Explain me how it is a terrible idea... I fail to see how it is different from doing any creature 1/1 for 1 with ability when they are simply strictly better Eager Cadet
Explain me how it is a terrible idea... I fail to see how it is different from doing any creature 1/1 for 1 with ability when they are simply strictly better Eager Cadet
Explain me how it is a terrible idea... I fail to see how it is different from doing any creature 1/1 for 1 with ability when they are simply strictly better Eager Cadet
Its one of the more important "rules of making lands" that R&D go by. I think they were all listed in a "Making Magic" article. One rule is that no land should be strictly better than a basic land, and another is that "all lands should tap for mana". It could be that they feel that making it legendary is enough of a drawback, after all they have made Flagstones of Trokair and Eiganjo Castle, but simply being a non-basic land is not enough in this discussion; as has been stated explicitly by R&D (I think in that same MM article).
With regards to perfect mana bases in Standard: I think the issue is the small card pool. If you have perfect mana bases it would be too easy to build a generic deck with all the best cards, and this archetype would be too strong for more diverse archetypes to exist. This is less of a problem in Modern and Legacy, where the card pools are so large that the number of possible strategies are much less limited.
As for what the missing lands are, I would be surprised if they are the Zendikar fetchlands, since I would have expected them to be spoiled together with the ones we have already seen. I am guessing we will get a cycle of five common fixers to help limited. They could be the Panoramas, but I hope they are not. Mark Rosewater has said that the limited fixing available in Shards of Alara limited was not good enough and that they have learned their lesson from that experience. I'm hoping that means that they are swapping the Panoramas with a different cycle of common fixers. If we're suggesting other possible reprints, then why not the vivids?
I guess that takes up all my space, but I would really like for there to be more fetchable non-basics. It could be a good way to make people willing to run utility lands in an wedge-based environments where otherwise there would be little room for lands that compromised the mana-fixing. Thanks to the fetches, running a utility-land with a basic land type as a singleton becomes a decent proposition.
I can see them doing a cycle of Legend Land - (Basic Type here) but the theorized cards are too strong. We'd probably be looking for something weaker than the INN cycle of Utility lands all told, as the upside is being colorful mana (and it'd probably be uncommon level power).
I'm guessing there will be a common land cycle (it's pretty much needed) but it doesn't have to be Panoramas, I'm not seeing morphlands at common for fixing help so I'm not sure what they will do. I would say any rare level power cards are off the table, so no Manlands.
For the remaining lands I can foresee a completed Murmuring Bosk cycle, a fetchable Vivid Cycle, and/or some utility lands a la Innistrad. Seeing as bosk would a stretch flavor wise I could see something printed as Land-Forest; T: add W or B, with some etb drawback and/or doesn't untap on your next untap when tapped for off colored. Vivid's might be too strong. And utility lands could make fixing in Khans limited too difficult.
Considering the sheer number of cards capable on untapping lands. Including at least one that is currently in standard, it's not really that much of a drawback. Particularly in older formats. Heck, Twiddle can untap it easy.
I honestly don't feel like having an argument anymore if you legitimately think that paying a mana and a card to untap a land makes up for the tempo loss of it entering play tapped.
Still pretty damn irrelevant. A land with all basic land types is strictly to good. It is to good for standard due to powerlevel issues. It is to good for modern because of power level issues and fetches. And it is to good for Legacy/Vintage because it is *very* easy to untap. But the primary issue is not that it is a five color land, but rather that it has *all five basic land types*, making it extremely easy to fetch. It can be fetched by no less than 15 different fetch lands that are currently legal in Vintage/Legacy, and ten in Modern (once KTK becomes legal). That alone makes it two and a half times better than the original dual lands, which are at the upper end of how good lands can get without being broken.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
It's about time for the reserved list to die, for the sake of Vintage and Legacy (And Commander).
Modern: UUUBlue Man Group
Legacy: UWBMiracles
Edh: UUUThassa Control WWWHokori Stax GGGJolrael, Empress of Land Stompy BBBGriselbrand French List RBGShattergang(Super Villians) RWGHazezon Flicker UBRMarchesa Aggro URGMaelstom Wanderer (Maelstorm)
Considering the sheer number of cards capable on untapping lands. Including at least one that is currently in standard, it's not really that much of a drawback. Particularly in older formats. Heck, Twiddle can untap it easy.
