I think Return to Zendikar would make more sense, but mainly I voted no in order to win either way. If they don't get reprinted in DTK, ha, I'm right. If they do, I'm wrong and I comfort myself by picking up the fetches I want on the cheap.
Not since DTK has been revealed to be ally coloured.
I believe that the enemy fetches will be printed next autumn in the 'Blood' set (I also think that 'Blood' will be the start of the 'Return to Zendikar' block, incidentally).
This would mean that the fetches would not appear in the same standard environment at the same time, but would also mean that they were standard legal for much longer.
It also seems like Wizards stand to make less money if they print all the fetches together, better to wait until people are hungry for them again to ensure high sales.
For those who are suggesting that allied colored clans indicate that they will not be printing enemy colored fetchlands, I point to Innistrad and the enemy check lands.
For those who are suggesting that allied colored clans indicate that they will not be printing enemy colored fetchlands, I point to Innistrad and the enemy check lands.
Also to KTK and the allied-color fetchlands, which are muss less useful in the wedges.
The "Enemy fetches won't be in because it's an ally set" argument is really not a good one. There's literally dozens of instances where the land base of a set doesn't match it's thematic colors. In fact, being an ally set, there's theoretically more argument, since fetches allow splashing enemy color without ending up with dead cards.
Plus my original argument I posted days back about how Ally fetches being the least useful in KTK.
Plus Wizards have stated that they intend to print full cycles of lands.
I'm not saying they will be in for sure. I mean, if someone had said they were going to print pain lands in a core set again prior to M15, I'd have laughed at them. But the facts add up to there being no hard reason for them not to print them, aside from reserving them for Zendikar, which only makes a little sense, since lands have been reprinted outside their original setting multiple times.
It does seem odd that they would put both friend and enemy fetch lands in one block simply because the sales bump from just one half seems to be a lot. Having both in seems a little greedy for one block.
Also, I guess I would have to disagree with Maro on that. Of course the true definition of "dual land" was for the original duals. It has since been expanded to usually include any land that produces two colors of mana. Fetches, mind you, do and are neither. They provide a utility function which can be responded to.
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Not since DTK has been revealed to be ally coloured.
I believe that the enemy fetches will be printed next autumn in the 'Blood' set (I also think that 'Blood' will be the start of the 'Return to Zendikar' block, incidentally).
This would mean that the fetches would not appear in the same standard environment at the same time, but would also mean that they were standard legal for much longer.
It also seems like Wizards stand to make less money if they print all the fetches together, better to wait until people are hungry for them again to ensure high sales.
Wow you speak,but dont know what your talking about.
Well youve already been disproven about "set can't have enemys because its allied" so i can skip ahead.
Only Theros block and M15 rotate when Blood set is realeased meaning all 10 fetches would be in standard at the same time. Not only that but they'd still be in standard for the same amount of time if the are reprinted in DTK. KTK & FRF dont rotate until Tears set is released in autumn of 2016. So we still have a year and eight months from now before the new rotation starts to go into effect.
And as much as id like them to be in DTK i will remind people of this...when Wizards was making these sets it was under the old three set blocks with a two year standard life span. Since the dont want too many shuffeling effects in standard and where working with that mentality enemy fetches might not be in because of that.
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I love how the last two people to post ignored the post just above them where they point out MaRo saying they will not always do ten land cycles.
Oh as of right now unless we are dropping to ten basic lands we probably don't have the space for Enemy fetches. With only 6-7 card slots for non basic lands I cannot see them putting in enemy fixing and no ally fixing when the gold cards will be ally pairs.
(For those of you who are going to argue that they did in Khans I remind you that the fetches still worked for a single clan and they had ten basic lands to handle the majority of the colour fixing)
Not saying it's dead, but the current number crunch certainly doesn't help
Here are a couple of comments by Mark Rosewater on the topic of printing all 10 pairs of dual lands (bold by me):
Quote from MaRo on May 10, 2013 »
grimlockandload asked: So I know that there are plenty of reasons why dual lands are usually ally-colored, (Devin Low explained most of them in a 2008 Latest Developments article) but as Return Block must surely have proved, there are quite a few people who prefer enemy color pairs to ally pairs. With this in mind, would it be reasonable of me to request a more even representation when it comes to things like dual lands, and also two colored spells in general, from now on?
