When Battle for Zendikar is released, the enemy pain lands go away. If Origins has only the allied pain lands, it would create an imbalance that doesn't align with Wizards' vision.
But if Origins contains 5 enemy dual lands, they could balance with the allied fetchlands in KTK..
So let's say Origins has just enemy dual lands. They will balance with the allied fetch lands in Khans and FRF - that is true. But when Khans and FRF rotate out, leaving Dragons and Origins, we now have five enemy lands without ally lands to balance them. This goes against Wizards' desire to have all two-color decks have equal mana footing. Enemy color decks would have an extra dual land to work with. The same is true for ally-color decks if Origins has just allied lands. Therefore, I don't think Origins will have just five lands one way or the other. Instead, I'd expect to see 10 dual lands, one for each pair.
It is possible that the lands printed in Origins are two broken cycles: a cycle of five allied lands and a cycle of five different enemy lands (possibly enemy fetches). That depends on when Wizards' wants to implement their plans of keeping all two-color decks on equal mana footing and to print 10 land cycles per block.
Personally, I prefer symmetry and lean to favoring a standard where the ally and enemy lands are part of the same cycle. So I lean towards the idea that the ally and enemy lands in Origins will be part of the same cycle rather than two five-land cycles. But that's just a personal preference.
It will be interesting to see what path they take forward. With what you are describing, they will have to do either 10 or 0 dual lands per two-set block. And even then, there would be a period of unequal manafixing where allied decks have better fixing than enemy coloured ones up until KTK/FRF rotates. It is possible that they think this is fine, but it could also be that they want to do staggered cycles to mix things up, with each block only holding 5 lands. One way of doing this could be by splitting one cycle over two blocks, although I'm not sure if people would feel unexcited when the rare land cycle of the new exciting block is just "the last five of the old cycle". Of course, if the cycle is a high profile one, no one would complain.
The other way would be to use half-cycles but balance them in a manner similar to how the painlands were used to balance the fetchlands in M2015/KTK. So when the fetchlands rotate out with Khans and FRF, they would just need to do another balancing act, by printing an allied-coloured half-cycle that works similarly to the enemy-coloured half-cycle of Origins. Which would have to be balanced again once You write that "That depends on when Wizards' wants to implement their plans of keeping all two-color decks on equal mana footing and to print 10 land cycles per block". However, I would like to point out what Sam Stoddard said on the matter in his 'Making Mana' article: "Making sure that allied and enemy decks both work in Standard doesn't always mean that the lands have to be the same, just that they are about comparable for decks. There have also been some clarifying comments from various Wizards sources lately clarifying that their policy of giving equal treatment to allied and enemy colour pairs in terms of mana fixing does not mean that all land cycles will be printed in full cycles of 10.
But like I said, it will be interesting to see how they implement it going forward. It seems to me that we shouldn't read too much from the current status, as certainly the combination of a 3-colour heavy Khans-set and the transition from 3-set to 2-set blocks means that the present is a bit of an anomaly.
I am expecting them to do enemy versions of the Scars fastlands. This is their last opportunity to do them outside of New Phyrexia and Standard needs dual lands that support aggressive strategies on turns 1 and 2.
Surely they could print lands with the "enters the battlefield tapped unless you control two or fewer other lands." that have nothing to do with New Phyrexia?
I have some hope of a Nimbus Maze cycle printed, sooner or later. But allied painlands seem to be the most probable, maybe as a semi-functional reprint ("T, pay 1 life:" instead of "T: ... take 1 damage") as two of them (just Karplusan Forest and Adarkar Wastes) depict places in Dominaria and a straight reprint would be feasible only if Dominaria is one of the ten planes in Origins
Again a suggestion for allied painlands. Am I the only one who thinks that would be weird/skewed with only the allied fetches being in KTK-block? When Theros+M2015 rotates there would be 10 dual lands for allied colour-pairs and 0 for enemy colour pairs.