I honestly don't feel like having an argument anymore if you legitimately think that paying a mana and a card to untap a land makes up for the tempo loss of it entering play tapped.
Still pretty damn irrelevant. A land with all basic land types is strictly to good. It is to good for standard due to powerlevel issues. It is to good for modern because of power level issues and fetches. And it is to good for Legacy/Vintage because it is *very* easy to untap. But the primary issue is not that it is a five color land, but rather that it has *all five basic land types*, making it extremely easy to fetch. It can be fetched by no less than 15 different fetch lands that are currently legal in Vintage/Legacy, and ten in Modern (once KTK becomes legal). That alone makes it two and a half times better than the original dual lands, which are at the upper end of how good lands can get without being broken.
I think an interesting exercise when wondering "could they print that" is to look at what options already exist. For lands that tap for any colour of mana, the drawbacks are fairly substantial. Either life every use (City of Brass, Mana confluence), limited number of uses (Kendo Ice Bridge, Gemstone Mine) or some other rather hefty drawback.
In the first instance, let's imagine a rainbow tapland with no basic landtypes. Even that is overpowered compared to what is available today. Adding the omni-fetchability pushes it even further out of the realm of probables, I would guess.
Of course, they break their own precedent all the time, but it is rarely done in such massive leaps in power.
Another issue is that it is very likely not enough space to put "Land - Plains Island Swamp Forest Mountain" on the typeline.
I really hope they make fetachable duals. The fetches aren't that great in Standard without them.
Except Wotc has said they dont want fetches and duals in the Standard environment together.
I believe you, but I am curious about when they said that.
They've said at least once that Shocks plus M10 checklands were too "perfect" of mana bases. As far as I'm concerned, even if that's "too perfect" for Standard it's still not as powerful as fetch + fetchable dual.
They were also upset when people were running Vivid Grove+others and Reflecting Pool in standard since that allowed 5 color decks to feasibly cast stuff like Cryptic Command and Cloudthresher in the same 5 color deck. They don't want to trivialize manabases in standard, in formats like modern at least there are some punishers if people want to play with them for the I'm going to run 5 colors without a problem decks like Blood Moon.
Maybe some legendary lands related to the clans that would work nicely with the fetchs. Something like this.
Sultai Land
Legendary Land - Swamp
(T: Add B to your mana pool.)
~ comes into play tapped BT: Add UG to your mana pool.
They still seem diferent enough from the tri-lands
This would be actually a good idea.
I dont think the missing lands will have basic land types because they are scared of the fetchland power in standard.
Also, we need more fixing in common slots for limited, so 5 lands should be that
All in all, it looks like we will have 2 cycles of lands, so manlands doesnt seem probable
Considering the sheer number of cards capable on untapping lands. Including at least one that is currently in standard, it's not really that much of a drawback. Particularly in older formats. Heck, Twiddle can untap it easy.
I honestly don't feel like having an argument anymore if you legitimately think that paying a mana and a card to untap a land makes up for the tempo loss of it entering play tapped.
Still pretty damn irrelevant. A land with all basic land types is strictly to good. It is to good for standard due to powerlevel issues. It is to good for modern because of power level issues and fetches. And it is to good for Legacy/Vintage because it is *very* easy to untap. But the primary issue is not that it is a five color land, but rather that it has *all five basic land types*, making it extremely easy to fetch. It can be fetched by no less than 15 different fetch lands that are currently legal in Vintage/Legacy, and ten in Modern (once KTK becomes legal). That alone makes it two and a half times better than the original dual lands, which are at the upper end of how good lands can get without being broken.
I think an interesting exercise when wondering "could they print that" is to look at what options already exist. For lands that tap for any colour of mana, the drawbacks are fairly substantial. Either life every use (City of Brass, Mana confluence), limited number of uses (Kendo Ice Bridge, Gemstone Mine) or some other rather hefty drawback.
In the first instance, let's imagine a rainbow tapland with no basic landtypes. Even that is overpowered compared to what is available today. Adding the omni-fetchability pushes it even further out of the realm of probables, I would guess.
Of course, they break their own precedent all the time, but it is rarely done in such massive leaps in power.