R&D has come around on dual lands and now believes that we have to try and give the audience access to all ten pairs as much as we can.
necrogr1mtrvekvlt asked: If I remember right, you said something to the effect of how sets aren't going to have an incomplete cycle of rare lands. Is that a change that happened awhile ago, or is that one of the new changes for the future of standard?
That’s not what I said. For a long time we made playing ally colors much easier to play than enemy colors as a means to play up allies getting along. We decided messing with mana to convey color relationships was a bad idea and we chose to stop doing that.
We try to make sure that more often than not in Standard, there is help to play any two-color combination. That does not mean that we will always do this through ten card land cycles or that there won’t be done ebb and flow to how much help is available at any time.
So, they won't always print cycles of 10 duals. I think they will eventually reprint the enemy duals in a standard legal set, but I don't expect to see all 10 fetches in standard at the same time since this would result in too much shuffling in standard.
Thanks for digging up those quotes. It is these kinds of quotes that make me doubt the enemy fetches here, as it seems as if they want to lower expectations and not seem to be "breaking their promise" of all full cycles from now on.
However, I disagree entirely with the premise on shuffling. I would actually say that if they are so opposed to shuffling then it is better to have a shorter time with all the fetches legal, as the shuffling from ten legal fetches would not be that much more than with five; and certainly less in total than for two separate periods of five fetches legal.
It seems also like this isn't really a multicoloured set. As the number crunch shows, there really isn't space for that much multicoloured stuff. And we are told that the factions have a "focus in one colour". Under such a scenario the enemy fetches are much less "off" than in a set with a heavier multicoloured focus based on allied pairs.
And we were told that there were (at least prior to development) five uncommon mana rocks in the set. These would lessen the need for lower rarity fixing lands. I am guessing they have gone for rocks over lands in order to also provide the necessary ramp to reach the high CMC of the awesome bomby dragons.
All hope is still not out, but I agree it doesn't look super wonderful at the moment.
Yesterday I would have said 90% sure, now I'm saying 51%. One would think fetches would be one of the first things announced, but we will have to see. Honestly, I think the best argument for the fetchland reprint is the fact that they are going to let down a lot of players if it doesn't happen, and one of the big mottos of R&D is fulfill your audience's expectations. They've been burned before by not doing so (look at Dragonless Dragon's Maze...)
Yesterday I would have said 90% sure, now I'm saying 51%. One would think fetches would be one of the first things announced, but we will have to see. Honestly, I think the best argument for the fetchland reprint is the fact that they are going to let down a lot of players if it doesn't happen, and one of the big mottos of R&D is fulfill your audience's expectations. They've been burned before by not doing so (look at Dragonless Dragon's Maze...)
I think it is getting less and less likely we see fetches, but if they do announce them, it will probably be at PAX East this weekend .
Yesterday I would have said 90% sure, now I'm saying 51%. One would think fetches would be one of the first things announced, but we will have to see. Honestly, I think the best argument for the fetchland reprint is the fact that they are going to let down a lot of players if it doesn't happen, and one of the big mottos of R&D is fulfill your audience's expectations. They've been burned before by not doing so (look at Dragonless Dragon's Maze...)
I think it is getting less and less likely we see fetches, but if they do announce them, it will probably be at PAX East this weekend .
Oh! Didn't realize that Pax East is this weekend. Now I'm saying 70%! That would be a perfect time to announce them
Yesterday I would have said 90% sure, now I'm saying 51%. One would think fetches would be one of the first things announced, but we will have to see. Honestly, I think the best argument for the fetchland reprint is the fact that they are going to let down a lot of players if it doesn't happen, and one of the big mottos of R&D is fulfill your audience's expectations. They've been burned before by not doing so (look at Dragonless Dragon's Maze...)
