful Legacy removal effects out there. I think asking for an edict is probably fine but do you really think we would get this?
[/list]
I don't think this is true at all, and in fact I hate the argument that "it's strong in format X, therefore it's good in format y". Just because it's strong in legacy doesn't mean that it's strong in standard. Legacy decks play far far fewer creatures on average, and the fewer creatures that are playe the stronger innocent blood is, as it has both a greater affect on your opponent, and a lesser affect on you. Considering all the deathmist raptors, tokens, mana dorks and mastery of the unseens that are played in standard, especially with the shift to creature centric gameplay that wizards has been encouraging, it becomes much weaker. While I agree that it would be a strong piece of removal (likely the go-to black removal for it's standard lifespan) I think it's a weaker card than something like thoughtseize overall, and even more so with a creature centric format, such as the one that currently exists.
You can't blindly say that just because something is strong in vintage/legacy/modern it's too strong for standard. By that logic things like monastary mentor, young pyromancer, ingot chewer, lodestone golem,mental misstep and elctrickery can never be reprinted, and treasure cruise and dig through time should be banned in standard simply because they're good in other formats. You have to look at what makes it good and how it interacts with other cards in the format.
List tags are malformed.
I would love to se a two-mana cycle of board removal cards. Pyroclasm would be Red, Innocent Blood for Black, maybe something that bounces creatures for Blue. White could totally destroy creatures with cmc 1 maybe? I have no clue about Green, though.
Huey, Dewey and Louie are always dressed in RUG. it is CLEARLY going to be the wedges block Pioneer: WURFaerie fires BRGDragons ModernBGElves WRBurn UR Fires Turns URGift Storm UG Twiddle Storm
Love it lol. I want to see some modern staples that wouldn't break standard like aven mindscenor or stuff like that. I know it would be hard to print a money card like that but that card amoungst others at the common or uncommon level deserve to have their price cut down to quarters and dimes. Maybe not that far but $2 would work. A new set with $2-3 commons would sell out for sure even if it's rates were not amazing.
I really hope Origins has an awesome and iconic feel overall. A set that makes you truly think of the amazing nature of planeswalkers and their ability to seek and learn the best magics from different planes and bond with lands of all sorts of different planes, gathering relatively massive amounts of power compared to the average mage. The greatest of explorers, able to visit new and distant worlds so strange most people they meet can't even imagine it and survive these harsh and bizarre climates filled with unknown dangers.
I wanna see some truly epic magics:
The ability to create, and empower, and destroy armies on a whim.
The ability to control time and shift the forms of things as one might build sandcastles.
The power to call forth death and destruction, raise entire legions of zombies, and gain whatever one might wish if one is willing to pay the price.
The might to call down fires hot enough to melt steel in an instant and bright great thunderbolts from the sky, or summon even mighty dragons.
The secrets to become one with nature, summon colossal beasts, and draw endlessly increasing power from the land itself.
The weapons and ancient artifacts found on myriad worlds that have empowered the mightiest of heroes and villains.
---
This isn't just about raw power, though, I'm hoping for efficiency and versatility as well. Planeswalkers can visit numerous planes to learn techniques of magic not found on their planes of origin, seeking out the best and most efficient versions of each spell. If a spell is lost lore on one plane, it might be common on another. I'm hoping for a great versatility of spell effects, either epicly powerful, or in relatively efficient forms (mana wise), or rare or previously unseen effects. Of course they also have to include the focuses behind each planeswalker's stories and personal powers, but they should hopefully also touch every major aspect of each color, to represent the myriad things planeswalkers encounter on across numerous planes.
Also, since we're focusing on origin stories, I hope that for the ones other than Liliana, (whose spark was triggered pre-mending) they'll focus on lower CMC stuff, good spells for midrange and creatures for aggro and tempo, while black with Liliana will have more high cmc effects due to her oldwalker status, at least for the spells and creatures linked to the walkers themselves, rather than the just the things they've encountered during their origin stories and early adventures as planeswalkers.
Hopefully most limited fodder will focus on things from the planeswalkers' home planes and things they encountered or learned before their sparks lit, while most uncommon and up spells and the decent commons will be things they mastered or gained as summons after their sparks lit and they began gaining access to different planes to master the best and rarest magics.
