So I was just speculating on what the effect will be of a Modern Masters set the player base in general finds disappointing or nigh unworthy to buy packs for?
I see that it can have two mutually exclusive effects:
1. With little packs being opened/bought, there is left over boxes to be opened by suppliers/shops causing a surplus in the money cards like Tarmogoyf and thus a drastic drop in their value.
2. Money cards like Tarmogoyf actually increase partially from stores raising the prices to mitigate losses on boxes that didn't hold any value. Since players on their own didn't open packs as much, the extra supply is held by the shops who set the prices controlling the drop that would be expected.
Honestly I am not sure which effect I am more on the side of happening. What do you guys think? Any other effects you think might happen?
I don't think boxes will remain forever on shelves. Thought lots of wanted cards weren't reprinted in the set, lots of very interesting ones were. Also, it seems to be a very fun draft environment, so players might get inclined to play MM2015 drafts more often. Playing MM1 drafts was kind of hard since the prices skyrocket in a moment. I guess MM2015 will maintain its price closer to MRSP so players will be able to draft at a reasonable price for a longer time.
The shops I frequent do NOT do a lot of drafting. The pull is Standard. With that pull, it pulls all other events - like Modern and Commander. Then after those three comes - drafting. At most, I have seen 8 people draft on one of the larger store's FNM. The other stores have 4 drafters. Commander might have slightly more pull than the drafting. But Standard is the big crowd puller.
So, WotC supports Standard - that's their flagship, the bread and butter, the money maker. Hello and welcome to faster set rotation.
Support for Commander is once a year - Product released in November
They have done a Draft support product three years in a row: MM1, Conspiracy, and now MM2.
And the Modern support was the Modern Event deck without the proper mana base. (Sorin's deck from Sorin V. Tibalt was better.)
My fear is that Conspiracy will be better than MM2... and I have more than enough Conspiracy. (It was a hoot and a half to draft and play.)
I think they overanticipated how well this will sell. When it doesn't meet their expectations, they'll blame it on overprinting instead of a lack of quality, and underprint all future reprint products.
I think they overanticipated how well this will sell. When it doesn't meet their expectations, they'll blame it on overprinting instead of a lack of quality, and underprint all future reprint products.
That is kind of how we feel.
We all excpected Modern Masters 2 : Bigger, Better, and Jammed full of value. What we got was modern Modern Masters 1/2 jammed full of bomb ass mythics and like 5 commons you wouldn't shut up about, but the rest is just for casuals.
I think they overanticipated how well this will sell. When it doesn't meet their expectations, they'll blame it on overprinting instead of a lack of quality, and underprint all future reprint products.
That is kind of how we feel.
We all excpected Modern Masters 2 : Bigger, Better, and Jammed full of value. What we got was modern Modern Masters 1/2 jammed full of bomb ass mythics and like 5 commons you wouldn't shut up about, but the rest is just for casuals.
Don't insult casual players like that. Even they can see the abysmal value in 34 under $1 rares (and 1 under $1 mythic).
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Level 1 Judge
"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
You don't call "dying to removal" if the removal is more expensive in resources than the creature. If you have to spend BG (Abrupt Decay), or W + basic land (PtE) to remove a 1G, that is not "dying to removal". Strictly speaking Goyf dies to removal, but actually your removal is dying to Goyf.
And there in lies the general problem with it. It was built for drafters not modern players.
Well the awkward part is that the price tag is for modern players. Paying $30-$40 for a draft means a lot players will only draft once, if at all. The set is trying to please both crowds, but the structure (putting all the value at mythic, raising prices, and limited print run) might end up failing both drafters and modern players.
I mean that a good bit of the reprints are strictly for EDH or Kitchen Table magic. I mean mulldrifter? That sees play in what? Animar Combo?
Aside from that, with at best a 30$ price tag for draft I don't see this being opened much except by big companies that have enough capital to invest in enough boxes that they end up making value off Bobs, Goys, Cryptics, and Moxs...
I mean that a good bit of the reprints are strictly for EDH or Kitchen Table magic. I mean mulldrifter? That sees play in what? Animar Combo?
Aside from that, with at best a 30$ price tag for draft I don't see this being opened much except by big companies that have enough capital to invest in enough boxes that they end up making value off Bobs, Goys, Cryptics, and Moxs...
Yeah, but what kind of Kitchen Table or EDH player will pay $30 for a draft? Like you said, the value is too low for spikes looking for constructed staples to want to draft and the people who would most want to draft this will be priced out. So its really the big companies opening boxes and selling singles that will benefit the most, if at all.
