I definitely see an increase in the amount of players playing standard at my lgs. HOWEVER, they are all people in their mid to late 20s with jobs to play decks that average around $2-300. Every time rotation happens they moan about it and then continue to buy more cards. Sad to say the average joe that plays fun decks cant even compete and would go 0-4 or maybe 1-3 at best.
As a limited only player myself, I'm glad there is an increase in the amount of people willing to spend on standard. It lets me sell some of the more expensive rares at better than buy prices from stores.
Standard won't die anytime soon. Let's worry about Modern.
To be fair you're comparing a mono-colored deck to a tri color there (and one of the most expensive outside of the GBx core as well). Compare Black Devotion to some powerful contenders like Affinity, Twin, or Pod which will retain their value forever*, take the manabases out (which make at least 3/4 of the price in the latter) or alternatively try to compare INN-RAV standard decks which had full shock-check sets and you'll see the diference.
*read: as long as their key pieces aren't banned or super powerful hate isn't printed (which hasn't stopped affinity at all, lol)
To be honest I'm comparing prices between the here and now of standard and modern. BTW "taking the manabases out" makes no sense at all. You play with the manabases, not without, and you need em to play.
Switching to top16s and summing prices you can get a fair comparison of prices between Modern and Standard as top16 clearly depict the range of competitive decks:
Taking manabases out does make sense though. Manabases are, always have been and always will be rare, expensive, and about the same power level. I'm talking about the other cards the deck plays. Of course your manabase is going to be at least 50% rare if you don't play monocolor (and even then, look at mono black running temples and mutas). The other cards, though, have been bumping up in rarity slowly, to the point that now even the removal used is rare (Hero's Downfall, Dreadbore before it, Detention Sphere, Abrupt Decay, etc) where previously it was common / uncommon due to Limited. Even without accounting the removal, the creatures have been ridiculous, as now the decks run all the rares and mythic rares on color in the pool because no better cards are printed at lower rarities.
Standard isn't dying. Most local stores are seeing a higher influx of players, tournaments are growing larger than ever, Wizards is selling more product than before, etc.
So you can make these ranting arguments complaining about entry cost to formats all you want, but the game is growing and there is no indication that Standard is a dying format - if anything there is strong evidence to the contrary.
And since that evidence is so obvious, it's safe to assume you would make a post in the face of logical assessment with the intent to complain - i.e. 'rant'.
Except for the fact that with the release of Theros, as other people have already said in this same thread, some of us have noticed a significant drop in Standard attendance (I've noticed it in 3 different LGS).
I don't know how you can claim that evidence is "so obvious" since Wizards doesn't give out statistics on players attendance to events (besides the major ones). Probably you're basing this off anecdotal evidence because your LGS has stayed more or less the same. Lastly, since I play Legacy, Modern and Standard I have little trouble with entry costs, so then again, I fail to see the anger or violence that qualify a rant. Formally complaining and posting my point of view backed up by logical reasons =/= ranting. You can keep with the ad hominem and personal attacks based on assumptions, though it won't make you right.
Cards like Lightning Bolt, Ponder, and even Remand (!) are considered too powerful for today standards (no pun intended) which I consider ridiculous.
could you go into why you find it 'ridiculous'? Cards have been insta banned in modern for being to powerful after they left standard. There would be little to no diversity in standard if staples were reprinted. Look at how many decks are packing thoughseize. Most decks have to play it or be ready to handle it.
Without many 'staples', standard is about brews. We currently have: mono black, mono white, mono green, BW control, BW midrange, BW human aggressive, Mono Blue, U/W control/tempo, RW aggro, Mono Red burn, BG midrange, RW creatures, Jund midrange, Esper, Junk graveyard, Junk midrange, Naya aggro, naya control, and varies GW decks.
I see what you are saying with standard going out of popularity. But many play it as some decks have a low cost to entry and one can brew.
Out of those cards only Ponder is banned in Modern though, and only Mental Misstep has been insta-banned. Although Bolt could warp a format because it kills creatures with toughness 3 or less (which I'm okay with, we had Bolt for two years in standard some time ago and nobody complained about that), I fail to see why Ponder, Remand or other staples would break Standard in half, let alone be run in all decks like Thoughseize does.
SFM and JTMS? I understand not insta banned and were used in modern (SFM being in an event deck and allowed in tournaments even after the banning - good read), power is still power and warped standard (either have it or have cards [many cards] to counter it in every deck).
Standard goes up and down, but overall Magic participation is up. Saying Standard is dying sounds to me like saying that the Earth is cooling because we had a bad winter.
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Old enough to know better, much too young to care.
