So in the next khans expansion they are supposed to travel in time to help Ugin not dying because of Bolas OK, but... who can easy travel in time according to the history of magic?? Karn
Who knows where Karn is? Venser - Dead, Elspeth ~ Dead (by now), --> Koth <--
We got Koth in magma spray, why? because he is just about to appear?
Maybe i'm totally nuts, but I think that's why that FNM Magma Spray is Koth related, it's the only conection I could make.
So maybe in the next expansion we get a new Koth and new Karn or just Koth because: "Millennia ago three planeswalkers: Sorin Markov, Ugin and an unnamed Lithomancer decided to rid the Multiverse of these terrible creatures" How old is Koth??? Isn't Koth a Lithomancer?
Maybe i'm not more than a madman writing mad things
I wouldn't think too hard about promo art. It's made to look nice, it's not used to portray the current story at all, and historically hasn't really hinted at future sets, either. Koth is a geomancer, not a lithomancer. Granted the differences between the two are minor. However, Koth gained his spark during the Phyrexian invasion of Mirrodin and the Eldrazi were locked away long before that. I think the lithomancer is someone we haven't met yet.
I think it's likely that both Ugin and Bolas show up in this block, since they are both closely tied to Sarkhan as well as each other. I also think it's very likely that both Sorin (confirmed now in KTK) and the lithomancer are likely to appear, given their connection to Ugin. That would make a total of five walkers, which is the number we are confirmed to have in the block (2-1-2). I think Bolas will show up in the third set, irked about Ugin's new fate, and Ugin himself will be in the FRF. Really though, it's just as likely that Bolas shows up in FRF and Ugin in the third set in the altered present where he's still alive.
I think the story has great possibilities, and I'm pretty sure that Bolas will be the big bad for this set. Hopefully we'll get a new Uncharted Realms soon that reveals a bit more about the plot of KTK (so far we only know that Sarkhan has arrived on Tarkir under Ugins influence).
Yep, you're right, I couldn't remmember about the spark of Koth but I still think that magma spray art has something to do with koth reappearing soon (why koth and not chandra?)
Because it's magma spray.
Chandra is a pyromancer, and while she knows a few spells dealing with lava, that's not her specialty. Koth is a geomancer, so lava IS in his wheelhouse of abilities.
Guys what if Sarkhan IS Ugin? Or, to be more precise, he IS the big dragon skeleton he and Sorin find and ASSUME to be Ugin. Sarkhan can transform into a dragon when he pleases, so what if he goes back in time to save Ugin, sees Bolas, fights and loses, and allows Ugin to get away, dying in the process?
I hope it's some kind if crazy twist because it drives me nuts how Ugin is "dead" but will be a big deal in the set and Urza is "dead, dead & super never coming back dead". Get it together WotC, dead is dead or it ain't.
I am too to be honest. I am hoping that it will be more like Ugin takes him into the past, but he cannot impact it. While rewriting history is fantastic for a science fiction stand point, I don't know how I feel about it as far as fantasy is concerned, but we will find out.
My bet is we'll see Ugin in the third set once he's resurrected (or rather, never-killed-in-the-first-place). Meanwhile, FRF remains a good place to introduce Ramaz -- he's in wedge colors (GUR), so it would make sense to have him in FRF, which will presumably still share some themes with KTK, despite mostly not being wedge. (Whereas the third set will presumably not be wedge at all.) Furthermore, he's one of Bolas's agents, so Bolas himself doesn't have to make an appearance.
This does leave the question of who the second planeswalker in the third set will be; my guess would be that it's someone new entirely. It could be Bolas, but Bolas would make more sense in FRF; but like I said, Ramaz would make even more sense in FRF. (Well, except potentially for the question of how he went back in time. But, y'know, wedge colors.)