I think this set will still sell out in a relatively short amount of time. As lazy desigend at it is, there's tarmogoyf in it, and many players will desperately suck it up for that reason alone.
If the set happens to sit on store shelves for a while, shops just lower the price until players are too tempted and finally buy it. I expect rares like fulminator and wilt-leaf liege to dip quite noticeably, while cryptic, hierarch and all of the mythics remain relatively unchanged.
buying packs for the mythic lottery seems like a bad idea and should only be done if the price is really good.
I'm SO SICK of the "too strong for Standard" argument. It's the new "Dies to removal". We can have a two mana 4/4 with a zillion abilities, but we can't just have Accumulated Knowledge. Makes sense.
I mean that a good bit of the reprints are strictly for EDH or Kitchen Table magic. I mean mulldrifter? That sees play in what? Animar Combo?
Aside from that, with at best a 30$ price tag for draft I don't see this being opened much except by big companies that have enough capital to invest in enough boxes that they end up making value off Bobs, Goys, Cryptics, and Moxs...
The thing is, the first MM had some great EDH stuff. This time around, most of the "EDH" stuff is thoroughly mediocre in EDH, or has seen a recent reprinting.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Level 1 Judge
"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
You don't call "dying to removal" if the removal is more expensive in resources than the creature. If you have to spend BG (Abrupt Decay), or W + basic land (PtE) to remove a 1G, that is not "dying to removal". Strictly speaking Goyf dies to removal, but actually your removal is dying to Goyf.
So I was just speculating on what the effect will be of a Modern Masters set the player base in general finds disappointing or nigh unworthy to buy packs for?
I see that it can have two mutually exclusive effects:
1. With little packs being opened/bought, there is left over boxes to be opened by suppliers/shops causing a surplus in the money cards like Tarmogoyf and thus a drastic drop in their value.
2. Money cards like Tarmogoyf actually increase partially from stores raising the prices to mitigate losses on boxes that didn't hold any value. Since players on their own didn't open packs as much, the extra supply is held by the shops who set the prices controlling the drop that would be expected.
Honestly I am not sure which effect I am more on the side of happening. What do you guys think? Any other effects you think might happen?
Nobody buys the set, prices drop, starcity somehow snatches up everything with its shadow broker like bull*****, which reinflates the price just enough for the ****ers to sell goyfs and modern playables far outside the normal person's means.
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Current Decks GGo Elf YourselfG WThat Cat Has A Knife!W BUGWhip your assBUG
I mean that a good bit of the reprints are strictly for EDH or Kitchen Table magic. I mean mulldrifter? That sees play in what? Animar Combo?
Aside from that, with at best a 30$ price tag for draft I don't see this being opened much except by big companies that have enough capital to invest in enough boxes that they end up making value off Bobs, Goys, Cryptics, and Moxs...
The thing is, the first MM had some great EDH stuff. This time around, most of the "EDH" stuff is thoroughly mediocre in EDH, or has seen a recent reprinting.
Not to mention two of the MM2015 Mythics are EDH-banned...
There were way more good EDH stuff in the first MM: doubling season, eternal witness, PtE, pact of negation, academy ruins, glen elendra archmage etc.
Every booster set is made for drafters, not just the supplemental sets. They're also meant for constructed players, EDH players and kitchen table players.
Of course, for each card I listed there's a bunch of other cards Modern players wouldn't care about. But the set is not supposed to be boosters of "free money".
No but it should have at least been comparable to Modern Masters 1.
It isn't anywhere near as good. It is quite literally a backslide in quality/value that costs even more. Honestly If I could just get my deposit back on mine I would cancel it. I bought into the hype, and due to the fact I completly missed out on MM1 (was deployed at the time) I felt like I had to get in on mm2. Then it turned out to be half assed version of modern masters.
Yes there are lots of good cards, sadly there is so much jank compared to original one. Honestly at 10$ a pack >1$ rares hurts. But the thing that hurts more, is the shear amount of crap that is either strictly for kitchen table magic, or just bad EDH reprints.
Hell if it was good EDH reprints I might consider getting into that.
Every booster set is made for drafters, not just the supplemental sets. They're also meant for constructed players, EDH players and kitchen table players.
Of course, for each card I listed there's a bunch of other cards Modern players wouldn't care about. But the set is not supposed to be boosters of "free money".
