What about a return of monocolor hybrid mana? Could fit with the idea of a colorless basic land, Eldrazi and Ugin spirit dragon colorless cards?
With all the Barry's land discussion, this comment got overshadowed, but I believe it warrants discussion.
Mono colored hybrid only saw a little use. We had Reaper King and the Flame Javelin cycle, but there's a lot more space for design.
Mono hybrid would fit well with Barry's land (however they decide to do it), as well as some of the suggested "colorless matters" keywords.
Mono hybrid also give Eldrazi more substance, allowing players to cast them for cheaper if they run the colors that those Eldrazi are.
In addition, it fits into the flavor well. An Eldrazi that has been eating all the mana from mountainous regions could be cast with red mana.
But that would effectively ruin the "colorless matters"-theme, now wouldn't it? It only means that all decks can effectively cast all those cards eventually but it doesn't reward you for going colorless - unless they plan to make Land - Lotus again, which I'm pretty confident that they wont.
There is the rules solution where the effect of the card can be diminished by the use of colored mana:
"Energy Javelin
Instant
Energy Javelin deals 6 minus the amount of colored mana spent on casting Energy Javelin to target creature or player."
In terms of Barry's land:
It has already been suggested by Camarid earlier in this thread but what exactly would be the trouble with a Relentless Rats / Shadowborn Apostle mechanic land?
It has been said that the issue with Barry's land is basically rooted in the additional basic land type, so this fix could service EDH-colorless and potentially some colorless matters theme in BFZ. The second problem is the non-basic subtype which causes Ruination to devastate such players (mainly for EDH). Come to think of it there's also the problem with basic-based searches like Collective Voyage that basically leaves the colorless "basics" in the dirt.
A rather clunky fix could be:
Barry's non-domain land
Land
Unlimited - A deck can contain any number of this card.
Barry's non-domain land counts as a basic land while (searching/in?) your library and/or hand.
Barry's non-domain land cannot be destroyed or sacrificed for being a nonbasic land. T: Add 1 to your mana pool.
"Unlimited" to make it basic-quantity and keywording Relentless Rats' "mechanic". Whether it's needed is dubious but it would make it easier to refer to.
"Count as basic while searching library/hand" - takes care of the disadvantages of basic land searching, along with some rather unpleasant hate-cards. I'm not certain which term is the best; a temporary while searching or a permanent. Perhaps it should be reworded to "Barry's non-domain land counts as a basic land while not on the battlefield." - Makes it untargetable in graveyard as a nonbasic land/card, you can drop it through basic land drops and avoid nonbasic hand-hate and still search it forth from Basic land abundance.
"cannot be destroyed or sacrificed for being a nonbasic land" - takes care of Ruination and its ilk whilst leaving standard land destruction or noncreature destruction the same against it.
Basically it would be so much easier to have it say "Barry's ... doesn't count as a nonbasic land" - but then what does it count as? It would truly be the best solution to the issues with the card if there's no further implications for it to not be a basic land nor a nonbasic land.
Such a card would "just" read:
Barry's simplified land
Land
Unlimited - A deck can contain any number of this card.
Barry's simplified land counts as a basic land while not on the battlefield.
Barry's simplified land doesn't count as a nonbasic land. T: Add 1 to your mana pool.
And let someone point out the flaws of this design within 5 minutes
Just to be certain WotC posts card rulings for Coalition Victory and Domain to clearly state that Barry's Simplified Land doesn't affect either of those mechanics.
Oh and if anyone actually want to point fingers at nonbasic land not being a nonbasic land - "But that doesn't make any sense. Then it's nothing?" - my response would be "Phasing. It's on the board and then again it doesn't exist." Yeah, we love Magic for being weird.
Your altered flame javelin example was what I was talking about when I said that they would work well with some of the "colorless matters" keywords or mechanics that had been created in this thread.
Have mono hybrid cards that reward you for paying colorless.