I really want them to go out with a bang for the final core set, especially with the heavy planeswalker focus. I mean, I know they'll have to put in some questionable stuff to keep things balanced in limited and other sets in Standard, and for includes for the cheap intro decks, but I still hope to see at least an average power level uptick, even if the highest ends of stuff is kept down to keep it reasonable in limited and Standard, I hope that there is less complete jank than most sets, and more Modern viable cards than most previous core sets or janky blocks like Theros block turned out to be. Something to help us transition into a relatively high power level Standard for the Battle for Zendikar block.
I doubt we will see the titans. First of all, Primeval Titan is in MM2, I doubt they would have put him there if he was due for a return to Standard within a few months (For example, they left Thoughtseize out of MM1 since it was in Theros).
The Titans were also incredibly pushed at a time when creature removal was leaps and bounds more powerful and efficient than it is now. Last August, Sam Stoddard mentioned the Titans in his article about developing removal:
This era of incredibly powerful removal persisted until relatively recently. Even by the time we were releasing Magic 2011 and Magic 2012, Lightning Bolt and Path to Exile forced us to create creature cards on the level of the Titans and Phyrexian Obliterator just to try and let expensive creatures see play, since the mana efficiency of the removal was so high.
Trying to constantly print creatures on the power level of the Titans is a losing battle for us, long term.
I don't think this is true at all, and in fact I hate the argument that "it's strong in format X, therefore it's good in format y". Just because it's strong in legacy doesn't mean that it's strong in standard. Legacy decks play far far fewer creatures on average, and the fewer creatures that are playe the stronger innocent blood is, as it has both a greater affect on your opponent, and a lesser affect on you. Considering all the deathmist raptors, tokens, mana dorks and mastery of the unseens that are played in standard, especially with the shift to creature centric gameplay that wizards has been encouraging, it becomes much weaker. While I agree that it would be a strong piece of removal (likely the go-to black removal for it's standard lifespan) I think it's a weaker card than something like thoughtseize overall, and even more so with a creature centric format, such as the one that currently exists.
You can't blindly say that just because something is strong in vintage/legacy/modern it's too strong for standard. By that logic things like monastary mentor, young pyromancer, ingot chewer, lodestone golem,mental misstep and elctrickery can never be reprinted, and treasure cruise and dig through time should be banned in standard simply because they're good in other formats. You have to look at what makes it good and how it interacts with other cards in the format.
It isnt too strong for standard because its played in legacy. Its too strong for standard because its a zero downside hard removal one drop for control decks. Things like pyromancer are fine in standard because we dont have the card base to support it properly with all the fast removal and cantrips. Innocent Blood is a different story because it requires no support to be completely broken. Innocent Blood has zero early game downside for control decks because they dont plan to have creatures in play until they have more or less stabilized. The problem with IB is its mana cost is too low.
The logic in my argument is the fact that we do not have a 2 mana unconditional edict right now. Given that why would we get a one drop conditional edict that the condition is essentially not there for control decks? Wizards has been making control effects weaker for standard purposes over the last few years so suddenly printing something like this would be completely against what they have been doing so far which is to promote creature based strategies. Innocent Blood costs too little mana for what it does for standard. It would speed control up to the point where they would have to ramp up the arms race of what aggro can do to a point that it would be unhealthy.
Innocent Blood is an unrealistic request in origins not because of what it does in other formats but what it does in general. Wizards does not have a 2 mana unconditional edict in standard right now so printing a one mana edict seems like a pipe dream. To be totally honest, I feel that they were mistaken when they designed the card in general because its supposed "draw back" which is that you both sac is not really a draw back for the decks that would run it.
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I don't think this is true at all, and in fact I hate the argument that "it's strong in format X, therefore it's good in format y". Just because it's strong in legacy doesn't mean that it's strong in standard. Legacy decks play far far fewer creatures on average, and the fewer creatures that are playe the stronger innocent blood is, as it has both a greater affect on your opponent, and a lesser affect on you. Considering all the deathmist raptors, tokens, mana dorks and mastery of the unseens that are played in standard, especially with the shift to creature centric gameplay that wizards has been encouraging, it becomes much weaker. While I agree that it would be a strong piece of removal (likely the go-to black removal for it's standard lifespan) I think it's a weaker card than something like thoughtseize overall, and even more so with a creature centric format, such as the one that currently exists.
