This just occurred to me, what if Bolas killing Ugin was to prevent a greater evil?
What if Bolas was trying to keep Ugin from uniting with the Eldrazi and becoming the most powerful planeswalker in the multiverse? What if the reason Ugin sealed the Eldrazi in Zendikar was not to imprison them, but to preserve them. What if Ugin planned to perish in the hands of Nicol Bolas knowing that the Eldrazi would be released and planeswalkers would seek to revive him? It seems rather convenient for him to be revived just in time for him to harness the Eldrazi's power.
Think about it, people like to associate themselves with others like them, and the Eldrazi are manifestations of colorless mana just like Ugin. Ugin studied them and found their power to be the "Atomic bomb" he is looking for, and seeks to utilize their power in order to attack Bolas and the Phyrexians in an attempt to purify the multiverse. Then once Ugin wins over Bolas and the Phyrexians, nothing will be able to stop him from using the Eldrazi to control the multiverse.
I'm saying maybe, because I thought about what Bolas would say if he finds out that Ugin lived.
"The cruel ingenuity of the Phyrexians impresses me
The otherworldly power of the Eldrazi intrigues me
But Ugin, he is the only one that frightens me"
There's a reason why Bolas went out of his way to kill Ugin. He feels threatened by him. Now does that mean that Ugin is a "bad guy" as well? Maybe, probably not. But Ugin is the kind of being who will do great things. And beings who do truly great and impressive things often times skirt on the edge of good/evil. For example, Ugin may decide that the best way to deal with the Eldrazi it destroy all of Zendikar. Now depending on who you are, that makes him a good guy or a bad guy. Basically, I get an Adrian Veidt vibe from Ugin.
Your theory seems a tad farfetched in my opinion. Why would Ugin let himself be killed in order to "hopefully" be resurrected? It doesn't seem like the smartest our most foolproof plan to me; unless I missed it in the lore somewhere that Ugin can see into the future. I would think that a being of his power would not subject himself to a painful defeat and death to initiate a plan that depends on so many other variables.
He couldn't have planned to perish insofar as he was quite surprised when his dragons turned on him and began attacking him due to Bolas' mental control over them. This theory requires that Ugin wanted the Eldrazi let loose, which is what Bolas wanted, when Ugin was the one that trapped the Eldrazi in the first place. What stopped Ugin from controlling the Eldrazi the first time around when he sought out Sorin and Nahiri's help?
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One of these day I have to get myself organizized.
The best source we have for Ugin's thoughts about the Eldrazi are in Nahiri's Uncharted Realms story here.
Ugin (at least states that he) would rather stop the Eldrazi from eating worlds, but also says that destroying the Eldrazi "may not be possible" and "certainly isn't wise". In fact, Ugin prefers to NOT destroy the Eldrazi, but imprison them (possibly forever) instead. What percentage of his preference to not destroy the Eldrazi comes from the presumed futility and suicidality of destroying the Eldrazi, what percentage comes from his uncertainty (or possible knowledge) about how the Eldrazi fit in the multiversal ecosystem, and what percentage comes from his uncertainty about whether the Eldrazi "deserve death", I don't know.
At any rate, Nahiri retorts, "But I question the moral judgment of anyone who views the destruction of an entire world as a research project" after she learns that Ugin did nothing to help her and Sorin out with the inhabitants of a plane that the Eldrazi were attacking. (We never hear Ugin's reaction to this, as Sorin changes the subject.)
While I don't think that Ugin is explicitly planning to harness the Eldrazi, and I do think he'd rather stop them over and over again, he is possibly morally opposed to killing the Eldrazi, and I suspect he is fond of researching them.
The best source we have for Ugin's thoughts about the Eldrazi are in Nahiri's Uncharted Realms story here.
Ugin (at least states that he) would rather stop the Eldrazi from eating worlds, but also says that destroying the Eldrazi "may not be possible" and "certainly isn't wise". In fact, Ugin prefers to NOT destroy the Eldrazi, but imprison them (possibly forever) instead. What percentage of his preference to not destroy the Eldrazi comes from the presumed futility and suicidality of destroying the Eldrazi, what percentage comes from his uncertainty (or possible knowledge) about how the Eldrazi fit in the multiversal ecosystem, and what percentage comes from his uncertainty about whether the Eldrazi "deserve death", I don't know.