I'm expecting the whole set of Origins to be very different from recent cores. Origins and Dragons is supposed to form a pseudo-block when the new rotation system comes in, so I'd be surprised if that block consisted of a ton of reprints as core sets usually do. We already know that we're getting a full set of new planeswalkers rather than some new, some reprints, so it's totally feasible that Origins will contain totally new lands.
That being said, since Origins is supposed to block with Dragons, essentially an allied set, the one thing I am expecting is if there are any duals, they will be allied.
The other thing that could happen is something gets a "Viking burial", in that something really desirable from the early days gets some sort of reworking so it's reprintable, then never printed again. The popular one people have been talking about a lot is the "Legendary dual land". I'm not a fan of this as a thing, as I feel legendary lands should do something special and unique to them. On the other hand, I wouldn't complain, since I mainly play EDH, and more duals that come into play untapped would be cool.
However, my final thought, and somewhat of a backtrack, is that Origins could be packed full of "classics" and "iconics". Allied pains are certainly worthy of both of those names, but to a fair extent so are the allied checks.
Really, we don't have any clue. Enemy pains took everyone by surprise last year, so who knows what's to come in the final "core set"?
That being said, since Origins is supposed to block with Dragons, essentially an allied set, the one thing I am expecting is if there are any duals, they will be allied.
Dragons had no duals, so I'm expecting all 10 duals in Origins. And it makes sense since Origins takes place on ten planes (planeswalker homeplanes, of which we know some, and the planes they first traveled to).
That being said, since Origins is supposed to block with Dragons, essentially an allied set, the one thing I am expecting is if there are any duals, they will be allied.
Dragons had no duals, so I'm expecting all 10 duals in Origins. And it makes sense since Origins takes place on ten planes (planeswalker homeplanes, of which we know some, and the planes they first traveled to).
Unless they're shifting to a 5 duals per block due to the smaller blocks, and that's why they never printed a cycle in Dragons. At this stage though, like I already said, we really don't have a clue what their plan is, and predicting what WotC is going to do is like predicting the lottery numbers. Enemy fetches in Dragons made perfect sense, they still do, yet they were held back for what most assume is Zenditwo's lands.
I thought Maro had said something like "blah blah can't have too much shuffling in a core set because new players would think this is Magic: The Shuffling blah blah blah"
MaRo says a *lot* of things which end up having no bearing on the world of MtG.
He's a good source, but he isn't perfect.
Considering this is the last core set, they will have to do away with such excuses. There won't be a distinction where core sets are where new players start and expansion sets are "expert".
NNNWO?
Once again, I'm pretty sure shuffling has nothing to do with New World Order or new players; but rather more with tournament play. New players shuffle their decks for about 4 seconds after cracking an Evolving Wilds and are content. The problems arise in a tournament setting were you have the double issue of strict demands to 100% randomized decks and time limitations for rounds.
I thought Maro had said something like "blah blah can't have too much shuffling in a core set because new players would think this is Magic: The Shuffling blah blah blah"
MaRo says a *lot* of things which end up having no bearing on the world of MtG.
He's a good source, but he isn't perfect.
Considering this is the last core set, they will have to do away with such excuses. There won't be a distinction where core sets are where new players start and expansion sets are "expert".
NNNWO?
If I recall correctly, in 8th (along with the new border) they represented all editions in the set. Also, for core sets, they used to do a 'card battle' to determine with an online votation which card ends up in the set.
I believe WoTC's new policy is to make sure that every color can enjoy the exciting gameplay mechanic of making undercosted dudes and then turning them sideways. Clearly the future of magic.
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I think WotC will save the excitement of enemy fetches for BFZ, but Origins will still have an interesting land cycle, both to excite the fanbase and to set up Zendikar. Remember that Zendikar is supposed to be a plane with an overall "land matters" theme and I am pretty sure that we will see more than just one 5 or 10-part cycle in the BFZ block. The oroginal Zendikar block had a total of 36 non-basics over the 3 sets.
The problem isn't the THS/M15 rotation but the KTK/FRF one. Not having a rare dual land cycle in the DTK/Origins pseudo-block would be a very strange decision.
I would love to see all ten in Origins, but that's probably unrealistic. They haven't done that since 10th Edition.