(Tangential, but there's one thing that's really bugging me about this whole storyline -- if Sarkhan goes back 1000 years and prevents Ugin from being killed... why would this only affect Tarkir? Would Ugin really just spend the whole 1000 years hanging around Tarkir, and not travel the multiverse affecting other things at all? Like possibly joining Sorin on his quest back in Zendikar block?)
My guess is Ugin is also an Elder Dragon, probably related some way to Nicol Bolas. They look too similar for that to be accidental, and we've never really been told when the war that killed most of them off took place (after all Chromium was running around Dominaria during the Ice Age).
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Sarkhan is really Ugin this whole time! I actually hope Wizards doesn't use that, and Ugin gets his own colorless planes walker card that can do stuff.
My guess is Ugin is also an Elder Dragon, probably related some way to Nicol Bolas. They look too similar for that to be accidental, and we've never really been told when the war that killed most of them off took place (after all Chromium was running around Dominaria during the Ice Age).
I have seen a timetable where the Dragon War took place around 25,000 years before the 'present' in Magic. I think Ugin looks like Bolas too much though as well. I smell a storyline loop coming.
My thoughts on Ugin showing up as a planeswalker card in Fate Reforged is high since he is all over the only artwork revealed for that set so far. Nicol Bolas and the Lithomancer are my guesses for set three's planeswalkers.
My guess is Ugin is also an Elder Dragon, probably related some way to Nicol Bolas. They look too similar for that to be accidental, and we've never really been told when the war that killed most of them off took place (after all Chromium was running around Dominaria during the Ice Age).
I have seen a timetable where the Dragon War took place around 25,000 years before the 'present' in Magic. I think Ugin looks like Bolas too much though as well. I smell a storyline loop coming.
My thoughts on Ugin showing up as a planeswalker card in Fate Reforged is high since he is all over the only artwork revealed for that set so far. Nicol Bolas and the Lithomancer are my guesses for set three's planeswalkers.
I'd love for the Lithomancer to show up in the 3rd set and have the story be like Nicol comes to kill Ugin again but finds 3 Oldwalkers(Ugin, Sorin, Lithomancer) and is like "NOPE! NOPE NOPE NOPE!" and leaves, leaving us with the "Avengers" to go take back Zendikar, possibly with Sorin riding Ugin like Falcor.
The "How many eyes" story was written about the time of Future Sight. It just references a couple of FS cards. It was written far before even the idea of Zendikar and the Eye of Ugin being a cave, etc., before the idea who Ugin really was was materialized. So the author just put a dragon who breathes an invisible flame (the grand total of all Ugin's defining characteristics at that point) there and called it a day.
No conclusions for the current story can be drawn from THAT story...
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destrarage said: So I was looking through future sight and I found the card ghostfire, which is a colourless sorcery with red mana in the casting cost. The flavour text also references Ugin. Care to explain?
1. Yep it is.
2. Witness of the Ages and Windstorm. Their flavortexts I feel tell what happened to Ugin.
3. If dragons are intelligent beings, which they tend to be, it would make sense they could develop their own language and alphabet.
4. When does the voice of Ugin stop and the madness begin?
5. Bolas knew Ghostfire was part to opening, however he wasn't aware it required a second key which was designed by the Lithomancer. As for how he knows, Bolas tends to delve into peoples minds in order to learn their secrets.
6. Ugin being dead could have been thousands of years ago and that Bolas didn't think that far into the future. Ugin's Nexus, his body, is a time anomaly.
7. Well Ghostfire has special properties: It is hard to see. Only a few people have ever learned to control ghostfire. It is believed that anyone able to control Ghostfire is able to transcend natural elements and alter their fundamental nature and existence. (Sources: Ghostfire. Planeswalkers Guide to Khans of Tarkir Part 1 [Jeskai])
8. Yep I agree. MaRo has stated that we will see changes to Morph in FRF and Dragons of Tarkir. Plus what better way to avoid being attacked at or redirectly damaged from burn spells when your planeswalker than to turn yourself into a facedown creature?