At any rate, Nahiri retorts, "But I question the moral judgment of anyone who views the destruction of an entire world as a research project" after she learns that Ugin did nothing to help her and Sorin out with the inhabitants of a plane that the Eldrazi were attacking. (We never hear Ugin's reaction to this, as Sorin changes the subject.)
While I don't think that Ugin is explicitly planning to harness the Eldrazi, and I do think he'd rather stop them over and over again, he is possibly morally opposed to killing the Eldrazi, and I suspect he is fond of researching them.
I think due to the fact that Ugin is colorless non-artifact similar to the Eldrazi would make him see them as possible allys rather than foes. I feel a Galactus vibe from Ugin.
The best source we have for Ugin's thoughts about the Eldrazi are in Nahiri's Uncharted Realms story here.
Ugin (at least states that he) would rather stop the Eldrazi from eating worlds, but also says that destroying the Eldrazi "may not be possible" and "certainly isn't wise". In fact, Ugin prefers to NOT destroy the Eldrazi, but imprison them (possibly forever) instead. What percentage of his preference to not destroy the Eldrazi comes from the presumed futility and suicidality of destroying the Eldrazi, what percentage comes from his uncertainty (or possible knowledge) about how the Eldrazi fit in the multiversal ecosystem, and what percentage comes from his uncertainty about whether the Eldrazi "deserve death", I don't know.
At any rate, Nahiri retorts, "But I question the moral judgment of anyone who views the destruction of an entire world as a research project" after she learns that Ugin did nothing to help her and Sorin out with the inhabitants of a plane that the Eldrazi were attacking. (We never hear Ugin's reaction to this, as Sorin changes the subject.)
While I don't think that Ugin is explicitly planning to harness the Eldrazi, and I do think he'd rather stop them over and over again, he is possibly morally opposed to killing the Eldrazi, and I suspect he is fond of researching them.
I think due to the fact that Ugin is colorless non-artifact similar to the Eldrazi would make him see them as possible allys rather than foes. I feel a Galactus vibe from Ugin.
Yes because taking an active role in imprisoning them in the first place makes them allies.
Ugin is a master of colorless magic, yes. But that doesn't mean that he wants to see every plane in the multiverse eaten by eldritch horrors. That is like saying that every black aligned mage is a necromancer, or every green aligned mage is a hippy druid. >.<
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What if Bolas was trying to keep Ugin from uniting with the Eldrazi and becoming the most powerful planeswalker in the multiverse? What if the reason Ugin sealed the Eldrazi in Zendikar was not to imprison them, but to preserve them. What if Ugin planned to perish in the hands of Nicol Bolas knowing that the Eldrazi would be released and planeswalkers would seek to revive him? It seems rather convenient for him to be revived just in time for him to harness the Eldrazi's power.
That's a lot of "what if"s. Ever heard of Occam's Razor?
What if Bolas was trying to keep Ugin from uniting with the Eldrazi and becoming the most powerful planeswalker in the multiverse? What if the reason Ugin sealed the Eldrazi in Zendikar was not to imprison them, but to preserve them. What if Ugin planned to perish in the hands of Nicol Bolas knowing that the Eldrazi would be released and planeswalkers would seek to revive him? It seems rather convenient for him to be revived just in time for him to harness the Eldrazi's power.
That's a lot of "what if"s. Ever heard of Occam's Razor?
"Easiest solution to a problem is probably the right one."
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The best source we have for Ugin's thoughts about the Eldrazi are in Nahiri's Uncharted Realms story here.
Ugin (at least states that he) would rather stop the Eldrazi from eating worlds, but also says that destroying the Eldrazi "may not be possible" and "certainly isn't wise". In fact, Ugin prefers to NOT destroy the Eldrazi, but imprison them (possibly forever) instead. What percentage of his preference to not destroy the Eldrazi comes from the presumed futility and suicidality of destroying the Eldrazi, what percentage comes from his uncertainty (or possible knowledge) about how the Eldrazi fit in the multiversal ecosystem, and what percentage comes from his uncertainty about whether the Eldrazi "deserve death", I don't know.