That is what? 25? 35 cards that are good or okay-ish in Modern, out of 249 cards. Going to need more than a seventh of a set made specifically for a format. That would be like if they made a Tiny Leaders set and putting 75% of the cards in it over 4 CMC.
People don't want to crack open more cards that have been reprinted 2 times in the last year or two, as they probably have plenty of them and even if they don't they are easy to acquire. There shouldn't be cards being opened that I could find in a basic core set, like Mighty Leap or Raise the Alarm, what there should be are commons and uncommons that are in need of a dire reprint that haven't seen a new version in 5-10+ years that should have been a shoe in, as it would have been similar to MM1, but it seems more like they gave up after the mythics and half the rares and just decided to start throwing darts at a board to see what should be in it.
Cracking open a pack should be more than a $10 lottery ticket to see if you won the $160 Goyf prize. The packs going up $3 and yet having worse uncommon and common value isn't going to make people happy. Had the packs stayed at $7 this would have been a little more acceptable, but unfortunately that isn't the case and folks are not happy with it, and for very good reason, this set is just plain lackluster.
Definitely disappointing, as a mostly-casual player I only counted 6 non-mythics that I would be excited to open from this set, only one of which is an uncommon. That would be weak for any set, and is especially terrible for a set with this kind of price tag. Absolutely makes this a mythic lottery...which I have zero interest in. And while I love to draft, at 30+ a pop with little likely upside in terms of just opening cool stuff I want that might happen all of once. Awesome.
But the interesting thing about this situation is that people not buying it will just raise the price of it long term, as the EV of packs grows as the prices of the chase mythics/rares does when people aren't opening them en masse.
I think all you haters will be disappointed at how well this will still sell.
Everyone knows this will sell well, but how well it sells shouldn't give them the idea that this is the way you do things in a set like Modern Masters, or in a set made specifically for one format.
I think all you haters will be disappointed at how well this will still sell.
If this set does sell for as well as you think it will do you honestly think that is a good thing? They are kinda being abusive to their player base, over charging for a sub par product. And if this product does sell what do you think wizards will learn from this? They will learn that they do not have to work that hard to get money out of us, they will learn that they can use your loyalty to their product to drain you of your funds for something you can get elsewhere for a cheaper cost, they will learn that they do not have to respect you as a costumer and patron of their card game.
Honestly, this must come back to bite them in the butt or Wizards runs the risk of MTG going down the same path as the video games industry is currently going down.
Every booster set is made for drafters, not just the supplemental sets. They're also meant for constructed players, EDH players and kitchen table players.
Of course, for each card I listed there's a bunch of other cards Modern players wouldn't care about. But the set is not supposed to be boosters of "free money".
why would modern players want for any of the rav bounce lands when they're already a quarter each? And didn't raise the alarm just get reprinted in both a standard set and the latest elspeth duel deck? Why is your arguement listing cards that are already outlandishly common?
I listed cards that see play on Modern, expensive or not. Simic Growth Chamber was actually $1.5 as it plays in Amulet of Vigor decks (still very affordable though). But the point was that the set is indeed filled with Modern staples, some very expensive, some not. You don't see people saying that Dragons of Tarkir is not meant for Standard players cause it is filled with crap "meant-for-limited" and because Dragonlord Ojutai and Deathmist Raptor are mythic and therefore extremely hard to open.
Oh, there's also Ultimate price, but that is super cheap and has just been reprinted in RtR.
I agree that MM2 has less money commons and uncommons than MM1. But it has 14 out of 15 very good mythics and a greatnumber of money rares that were begging for a reprint. There's still lots of cards that need reprint, but there's still lots of sets coming. And, as both players and Wizards know, a single Modern staple is very relevant to increase product sales (Seize in Theros, Remand in Jace vs. Vraska, Fetchlands in Khans, Shocklands in RtR, Mutavaultin M15, and I'm sure we'll see good reprints in the upcoming sets)
Every booster set is made for drafters, not just the supplemental sets. They're also meant for constructed players, EDH players and kitchen table players.
Of course, for each card I listed there's a bunch of other cards Modern players wouldn't care about. But the set is not supposed to be boosters of "free money".
why would modern players want for any of the rav bounce lands when they're already a quarter each? And didn't raise the alarm just get reprinted in both a standard set and the latest elspeth duel deck? Why is your arguement listing cards that are already outlandishly common?
Bounce Lands are EDH stuff anywayssss.
Also Raise the Alarm was reprinted in the Modern Event Deck... Which was totally worth the 70$ I payed for mine. I sold the pain lands, and elspeth and bought some stuff to put together a decent soul sisters for my wife.