You can't blindly say that just because something is strong in vintage/legacy/modern it's too strong for standard. By that logic things like monastary mentor, young pyromancer, ingot chewer, lodestone golem,mental misstep and elctrickery can never be reprinted, and treasure cruise and dig through time should be banned in standard simply because they're good in other formats. You have to look at what makes it good and how it interacts with other cards in the format.
It isnt too strong for standard because its played in legacy. Its too strong for standard because its a zero downside hard removal one drop for control decks. Things like pyromancer are fine in standard because we dont have the card base to support it properly with all the fast removal and cantrips. Innocent Blood is a different story because it requires no support to be completely broken. Innocent Blood has zero early game downside for control decks because they dont plan to have creatures in play until they have more or less stabilized. The problem with IB is its mana cost is too low.
The logic in my argument is the fact that we do not have a 2 mana unconditional edict right now. Given that why would we get a one drop conditional edict that the condition is essentially not there for control decks? Wizards has been making control effects weaker for standard purposes over the last few years so suddenly printing something like this would be completely against what they have been doing so far which is to promote creature based strategies. Innocent Blood costs too little mana for what it does for standard. It would speed control up to the point where they would have to ramp up the arms race of what aggro can do to a point that it would be unhealthy.
Innocent Blood is an unrealistic request in origins not because of what it does in other formats but what it does in general. Wizards does not have a 2 mana unconditional edict in standard right now so printing a one mana edict seems like a pipe dream. To be totally honest, I feel that they were mistaken when they designed the card in general because its supposed "draw back" which is that you both sac is not really a draw back for the decks that would run it.
I think you are underestimating that it is sorcery speed (a huge drawback, especially on an edict where you have less control over the targeting), and that black is supposed to be _the_ creature removal color. Plus I think the scaling back of control in Standard in favor of out of control aggro has been a bad idea and will turn out to be a failed experiment. Control isn't naturally strong against aggro anyway, it's naturally weak to it, even with efficient creature death like innocent blood around.
I think you are underestimating that it is sorcery speed (a huge drawback, especially on an edict where you have less control over the targeting), and that black is supposed to be _the_ creature removal color. Plus I think the scaling back of control in Standard in favor of out of control aggro has been a bad idea and will turn out to be a failed experiment. Control isn't naturally strong against aggro anyway, it's naturally weak to it, even with efficient creature death like innocent blood around.
Considering how wizard's profit margins have been the last few years I don't think it has been bad. The reasons they wanted to make the shift is in part because casual players find heavy spell based removal to be very unsatisfying to loose to. This means that if they have a higher retention of new players because they don't play against the old Psychatog like decks of old they are probably more willing to stick about.
I cant really speculate on how wizards feels they are doing but given the last several years have been sort of record breaking sales for them I suspect that they are happy where they are with their current mentalities.
I think its actually a lot more likely we see something like Path to Exile return than Innocent Blood given the raptor issue of late. What does Innocent Blood directly answer that control is having an issue with? It just speeds them up as far as I can see which is not something I see wizards really wanting. Path to Exile has a downside to it even though it comes online quickly so if your T1 / T2 answer is a Path I think its a lot less concerning for the aggro player. The fact that control has been having issues with raptors makes me think that more exile removal or effective grave hate seems more likely than Innocent Blood to me. Hate for Fleecemane Lion might still happen but it seems less of a priority the set before it rotates.
To be honest, I sort of suspect that we don't see a big name removal effect. We will be getting some reprints and it wouldn't surprise me if we get removal but it would surprise me if we get anything major. My expectations are more towards thinking that we see some sort of Murder / Oblivion Ring effects and or worse effects. It wouldn't surprise me if we see some sort of 5+ mana wrath effect return as well. I would guess something like 60% chance that we see something a little better than those effects but my expectation as it stands is we see effects like that and I will let myself be pleasantly surprised if we get better.