They probably thought they were fulfilling the audience's expectations when they reprinted the allied fetchlands just a couple of months ago. Expecting enemy fetchlands in the very next large set in standard seems somewhat unrealistic, especially when you consider that modern just got access to all the fetchlands. I've gone back and forth, but I say no ZEN fetchlands. I agree that we would know early if they were going to be in DTK. For the enemy fetchlands, I'll guess 50% chance in Modern Masters 2, 50% chance in a future set once KTK rotates out of standard.
Dunno. I'd be surprised if Sarkhan is the only thing from Dragons at PAX. If for some reason they have a different cycle of rare duals, then I expect Stoddard to do his developmental article around their reasons. Which would be a good read probably....hmmm.... No, still hoping for fetches.
No. Hopefully. Just because I'm tired of guys rubbing their boosters and squeaking "fetch fetch fetch!" at each FNM before the draft begins.
We have incomplete sets so far, the fastlands, the M15 painlands, the manlands, and more then enough access to various colors (trilands, gainlands), that I don't see the appeal of immediately having all 10 fetches in the same set. I don't know from when this statement about 10-lands cycle is. And finally, we will explore Zendikar in Magic Origins, so they might put them in there. Or not.
No. Hopefully. Just because I'm tired of guys rubbing their boosters and squeaking "fetch fetch fetch!" at each FNM before the draft begins.
We have incomplete sets so far, the fastlands, the M15 painlands, the manlands, and more then enough access to various colors (trilands, gainlands), that I don't see the appeal of immediately having all 10 fetches in the same set. I don't know from when this statement about 10-lands cycle is. And finally, we will explore Zendikar in Magic Origins, so they might put them in there. Or not.
If you do not know where this "10 land cycle" comes from, you might read literally the first page of this thread where people actually provide link towards 1.) WOTC wanting to complete land cycles 2.) MARO answer to the question that he actually considers fetches duals and not utilitty lands.
They still put KTK fetches as consolation prize in some FRF boosters, so then would it mean that you can get the OONS fetches if you buy KTK and FRf boxes, and ZEN fetches only in DTK boxes? Or would they begin to put ZEN fetches in FRF boxes as of DTK's release? This seems somewhat convoluted to me, so I'm inclined to say no, but seeing is believing.
Maro never said they were going to print a full cycle in every block. Give me a source where he did if you disagree. R&D in recent years like to have STANDARD access to even color fixing, nothing was said about blocks, and even then it wasn't maro who said it. The quote everyone misrepresents was from the M15 article where they explained why there were only 5 painlands and had nothing to do with blocks at all, and still wasn't maro.
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I believe that the enemy fetches will be printed next autumn in the 'Blood' set (I also think that 'Blood' will be the start of the 'Return to Zendikar' block, incidentally).
This would mean that the fetches would not appear in the same standard environment at the same time, but would also mean that they were standard legal for much longer.
It also seems like Wizards stand to make less money if they print all the fetches together, better to wait until people are hungry for them again to ensure high sales.
Well, your high horse approach and arrogance are worthy of a facepalm as well (at least for me).
Instead of sarcastic posts, be so kind and read my post.
It addresses both flavor (against) and the extrapolation from available info (for).
Let this great clan rest in peace (2001-2011)
No, they can find a different way for fixing for standard (post KTK/FRF rotation).
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Plus my original argument I posted days back about how Ally fetches being the least useful in KTK.
Plus Wizards have stated that they intend to print full cycles of lands.
I'm not saying they will be in for sure. I mean, if someone had said they were going to print pain lands in a core set again prior to M15, I'd have laughed at them. But the facts add up to there being no hard reason for them not to print them, aside from reserving them for Zendikar, which only makes a little sense, since lands have been reprinted outside their original setting multiple times.
It does seem odd that they would put both friend and enemy fetch lands in one block simply because the sales bump from just one half seems to be a lot. Having both in seems a little greedy for one block.
Also, I guess I would have to disagree with Maro on that. Of course the true definition of "dual land" was for the original duals. It has since been expanded to usually include any land that produces two colors of mana. Fetches, mind you, do and are neither. They provide a utility function which can be responded to.