At any rate, Nahiri retorts, "But I question the moral judgment of anyone who views the destruction of an entire world as a research project" after she learns that Ugin did nothing to help her and Sorin out with the inhabitants of a plane that the Eldrazi were attacking. (We never hear Ugin's reaction to this, as Sorin changes the subject.)
While I don't think that Ugin is explicitly planning to harness the Eldrazi, and I do think he'd rather stop them over and over again, he is possibly morally opposed to killing the Eldrazi, and I suspect he is fond of researching them.
I think due to the fact that Ugin is colorless non-artifact similar to the Eldrazi would make him see them as possible allys rather than foes. I feel a Galactus vibe from Ugin.
I get a Galactus vibe from the Eldrazi.
Ugin seems more like...the Watcher, while we are comparing to Marvel characters.
What if Bolas was trying to keep Ugin from uniting with the Eldrazi and becoming the most powerful planeswalker in the multiverse? What if the reason Ugin sealed the Eldrazi in Zendikar was not to imprison them, but to preserve them. What if Ugin planned to perish in the hands of Nicol Bolas knowing that the Eldrazi would be released and planeswalkers would seek to revive him? It seems rather convenient for him to be revived just in time for him to harness the Eldrazi's power.
That's a lot of "what if"s. Ever heard of Occam's Razor?
"Easiest solution to a problem is probably the right one."
Technically, it's that the hypothesis that makes the least assumptions is most likely to be the right one, but you've got the right idea.
That's the thing about Ninetailedfox's theory; it requires a lot of assumptions to be possible.
It could be that Ugin is aware of the sheer amount of power it would take to actually destroy them, and the ramifications it would have on the multiverse itself, and does not want to cause much collateral damage.
If you look at how much collateral damage there was that occurred in the Urza vs. Yawgmoth conflict, and this was inflicted heavily by Urza, in his own madness to take down Yawgmoth (and the rest of Phyrexia). Ugin, while powerful, may have a better head on his shoulders (sanity wise), and see that if he does not cause so much collateral, the result will be better.
I'd rather think Ugin is the type who wants to preserve the multiverse as he doesn't yet know what function or use the eldrazi is to the multiverse.
As for Bolas, he's merely found an adversary that frightens him because Ugin can match or overpower him in a straight up match and because he's a planeswalker, Bolas cannot escape him like he can the Eldrazi.
And IF Ugin is actually a being who wants to preserve the multiverse overall as it is, then perhaps Bolas' plans are in direct conflict with Ugin's, making him a capable enemy.
Come to think of it, the Eldrazi are not planeswalkers but how do they actually travel between worlds? Do they all hop atop their respective "father"-titan and ride him to the next world and are the Titans able to phaseshift between worlds or do they simply "move"?
Come to think of it, the Eldrazi are not planeswalkers but how do they actually travel between worlds? Do they all hop atop their respective "father"-titan and ride him to the next world and are the Titans able to phaseshift between worlds or do they simply "move"?
As I understand it, the three titans are the only "real" Eldrazi; the rest are just extensions of one of the titans. An easier way to look at it is that each titan is the brain, and the titans' respective brood lineages are their bodies.
Here's the thing: normally, the titans themselves don't manifest on the planes they eat. The only reason they manifested on Zendikar is because of Ugin, Sorin, and Nahiri's meddling. It's kinda like how, when you're eating a bag of chips, you just stick your hand inside. So there's no actual planeswalking or planeshifting going on. The Eldrazi exist in the blind eternities, and they stick their fingers in nearby planes to scoop out the tasty planar goodness.
If this does not belong to Baseless Speculation, then I do not know what. This is about as reasonable as speculating that Ugin will turn into a singing ice-cream stand.
There is a lot of flaws in the "theory", but the biggest is: You cannot control the Eldrazi. The closest feat achieved in "controlling" them was luring them to a particular world (Zendikar) that was a priori very convenient lure (mana abundance).
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I'd imagine Ugin doesn't want to destroy them because he like other old time walkers learned their lesson during the mending about the consequences of unleashing that much power. Not even counting what it would take to destroy them just the release of the mass of mana they've accumulated into the blind eternities upon there death would likely be cataclysmic on par with the whole timespiral arc.. which might even be what Bolas wants as iirc he was only sorta pro mending as he thought he might find a place to hide and wait out of destruction caused from the rifts
I do find it rather interesting that Ugin is the only colorless none artifact entity that we have encountered other than the Eldrazi.