Lightning Bolt, Counterspell, Elvish Mystic, Diabolic Edict, Ensnaring Bridge, Young Pyromancer, Baneslayer Angel, Meekstone, Lotus Petal, Crucible of Worlds, Grim Lavamancer, Nimble Mongoose, Red/Blue Elemental Blast, Pyro/Hydroblast, Flusterstorm, Sylvan Library, Wasteland (yeah right), Force of Will (also probably not happening), Doom Blade, Go For The Throat, Maze of Ith, Wild Mongrel, any of the madness cards, Stroke of Genius, Flashback cards, Tendrils of Agony, Ignite Memories, Dragonstorm, Grapeshot, wish cycle, Heritage Druid, Birchlore Rangers, Nettle Sentinel, Wirewood Symbiote, Elvish Archdruid, Priest of Titania, Master of the Pearl Trident, Lord of Atlantis, Merrow Reejeerey, Cursecatcher, Gravecrawler, Geralf's Messenger, Carrion Feeder, Death Baron, Carnophage, Goblin Sharpshooter, Goblin Lackey, Goblin Warchief, Goblin Matron, Goblin Ringleader, Captain of the Watch, Elite Vanguard, Veteran Armorsmith, Veteran Swordsmith, Veteran Explorer, Cabal Therapy, Reanimate, Exhume, Animate Dead, Knight of Meadowgrain, Kinsbaile Cavalier, Knight Exemplar, Knight of the White Orchid, Tivadar of Thorn, will probably add more cards to this later.
Really?
Wasteland and Force of Will seem shockingly likely comparatively.
Heritage Druid / Nettle Sentinel reprints would be nice and really should not prove to be a problem for standard. They wouldn't really add much but they would be a good reprint for modern to have given the sudden surge in popularity.
I actually suspect they wont be in there more based on how suddenly their popularity has gone up as the design of a set tends to stretch out quite a ways so I suspect we wont really see them more because it feels like it would take a last second change to push them in.
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Lightning Bolt, Counterspell, Elvish Mystic, Diabolic Edict, Ensnaring Bridge, Young Pyromancer, Baneslayer Angel, Meekstone, Lotus Petal, Crucible of Worlds, Grim Lavamancer, Nimble Mongoose, Red/Blue Elemental Blast, Pyro/Hydroblast, Flusterstorm, Sylvan Library, Wasteland (yeah right), Force of Will (also probably not happening), Doom Blade, Go For The Throat, Maze of Ith, Wild Mongrel, any of the madness cards, Stroke of Genius, Flashback cards, Tendrils of Agony, Ignite Memories, Dragonstorm, Grapeshot, wish cycle, Heritage Druid, Birchlore Rangers, Nettle Sentinel, Wirewood Symbiote, Elvish Archdruid, Priest of Titania, Master of the Pearl Trident, Lord of Atlantis, Merrow Reejeerey, Cursecatcher, Gravecrawler, Geralf's Messenger, Carrion Feeder, Death Baron, Carnophage, Goblin Sharpshooter, Goblin Lackey, Goblin Warchief, Goblin Matron, Goblin Ringleader, Captain of the Watch, Elite Vanguard, Veteran Armorsmith, Veteran Swordsmith, Veteran Explorer, Cabal Therapy, Reanimate, Exhume, Animate Dead, Knight of Meadowgrain, Kinsbaile Cavalier, Knight Exemplar, Knight of the White Orchid, Tivadar of Thorn, will probably add more cards to this later.
Really?
Wasteland and Force of Will seem shockingly likely comparatively.
Not to mention that he included both Lord of Atlantis and Master of the Pearl Trident. The existence of Master of the Pearl Trident is a straight up acknowledgment that Lord of Atlantis will not be printed again.
URGImperial AnimarGRU BRGProssh, Tokenmaker of KherGRB WURNarset NostalgicRUW UBR"I like your deck better" JelevaRBU UBlue BraidsU GAzusa, Lost but RampingG
WUHanna, Pillowfort's NavigatorUW WBRAleshacratsBRW UBRGrixis Pew PewRBU URGYasova the ThreateningGRU BGGlissa the ArticiferGB WUSygg MerfolkUW RSquee, Value NabobR
I think you are underestimating that it is sorcery speed (a huge drawback, especially on an edict where you have less control over the targeting), and that black is supposed to be _the_ creature removal color. Plus I think the scaling back of control in Standard in favor of out of control aggro has been a bad idea and will turn out to be a failed experiment. Control isn't naturally strong against aggro anyway, it's naturally weak to it, even with efficient creature death like innocent blood around.