9. Possible, they both have a bit of a similar beard going on. Though it is hard to go off of art alone to determine what a card might be (*COUGH*The sphinx is not green*COUGH*)
10. They look like separate entities to me, but that might just be me.
11. In the same trailer he refers to Ugin as a ghost. Which the "never born at all" and "the other a ghost" are either taken literally or figuratively. Like he could be literal at "never being born at all" and figurative with "the other a ghost". (Also Sarkhan has an awesome voice)
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I hope it's some kind if crazy twist because it drives me nuts how Ugin is "dead" but will be a big deal in the set and Urza is "dead, dead & super never coming back dead". Get it together WotC, dead is dead or it ain't.
Urza died at the conclusion of is story line. For the gravity of the death to remain, it cannot be easily reversed.
Ugin is introduced into their story line as deceased. Ugin's moment of death is not final station of a narrative arc we know. Hence no equal narrative gravity.
Leaving Urza dead has always been a narrative choice. He was killed of with the purpose of ending the saga in question. Ugin (as fleshed out character rather than name-drop) was created with the revival in mind (most likely). There are worlds between one being revived over the other.
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I'd love for the Lithomancer to show up in the 3rd set and have the story be like Nicol comes to kill Ugin again but finds 3 Oldwalkers(Ugin, Sorin, Lithomancer) and is like "NOPE! NOPE NOPE NOPE!" and leaves, leaving us with the "Avengers" to go take back Zendikar, possibly with Sorin riding Ugin like Falcor.
As for that Lithomancer, she was already revealed and printed in Commander 2014: Nahiri, the Lithomancer. Well unless they reprinted her again, which I think is too soon or probably a different version since the commander mechanic is kindda off in this block.
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I disagree with you on the 2 of them in a small set being unlikely: Crux of Fate already shows both of them in its art, and I don't think we ever had a planeswalker in an artwork without its own card simultaneously(or previously) printed in the block.
Well, Dack Fayden appears in the art of Bred for the Hunt, but has no planeswalker card in the block. But as far as I know it has been the only time that happened, so I wouldn't call it a precedent.
I disagree with you on the 2 of them in a small set being unlikely: Crux of Fate already shows both of them in its art, and I don't think we ever had a planeswalker in an artwork without its own card simultaneously(or previously) printed in the block.
Furthermore with M16 having likely 5 walkers like all core sets, the new block structure wants DTK to have less walkers and Fate Reforged to have more.
FRF will have both Bolas and Ugin: that's a lock.
Incorrect. It's already been stated that the planeswalker distribution is 2:1:2. As with all sets large sets get 2 small sets get 1 with 5 total in the block.
I disagree with you on the 2 of them in a small set being unlikely: Crux of Fate already shows both of them in its art, and I don't think we ever had a planeswalker in an artwork without its own card simultaneously(or previously) printed in the block.
Furthermore with M16 having likely 5 walkers like all core sets, the new block structure wants DTK to have less walkers and Fate Reforged to have more.
FRF will have both Bolas and Ugin: that's a lock.
Incorrect. It's already been stated that the planeswalker distribution is 2:1:2. As with all sets large sets get 2 small sets get 1 with 5 total in the block.
Additionally, back when Shards came out, Nicol Bolas was visible on Cruel Ultimatum (in shadow form),
yet he wasn't given a card until the next set (Conflux).
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Did they confirm that the split is going to be 2-1-2 again? I'm guessing it is, but I can't remember if they explicitly said so. If so, I'm guessing we're going to get Ugin in FRF and Bolas in DTK, seeing as Ugin is featured all over the promotional material for FRF. Although I suppose it's possible that Bolas will get a card in DTk and then Ugin, alive and well in the present timeline, will be featured in the Dragons of Tarkir universe.