I see that it can have two mutually exclusive effects:
1. With little packs being opened/bought, there is left over boxes to be opened by suppliers/shops causing a surplus in the money cards like Tarmogoyf and thus a drastic drop in their value.
2. Money cards like Tarmogoyf actually increase partially from stores raising the prices to mitigate losses on boxes that didn't hold any value. Since players on their own didn't open packs as much, the extra supply is held by the shops who set the prices controlling the drop that would be expected.
Honestly I am not sure which effect I am more on the side of happening. What do you guys think? Any other effects you think might happen?
Commander: WUBRG Superfriends, GW Rhys Tokens, WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon
Kitchen Table (now that's real Magic): WUBRG Domain, GU Biovisionary, UB Korlash Grandeur, UW Merfolk Mill
BEEEES!
Rabble Red
Modern
Burn
Infect
So, WotC supports Standard - that's their flagship, the bread and butter, the money maker. Hello and welcome to faster set rotation.
Support for Commander is once a year - Product released in November
They have done a Draft support product three years in a row: MM1, Conspiracy, and now MM2.
And the Modern support was the Modern Event deck without the proper mana base. (Sorin's deck from Sorin V. Tibalt was better.)
My fear is that Conspiracy will be better than MM2... and I have more than enough Conspiracy. (It was a hoot and a half to draft and play.)
That is kind of how we feel.
We all excpected Modern Masters 2 : Bigger, Better, and Jammed full of value. What we got was modern Modern Masters 1/2 jammed full of bomb ass mythics and like 5 commons you wouldn't shut up about, but the rest is just for casuals.
BEEEES!
Rabble Red
Modern
Burn
Infect
Don't insult casual players like that. Even they can see the abysmal value in 34 under $1 rares (and 1 under $1 mythic).
"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
Well the awkward part is that the price tag is for modern players. Paying $30-$40 for a draft means a lot players will only draft once, if at all. The set is trying to please both crowds, but the structure (putting all the value at mythic, raising prices, and limited print run) might end up failing both drafters and modern players.
I mean that a good bit of the reprints are strictly for EDH or Kitchen Table magic. I mean mulldrifter? That sees play in what? Animar Combo?
Aside from that, with at best a 30$ price tag for draft I don't see this being opened much except by big companies that have enough capital to invest in enough boxes that they end up making value off Bobs, Goys, Cryptics, and Moxs...
BEEEES!
Rabble Red
Modern
Burn
Infect
Yeah, but what kind of Kitchen Table or EDH player will pay $30 for a draft? Like you said, the value is too low for spikes looking for constructed staples to want to draft and the people who would most want to draft this will be priced out. So its really the big companies opening boxes and selling singles that will benefit the most, if at all.
If the set happens to sit on store shelves for a while, shops just lower the price until players are too tempted and finally buy it. I expect rares like fulminator and wilt-leaf liege to dip quite noticeably, while cryptic, hierarch and all of the mythics remain relatively unchanged.
buying packs for the mythic lottery seems like a bad idea and should only be done if the price is really good.
The thing is, the first MM had some great EDH stuff. This time around, most of the "EDH" stuff is thoroughly mediocre in EDH, or has seen a recent reprinting.
"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
Nobody buys the set, prices drop, starcity somehow snatches up everything with its shadow broker like bull*****, which reinflates the price just enough for the ****ers to sell goyfs and modern playables far outside the normal person's means.
GGo Elf YourselfG
WThat Cat Has A Knife!W
BUGWhip your assBUG
Not to mention two of the MM2015 Mythics are EDH-banned...
There were way more good EDH stuff in the first MM: doubling season, eternal witness, PtE, pact of negation, academy ruins, glen elendra archmage etc.
I fail to see how a set with Emrakul, the Aeons Torn; Karn Liberated, Celestial Purge, Daybreak Coronet, Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite, Iona, Shield of Emeria, Leyline of Sanctity, Raise the Alarm, Spectral Procession, Cryptic Command, Flashfreeze, Hurkyl's Recall, Mana Leak, Remand, Thoughtcast, Vapor Snag, Vendilion Clique, Bitterblossom, Dark Confidant, Dismember, Surgical Extraction, Kiki-Jiki, Mirror-Breaker, Lightning Bolt, Smash to Smithereens, Splinter Twin, Tribal Flames, Mutagenic Growth, Noble Hierarch, Primeval Titan, Tarmogoyf, Vines of Vastwood, Electrolyze, Fulminator Mage, Wilt-Leaf Liege, Cranial Plating, Etched Champion, Mox Opal, Spellskite, Blinkmoth Nexus, Boros Garrison, Eye of Ugin, Golgari Rot Farm, Gruul Turf, Simic Growth Chamber is not meant for Modern Players.