I don't think that Standard is dying out... But prices were a lot cheaper back then, and what you said about rares and good uncommons like Kitchen Finks is true. I played 5CC/Cruel Control back then and it was dirty cheap (you could even get the Cryptic Commands and Wrath of God for free as rewards). I play Esper now, anything but the Doom Blade/Ultimate Price/Charm package and Dissolve is rare!
I believe WoTC's new policy is to make sure that every color can enjoy the exciting gameplay mechanic of making undercosted dudes and then turning them sideways. Clearly the future of magic.
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I don't think that Standard is dying out... But prices were a lot cheaper back then, and what you said about rares and good uncommons like Kitchen Finks is true. I played 5CC/Cruel Control back then and it was dirty cheap (you could even get the Cryptic Commands and Wrath of God for free as rewards). I play Esper now, anything but the Doom Blade/Ultimate Price/Charm package and Dissolve is rare!
agree - prices are on the rise. Last season, Jund was a $1k+ dollar deck.... Even UW control was up there. Also, last season (and a little bit of this season) you could use older versions of shock/check lands. I understand temples are 'cheap' but mana bases are a majority of the cost.
SFM and JTMS? I understand not insta banned and were used in modern (SFM being in an event deck and allowed in tournaments even after the banning - good read), power is still power and warped standard (either have it or have cards [many cards] to counter it in every deck).
That's not the point of the argument though. Those cards are obviously broken in half. I was talking about back then when your deck was mostly commons and uncommons and then some rare bombs, like the Jund deck I listed above.
Standard goes up and down, but overall Magic participation is up. Saying Standard is dying sounds to me like saying that the Earth is cooling because we had a bad winter.
I didn't say that Standard is dying, I said that it will die eventually (read: not in the near future) if they keep down the Theros hill.
I don't think that Standard is dying out... But prices were a lot cheaper back then, and what you said about rares and good uncommons like Kitchen Finks is true. I played 5CC/Cruel Control back then and it was dirty cheap (you could even get the Cryptic Commands and Wrath of God for free as rewards). I play Esper now, anything but the Doom Blade/Ultimate Price/Charm package and Dissolve is rare!
I don't think that Standard is dying out... But prices were a lot cheaper back then, and what you said about rares and good uncommons like Kitchen Finks is true. I played 5CC/Cruel Control back then and it was dirty cheap (you could even get the Cryptic Commands and Wrath of God for free as rewards). I play Esper now, anything but the Doom Blade/Ultimate Price/Charm package and Dissolve is rare!
This guy gets it.
I understand. Now we have more mythic rares that are highly sought after due to power and most decks will just run rares. Basically goodstuff.dec. Even though the price of entry is increasing, it is not dying out. There are many decks that are budget. However, you can Pay-to-Win.
Back in my day a loaf of bread was three cents. And for five cents, you could get two loaves, a lollipop, and a whoopin!
Of course as time goes on the cards are going to get more expensive. That's inflation. New cards are going to get more and more expensive, especially as the fanbase grows and there is even more demand for those cards. That's why i would thank you all to stay away from legacy.
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Whats the big deal about black lotus you ask? Well you see, there is no big deal about it. It IS the big deal.
Back in my day a loaf of bread was three cents. And for five cents, you could get two loaves, a lollipop, and a whoopin!
Of course as time goes on the cards are going to get more expensive. That's inflation. New cards are going to get more and more expensive, especially as the fanbase grows and there is even more demand for those cards. That's why i would thank you all to stay away from legacy.
Like I said, I already play Legacy. I'm not complaining about prices. I'm complaining about card quality. Path to Exile is more expensive than Hero's Downfall because Path is ten times better. Path is uncommon and Downfall isn't because Path is from an age where card quality was a lot better than it is now. Cards are being pushed to the upper rarities as a money strategy from wizards, and now all the juice of a set is on the Rare / Mythic Rare slot and almost no Uncommon is playable. Furthermore, when said "juice" rotates out of standard it won't be worth a penny because the set's card quality was low. This is not a hard concept to grasp.
It's hard to argue on anything more than anecdotal evidence since WOTC don't actually publish figures about player attendance, but I get the general impression that standard is more popular and has a wider audience than ever before. Yeah, WOTC are making the game simpler and pushing power and complexity up in rarity. Probably for financial game, since having powerful rares and mythics in a set makes it sell more. You can make an argument for standard being less fun, less powerful than before, but I don't think you can say it's dying when more people are playing it than ever before.
I dunno... Standard's got a huge audience in the Greater Bay Area California. Some stores I know of get near total capacity on any given day of the week for Sealed, Drafts, Standard, and even Block. IMHO it's just the way things ought to be but that's just my own humble opinions. For Modern? Feh... Four stores in 75 miles regularly does it once a week and they sometimes have troubles getting 8 people. Same goes for Legacy (10 proxies or no) because of sheer costs alone. It's just the way things are, really. Only reason I'm so invested in Modern and Legacy is because I've been playing 20 years and every once in a while I do build a standard deck or two just to be able to play with others.