Did they confirm that the split is going to be 2-1-2 again? I'm guessing it is, but I can't remember if they explicitly said so. If so, I'm guessing we're going to get Ugin in FRF and Bolas in DTK, seeing as Ugin is featured all over the promotional material for FRF. Although I suppose it's possible that Bolas will get a card in DTK and then Ugin, alive and well in the present timeline, will be featured in the Dragons of Tarkir universe.
I think it all depends on how they set up a the third set. Fate reforged is supposed to play nice with both Khans of Tarkir and Dragons of Tarkir, but the two aren't necessarily supposed to play well with each other. Many speculate that Dragons will be either allied or shards instead of wedges. In either case Bolas would fit better in my opinion in a shard or allied set than the intermediary set, because I think any mana fixing for him would be in that set instead of the middle one.
Khans block is a three set block. The last core set isn't part of any block, stop lumping it and DTK together as a block.
On topic....
If perfectly fine for Bolas not to get a card in FRF or DTK. His only part of the story is him killing Ugin. Its not imperative that he get a card. This is about Ugins death and revival, making another card for Bolas takes away from that.
On the business side of things, planeswalkers are chase cards regardless of what they do and regardless of what other mythics in the set do. Putting two in a large set is fine since it has a bigger print run. Putting two in a small set guarantees two chase cards without players even knowing what the other mythics do. Business wise you already have a set seller just by having a single planeswalker in it, why waste a slot in a set when you don't need to?
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I wouldn't think too hard about promo art. It's made to look nice, it's not used to portray the current story at all, and historically hasn't really hinted at future sets, either. Koth is a geomancer, not a lithomancer. Granted the differences between the two are minor. However, Koth gained his spark during the Phyrexian invasion of Mirrodin and the Eldrazi were locked away long before that. I think the lithomancer is someone we haven't met yet.
I think it's likely that both Ugin and Bolas show up in this block, since they are both closely tied to Sarkhan as well as each other. I also think it's very likely that both Sorin (confirmed now in KTK) and the lithomancer are likely to appear, given their connection to Ugin. That would make a total of five walkers, which is the number we are confirmed to have in the block (2-1-2). I think Bolas will show up in the third set, irked about Ugin's new fate, and Ugin himself will be in the FRF. Really though, it's just as likely that Bolas shows up in FRF and Ugin in the third set in the altered present where he's still alive.
I think the story has great possibilities, and I'm pretty sure that Bolas will be the big bad for this set. Hopefully we'll get a new Uncharted Realms soon that reveals a bit more about the plot of KTK (so far we only know that Sarkhan has arrived on Tarkir under Ugins influence).
Chandra is a pyromancer, and while she knows a few spells dealing with lava, that's not her specialty. Koth is a geomancer, so lava IS in his wheelhouse of abilities.
I think we have a winner.
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This does leave the question of who the second planeswalker in the third set will be; my guess would be that it's someone new entirely. It could be Bolas, but Bolas would make more sense in FRF; but like I said, Ramaz would make even more sense in FRF. (Well, except potentially for the question of how he went back in time. But, y'know, wedge colors.)
(Tangential, but there's one thing that's really bugging me about this whole storyline -- if Sarkhan goes back 1000 years and prevents Ugin from being killed... why would this only affect Tarkir? Would Ugin really just spend the whole 1000 years hanging around Tarkir, and not travel the multiverse affecting other things at all? Like possibly joining Sorin on his quest back in Zendikar block?)
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I have seen a timetable where the Dragon War took place around 25,000 years before the 'present' in Magic. I think Ugin looks like Bolas too much though as well. I smell a storyline loop coming.
My thoughts on Ugin showing up as a planeswalker card in Fate Reforged is high since he is all over the only artwork revealed for that set so far. Nicol Bolas and the Lithomancer are my guesses for set three's planeswalkers.
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The "How many eyes" story was written about the time of Future Sight. It just references a couple of FS cards. It was written far before even the idea of Zendikar and the Eye of Ugin being a cave, etc., before the idea who Ugin really was was materialized. So the author just put a dragon who breathes an invisible flame (the grand total of all Ugin's defining characteristics at that point) there and called it a day.
