In RTR the shocks were reprinted in the third set. They kept their original expansion symbol but this was important because it made the third set more 'crackable' and allowed a larger flood of shocks into the market. Will they do the same with the fetches? I for one, surely hope so.
Probably not. The reason they had shocks in there was because they also had another land cycle other than basics that they could fit in there for limited purposes. Not the same. I'd like to see it happen but I seriously doubt it will happen. Probably enemy fetches in Louie though, WotC designed this block with modern in mind/I would be shocked if they aren't in there.
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hey you guys gave me a theory, so remember how mark said that the "time travel" element was "baked" into the block structure? what if they do it sort of like RTR but with dragons maze type of set in the middle ( the time travel element ).
so as RTR had 5 shocks as a large set, then 5 shocks in GTC, then various smaller chance to get on of the 10 shocks in DGM.
maybe Khans block will the same but with their version of DGM in the middle to show the time travel element.
so KTK 5 ons fetches, then a various smaller chance to get one of the 10 fetches in FRF, then 5 zen fetches in the third set.
This would actually make a lot of sense now that I think about it, but the time travel story and how that works needs to give us more information for this speculation to be more solid i think.
I guess a way to explain this is you're going back in time within the context and timeframe that Fate Reforged takes place such that the landscape is both from the future and as you time travel it changes to the past, all of this taking place within the story of Fate reforged.
Also @ Trifas, RTR may have been an entire multi block unlike KTK block. But KTK is 3 color instead of 2 color like RTR was, so it may be that you haven't accounted for the heavier mana requirements that 3 color needs even if it is for just 1 set out of the block.
That's certainly an interesting theory, but it poses some problems.
For RtR/GTC/DGM, DGM had a full set of 21 possible land options (10 common/10 rare/1 Mythic) to take up the basic land slot. Those lands (except Maze's End) didn't count against the number of cards in the set, and they had the set symbol for the set they were originally printed in.
They can't really do the "land slot" thing for Fate Reforged, because there's no common cycle of lands. So the cards would have to count against the cards in the set. Meaning that 10 rares in a small set would be fetchlands, which would have them showing up far too often and severely cut into the rare space for that set.
Also, it would be really weird to have a set symbol for a set that wasn't out yet.
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Uh Wildfire393...Magister of Worth was a secret promo card in another set. So their is precedent. And they wouldn't count against Fate Reforged's set count. Shocks didn't count against DGM, and yes the guild gates got specifically reprinted in DGM so they did count against its set size, and the all gods boosters didn't count against JOU, at least not the ones printed from Theros and Born of the Gods. And by the time Fate Reforged it released will know 'Louie' official name and set symbol. All Wizards has to say is 'Yes you can use those cards if you get them in a booster from that draft.' and that'll be it. And the Shocks still acted like a rare, they weren't seen that often in DGM boosters.
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In RTR the shocks were reprinted in the third set. They kept their original expansion symbol but this was important because it made the third set more 'crackable' and allowed a larger flood of shocks into the market. Will they do the same with the fetches? I for one, surely hope so.
Sorry to burst your dream bubble, but there is zero reason for doing it.
Dragon's Maze was special, needed fixing, and the shocks were a reasonable marketing move while fitting the reason for inclusion. Having the guildgates available for the lands slot allowed it.
Now, we are going to have a different large set (not small). If anything, we will get the enemy fetches there.
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Uh Wildfire393...Magister of Worth was a secret promo card in another set. So their is precedent. And they wouldn't count against Fate Reforged's set count. Shocks didn't count against DGM, and yes the guild gates got specifically reprinted in DGM so they did count against its set size, and the all gods boosters didn't count against JOU, at least not the ones printed from Theros and Born of the Gods. And by the time Fate Reforged it released will know 'Louie' official name and set symbol. All Wizards has to say is 'Yes you can use those cards if you get them in a booster from that draft.' and that'll be it. And the Shocks still acted like a rare, they weren't seen that often in DGM boosters.
Interesting, I didn't know there was actually a precedent for that. If they did end up doing that then I imagine they would not let you play the zen fetches in standard since it would make the price go up since they would be super rare to get and a lot of people would want to play them in their decks.
Sorry to burst your dream bubble, but there is zero reason for doing it.