Trying to not get into custom card creation territory here, but would something like this be too good:
Eldrazi beast (2/r) (2/r)
Creature 2/1
Anti-sunburst (this comes I to play with a +1/+1 counter on it for each colorless spent to play it.)
When this dies, put Eldrazi spawns into play for each +1/+1 counter on this.
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Quote from ebcubs03 »
so if i am that player do i get to sleep with his girlfriend ?
Your altered flame javelin example was what I was talking about when I said that they would work well with some of the "colorless matters" keywords or mechanics that had been created in this thread.
Have mono hybrid cards that reward you for paying colorless.
Trying to not get into custom card creation territory here, but would something like this be too good:
Eldrazi beast (2/r) (2/r)
Creature 2/1
Anti-sunburst (this comes I to play with a +1/+1 counter on it for each colorless spent to play it.)
When this dies, put Eldrazi spawns into play for each +1/+1 counter on this.
This card and possibly the whole mechanic is crazy broken. A 4 mana 6/5 that when it dies you get 4 chump blockers or 4 extra mana, that is crazy broken
Yeah, I can understand that card being too good, but I don't thjnk the mechanic itself is broken. Why? Because you have to spend colorless on it to get the pumps.
Which basically makes colorless a sixth color. Think about if it cost RRRR. A 6/5 for RRRR that makes chump blockers is still really good, but doesn't sound nearly as broken as the same card for 4. That's basically what this is, since the ability only gives you counters if you pay colorless for it.
From what I can tell, the issue there would be lands that add two colors and also colorless, since then it would be a land that basically adds three colors. But as far as standard is concerned, the pain lands are rotating out, and there's no other lands that I can think of that do something similar. Now, modern and the other eternal formats might has an issue with it, but they've likely got better things to play anyway.
My point is that, if you want to play cards with a colorless-matters mechanic in a deck that also runs other colors, you will have to dilute your mana base to accomadate Barry's land or nonbasics that produce colorless, and in theory that should balance itself out.it would be just like adding another color to your deck.
Wanna be mono-colorless? Then prepare to pay a lot more mana for your stuff (if were talking about Mono-hybrid plus colorless sunburst mechanic) and get trampled on by aggro decks because you don't have much in the way of colorless removal.
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so if i am that player do i get to sleep with his girlfriend ?
I have a post in speculation outlining the large possibility that Affinity for X will be returning very soon. We speculated affinity could be used as a way to give colorless Eldrazi a pseudo color identity. These two theory's seem to play well together.
A 6/5 for RRRR is like you said still really powerful. However it becomes even more troubling when you can effectively cast it on turn 2 or 3 as long as you have a mana rock or cards like Ancient Tomb or Mana Crypt.
How do you think these new colourless basics would be distributed so everyone will be able to get enough to play with? Every pack has a basic land, but you'd only have a 1 in 6 chance to get Barry's land. This would make it challenging to collect enough of them to play with right away. It'd be like when magic first started and not everyone had enough basics to play with.
I want to get new full art basics in BFZ, but I'm worried they might replace them with Barry's Land in every pack instead. Maybe the land packs in Fatpacks could be all Barry's Land to increase supply?
This is the least important problem facing Barry's Land. And the only one that's just a matter of time to fix anyway.
A 6/5 for RRRR is like you said still really powerful. However it becomes even more troubling when you can effectively cast it on turn 2 or 3 as long as you have a mana rock or cards like Ancient Tomb or Mana Crypt.
The mana rocks is a good point. I hate to linger on my example, but it's the only approximation of the suggested mechanics that we currently have.
I guess my line of thinking is that most people who have played against Phyrexian Obliterator would agree that, while it's an very powerful card, it is in no way broken. Obliterator is the closest card that has currently seen print to compare the example card too, and Obliterator is probably a better card.
I do like the idea of Affinity for basic land types coming back. That might make more sense than mono-hybrid. But I still really want to see mono hybrid.
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so if i am that player do i get to sleep with his girlfriend ?