Considering how wizard's profit margins have been the last few years I don't think it has been bad. The reasons they wanted to make the shift is in part because casual players find heavy spell based removal to be very unsatisfying to loose to. This means that if they have a higher retention of new players because they don't play against the old Psychatog like decks of old they are probably more willing to stick about.
I cant really speculate on how wizards feels they are doing but given the last several years have been sort of record breaking sales for them I suspect that they are happy where they are with their current mentalities.
I think its actually a lot more likely we see something like Path to Exile return than Innocent Blood given the raptor issue of late. What does Innocent Blood directly answer that control is having an issue with? It just speeds them up as far as I can see which is not something I see wizards really wanting. Path to Exile has a downside to it even though it comes online quickly so if your T1 / T2 answer is a Path I think its a lot less concerning for the aggro player. The fact that control has been having issues with raptors makes me think that more exile removal or effective grave hate seems more likely than Innocent Blood to me. Hate for Fleecemane Lion might still happen but it seems less of a priority the set before it rotates.
To be honest, I sort of suspect that we don't see a big name removal effect. We will be getting some reprints and it wouldn't surprise me if we get removal but it would surprise me if we get anything major. My expectations are more towards thinking that we see some sort of Murder / Oblivion Ring effects and or worse effects. It wouldn't surprise me if we see some sort of 5+ mana wrath effect return as well. I would guess something like 60% chance that we see something a little better than those effects but my expectation as it stands is we see effects like that and I will let myself be pleasantly surprised if we get better.
I agree it's unlikely, but not that Path to Exile is more likely. MaRo is a big complainer about Path breaking color pie standards by being undercosted unconditional (if with a drawback) creature removal for white, and if he has any influence on a set Path to Exile is unlikely to be printed in it, sort of something like Modern Masters. I think something brand new is more likely than either Path or InnBlood, but Murder and Oblivion Ring's replacement, Banishing Light, are certainly possibilities, although they'd likely up Murder from common to uncommon, as they seem to hate putting even half-decent constructed viable removal at common these days.
I think part of the reason they've transitioned away from strong removal and board wipes as of late is because they got scared by what they accidentally created with some of the Azorious stuff in RTR, particularly how the uncounterable Supreme Verdict basically killed blue tempo decks after Snapcaster and Delver rotated, Sphinx's rev was overpowered in the relatively slow format, and they were still reeling from the ridiculousness of Snapcaster Mage. Admittedly, there were reasons back in the day for the 'Titan problem' being part of why they wanted to tone down removal, but the density of powerful removal matters as well, if they avoid 'critical mass' one or two decent removal spells in each appropriate color won't break things, just as long as only one of them is on the level of things like Innocent Blood, Path to Exile, Lightning Bolt, or Counterspell per color.
Well I don't think Legacy staples are really planned for Orgins, some might arrive but many will not.
Instead I think we might see a block somewhere in the future that will return into a Future Sight type of story, probably removing Legacy as a format and intergrate it into Modern instead... But this is all a big guess ofcourse.
The main reason why I think Force of Will won't suddenly arrive is Silumgar's Scorn. Together with Anticipate and Dig Through Time there will not be any reason not to play Control in "future Standard". Better said, there will be too many blue cards that are easily pitched for it. Which makes it powerfull or not.
Now if we see a upcomming block without any counterspells, then maby, just maby it will be reprinted.
I think there is also a question of if we really want to force all of the broken Legacy cards into modern. Modern is supposed to be its own thing and while its fun to dream about Legacy staples in modern, I don't really think pushing all of them into modern is needed. Its good to have the two formats be very different things. Ideally we get new cards that trickle through modern and legacy but I am more than fine not bringing every good Legacy card into modern playability.
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Heritage Druid / Nettle Sentinel reprints would be nice and really should not prove to be a problem for standard. They wouldn't really add much but they would be a good reprint for modern to have given the sudden surge in popularity.