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Modern GB Rock U Flooding Merfolk RUG Delver Midrange WU Monks UW Tempo Geist GW Bogle GW Liege UR Tron B Vampires
Affinity Legacy
Fish
Goblins
Burn
Reanimator
Dredge
Affinity EDH W Akroma GBW Ghave BRU Thrax GR Ruric I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
Considering the flavor text on the reprint of Tormenting Voice in DTK, and Bolas' part in the Eldrazi's release, I doubt Ugin has selfish plans for the Eldrazi. On the contrary, I think Ugin's revival may have been part of Bolas' plan.
I get the feeling that Ugin may be more morally ambiguous than he lets on, but I don't think he's an evil mastermind on the level of Bolas. Besides, it's not like the Eldrazi can be "controlled" anyway.
Considering the flavor text on the reprint of Tormenting Voice in DTK, and Bolas' part in the Eldrazi's release, I doubt Ugin has selfish plans for the Eldrazi. On the contrary, I think Ugin's revival may have been part of Bolas' plan.
No. Bolas saw Ugin as a rival. The spirit dragon was not only a dragon, but also a planeswalker, as such Bolas saw him as a threat and reacted like any fiercely territorial dragon would, but challenging and slaying his rival. Of course, Sarkhan ended up being a spanner in the works regarding Ugin's death.
Ugin is dispassionate and alien in his mindset, but he is not evil, and he knows that the Eldrazi is a threat not just to Zendikar, but to every world in the multiverse, which is why he aided Nahili and Sorin in sealing them in the first place.
Heck, Ugin doesn't even seem to display many of the other characteristics of dragons in the multiverse, he is neither aggressive (unlike some of his children), nor interested in treasure. He appears to lack any emotion at all.
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Bolas saw Ugin as a rival, before the Mending. Now, Ugin has been asleep for a thousand years. His body and magic would both have atrophied significantly. He also has no experience with his post-Mending powers. In addition to post-Mending practice, Bolas absorbed Alara's Maelstrom. While Ugin may still be powerful, Bolas is far more so.
And then there's what could be gained by Ugin's living again. Bolas has moved, unchallenged, among the planes for a millennium. He's learned things in his desire to regain his pre-Mending power, as has Ob Nixilis, that the key to regaining that power may involve sacrifice. If Bolas could channel Ugin's power into himself somehow, he might be able to regain ultimate power.
Thus I conclude the voice in Vol's head was never Ugin. It has always been Bolas. Bolas guided Vol to Ugin's Nexus, back in time. Vol "saved" Ugin from his first, almost meaningless death. Now Bolas is in Ugin's mind, and will guide him to make a necessary sacrifice that Bolas will channel into himself, rather than the cause to which Ugin thinks he is giving himself.
Does anyone think Ugin or someone will try to trap the Eldrazi on Tarkir? I noticed that in the new dragons timeline the ecosystem is rather overwhelmed, and many species are being led to extinction so the plane could be used as a new container.
Bolas saw Ugin as a rival, before the Mending. Now, Ugin has been asleep for a thousand years. His body and magic would both have atrophied significantly. He also has no experience with his post-Mending powers. In addition to post-Mending practice, Bolas absorbed Alara's Maelstrom. While Ugin may still be powerful, Bolas is far more so.
And then there's what could be gained by Ugin's living again. Bolas has moved, unchallenged, among the planes for a millennium. He's learned things in his desire to regain his pre-Mending power, as has Ob Nixilis, that the key to regaining that power may involve sacrifice. If Bolas could channel Ugin's power into himself somehow, he might be able to regain ultimate power.
Thus I conclude the voice in Vol's head was never Ugin. It has always been Bolas. Bolas guided Vol to Ugin's Nexus, back in time. Vol "saved" Ugin from his first, almost meaningless death. Now Bolas is in Ugin's mind, and will guide him to make a necessary sacrifice that Bolas will channel into himself, rather than the cause to which Ugin thinks he is giving himself.