The problem isn't the THS/M15 rotation but the KTK/FRF one. Not having a rare dual land cycle in the DTK/Origins pseudo-block would be a very strange decision.
I would love to see all ten in Origins, but that's probably unrealistic. They haven't done that since 10th Edition.
^This.
Ten lands worked in 10th Edition and they did it because, just like Origins, it was a special set (first black-bordered core set).
it's possible that the fetches will be in Origins, and the new Zendikar set will have something new and different to keep people excited. nobody likes a re-hash.
Everyone in the Magic world likes a re-hash when it comes to fetches
They should simply make some more or less equally good "other" fetchlands instead of reprints ...
I mean cmon, are they so dull in design ?
Fetchlands would be way cheaper if we had a bunch of versions to choose from (with different needs and drawbacks, not just 1 life).
But in the end, sure reprint them, make them uncommon god damn it !
If you make functionally different fetches with different card names then you run into the same issue, people that have them will add the new ones, you will be sub optimal if you dont have the old ones and new ones.
If you make functionally different fetches with different card names then you run into the same issue, people that have them will add the new ones, you will be sub optimal if you dont have the old ones and new ones.
Diversity is the key.
If theres no option, then you are forced to play fetchlands, theres simply no choice, and every deck has to run them.
However, if theres some fetchlands, that say work with "tribal", they are better in that type of decks, but only in that type of decks, so they are not expensive, as they are niche.
But we solved multiple issues with this. The demand goes down, as we have multiple options for fetchlands and we get some "budget" fetchlands that actual work (fetching for basics only obvisiously does not).
Ofcourse there still might be the pseudo "best" fetchland for a given deck, and that might be expensive, but you would at least have the options to run "other" fetchlands that are just a tiny bit less optimal for your deck, but keep it functional running.
The issue with fetchlands was mainly that the market did not have enough of them to provide for all the new players that needed them at the time AND you did not have any alternative, as you simply must play fetchlands to have a working manabase in modern (ignoring obvisious corner cases ofcourse, ala tron, affinity and such).
You would still likely run into the case that you can run 4x special fetches in deck A), and you can Also run 4x Scalding Tarn in Deck A to be optimal.
Fetch lands are too powerful. They interact with library manipulation (bounce, scry, place on top, fateseal, etc.) They interact with courser of kruphix. They interact with Shocklands, the just do too much.
So even if you did add say "Tribal" Fetches, they would work well in certain decks, but not others, They would cheaper, but it would have a minimal impact on regular fetches.
Seriously we just need Enemy Fetches reprinted in BFZ, and so type of new land in Origins, or finish an existing cycle.
Considering this is the last core set, they will have to do away with such excuses. There won't be a distinction where core sets are where new players start and expansion sets are "expert".
NNNWO?
One thing many people seem to have missed is that Magic Origins is not just a core set. The creators did not just change the naming scheme, but stated outright that Magic Origins is more than a core set. While some considerations might still apply, more specifically this is a segue into the new paradigm - and also something special to send off the old ways.
That being said excessive shuffling is an issue they are aware of not only for core sets, but something they use carefully. Obviously they will allow it when returning fan-favorites like the fetchlands and solid tools like Evolving Wilds, but otherwise they'll keep alternative options in mind as well.
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Planar Chaos was not a mistake neither was it random. You might want to look at it again.
[thread=239793][Game] Level Up - Creature[/thread]
KTK (269 cards total)had 21 non-basic lands. 10 gain lands, 5 fetch lands, 5 tri lands AND a Tomb of the Spirit Dragon. They found space for that there, so why not in Origins?
it's possible that the fetches will be in Origins, and the new Zendikar set will have something new and different to keep people excited. nobody likes a re-hash.
true. I remember clearly how everyone HATED having the shock lands reprinted in RTR
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Huey, Dewey and Louie are always dressed in RUG. it is CLEARLY going to be the wedges block Pioneer: WURFaerie fires BRGDragons ModernBGElves WRBurn UR Fires Turns URGift Storm UG Twiddle Storm
it's possible that the fetches will be in Origins, and the new Zendikar set will have something new and different to keep people excited. nobody likes a re-hash.
true. I remember clearly how everyone HATED having the shock lands reprinted in RTR
Don't forget the outrage about the fetches in KTK. Hardly anybody bought the set...