Another issue is that it is very likely not enough space to put "Land - Plains Island Swamp Forest Mountain" on the typeline.
Exactly, a five color land with only a minor drawback (comes into play tapped) and all basic land types is to damn good.
Maybe some legendary lands related to the clans that would work nicely with the fetchs. Something like this.
Sultai Land
Legendary Land - Swamp
(T: Add B to your mana pool.)
~ comes into play tapped BT: Add UG to your mana pool.
They still seem diferent enough from the tri-lands
This would be actually a good idea.
I dont think the missing lands will have basic land types because they are scared of the fetchland power in standard.
Also, we need more fixing in common slots for limited, so 5 lands should be that
All in all, it looks like we will have 2 cycles of lands, so manlands doesnt seem probable
We will most likely have either a five land cycle or one or two mana fixing lands at common. WotC want mana fixing in KTK to be a lot easier than it was in Alara. That requires mana fixing at both common, uncommon, and rare. I would not be surprised to see a five color land at rare as well, either in KTK or Fate Reforged.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
It's about time for the reserved list to die, for the sake of Vintage and Legacy (And Commander).
enemy fastlands? like seachrome coast? that would be nice too, but I think the 9 unknown ones will be something like common mana fixing just with sealed in mind
I'm really expecting enemy fastlands to come up the next time we see New Phyrexia on the move. First off, their whole deal is domination, and I'm pretty sure at least one card mentioned that Mirrodin was just their first target (plus what ever happened to the phyrexian-infested world Elspeth came from?). Just saying, we WILL see them again, and it would just be way more thematic this way than two independant cycles of lands with the same themes. Man-lands, guild halls, or panoramas seem likely.
I really hope for panoramas actually, I loved them. The fact that they tapped for colorless instead of instant use is what has me sold. I could see a cycle and then a handful of general lands though.
I wouldn't be surprised if the lands named in this article (Kheru Temple, Ukud Necropolis, Qarsi Palace, The Gudul, The Gurmag Swamps, The Marang River Fortress, The Sagu, Molderfang Falls, & Crocodile Pits) end up being 9/10 of the lands we don't know so far btw.
Well they have to be uncommon there's no room for there to be another rare set. So i think legendary lands are out assuming Panoramas that means 10 of the twenty lands will get you a essentially a basic land. five more will give you one of any of your clan colours I would think that what makes the most sense is some form of filter land. Unknown shores was common in Theros (after there was an uncommon version in M14 i guess they realised it wasn't that powerful.)
I could see
Temur land
uncommon
Tap for 1
2 and tap add 3 mana in any combination of GUR to your manapool. or maybe 2 and tap to add 2 mana in any combination of GUR to your manapool
There are a lot of wedge cards in this set in the 57 or Gold cards it looks like between 30 and 35 are tri colour including 5 at common I think that these cards would be designed to make it easier to play those cards for limited
-All basic land types land: This is a bit insane with domain. Turn 2 Tribal Flames for 5 damage. Also, very good with other non-domain cards, even with ETB tapped.
-Full art lands: Zendikar had a strong land theme, so full art basic lands had a greater reason to exist. But we'll surely get them soon or later.
-Missing lands: a common color fixer cycle is pretty safe to assume. I don't see a reason for the panoroamas, since we already have fetchlands. Maybe somthing like the Vivid Grove cycle for Lorwyn (always add 1 color, sometimes add 5 color) or the "tri" lands from Ivasion like Ancient Spring (taps for one mana, sacs for two manas of other color)
For the other five I'd love to see utility lands or maybe manlands. Could not be a cycle too. A rare or mythic rare land. A "taps for any color" common land like Unknown Shores and maybe some utility lands with colorless activation).
-Enemy Fetches: Almost impossible to be in KTK. Could be on the last set, but I can see them holding their reprints for MM2 or a Return to Zendikar block.