I actually suspect they wont be in there more based on how suddenly their popularity has gone up as the design of a set tends to stretch out quite a ways so I suspect we wont really see them more because it feels like it would take a last second change to push them in.
Well this does contain Nissa and she is a known supporter of "Elven superiority". She must have learned that from somewhere which Origins will probably cover.
So this set might very well contain cards that cares or plays with Elves as could Nissa herself.
But what it does in general is only average at best given the amount of creatures that people are getting out in standard. Edict effects on their own are actually pretty mediocre in such a creature heavy environment. It's a much less powerful than a card like thoughtseize, which has much greater potential for disruption for the exact same mana cost, with a comparable drawback. It's also almost useless lategame, when the control player does have their threat out. It would certainly be powerful, but it's certainly more printable than a card like path.
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I'm pretty sure MaRo and at least one other WotC employee have been quoted as saying Innocent Blood is very well balanced, with the implication it would be fine for Standard or Modern. It's not like Bone Splinters was a huge problem, and while Innocent Blood is generally stronger, due to not requiring you to have a creature, and situationaly taking advantage of sacrifice effects, bone splinters does have the advantage of choosing your target when the opponent has multiple creatures.
It's not nearly as OP as the likes of Thoughtseize, which is currently in Standard.
I also agree with you on Thoughtseize, at least from a theoretical standpoint. But Aaron Forsythe has commented that Thoughtseize turned out to be stronger than they had wanted and anticipated.
EDIT: And now I see you joined the Innocent blood thread over in standard. Thanks. I'm really not sure about the card, so all I want more than anything is to genereate some good debate:-)
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Thoughtseize gets a lot more powerful with must answer right away cards at 2 and 3 cmc like Pack Rat, and when burn isn't close to Modern power level to make it's drawback mean more. Duress is nearly as problematic in that kind of situation. It's notable that TS became a lot less scary when Pack Rat rotated. Still probably overpowered for Standard, but MBD was no longer the beast it once was.
Still, I am on the side of thinking TS is a bit overpowered for Modern, just necessary for it because without it combo is too strong, especially while the format lacks Counterspell.
They would have to fix the wording of the card at least, stacking your opponent's draws for one mana could be too broken for standard.
4 of those and four of something like Archaeomancer could pretty much enable you to actively mana screw your opponent out of the game.
I don't think this is true at all, and in fact I hate the argument that "it's strong in format X, therefore it's good in format y". Just because it's strong in legacy doesn't mean that it's strong in standard. Legacy decks play far far fewer creatures on average, and the fewer creatures that are playe the stronger innocent blood is, as it has both a greater affect on your opponent, and a lesser affect on you. Considering all the deathmist raptors, tokens, mana dorks and mastery of the unseens that are played in standard, especially with the shift to creature centric gameplay that wizards has been encouraging, it becomes much weaker. While I agree that it would be a strong piece of removal (likely the go-to black removal for it's standard lifespan) I think it's a weaker card than something like thoughtseize overall, and even more so with a creature centric format, such as the one that currently exists.
You can't blindly say that just because something is strong in vintage/legacy/modern it's too strong for standard. By that logic things like monastary mentor, young pyromancer, ingot chewer, lodestone golem,mental misstep and elctrickery can never be reprinted, and treasure cruise and dig through time should be banned in standard simply because they're good in other formats. You have to look at what makes it good and how it interacts with other cards in the format.
List tags are malformed.
Pioneer: WURFaerie fires BRGDragons
ModernBGElves WRBurn UR Fires Turns URGift Storm UG Twiddle Storm
Love it lol. I want to see some modern staples that wouldn't break standard like aven mindscenor or stuff like that. I know it would be hard to print a money card like that but that card amoungst others at the common or uncommon level deserve to have their price cut down to quarters and dimes. Maybe not that far but $2 would work. A new set with $2-3 commons would sell out for sure even if it's rates were not amazing.
I wanna see some truly epic magics:
The ability to create, and empower, and destroy armies on a whim.
The ability to control time and shift the forms of things as one might build sandcastles.
The power to call forth death and destruction, raise entire legions of zombies, and gain whatever one might wish if one is willing to pay the price.