Dragon's Maze was special, needed fixing, and the shocks were a reasonable marketing move while fitting the reason for inclusion. Having the guildgates available for the lands slot allowed it.
Now, we are going to have a different large set (not small). If anything, we will get the enemy fetches there.
Why are you guys saying DGM was special because it needed fixing? like i said RTR block was a pair colored block. KTK is only one set out of the 3 but it is Tri-colored so that could mean it needs even more fixing or just as much as RTR block needed.
not to mention shocklands are better fixing than fetches are.
unless im missing something it sounds fairly plausible that they do something along the lines of what i mentioned.
In RTR the shocks were reprinted in the third set. They kept their original expansion symbol but this was important because it made the third set more 'crackable' and allowed a larger flood of shocks into the market. Will they do the same with the fetches? I for one, surely hope so.
I think, universally, everyone kind of hopes Rare Lands will get on the Land Sheet and not the normal sheet. Lands are great, but, there almost always somewhat unsatisfying to open in limited, and equally hard to pass because they're generally worth your price of admission.
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Technically there's nothing preventing them from putting the Fetches on the land sheet for Reforged alongside regular old basic lands, with the same ratio of basic lands to Fetches as there was Gates to Shocks (taking into account the fact there are twice as many gates as basics). If the little stunt isn't announced beforehand and is 'discovered' it'd lead to a very interested limited.
They would have to point out, before Legality Day, that the Zend-Fetches wouldn't be street legal till Louie was. But that's a minor thing, and really not a bad thing since you pulled a Fetchland that isn't out yet you'll be happy.
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If they did that, the zen fetches from huey (showing up in FRF) would be modern legal I believe right? Since modern lets u play with reprints of cards that are legal in modern (like stronghold mana leaks for instance).
this could also explain why they did ONS fetches first, right? since they make less sense with wedge color sets, since they're better at enabling shards being allied color and all.
Since if they did it the other way around, Zen in KTK-> Zen+Ons in FRF. At that point in time you couldnt play the ONS ones in modern because it wouldn't have been a reprint of a legal card. Hence the ordering. Could also be other reasons but i guess this is a possibility.
Also if the set started out design-wise as a time travel set. MaRo stating that the ONS fetches were the first cards in KTK could be why they decided to include these first as part of their plan.
If they did that, the zen fetches from huey (showing up in FRF) would be modern legal I believe right? Since modern lets u play with reprints of cards that are legal in modern (like stronghold mana leaks for instance).
this could also explain why they did ONS fetches first, right? since they make less sense with wedge color sets, since they're better at enabling shards being allied color and all.
Since if they did it the other way around, Zen in KTK-> Zen+Ons in FRF. At that point in time you couldnt play the ONS ones in modern because it wouldn't have been a reprint of a legal card. Hence the ordering. Could also be other reasons but i guess this is a possibility.
Also if the set started out design-wise as a time travel set. MaRo stating that the ONS fetches were the first cards in KTK could be why they decided to include these first as part of their plan.
Yes the zen-fetches would be modern legal even of they showed up in FRF packs. Which I didn't even think off last time. And borrowing from that I really hope they print enemy version slowtap lands in KTK and then do land slot chances in FRF with allied slowtaps and enemy fetches foreshadowing their reprints coming in 'Louie'. That way the land slot still works similar to a boosters rarity. common=basic uncommon=slowtaps rare=fetches.
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I think it's a strong possibility. However, if the third set is mono-colored I feel like that possibility will decrease drastically since it then wouldn't need that kind of fixing in limited, but that's something we won't know for a while yet.
I think there's a good chance of it happening for the same reasons that they put all of the shocks in Dragon's Maze; there's a huge demand for them and putting a whole slew of them on the market will not only move packs, but it will be good for modern and legacy since it will make it much easier for newer players interested in the older formats to get the cards they need to make a viable deck.
Bottom line is that the huge demand of the fetches, partially caused by the recent increase in modern's popularity, pushed wizards to reprint them this block even though they were originally going to hold off for another year or so. I wouldn't be surprised at all if they did the same thing with this third set that they did with Dragon's Maze for the same reasons.