Edit: Also, I love the idea of fetchable non-basic lands like the Shadowmoor uncommons (I guess Murmuring Bosk is too strong to play along Fetchlands)
Also, I love the idea of fetchable non-basic lands like the Shadowmoor uncommons (I guess Murmuring Bosk is too strong to play along Fetchlands)
A Murmuring Bosk cycle would be amazing. Even if they do enter tapped, and deal you a damage when tapping for an alternate mana, providing 3 colour fixing alongside fetches is most likely not going to happen >_>
Its one of the more important "rules of making lands" that R&D go by. I think they were all listed in a "Making Magic" article. One rule is that no land should be strictly better than a basic land, and another is that "all lands should tap for mana". It could be that they feel that making it legendary is enough of a drawback, after all they have made Flagstones of Trokair and Eiganjo Castle, but simply being a non-basic land is not enough in this discussion; as has been stated explicitly by R&D (I think in that same MM article).
With regards to perfect mana bases in Standard: I think the issue is the small card pool. If you have perfect mana bases it would be too easy to build a generic deck with all the best cards, and this archetype would be too strong for more diverse archetypes to exist. This is less of a problem in Modern and Legacy, where the card pools are so large that the number of possible strategies are much less limited.
As for what the missing lands are, I would be surprised if they are the Zendikar fetchlands, since I would have expected them to be spoiled together with the ones we have already seen. I am guessing we will get a cycle of five common fixers to help limited. They could be the Panoramas, but I hope they are not. Mark Rosewater has said that the limited fixing available in Shards of Alara limited was not good enough and that they have learned their lesson from that experience. I'm hoping that means that they are swapping the Panoramas with a different cycle of common fixers. If we're suggesting other possible reprints, then why not the vivids?
Of the remaining five, I guess there will be more common fixing (Unknown Shores, Terramorphic Expanse) some uncommon utility lands (e.g.Rogue's Passage), and perhaps a rare rainbow-land (Ancient Ziggurat, Mana Confluence).
I guess that takes up all my space, but I would really like for there to be more fetchable non-basics. It could be a good way to make people willing to run utility lands in an wedge-based environments where otherwise there would be little room for lands that compromised the mana-fixing. Thanks to the fetches, running a utility-land with a basic land type as a singleton becomes a decent proposition.
Cubetutor Peasant'ish-Funbox
Project: Khans of Tarkir Cube (cubetutor)
I'm guessing there will be a common land cycle (it's pretty much needed) but it doesn't have to be Panoramas, I'm not seeing morphlands at common for fixing help so I'm not sure what they will do. I would say any rare level power cards are off the table, so no Manlands.
Still pretty damn irrelevant. A land with all basic land types is strictly to good. It is to good for standard due to powerlevel issues. It is to good for modern because of power level issues and fetches. And it is to good for Legacy/Vintage because it is *very* easy to untap. But the primary issue is not that it is a five color land, but rather that it has *all five basic land types*, making it extremely easy to fetch. It can be fetched by no less than 15 different fetch lands that are currently legal in Vintage/Legacy, and ten in Modern (once KTK becomes legal). That alone makes it two and a half times better than the original dual lands, which are at the upper end of how good lands can get without being broken.
---
Numquam evolutioni obstes. Solum conculceris.
Pascite draconem, evolvite aut morimini.
Draft it Here!
UUUBlue Man Group
Legacy:
UWBMiracles
Edh:
UUUThassa Control
WWWHokori Stax
GGGJolrael, Empress of Land Stompy
BBBGriselbrand French List
RBGShattergang(Super Villians)
RWGHazezon Flicker
UBRMarchesa Aggro
URGMaelstom Wanderer (Maelstorm)
I think an interesting exercise when wondering "could they print that" is to look at what options already exist. For lands that tap for any colour of mana, the drawbacks are fairly substantial. Either life every use (City of Brass, Mana confluence), limited number of uses (Kendo Ice Bridge, Gemstone Mine) or some other rather hefty drawback.
In the first instance, let's imagine a rainbow tapland with no basic landtypes. Even that is overpowered compared to what is available today. Adding the omni-fetchability pushes it even further out of the realm of probables, I would guess.
Of course, they break their own precedent all the time, but it is rarely done in such massive leaps in power.
Another issue is that it is very likely not enough space to put "Land - Plains Island Swamp Forest Mountain" on the typeline.
I guess that the idea that those would have to be rare, and that the fetches are our rare cycle for this block.