The might to call down fires hot enough to melt steel in an instant and bright great thunderbolts from the sky, or summon even mighty dragons.
The secrets to become one with nature, summon colossal beasts, and draw endlessly increasing power from the land itself.
The weapons and ancient artifacts found on myriad worlds that have empowered the mightiest of heroes and villains.
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This isn't just about raw power, though, I'm hoping for efficiency and versatility as well. Planeswalkers can visit numerous planes to learn techniques of magic not found on their planes of origin, seeking out the best and most efficient versions of each spell. If a spell is lost lore on one plane, it might be common on another. I'm hoping for a great versatility of spell effects, either epicly powerful, or in relatively efficient forms (mana wise), or rare or previously unseen effects. Of course they also have to include the focuses behind each planeswalker's stories and personal powers, but they should hopefully also touch every major aspect of each color, to represent the myriad things planeswalkers encounter on across numerous planes.
Also, since we're focusing on origin stories, I hope that for the ones other than Liliana, (whose spark was triggered pre-mending) they'll focus on lower CMC stuff, good spells for midrange and creatures for aggro and tempo, while black with Liliana will have more high cmc effects due to her oldwalker status, at least for the spells and creatures linked to the walkers themselves, rather than the just the things they've encountered during their origin stories and early adventures as planeswalkers.
Hopefully most limited fodder will focus on things from the planeswalkers' home planes and things they encountered or learned before their sparks lit, while most uncommon and up spells and the decent commons will be things they mastered or gained as summons after their sparks lit and they began gaining access to different planes to master the best and rarest magics.
I really want them to go out with a bang for the final core set, especially with the heavy planeswalker focus. I mean, I know they'll have to put in some questionable stuff to keep things balanced in limited and other sets in Standard, and for includes for the cheap intro decks, but I still hope to see at least an average power level uptick, even if the highest ends of stuff is kept down to keep it reasonable in limited and Standard, I hope that there is less complete jank than most sets, and more Modern viable cards than most previous core sets or janky blocks like Theros block turned out to be. Something to help us transition into a relatively high power level Standard for the Battle for Zendikar block.
The Titans were also incredibly pushed at a time when creature removal was leaps and bounds more powerful and efficient than it is now. Last August, Sam Stoddard mentioned the Titans in his article about developing removal:
Cubetutor Peasant'ish-Funbox
Project: Khans of Tarkir Cube (cubetutor)
It isnt too strong for standard because its played in legacy. Its too strong for standard because its a zero downside hard removal one drop for control decks. Things like pyromancer are fine in standard because we dont have the card base to support it properly with all the fast removal and cantrips. Innocent Blood is a different story because it requires no support to be completely broken. Innocent Blood has zero early game downside for control decks because they dont plan to have creatures in play until they have more or less stabilized. The problem with IB is its mana cost is too low.
The logic in my argument is the fact that we do not have a 2 mana unconditional edict right now. Given that why would we get a one drop conditional edict that the condition is essentially not there for control decks? Wizards has been making control effects weaker for standard purposes over the last few years so suddenly printing something like this would be completely against what they have been doing so far which is to promote creature based strategies. Innocent Blood costs too little mana for what it does for standard. It would speed control up to the point where they would have to ramp up the arms race of what aggro can do to a point that it would be unhealthy.
Innocent Blood is an unrealistic request in origins not because of what it does in other formats but what it does in general. Wizards does not have a 2 mana unconditional edict in standard right now so printing a one mana edict seems like a pipe dream. To be totally honest, I feel that they were mistaken when they designed the card in general because its supposed "draw back" which is that you both sac is not really a draw back for the decks that would run it.
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[Modern] Allies
I think you are underestimating that it is sorcery speed (a huge drawback, especially on an edict where you have less control over the targeting), and that black is supposed to be _the_ creature removal color. Plus I think the scaling back of control in Standard in favor of out of control aggro has been a bad idea and will turn out to be a failed experiment. Control isn't naturally strong against aggro anyway, it's naturally weak to it, even with efficient creature death like innocent blood around.