No conclusions for the current story can be drawn from THAT story...
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2. Witness of the Ages and Windstorm. Their flavortexts I feel tell what happened to Ugin.
3. If dragons are intelligent beings, which they tend to be, it would make sense they could develop their own language and alphabet.
4. When does the voice of Ugin stop and the madness begin?
5. Bolas knew Ghostfire was part to opening, however he wasn't aware it required a second key which was designed by the Lithomancer. As for how he knows, Bolas tends to delve into peoples minds in order to learn their secrets.
6. Ugin being dead could have been thousands of years ago and that Bolas didn't think that far into the future. Ugin's Nexus, his body, is a time anomaly.
7. Well Ghostfire has special properties: It is hard to see. Only a few people have ever learned to control ghostfire. It is believed that anyone able to control Ghostfire is able to transcend natural elements and alter their fundamental nature and existence. (Sources: Ghostfire. Planeswalkers Guide to Khans of Tarkir Part 1 [Jeskai])
8. Yep I agree. MaRo has stated that we will see changes to Morph in FRF and Dragons of Tarkir. Plus what better way to avoid being attacked at or redirectly damaged from burn spells when your planeswalker than to turn yourself into a facedown creature?
9. Possible, they both have a bit of a similar beard going on. Though it is hard to go off of art alone to determine what a card might be (*COUGH*The sphinx is not green*COUGH*)
10. They look like separate entities to me, but that might just be me.
11. In the same trailer he refers to Ugin as a ghost. Which the "never born at all" and "the other a ghost" are either taken literally or figuratively. Like he could be literal at "never being born at all" and figurative with "the other a ghost". (Also Sarkhan has an awesome voice)
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Urza died at the conclusion of is story line. For the gravity of the death to remain, it cannot be easily reversed.
Ugin is introduced into their story line as deceased. Ugin's moment of death is not final station of a narrative arc we know. Hence no equal narrative gravity.
Leaving Urza dead has always been a narrative choice. He was killed of with the purpose of ending the saga in question. Ugin (as fleshed out character rather than name-drop) was created with the revival in mind (most likely). There are worlds between one being revived over the other.
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As for that Lithomancer, she was already revealed and printed in Commander 2014: Nahiri, the Lithomancer. Well unless they reprinted her again, which I think is too soon or probably a different version since the commander mechanic is kindda off in this block.
Well, Dack Fayden appears in the art of Bred for the Hunt, but has no planeswalker card in the block. But as far as I know it has been the only time that happened, so I wouldn't call it a precedent.
Incorrect. It's already been stated that the planeswalker distribution is 2:1:2. As with all sets large sets get 2 small sets get 1 with 5 total in the block.
Additionally, back when Shards came out, Nicol Bolas was visible on Cruel Ultimatum (in shadow form),
yet he wasn't given a card until the next set (Conflux).
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I think it all depends on how they set up a the third set. Fate reforged is supposed to play nice with both Khans of Tarkir and Dragons of Tarkir, but the two aren't necessarily supposed to play well with each other. Many speculate that Dragons will be either allied or shards instead of wedges. In either case Bolas would fit better in my opinion in a shard or allied set than the intermediary set, because I think any mana fixing for him would be in that set instead of the middle one.
Bolas coming to "new tarkir" to once again try to kill the spirit dragon.
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On topic....
If perfectly fine for Bolas not to get a card in FRF or DTK. His only part of the story is him killing Ugin. Its not imperative that he get a card. This is about Ugins death and revival, making another card for Bolas takes away from that.
On the business side of things, planeswalkers are chase cards regardless of what they do and regardless of what other mythics in the set do. Putting two in a large set is fine since it has a bigger print run. Putting two in a small set guarantees two chase cards without players even knowing what the other mythics do. Business wise you already have a set seller just by having a single planeswalker in it, why waste a slot in a set when you don't need to?
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