(...)When THS goes we lose the Scrylands but the gainlands are completely identical,(...)
I said before that the reason I think it's possible that we see 10 duals is that (1) they did it before (10th) and (2) it will be a special set. Of course it is not for certain. Of course you might argue that there is no need, but this is the Speculation forum. You can't rule out the possibility.
it's possible that the fetches will be in Origins, and the new Zendikar set will have something new and different to keep people excited. nobody likes a re-hash.
true. I remember clearly how everyone HATED having the shock lands reprinted in RTR
Don't forget the outrage about the fetches in KTK. Hardly anybody bought the set...
ok, fine - unimaginative people who love everything to stay the same all the time, and want every sequel or re-make to be essentially that same original thing with a new label on the front - those people will love the idea of keeping everything 'status quo'. that way nothing new and scary ever happens and they can keep their world view all in neat boxes where this-piece-fits-with-that-piece and so on.
and talking purely about one aspect (the hype around specific valuable cards seeing a reprint) is kind of missing the point. I was suggesting that those cards DO see a reprint (we all want those tasty reprints, that's a given). I was suggesting wizards could switch up the formula a little and make room for new and interesting things to explore in the upcoming Zendikar block. don't forget there's also a story-element bound up with the design of each block, and the Zendikar we'll get this year should be pretty different to the last one we saw. i'm not a backstory-buff. i don't know exactly what was supposed to have happened in ZEN; but i do really appreciate the work that goes into this aspect, and I recognise the importance of making the actual mechanics of the cards reflect that story element. this is why i suggested that there might be something new and different, and that the fetches might get reprinted in origins, to appease the secondary market (something which wizards should honestly ignore for mainstream sets. side-products, sure, reprint expensive stuff. otherwise it warps the design).
when i said "nobody likes a re-hash", it was a general statement, but it has validity. there are (even in this one game) several powerful examples of sets which can broadly be called a "re-hash" and people hated them. and with the leaps and strides that Wizards have been making in terms of excellent creative design and balance in recent years (vast improvements), it would be a great shame for them to fall back on simplistic "more of the same" concepts rather than push the envelope and really use the brains of their excellent design teams.
but, you know, feel free to be sarcastic and tear apart my idea based on a meaningless tangent, taken from a tiny detail that has basically nothing to do with the actual point I was making. yeesh.
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Modern: G Tron, Vannifar, Jund, Druid/Vizier combo, Humans, Eldrazi Stompy (Serum Powder), Amulet, Grishoalbrand, Breach Titan, Turns, Eternal Command, As Foretold Living End, Elves, Cheerios, RUG Scapeshift
It will be interesting to see what path they take forward. With what you are describing, they will have to do either 10 or 0 dual lands per two-set block. And even then, there would be a period of unequal manafixing where allied decks have better fixing than enemy coloured ones up until KTK/FRF rotates. It is possible that they think this is fine, but it could also be that they want to do staggered cycles to mix things up, with each block only holding 5 lands. One way of doing this could be by splitting one cycle over two blocks, although I'm not sure if people would feel unexcited when the rare land cycle of the new exciting block is just "the last five of the old cycle". Of course, if the cycle is a high profile one, no one would complain.
The other way would be to use half-cycles but balance them in a manner similar to how the painlands were used to balance the fetchlands in M2015/KTK. So when the fetchlands rotate out with Khans and FRF, they would just need to do another balancing act, by printing an allied-coloured half-cycle that works similarly to the enemy-coloured half-cycle of Origins. Which would have to be balanced again once You write that "That depends on when Wizards' wants to implement their plans of keeping all two-color decks on equal mana footing and to print 10 land cycles per block". However, I would like to point out what Sam Stoddard said on the matter in his 'Making Mana' article: "Making sure that allied and enemy decks both work in Standard doesn't always mean that the lands have to be the same, just that they are about comparable for decks. There have also been some clarifying comments from various Wizards sources lately clarifying that their policy of giving equal treatment to allied and enemy colour pairs in terms of mana fixing does not mean that all land cycles will be printed in full cycles of 10.