I was just thinking that the colourless basic land Forsythe brought up a while back will most likely appear in this set and the eldrazi mechanic caring about colourless mana could be very cool: it strikes me as something that could give them a distinct identity since I don't think we've had a mechanic that cares about colourless mana yet; much better than annihilator which was too oppressive.
Seeing as Emrakul has protection from colored spells, I think it's okay to assume that we'll see an influx in new olorless burn spells, or colorless-themes, like Ghostfire. With Ugin as a colorless planeswalker with a Ghostfire ability, it seems likely that there will be some Emrakul removal spells somewhere, as the set makes it seem like the Eldrazi re going to be defeated.
A 6th "basic land" type will never be a thing. No Barry's land aka "Cave" - No to a "ruins" basic land. Sure the article is 6 years old. But this is one point I don't see MaRo going back on. Take out basic land on that Ruins land and you might just have something.
Besides, Purple is the 6th color. DUH!
I've read this article a dozen times and Cave seems like the cleanest solution. And considering the collector's number on that leaked Evolving Wilds, I think if BFZ is the set where they finally introduce the sixth basic land, they'd give it extra slots to make sure there were enough in circulation.
If we get another Ghostfire type of card, I would prefer that they use monocolor hybrid mana ((2/W)(2/U)(2/B)(2/R)(2/G)) to preserve the feel of the card being colorless. Look at Flame Javelin; Ghostfire could work like that. Drop 1 point of damage and the card can scale pretty well at (2/R)(2/R).
Ghostflame (2/R)(2/R)
Instant (This card is colorless.)
~ deals 3 damage to target creature or player.
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MTGS Wikia Article about "New World Order"
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
PSA to everyone who keeps forgetting about the Reserved List:
You're on a website dedicated to talking about MtG. You're only a few keystrokes away from finding out what cards are on the Reserved List. You're also only a few keystrokes away from finding out why some cards on the Reserved List got foil printings in FtV, as Judge promos, or whatnot, as well as why that won't happen again. Stop doing this.
If we get another Ghostfire type of card, I would prefer that they use monocolor hybrid mana ((2/W)(2/U)(2/B)(2/R)(2/G)) to preserve the feel of the card being colorless. Look at Flame Javelin; Ghostfire could work like that. Drop 1 point of damage and the card can scale pretty well at (2/R)(2/R).
Ghostflame (2/R)(2/R)
Instant (This card is colorless.)
~ deals 3 damage to target creature or player.
That brings up a separate question of if dealing colorless damage is open to all colors, or a reflection of specific color types (Red and Black being the likely ones). Something that is all monocolor hybrid could open up the door to direct damage in other colors that aren't supposed to have access, and I'm not sure if the higher cost would necessarily balance out.
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----- "I cannot tune a harp or play a lyre, but I know how to make a small city great." - Themistocles
you could do that, but it's not the same, and few people will play them outside standard because losing half of your land base to Extirpate sounds like a horrible game.
They could do the same thing by making it a basic without a type, avoid all the issues having a sixth type would create, and provided built in stability for colorless by protecting it from non basic hate cards.
That brings up a separate question of if dealing colorless damage is open to all colors, or a reflection of specific color types (Red and Black being the likely ones). Something that is all monocolor hybrid could open up the door to direct damage in other colors that aren't supposed to have access, and I'm not sure if the higher cost would necessarily balance out.
Artifacts have granted every color access to direct damage since the beginning. A damage-dealing spell that can be cast in any color isn't anything new, nor has it been a long time since we've seen colorlessdamagecards. Twobrid basically says "any color can play this, but play one specific color and you get this cheaper". And in the case of a colorless damage spell, it makes perfect sense that red gets it for cheap.
Private Mod Note
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MTGS Wikia Article about "New World Order"
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
PSA to everyone who keeps forgetting about the Reserved List:
You're on a website dedicated to talking about MtG. You're only a few keystrokes away from finding out what cards are on the Reserved List. You're also only a few keystrokes away from finding out why some cards on the Reserved List got foil printings in FtV, as Judge promos, or whatnot, as well as why that won't happen again. Stop doing this.
Print it and ban it in all format except standart and commander. I like this idea the most.