Bottom line is that the huge demand of the fetches, partially caused by the recent increase in modern's popularity, pushed wizards to reprint them this block even though they were originally going to hold off for another year or so. I wouldn't be surprised at all if they did the same thing with this third set that they did with Dragon's Maze for the same reasons.
The set was already finalize by the time of Aaron Forsythe statement, so much the set would have been ready for printing at that point. No one expected the prices to spike like they did, sure people expected them to reach prices like that without a reprint, just not as fast a what happened. And we already knew development is two years ahead of us. The part people miss is that they could have already had them in a set file two years ago, which MaRo confirmed was what ended up being the case since allied fetches where the first five cards added to Khans.
You cant compare DGM to FRF like that. DGM was drafted with RTR & GTC and just added more elements for those two sets. Fate Reforged is being drafted with two other sets separately. 'Louie' isn't going to be drafted with Khans so theres no point in putting a special land chance in it, so logic dictates that it would have to happen in FRF since its designed to work with both sets. No only that but since your chances of getting an enemy-fetch would be lower in FRF than otherwise it doesn't eat into 'Louie' set sales, it would hype up sales if anything.
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it looks like this thread was somewhat on the right track as far as what we know thus far (with the revealing of KTK fetches in FRF, pretty cool given how long ago this thread was :).
also, I had an idea that is interesting i think. What if they started off the block as wedges, then went on to the time travel story in FRF, and then finally due to the events in FRF the future was shifted in a way that made the last set Shards? It has been a long while since magic had shards as a theme. this could also mean more fixing necessary leading to zen fetches in the last set? just a theory.
just read someone elses thing explaining it a bit better, from a different thread tho,
Frankly, I'm finding that the inclusion of the allied fetches in the packs in a similar manner to the Shocks in DGM to be rather bizarre, and kind of an odd duck. It honestly doesn't make much sense to have only them available (As it's just much cleaner in many regards to have a full cycle printed in this manner). Which makes me think that they could play with the whole "time travel" theme by including something from the future. A kind of fun little thing.
Otherwise I have no idea why they would put the Fetches in FTR packs. It would just makes a really strange sort of inbalance.
maybe they could announce the full cycle at a later date to be more impactful? like after they reveal more spoilers that have to do with time travel for instance.
Now that they've announced they are putting the Khans/Onslaught fetches into the land slot in this set, this makes me again suspect they are putting the Zendikar fetch reprints into Fate Reforged, then they'll put into the lands slot the Fate Reforged fetches only (and not the Khans ones) in Dragons of Tarkir.
Finishing the cycle in the first two sets of the block makes sense to me due to the upcoming changes to Standard rotation, and how this will effectively split Dragons of Tarkir off from Khans and Fate in terms of standard later on.
It also means I still hope that M16 and Dragons of Tarkir will share a separate land cycle, preferably the fast-lands from Mirrodin getting completed. If they are clever with art and flavor text, they could even fit the Mirrodin ones into Dragons of Tarkir, since the names aren't overly Mirrodin specific, just metallic themed (and that could be treated as an appearance based trait, rather than actual presence of metal, or involve mines or ore veins or something), but M16 would be easier for the reprints, with Dragons easily able to handle the new ones, since Dragons/M16 is like a separate block of their own to some degree as far as the new standard goes, and I want the rest of the fast lands for Modern, and I think they'd fit easier than the dual-land man-lands (cycle completion for which will likely be saved for a return to Zendikar).
Either way, I think with them putting the Khans lands in the land slot of this set, that means the only way they'll have equal printings of the lands if they are completing them in block would be if they put the rest of the fetches in Fate Reforged, and put the ones in Fate Reforged into the land slot of Dragons of Tarkir.
I honestly think they'll do a different rare land cycle to begin with maybe fate lands:
Erupting Isle
land - Rare
When Erupting Isle enters the battlefield you lose 1 life and choose one -
Erupting Isle becomes a mountain.
Erupting Isle becomes an island.
Thats just like a fetchland in standard anyway, so why would they bother making it?
And like Sapientissimus points out it a potential memory issue flaw. Even adding something like put a flame counter on it=mountain put a tide counter on it=island doesnt really work either since the counters would have to look noticeably differnt. Its why they don't do things like Degavolver anymore because if more +1/+1 counters got added on later people could forget if they actually pay the cost and get to use/have the stated ability.