Except, we've been specifically told that the voice in Vol's mind was a sliver of Ugin. Remember, Ugin and Bolas fought pre-mending over a thousand years ago. And back then, Planeswalkers where a lot harder to kill than today. So it is quite likely that Ugin, when knowing that he would lose, hid away a small portion of his consciousness that Vol eventually picked up.
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Pascite draconem, evolvite aut morimini.
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What if Bolas was trying to keep Ugin from uniting with the Eldrazi and becoming the most powerful planeswalker in the multiverse? What if the reason Ugin sealed the Eldrazi in Zendikar was not to imprison them, but to preserve them. What if Ugin planned to perish in the hands of Nicol Bolas knowing that the Eldrazi would be released and planeswalkers would seek to revive him? It seems rather convenient for him to be revived just in time for him to harness the Eldrazi's power.
Think about it, people like to associate themselves with others like them, and the Eldrazi are manifestations of colorless mana just like Ugin. Ugin studied them and found their power to be the "Atomic bomb" he is looking for, and seeks to utilize their power in order to attack Bolas and the Phyrexians in an attempt to purify the multiverse. Then once Ugin wins over Bolas and the Phyrexians, nothing will be able to stop him from using the Eldrazi to control the multiverse.
What does everyone think of this theory?
"The cruel ingenuity of the Phyrexians impresses me
The otherworldly power of the Eldrazi intrigues me
But Ugin, he is the only one that frightens me"
There's a reason why Bolas went out of his way to kill Ugin. He feels threatened by him. Now does that mean that Ugin is a "bad guy" as well? Maybe, probably not. But Ugin is the kind of being who will do great things. And beings who do truly great and impressive things often times skirt on the edge of good/evil. For example, Ugin may decide that the best way to deal with the Eldrazi it destroy all of Zendikar. Now depending on who you are, that makes him a good guy or a bad guy. Basically, I get an Adrian Veidt vibe from Ugin.
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Ugin (at least states that he) would rather stop the Eldrazi from eating worlds, but also says that destroying the Eldrazi "may not be possible" and "certainly isn't wise". In fact, Ugin prefers to NOT destroy the Eldrazi, but imprison them (possibly forever) instead. What percentage of his preference to not destroy the Eldrazi comes from the presumed futility and suicidality of destroying the Eldrazi, what percentage comes from his uncertainty (or possible knowledge) about how the Eldrazi fit in the multiversal ecosystem, and what percentage comes from his uncertainty about whether the Eldrazi "deserve death", I don't know.
At any rate, Nahiri retorts, "But I question the moral judgment of anyone who views the destruction of an entire world as a research project" after she learns that Ugin did nothing to help her and Sorin out with the inhabitants of a plane that the Eldrazi were attacking. (We never hear Ugin's reaction to this, as Sorin changes the subject.)
While I don't think that Ugin is explicitly planning to harness the Eldrazi, and I do think he'd rather stop them over and over again, he is possibly morally opposed to killing the Eldrazi, and I suspect he is fond of researching them.
I think due to the fact that Ugin is colorless non-artifact similar to the Eldrazi would make him see them as possible allys rather than foes. I feel a Galactus vibe from Ugin.
Yes because taking an active role in imprisoning them in the first place makes them allies.
Ugin is a master of colorless magic, yes. But that doesn't mean that he wants to see every plane in the multiverse eaten by eldritch horrors. That is like saying that every black aligned mage is a necromancer, or every green aligned mage is a hippy druid. >.<
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Numquam evolutioni obstes. Solum conculceris.
Pascite draconem, evolvite aut morimini.
That's a lot of "what if"s. Ever heard of Occam's Razor?
"Easiest solution to a problem is probably the right one."
---
Numquam evolutioni obstes. Solum conculceris.
Pascite draconem, evolvite aut morimini.
I get a Galactus vibe from the Eldrazi.
Ugin seems more like...the Watcher, while we are comparing to Marvel characters.
Technically, it's that the hypothesis that makes the least assumptions is most likely to be the right one, but you've got the right idea.
That's the thing about Ninetailedfox's theory; it requires a lot of assumptions to be possible.
If you look at how much collateral damage there was that occurred in the Urza vs. Yawgmoth conflict, and this was inflicted heavily by Urza, in his own madness to take down Yawgmoth (and the rest of Phyrexia). Ugin, while powerful, may have a better head on his shoulders (sanity wise), and see that if he does not cause so much collateral, the result will be better.