Of course, for each card I listed there's a bunch of other cards Modern players wouldn't care about. But the set is not supposed to be boosters of "free money".
Commander: WUBRG Superfriends, GW Rhys Tokens, WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon
Kitchen Table (now that's real Magic): WUBRG Domain, GU Biovisionary, UB Korlash Grandeur, UW Merfolk Mill
It isn't anywhere near as good. It is quite literally a backslide in quality/value that costs even more. Honestly If I could just get my deposit back on mine I would cancel it. I bought into the hype, and due to the fact I completly missed out on MM1 (was deployed at the time) I felt like I had to get in on mm2. Then it turned out to be half assed version of modern masters.
Yes there are lots of good cards, sadly there is so much jank compared to original one. Honestly at 10$ a pack >1$ rares hurts. But the thing that hurts more, is the shear amount of crap that is either strictly for kitchen table magic, or just bad EDH reprints.
Hell if it was good EDH reprints I might consider getting into that.
BEEEES!
Rabble Red
Modern
Burn
Infect
That is what? 25? 35 cards that are good or okay-ish in Modern, out of 249 cards. Going to need more than a seventh of a set made specifically for a format. That would be like if they made a Tiny Leaders set and putting 75% of the cards in it over 4 CMC.
People don't want to crack open more cards that have been reprinted 2 times in the last year or two, as they probably have plenty of them and even if they don't they are easy to acquire. There shouldn't be cards being opened that I could find in a basic core set, like Mighty Leap or Raise the Alarm, what there should be are commons and uncommons that are in need of a dire reprint that haven't seen a new version in 5-10+ years that should have been a shoe in, as it would have been similar to MM1, but it seems more like they gave up after the mythics and half the rares and just decided to start throwing darts at a board to see what should be in it.
Cracking open a pack should be more than a $10 lottery ticket to see if you won the $160 Goyf prize. The packs going up $3 and yet having worse uncommon and common value isn't going to make people happy. Had the packs stayed at $7 this would have been a little more acceptable, but unfortunately that isn't the case and folks are not happy with it, and for very good reason, this set is just plain lackluster.
But the interesting thing about this situation is that people not buying it will just raise the price of it long term, as the EV of packs grows as the prices of the chase mythics/rares does when people aren't opening them en masse.
Everyone knows this will sell well, but how well it sells shouldn't give them the idea that this is the way you do things in a set like Modern Masters, or in a set made specifically for one format.
If this set does sell for as well as you think it will do you honestly think that is a good thing? They are kinda being abusive to their player base, over charging for a sub par product. And if this product does sell what do you think wizards will learn from this? They will learn that they do not have to work that hard to get money out of us, they will learn that they can use your loyalty to their product to drain you of your funds for something you can get elsewhere for a cheaper cost, they will learn that they do not have to respect you as a costumer and patron of their card game.
Honestly, this must come back to bite them in the butt or Wizards runs the risk of MTG going down the same path as the video games industry is currently going down.
WWWAvacyn: We Can Make The World StopWWW
Oh, there's also Ultimate price, but that is super cheap and has just been reprinted in RtR.
I agree that MM2 has less money commons and uncommons than MM1. But it has 14 out of 15 very good mythics and a greatnumber of money rares that were begging for a reprint. There's still lots of cards that need reprint, but there's still lots of sets coming. And, as both players and Wizards know, a single Modern staple is very relevant to increase product sales (Seize in Theros, Remand in Jace vs. Vraska, Fetchlands in Khans, Shocklands in RtR, Mutavaultin M15, and I'm sure we'll see good reprints in the upcoming sets)
Commander: WUBRG Superfriends, GW Rhys Tokens, WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon
Kitchen Table (now that's real Magic): WUBRG Domain, GU Biovisionary, UB Korlash Grandeur, UW Merfolk Mill
Bounce Lands are EDH stuff anywayssss.
Also Raise the Alarm was reprinted in the Modern Event Deck... Which was totally worth the 70$ I payed for mine. I sold the pain lands, and elspeth and bought some stuff to put together a decent soul sisters for my wife.
BEEEES!
Rabble Red
Modern
Burn
Infect
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