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Personally I would hope for enemy color fastlands in DTK. Aggro has been a major theme of KTK block so far and fastlands would be the perfect replacement for painlands once they rotate. Enemy filterlands in FRF would also be welcome as, similar to painlands, they produce colorless mana which works well with Morph, and their filtering abilities use hybrid mana. Not to mention, if the clans' central colors were to shift to the "proper" color of their wedge, the filterlands would perfectly represent that in the three pairs of mana they offer. CC represents KTK, CD represents FRF, and DD represents DTK.
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Unless the third set of Khans block is also multicolor heavy, I don't see this happening.
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Its a safe bet they will be in Louie.
so as RTR had 5 shocks as a large set, then 5 shocks in GTC, then various smaller chance to get on of the 10 shocks in DGM.
maybe Khans block will the same but with their version of DGM in the middle to show the time travel element.
so KTK 5 ons fetches, then a various smaller chance to get one of the 10 fetches in FRF, then 5 zen fetches in the third set.
This would actually make a lot of sense now that I think about it, but the time travel story and how that works needs to give us more information for this speculation to be more solid i think.
I guess a way to explain this is you're going back in time within the context and timeframe that Fate Reforged takes place such that the landscape is both from the future and as you time travel it changes to the past, all of this taking place within the story of Fate reforged.
Also @ Trifas, RTR may have been an entire multi block unlike KTK block. But KTK is 3 color instead of 2 color like RTR was, so it may be that you haven't accounted for the heavier mana requirements that 3 color needs even if it is for just 1 set out of the block.
For RtR/GTC/DGM, DGM had a full set of 21 possible land options (10 common/10 rare/1 Mythic) to take up the basic land slot. Those lands (except Maze's End) didn't count against the number of cards in the set, and they had the set symbol for the set they were originally printed in.
They can't really do the "land slot" thing for Fate Reforged, because there's no common cycle of lands. So the cards would have to count against the cards in the set. Meaning that 10 rares in a small set would be fetchlands, which would have them showing up far too often and severely cut into the rare space for that set.
Also, it would be really weird to have a set symbol for a set that wasn't out yet.
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Sorry to burst your dream bubble, but there is zero reason for doing it.
Dragon's Maze was special, needed fixing, and the shocks were a reasonable marketing move while fitting the reason for inclusion. Having the guildgates available for the lands slot allowed it.
Now, we are going to have a different large set (not small). If anything, we will get the enemy fetches there.
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Interesting, I didn't know there was actually a precedent for that. If they did end up doing that then I imagine they would not let you play the zen fetches in standard since it would make the price go up since they would be super rare to get and a lot of people would want to play them in their decks.
Why are you guys saying DGM was special because it needed fixing? like i said RTR block was a pair colored block. KTK is only one set out of the 3 but it is Tri-colored so that could mean it needs even more fixing or just as much as RTR block needed.
not to mention shocklands are better fixing than fetches are.
unless im missing something it sounds fairly plausible that they do something along the lines of what i mentioned.
I think, universally, everyone kind of hopes Rare Lands will get on the Land Sheet and not the normal sheet. Lands are great, but, there almost always somewhat unsatisfying to open in limited, and equally hard to pass because they're generally worth your price of admission.
They would have to point out, before Legality Day, that the Zend-Fetches wouldn't be street legal till Louie was. But that's a minor thing, and really not a bad thing since you pulled a Fetchland that isn't out yet you'll be happy.
so let's hope Louie fetches will have alive dragon on their art also
this could also explain why they did ONS fetches first, right? since they make less sense with wedge color sets, since they're better at enabling shards being allied color and all.
Since if they did it the other way around, Zen in KTK-> Zen+Ons in FRF. At that point in time you couldnt play the ONS ones in modern because it wouldn't have been a reprint of a legal card. Hence the ordering. Could also be other reasons but i guess this is a possibility.
Also if the set started out design-wise as a time travel set. MaRo stating that the ONS fetches were the first cards in KTK could be why they decided to include these first as part of their plan.