As for Bolas, he's merely found an adversary that frightens him because Ugin can match or overpower him in a straight up match and because he's a planeswalker, Bolas cannot escape him like he can the Eldrazi.
And IF Ugin is actually a being who wants to preserve the multiverse overall as it is, then perhaps Bolas' plans are in direct conflict with Ugin's, making him a capable enemy.
Come to think of it, the Eldrazi are not planeswalkers but how do they actually travel between worlds? Do they all hop atop their respective "father"-titan and ride him to the next world and are the Titans able to phaseshift between worlds or do they simply "move"?
As I understand it, the three titans are the only "real" Eldrazi; the rest are just extensions of one of the titans. An easier way to look at it is that each titan is the brain, and the titans' respective brood lineages are their bodies.
Here's the thing: normally, the titans themselves don't manifest on the planes they eat. The only reason they manifested on Zendikar is because of Ugin, Sorin, and Nahiri's meddling. It's kinda like how, when you're eating a bag of chips, you just stick your hand inside. So there's no actual planeswalking or planeshifting going on. The Eldrazi exist in the blind eternities, and they stick their fingers in nearby planes to scoop out the tasty planar goodness.
There is a lot of flaws in the "theory", but the biggest is: You cannot control the Eldrazi. The closest feat achieved in "controlling" them was luring them to a particular world (Zendikar) that was a priori very convenient lure (mana abundance).
Let this great clan rest in peace (2001-2011)
GB Rock
U Flooding Merfolk
RUG Delver Midrange
WU Monks
UW Tempo Geist
GW Bogle
GW Liege
UR Tron
B Vampires
Affinity
Legacy
Fish
Goblins
Burn
Reanimator
Dredge
Affinity
EDH
W Akroma
GBW Ghave
BRU Thrax
GR Ruric
I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
Standard: UGB Hardened Skulker
Commander:
GWU Jenara, Asura of War
WUBRG Progenitus / Allies
UBR Scry / Mill
WUB Dakkon Landfall
No. Bolas saw Ugin as a rival. The spirit dragon was not only a dragon, but also a planeswalker, as such Bolas saw him as a threat and reacted like any fiercely territorial dragon would, but challenging and slaying his rival. Of course, Sarkhan ended up being a spanner in the works regarding Ugin's death.
Ugin is dispassionate and alien in his mindset, but he is not evil, and he knows that the Eldrazi is a threat not just to Zendikar, but to every world in the multiverse, which is why he aided Nahili and Sorin in sealing them in the first place.
Heck, Ugin doesn't even seem to display many of the other characteristics of dragons in the multiverse, he is neither aggressive (unlike some of his children), nor interested in treasure. He appears to lack any emotion at all.
---
Numquam evolutioni obstes. Solum conculceris.
Pascite draconem, evolvite aut morimini.
And then there's what could be gained by Ugin's living again. Bolas has moved, unchallenged, among the planes for a millennium. He's learned things in his desire to regain his pre-Mending power, as has Ob Nixilis, that the key to regaining that power may involve sacrifice. If Bolas could channel Ugin's power into himself somehow, he might be able to regain ultimate power.
Thus I conclude the voice in Vol's head was never Ugin. It has always been Bolas. Bolas guided Vol to Ugin's Nexus, back in time. Vol "saved" Ugin from his first, almost meaningless death. Now Bolas is in Ugin's mind, and will guide him to make a necessary sacrifice that Bolas will channel into himself, rather than the cause to which Ugin thinks he is giving himself.
Standard: UGB Hardened Skulker
Commander:
GWU Jenara, Asura of War
WUBRG Progenitus / Allies
UBR Scry / Mill
WUB Dakkon Landfall
Except, we've been specifically told that the voice in Vol's mind was a sliver of Ugin. Remember, Ugin and Bolas fought pre-mending over a thousand years ago. And back then, Planeswalkers where a lot harder to kill than today. So it is quite likely that Ugin, when knowing that he would lose, hid away a small portion of his consciousness that Vol eventually picked up.
---
Numquam evolutioni obstes. Solum conculceris.
Pascite draconem, evolvite aut morimini.