Considering how wizard's profit margins have been the last few years I don't think it has been bad. The reasons they wanted to make the shift is in part because casual players find heavy spell based removal to be very unsatisfying to loose to. This means that if they have a higher retention of new players because they don't play against the old Psychatog like decks of old they are probably more willing to stick about.
I cant really speculate on how wizards feels they are doing but given the last several years have been sort of record breaking sales for them I suspect that they are happy where they are with their current mentalities.
I think its actually a lot more likely we see something like Path to Exile return than Innocent Blood given the raptor issue of late. What does Innocent Blood directly answer that control is having an issue with? It just speeds them up as far as I can see which is not something I see wizards really wanting. Path to Exile has a downside to it even though it comes online quickly so if your T1 / T2 answer is a Path I think its a lot less concerning for the aggro player. The fact that control has been having issues with raptors makes me think that more exile removal or effective grave hate seems more likely than Innocent Blood to me. Hate for Fleecemane Lion might still happen but it seems less of a priority the set before it rotates.
To be honest, I sort of suspect that we don't see a big name removal effect. We will be getting some reprints and it wouldn't surprise me if we get removal but it would surprise me if we get anything major. My expectations are more towards thinking that we see some sort of Murder / Oblivion Ring effects and or worse effects. It wouldn't surprise me if we see some sort of 5+ mana wrath effect return as well. I would guess something like 60% chance that we see something a little better than those effects but my expectation as it stands is we see effects like that and I will let myself be pleasantly surprised if we get better.
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[Modern] Allies
Really?
Wasteland and Force of Will seem shockingly likely comparatively.
I actually suspect they wont be in there more based on how suddenly their popularity has gone up as the design of a set tends to stretch out quite a ways so I suspect we wont really see them more because it feels like it would take a last second change to push them in.
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[Modern] Allies
Not to mention that he included both Lord of Atlantis and Master of the Pearl Trident. The existence of Master of the Pearl Trident is a straight up acknowledgment that Lord of Atlantis will not be printed again.
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Modern: BRGLiving EndGRB
Legacy: UBGShardless BUGGBU
BRGProssh, Tokenmaker of KherGRB
WURNarset NostalgicRUW
UBR"I like your deck better" JelevaRBU
UBlue BraidsU
GAzusa, Lost but RampingG
WBRAleshacratsBRW
UBRGrixis Pew PewRBU
URGYasova the ThreateningGRU
BGGlissa the ArticiferGB
WUSygg MerfolkUW
RSquee, Value NabobR
I agree it's unlikely, but not that Path to Exile is more likely. MaRo is a big complainer about Path breaking color pie standards by being undercosted unconditional (if with a drawback) creature removal for white, and if he has any influence on a set Path to Exile is unlikely to be printed in it, sort of something like Modern Masters. I think something brand new is more likely than either Path or InnBlood, but Murder and Oblivion Ring's replacement, Banishing Light, are certainly possibilities, although they'd likely up Murder from common to uncommon, as they seem to hate putting even half-decent constructed viable removal at common these days.
I think part of the reason they've transitioned away from strong removal and board wipes as of late is because they got scared by what they accidentally created with some of the Azorious stuff in RTR, particularly how the uncounterable Supreme Verdict basically killed blue tempo decks after Snapcaster and Delver rotated, Sphinx's rev was overpowered in the relatively slow format, and they were still reeling from the ridiculousness of Snapcaster Mage. Admittedly, there were reasons back in the day for the 'Titan problem' being part of why they wanted to tone down removal, but the density of powerful removal matters as well, if they avoid 'critical mass' one or two decent removal spells in each appropriate color won't break things, just as long as only one of them is on the level of things like Innocent Blood, Path to Exile, Lightning Bolt, or Counterspell per color.
I think there is also a question of if we really want to force all of the broken Legacy cards into modern. Modern is supposed to be its own thing and while its fun to dream about Legacy staples in modern, I don't really think pushing all of them into modern is needed. Its good to have the two formats be very different things. Ideally we get new cards that trickle through modern and legacy but I am more than fine not bringing every good Legacy card into modern playability.
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[Modern] Allies
Well this does contain Nissa and she is a known supporter of "Elven superiority". She must have learned that from somewhere which Origins will probably cover.
So this set might very well contain cards that cares or plays with Elves as could Nissa herself.