Yes the zen-fetches would be modern legal even of they showed up in FRF packs. Which I didn't even think off last time. And borrowing from that I really hope they print enemy version slowtap lands in KTK and then do land slot chances in FRF with allied slowtaps and enemy fetches foreshadowing their reprints coming in 'Louie'. That way the land slot still works similar to a boosters rarity. common=basic uncommon=slowtaps rare=fetches.
BAfter the lights go out on you, after your worthless life is through. I will remember how you scream...B
I think there's a good chance of it happening for the same reasons that they put all of the shocks in Dragon's Maze; there's a huge demand for them and putting a whole slew of them on the market will not only move packs, but it will be good for modern and legacy since it will make it much easier for newer players interested in the older formats to get the cards they need to make a viable deck.
Bottom line is that the huge demand of the fetches, partially caused by the recent increase in modern's popularity, pushed wizards to reprint them this block even though they were originally going to hold off for another year or so. I wouldn't be surprised at all if they did the same thing with this third set that they did with Dragon's Maze for the same reasons.
The set was already finalize by the time of Aaron Forsythe statement, so much the set would have been ready for printing at that point. No one expected the prices to spike like they did, sure people expected them to reach prices like that without a reprint, just not as fast a what happened. And we already knew development is two years ahead of us. The part people miss is that they could have already had them in a set file two years ago, which MaRo confirmed was what ended up being the case since allied fetches where the first five cards added to Khans.
You cant compare DGM to FRF like that. DGM was drafted with RTR & GTC and just added more elements for those two sets. Fate Reforged is being drafted with two other sets separately. 'Louie' isn't going to be drafted with Khans so theres no point in putting a special land chance in it, so logic dictates that it would have to happen in FRF since its designed to work with both sets. No only that but since your chances of getting an enemy-fetch would be lower in FRF than otherwise it doesn't eat into 'Louie' set sales, it would hype up sales if anything.
BAfter the lights go out on you, after your worthless life is through. I will remember how you scream...B
also, I had an idea that is interesting i think. What if they started off the block as wedges, then went on to the time travel story in FRF, and then finally due to the events in FRF the future was shifted in a way that made the last set Shards? It has been a long while since magic had shards as a theme. this could also mean more fixing necessary leading to zen fetches in the last set? just a theory.
just read someone elses thing explaining it a bit better, from a different thread tho,
maybe they could announce the full cycle at a later date to be more impactful? like after they reveal more spoilers that have to do with time travel for instance.
Finishing the cycle in the first two sets of the block makes sense to me due to the upcoming changes to Standard rotation, and how this will effectively split Dragons of Tarkir off from Khans and Fate in terms of standard later on.
It also means I still hope that M16 and Dragons of Tarkir will share a separate land cycle, preferably the fast-lands from Mirrodin getting completed. If they are clever with art and flavor text, they could even fit the Mirrodin ones into Dragons of Tarkir, since the names aren't overly Mirrodin specific, just metallic themed (and that could be treated as an appearance based trait, rather than actual presence of metal, or involve mines or ore veins or something), but M16 would be easier for the reprints, with Dragons easily able to handle the new ones, since Dragons/M16 is like a separate block of their own to some degree as far as the new standard goes, and I want the rest of the fast lands for Modern, and I think they'd fit easier than the dual-land man-lands (cycle completion for which will likely be saved for a return to Zendikar).
Either way, I think with them putting the Khans lands in the land slot of this set, that means the only way they'll have equal printings of the lands if they are completing them in block would be if they put the rest of the fetches in Fate Reforged, and put the ones in Fate Reforged into the land slot of Dragons of Tarkir.
Erupting Isle
land - Rare
When Erupting Isle enters the battlefield you lose 1 life and choose one -
WUBRGWBGURW
UBRGWURWBGU
BRGWUBGURWB
RGWUBRWBGUR
GWUBRGURWBG
Thats just like a fetchland in standard anyway, so why would they bother making it?
And like Sapientissimus points out it a potential memory issue flaw. Even adding something like put a flame counter on it=mountain put a tide counter on it=island doesnt really work either since the counters would have to look noticeably differnt. Its why they don't do things like Degavolver anymore because if more +1/+1 counters got added on later people could forget if they actually pay the cost and get to use/have the stated ability.
BAfter the lights go out on you, after your worthless life is through. I will remember how you scream...B
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.