Cubetutor Peasant'ish-Funbox
Project: Khans of Tarkir Cube (cubetutor)
They were also upset when people were running Vivid Grove+others and Reflecting Pool in standard since that allowed 5 color decks to feasibly cast stuff like Cryptic Command and Cloudthresher in the same 5 color deck. They don't want to trivialize manabases in standard, in formats like modern at least there are some punishers if people want to play with them for the I'm going to run 5 colors without a problem decks like Blood Moon.
Feel free to bid on my cards here!
This would be actually a good idea.
I dont think the missing lands will have basic land types because they are scared of the fetchland power in standard.
Also, we need more fixing in common slots for limited, so 5 lands should be that
All in all, it looks like we will have 2 cycles of lands, so manlands doesnt seem probable
Exactly, a five color land with only a minor drawback (comes into play tapped) and all basic land types is to damn good.
We will most likely have either a five land cycle or one or two mana fixing lands at common. WotC want mana fixing in KTK to be a lot easier than it was in Alara. That requires mana fixing at both common, uncommon, and rare. I would not be surprised to see a five color land at rare as well, either in KTK or Fate Reforged.
---
Numquam evolutioni obstes. Solum conculceris.
Pascite draconem, evolvite aut morimini.
I'm really expecting enemy fastlands to come up the next time we see New Phyrexia on the move. First off, their whole deal is domination, and I'm pretty sure at least one card mentioned that Mirrodin was just their first target (plus what ever happened to the phyrexian-infested world Elspeth came from?). Just saying, we WILL see them again, and it would just be way more thematic this way than two independant cycles of lands with the same themes. Man-lands, guild halls, or panoramas seem likely.
I really hope for panoramas actually, I loved them. The fact that they tapped for colorless instead of instant use is what has me sold. I could see a cycle and then a handful of general lands though.
I could see
Temur land
uncommon
Tap for 1
2 and tap add 3 mana in any combination of GUR to your manapool. or maybe 2 and tap to add 2 mana in any combination of GUR to your manapool
There are a lot of wedge cards in this set in the 57 or Gold cards it looks like between 30 and 35 are tri colour including 5 at common I think that these cards would be designed to make it easier to play those cards for limited
-Full art lands: Zendikar had a strong land theme, so full art basic lands had a greater reason to exist. But we'll surely get them soon or later.
-Missing lands: a common color fixer cycle is pretty safe to assume. I don't see a reason for the panoroamas, since we already have fetchlands. Maybe somthing like the Vivid Grove cycle for Lorwyn (always add 1 color, sometimes add 5 color) or the "tri" lands from Ivasion like Ancient Spring (taps for one mana, sacs for two manas of other color)
For the other five I'd love to see utility lands or maybe manlands. Could not be a cycle too. A rare or mythic rare land. A "taps for any color" common land like Unknown Shores and maybe some utility lands with colorless activation).
-Enemy Fetches: Almost impossible to be in KTK. Could be on the last set, but I can see them holding their reprints for MM2 or a Return to Zendikar block.
Edit: Also, I love the idea of fetchable non-basic lands like the Shadowmoor uncommons (I guess Murmuring Bosk is too strong to play along Fetchlands)
Commander: WUBRG Superfriends, GW Rhys Tokens, WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon
Kitchen Table (now that's real Magic): WUBRG Domain, GU Biovisionary, UB Korlash Grandeur, UW Merfolk Mill
Dunes of Zairo
SHANDALAR
Innistrad - The Darkest Night
~THE RAVNICAN CONSORTIUM~
A Community Set
Commander: Allies & Adversaries
A Murmuring Bosk cycle would be amazing. Even if they do enter tapped, and deal you a damage when tapping for an alternate mana, providing 3 colour fixing alongside fetches is most likely not going to happen >_>
230 - Bloodstained Mire
231 - (Celestial Colonnade)
232 - (Creeping Tar pit)
233 - Flooded Strand
234 - Frontier Bivouac
235 - (Lavaclaw Reaches)
236 - Mystic Monastery
237 - Nomad Outpost
238 - Opulent Palace
239 - Polluted Delta
240 - (Raging Ravine)
241 - Sandsteppe Citadel
242 - (Stirring Wildwood)
243 - (Vivid Crag)
244 - (Vivid Creek)
245 - (Vivid Grove)
246 - (Vivid Marsh)
247 - (Vivid Meadow)
248 - Windswept Heath
249 - Wooded Foothills
90% chance I am wrong, but if the shoe fits...