Print land like:
Ground
You can have any number of this cards in your deck. You can search for it as it was basic land. Any effect that affect none-basic land can't affect this land.
If they go the Cave route (Cave// Basic Land - Cave // T: add 1 to your mana pool), the only formats that would need any type of rules babysitting would be any older block that had domain (so, I believe that's Invasion block and Alara block). Just make a rule saying that if you're playing those blocks (sealed or constructed), then Cave simply doesn't exist.
Anywhere else, then domain goes to six and Evolving Wilds now has an extra type of land it can fetch. I really don't understand what's taken WOTC so long to make this happen.
I know they find a sixth land type hard to implement, but why can't we just have a basic land that doesn't have a type?
Dunes
Basic Land
T: Add 1 to your mana pool.
We can... and your example is exactly what I expect to see. I suggested the exact same solution a few pages back, but was shot down by all the people making this way more complex than it has to be.
Yep! That was an amazingly long time ago now.
Introducing a 6th color or basic land type strikes me as a bad idea, but simply making an untyped colorless basic land seems fine if a little awkward.
There is the rules solution where the effect of the card can be diminished by the use of colored mana:
"Energy Javelin
Instant
Energy Javelin deals 6 minus the amount of colored mana spent on casting Energy Javelin to target creature or player."
In terms of Barry's land:
It has already been suggested by Camarid earlier in this thread but what exactly would be the trouble with a Relentless Rats / Shadowborn Apostle mechanic land?
It has been said that the issue with Barry's land is basically rooted in the additional basic land type, so this fix could service EDH-colorless and potentially some colorless matters theme in BFZ. The second problem is the non-basic subtype which causes Ruination to devastate such players (mainly for EDH). Come to think of it there's also the problem with basic-based searches like Collective Voyage that basically leaves the colorless "basics" in the dirt.
A rather clunky fix could be:
Land
Unlimited - A deck can contain any number of this card.
Barry's non-domain land counts as a basic land while (searching/in?) your library and/or hand.
Barry's non-domain land cannot be destroyed or sacrificed for being a nonbasic land.
T: Add 1 to your mana pool.
"Unlimited" to make it basic-quantity and keywording Relentless Rats' "mechanic". Whether it's needed is dubious but it would make it easier to refer to.
"Count as basic while searching library/hand" - takes care of the disadvantages of basic land searching, along with some rather unpleasant hate-cards. I'm not certain which term is the best; a temporary while searching or a permanent. Perhaps it should be reworded to "Barry's non-domain land counts as a basic land while not on the battlefield." - Makes it untargetable in graveyard as a nonbasic land/card, you can drop it through basic land drops and avoid nonbasic hand-hate and still search it forth from Basic land abundance.
"cannot be destroyed or sacrificed for being a nonbasic land" - takes care of Ruination and its ilk whilst leaving standard land destruction or noncreature destruction the same against it.
There's still problems with Price of Progress, Blood Moon and such cards...
Basically it would be so much easier to have it say "Barry's ... doesn't count as a nonbasic land" - but then what does it count as? It would truly be the best solution to the issues with the card if there's no further implications for it to not be a basic land nor a nonbasic land.
Such a card would "just" read:
Land
Unlimited - A deck can contain any number of this card.
Barry's simplified land counts as a basic land while not on the battlefield.
Barry's simplified land doesn't count as a nonbasic land.
T: Add 1 to your mana pool.
And let someone point out the flaws of this design within 5 minutes
Just to be certain WotC posts card rulings for Coalition Victory and Domain to clearly state that Barry's Simplified Land doesn't affect either of those mechanics.
Oh and if anyone actually want to point fingers at nonbasic land not being a nonbasic land - "But that doesn't make any sense. Then it's nothing?" - my response would be "Phasing. It's on the board and then again it doesn't exist." Yeah, we love Magic for being weird.
Have mono hybrid cards that reward you for paying colorless.