But like I said, it will be interesting to see how they implement it going forward. It seems to me that we shouldn't read too much from the current status, as certainly the combination of a 3-colour heavy Khans-set and the transition from 3-set to 2-set blocks means that the present is a bit of an anomaly.
Surely they could print lands with the "enters the battlefield tapped unless you control two or fewer other lands." that have nothing to do with New Phyrexia?
Cubetutor Peasant'ish-Funbox
Project: Khans of Tarkir Cube (cubetutor)
Cubetutor Peasant'ish-Funbox
Project: Khans of Tarkir Cube (cubetutor)
That being said, since Origins is supposed to block with Dragons, essentially an allied set, the one thing I am expecting is if there are any duals, they will be allied.
The other thing that could happen is something gets a "Viking burial", in that something really desirable from the early days gets some sort of reworking so it's reprintable, then never printed again. The popular one people have been talking about a lot is the "Legendary dual land". I'm not a fan of this as a thing, as I feel legendary lands should do something special and unique to them. On the other hand, I wouldn't complain, since I mainly play EDH, and more duals that come into play untapped would be cool.
However, my final thought, and somewhat of a backtrack, is that Origins could be packed full of "classics" and "iconics". Allied pains are certainly worthy of both of those names, but to a fair extent so are the allied checks.
Really, we don't have any clue. Enemy pains took everyone by surprise last year, so who knows what's to come in the final "core set"?
Dragons had no duals, so I'm expecting all 10 duals in Origins. And it makes sense since Origins takes place on ten planes (planeswalker homeplanes, of which we know some, and the planes they first traveled to).
Unless they're shifting to a 5 duals per block due to the smaller blocks, and that's why they never printed a cycle in Dragons. At this stage though, like I already said, we really don't have a clue what their plan is, and predicting what WotC is going to do is like predicting the lottery numbers. Enemy fetches in Dragons made perfect sense, they still do, yet they were held back for what most assume is Zenditwo's lands.
Considering this is the last core set, they will have to do away with such excuses. There won't be a distinction where core sets are where new players start and expansion sets are "expert".
NNNWO?
Cubetutor Peasant'ish-Funbox
Project: Khans of Tarkir Cube (cubetutor)
If I recall correctly, in 8th (along with the new border) they represented all editions in the set. Also, for core sets, they used to do a 'card battle' to determine with an online votation which card ends up in the set.
So, I'm also hoping for something really cool...
UR Mizzix of the Izmagnus ~~~ Build your own win-condition: Finite Spellslinging
UR Brudiclad, Telchor Engineer ~~~ We are the Borg. We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own.
WUB Oloro, Ageless Ascetic ~~~ A Guide to dying slowly
UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose ~~~ Marchesa's undying Marionettes
RGW Mayael the Anima ~~~ All Hail the Big Chungus
GWU Chulane, Teller of Tales ~~~ Permanents Only ETB Shenanigans
BGU Sidisi, Brood Tyrant ~~~ Sidisi's Restless Servants
WUBRG The Ur-Dragon ~~~ Dragons eat your face
I would love to see all ten in Origins, but that's probably unrealistic. They haven't done that since 10th Edition.
UR Blue-Red Control
Modern:
UBR Grixis Control
UWR Jeskai Control
^This.
Ten lands worked in 10th Edition and they did it because, just like Origins, it was a special set (first black-bordered core set).
If you make functionally different fetches with different card names then you run into the same issue, people that have them will add the new ones, you will be sub optimal if you dont have the old ones and new ones.
BEEEES!
Rabble Red
Modern
Burn
Infect
Diversity is the key.
If theres no option, then you are forced to play fetchlands, theres simply no choice, and every deck has to run them.
However, if theres some fetchlands, that say work with "tribal", they are better in that type of decks, but only in that type of decks, so they are not expensive, as they are niche.