GB Rock
U Flooding Merfolk
RUG Delver Midrange
WU Monks
UW Tempo Geist
GW Bogle
GW Liege
UR Tron
B Vampires
Affinity
Legacy
Fish
Goblins
Burn
Reanimator
Dredge
Affinity
EDH
W Akroma
GBW Ghave
BRU Thrax
GR Ruric
I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
Wow you speak,but dont know what your talking about.
Well youve already been disproven about "set can't have enemys because its allied" so i can skip ahead.
Only Theros block and M15 rotate when Blood set is realeased meaning all 10 fetches would be in standard at the same time. Not only that but they'd still be in standard for the same amount of time if the are reprinted in DTK. KTK & FRF dont rotate until Tears set is released in autumn of 2016. So we still have a year and eight months from now before the new rotation starts to go into effect.
And as much as id like them to be in DTK i will remind people of this...when Wizards was making these sets it was under the old three set blocks with a two year standard life span. Since the dont want too many shuffeling effects in standard and where working with that mentality enemy fetches might not be in because of that.
BAfter the lights go out on you, after your worthless life is through. I will remember how you scream...B
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Oh as of right now unless we are dropping to ten basic lands we probably don't have the space for Enemy fetches. With only 6-7 card slots for non basic lands I cannot see them putting in enemy fixing and no ally fixing when the gold cards will be ally pairs.
(For those of you who are going to argue that they did in Khans I remind you that the fetches still worked for a single clan and they had ten basic lands to handle the majority of the colour fixing)
Not saying it's dead, but the current number crunch certainly doesn't help
Thanks for digging up those quotes. It is these kinds of quotes that make me doubt the enemy fetches here, as it seems as if they want to lower expectations and not seem to be "breaking their promise" of all full cycles from now on.
However, I disagree entirely with the premise on shuffling. I would actually say that if they are so opposed to shuffling then it is better to have a shorter time with all the fetches legal, as the shuffling from ten legal fetches would not be that much more than with five; and certainly less in total than for two separate periods of five fetches legal.
It seems also like this isn't really a multicoloured set. As the number crunch shows, there really isn't space for that much multicoloured stuff. And we are told that the factions have a "focus in one colour". Under such a scenario the enemy fetches are much less "off" than in a set with a heavier multicoloured focus based on allied pairs.
And we were told that there were (at least prior to development) five uncommon mana rocks in the set. These would lessen the need for lower rarity fixing lands. I am guessing they have gone for rocks over lands in order to also provide the necessary ramp to reach the high CMC of the awesome bomby dragons.
All hope is still not out, but I agree it doesn't look super wonderful at the moment.
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Project: Khans of Tarkir Cube (cubetutor)
I think it is getting less and less likely we see fetches, but if they do announce them, it will probably be at PAX East this weekend .
They probably thought they were fulfilling the audience's expectations when they reprinted the allied fetchlands just a couple of months ago. Expecting enemy fetchlands in the very next large set in standard seems somewhat unrealistic, especially when you consider that modern just got access to all the fetchlands. I've gone back and forth, but I say no ZEN fetchlands. I agree that we would know early if they were going to be in DTK. For the enemy fetchlands, I'll guess 50% chance in Modern Masters 2, 50% chance in a future set once KTK rotates out of standard.
Cubetutor Peasant'ish-Funbox
Project: Khans of Tarkir Cube (cubetutor)
-Allied fetches reprint
-UW Narset
-Either mono G or WUBRG Sarkhan
Commander: WUBRG Superfriends, GW Rhys Tokens, WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon
Kitchen Table (now that's real Magic): WUBRG Domain, GU Biovisionary, UB Korlash Grandeur, UW Merfolk Mill
We have incomplete sets so far, the fastlands, the M15 painlands, the manlands, and more then enough access to various colors (trilands, gainlands), that I don't see the appeal of immediately having all 10 fetches in the same set. I don't know from when this statement about 10-lands cycle is. And finally, we will explore Zendikar in Magic Origins, so they might put them in there. Or not.
If you do not know where this "10 land cycle" comes from, you might read literally the first page of this thread where people actually provide link towards 1.) WOTC wanting to complete land cycles 2.) MARO answer to the question that he actually considers fetches duals and not utilitty lands.