Trying to not get into custom card creation territory here, but would something like this be too good:
Eldrazi beast (2/r) (2/r)
Creature 2/1
Anti-sunburst (this comes I to play with a +1/+1 counter on it for each colorless spent to play it.)
When this dies, put Eldrazi spawns into play for each +1/+1 counter on this.
About Mindslaver rulings:
This card and possibly the whole mechanic is crazy broken. A 4 mana 6/5 that when it dies you get 4 chump blockers or 4 extra mana, that is crazy broken
Which basically makes colorless a sixth color. Think about if it cost RRRR. A 6/5 for RRRR that makes chump blockers is still really good, but doesn't sound nearly as broken as the same card for 4. That's basically what this is, since the ability only gives you counters if you pay colorless for it.
From what I can tell, the issue there would be lands that add two colors and also colorless, since then it would be a land that basically adds three colors. But as far as standard is concerned, the pain lands are rotating out, and there's no other lands that I can think of that do something similar. Now, modern and the other eternal formats might has an issue with it, but they've likely got better things to play anyway.
My point is that, if you want to play cards with a colorless-matters mechanic in a deck that also runs other colors, you will have to dilute your mana base to accomadate Barry's land or nonbasics that produce colorless, and in theory that should balance itself out.it would be just like adding another color to your deck.
Wanna be mono-colorless? Then prepare to pay a lot more mana for your stuff (if were talking about Mono-hybrid plus colorless sunburst mechanic) and get trampled on by aggro decks because you don't have much in the way of colorless removal.
About Mindslaver rulings:
This is the least important problem facing Barry's Land. And the only one that's just a matter of time to fix anyway.
The mana rocks is a good point. I hate to linger on my example, but it's the only approximation of the suggested mechanics that we currently have.
I guess my line of thinking is that most people who have played against Phyrexian Obliterator would agree that, while it's an very powerful card, it is in no way broken. Obliterator is the closest card that has currently seen print to compare the example card too, and Obliterator is probably a better card.
I do like the idea of Affinity for basic land types coming back. That might make more sense than mono-hybrid. But I still really want to see mono hybrid.
About Mindslaver rulings:
Dance, my puppet!
I've read this article a dozen times and Cave seems like the cleanest solution. And considering the collector's number on that leaked Evolving Wilds, I think if BFZ is the set where they finally introduce the sixth basic land, they'd give it extra slots to make sure there were enough in circulation.
Ghostflame (2/R)(2/R)
Instant
(This card is colorless.)
~ deals 3 damage to target creature or player.
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
Dunes
Basic Land
T: Add 1 to your mana pool.
WWWAvacyn: We Can Make The World StopWWW
That brings up a separate question of if dealing colorless damage is open to all colors, or a reflection of specific color types (Red and Black being the likely ones). Something that is all monocolor hybrid could open up the door to direct damage in other colors that aren't supposed to have access, and I'm not sure if the higher cost would necessarily balance out.
"I cannot tune a harp or play a lyre, but I know how to make a small city great." - Themistocles
I like your post. I think Zendikar is best plane for introducing this Barry's land. Like land that was consumed or drained by eldrazi.
They could do the same thing by making it a basic without a type, avoid all the issues having a sixth type would create, and provided built in stability for colorless by protecting it from non basic hate cards.
WWWAvacyn: We Can Make The World StopWWW
Artifacts have granted every color access to direct damage since the beginning. A damage-dealing spell that can be cast in any color isn't anything new, nor has it been a long time since we've seen colorless damage cards. Twobrid basically says "any color can play this, but play one specific color and you get this cheaper". And in the case of a colorless damage spell, it makes perfect sense that red gets it for cheap.
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
You can have any number of this cards in your deck. You can search for it as it was basic land. Any effect that affect none-basic land can't affect this land.
Anywhere else, then domain goes to six and Evolving Wilds now has an extra type of land it can fetch. I really don't understand what's taken WOTC so long to make this happen.
Unless, of course, you are suggesting a land that can tap for both red and colorless, which... would seem to run afoul of being better than Mountain.
Haramis's solution works perfectly.