But we solved multiple issues with this. The demand goes down, as we have multiple options for fetchlands and we get some "budget" fetchlands that actual work (fetching for basics only obvisiously does not).
Ofcourse there still might be the pseudo "best" fetchland for a given deck, and that might be expensive, but you would at least have the options to run "other" fetchlands that are just a tiny bit less optimal for your deck, but keep it functional running.
The issue with fetchlands was mainly that the market did not have enough of them to provide for all the new players that needed them at the time AND you did not have any alternative, as you simply must play fetchlands to have a working manabase in modern (ignoring obvisious corner cases ofcourse, ala tron, affinity and such).
WUBRG#BlackLotusMatterWUBRG
👮👮👮 #BlueLivesMatter 👮👮👮
Fetch lands are too powerful. They interact with library manipulation (bounce, scry, place on top, fateseal, etc.) They interact with courser of kruphix. They interact with Shocklands, the just do too much.
So even if you did add say "Tribal" Fetches, they would work well in certain decks, but not others, They would cheaper, but it would have a minimal impact on regular fetches.
Seriously we just need Enemy Fetches reprinted in BFZ, and so type of new land in Origins, or finish an existing cycle.
BEEEES!
Rabble Red
Modern
Burn
Infect
One thing many people seem to have missed is that Magic Origins is not just a core set. The creators did not just change the naming scheme, but stated outright that Magic Origins is more than a core set. While some considerations might still apply, more specifically this is a segue into the new paradigm - and also something special to send off the old ways.
That being said excessive shuffling is an issue they are aware of not only for core sets, but something they use carefully. Obviously they will allow it when returning fan-favorites like the fetchlands and solid tools like Evolving Wilds, but otherwise they'll keep alternative options in mind as well.
Finally a good white villain quote: "So, do I ever re-evaluate my life choices? Never, because I know what I'm doing is a righteous cause."
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true. I remember clearly how everyone HATED having the shock lands reprinted in RTR
Pioneer: WURFaerie fires BRGDragons
ModernBGElves WRBurn UR Fires Turns URGift Storm UG Twiddle Storm
Don't forget the outrage about the fetches in KTK. Hardly anybody bought the set...
...hm...
I said before that the reason I think it's possible that we see 10 duals is that (1) they did it before (10th) and (2) it will be a special set. Of course it is not for certain. Of course you might argue that there is no need, but this is the Speculation forum. You can't rule out the possibility.
ok, fine - unimaginative people who love everything to stay the same all the time, and want every sequel or re-make to be essentially that same original thing with a new label on the front - those people will love the idea of keeping everything 'status quo'. that way nothing new and scary ever happens and they can keep their world view all in neat boxes where this-piece-fits-with-that-piece and so on.
and talking purely about one aspect (the hype around specific valuable cards seeing a reprint) is kind of missing the point. I was suggesting that those cards DO see a reprint (we all want those tasty reprints, that's a given). I was suggesting wizards could switch up the formula a little and make room for new and interesting things to explore in the upcoming Zendikar block. don't forget there's also a story-element bound up with the design of each block, and the Zendikar we'll get this year should be pretty different to the last one we saw. i'm not a backstory-buff. i don't know exactly what was supposed to have happened in ZEN; but i do really appreciate the work that goes into this aspect, and I recognise the importance of making the actual mechanics of the cards reflect that story element. this is why i suggested that there might be something new and different, and that the fetches might get reprinted in origins, to appease the secondary market (something which wizards should honestly ignore for mainstream sets. side-products, sure, reprint expensive stuff. otherwise it warps the design).
when i said "nobody likes a re-hash", it was a general statement, but it has validity. there are (even in this one game) several powerful examples of sets which can broadly be called a "re-hash" and people hated them. and with the leaps and strides that Wizards have been making in terms of excellent creative design and balance in recent years (vast improvements), it would be a great shame for them to fall back on simplistic "more of the same" concepts rather than push the envelope and really use the brains of their excellent design teams.
but, you know, feel free to be sarcastic and tear apart my idea based on a meaningless tangent, taken from a tiny detail that has basically nothing to do with the actual point I was making. yeesh.