To me, today's Standard is very balanced, and I kind of like the power levels. And there's a lot of cards in the current standard that's played in both Modern and Legacy.
EDH is another story. It is and always will be a casual format. I've loved EDH since the days of Legends and it's really the only reason why I still play Magic. From Alpha until Legends I was ready to quit playing. Alpha and Beta different sizes, alpha cards illegal. Arabian Nights was so limited some stores didn't even get half their orders. Legends with booster cases missing half of the cards due to print run errors. Then came the Dark and Fallen Empires. Many people I knew quit because of all the things that kept popping up. There were no longer decks with 20 Lotuses, 10 Channels, 10 Fireballs, 20 Ancestral Recalls, and free mulligans for all land hands or no land hands. Now it was Mazes, Goblin Grenades, Racks, and Hymn to Tourach. I stuck it out and waited. Land Destruct became a favorite strategy of mine with new and nasty toys, Icy came back in Ice Age and coupled with Royal Assassin and Stasis with Time Elemental and Kismet things got interesting.
You know, three things that Wizards did to irritate me:
First, they got rid of Mana Burn. That was such a valid strategy to kill your opponents with. And people actually had to think before adding mana to their mana pools so blindly.
Second, they got rid of the most fun strategy, Land Destruct.
Strategies kept changing from one day to the next, if people were playing as long as I was will remember the power level differences when Ice Age came in and established blocks, Type 1, 1.5, and Type 2. They would remember how power levels would peak, and drop. Remember Prophecy? Mirage? Urza's Saga? Torment? Onslaught? Things would always go up and down depending on the current standard. People here are afraid of Power Creep, but they obviously don't remember Affinity or Skull Clamps or even Urza block. Especially the Urza Block. What about Alliances with FoW? I remember it was bulk card nobody really bought until someone took a deck to worlds and it was the most expensive card in MtG outside of the Moxen and Lotus.
While there is definitely Power Creep (Serra Angel was the most awesome rare in White, and now it's an uncommon with things way outshining it like Baneslayer Angel and Archangel of Thune) there really hasn't been much of it. Sometimes mistakes happen like Jace, the Mind Sculptor and Stoneforge Mystic but the game is really very balanced, again (I quit playing Standard until after JTMS was banned, too little too late IMHO I saw a lot of people quit playing Magic and sell all their cards before they did that). I wonder if it's time for MtG to start making super powerful cards again in the next block and bring power levels back down again. They seem to do this every few years.
Note, I play mostly EDH, Legacy, and Modern. Sometimes I love standard, but that's when I want balanced and no shenanigans.
Standard feeds all the other formats, as is constantly changing/rotating.
That, and the fact it's the 2nd-highest used format for tournaments (Limited being #1).
It's not going anywhere, and yes you are ranting.
That is not actually true.
If you watched Grand Prix Richmond it was said that Modern is the number 2 format right behind Standard. Limited is only third.
And seeing that Richmond was a Modern Grand Prix and the biggest constructed one ever with over 4300 people that statement is most likely true.
Im one of those people myself who quite Standard to get into Modern because Theros block is just a joke and it's not even the powerlevel that bothers me the most. Its the ridiculous focus on creatures.
Lets take a look at the mechanics of the block: Inspired: Whenever my creature untaps stuff happens Monstrosity: I can pay mana to make my creature bigger and maybe other stuff happens too Bestow: I can enchant my creature with another creature that falls off when the enchanted creature dies. Heroic: Whenever I target my creature with another spell stuff happens. Tribute: You can choose to give my creature +1/+1 counters otherwise stuff happens. Devotion: Technically this works with all permanent types but Theros block doesnt have many non-creature permanents that are worth playing. Therefore it's just another creature mechanic. Scry: Well this would be really good if there would be more good scry available. The best scry is the from the temples which enter the battelfield tapped and it's only scry 1. If a Serum Visions or a Preordain, hell even a Condescend would be in the format than we would be taking but of course they aren't. Scry feels just forced and like an afterthought. Strive: This is basically just multi-kicker and guess on which spells this exists the most. Right, most of them are combat tricks that only work with creatures. Constellation: Now this would also be nice when there wouldn't be the fact that this exists only on creatures and since there aren't many non-creature enchantments that are playable like already mentioned we have yet another creature mechanic.
Now I dont hate creatures on a fundamental level but the creatures that I enjoy playing are looking like Spellstutter Sprite, Snapcaster Mage, Dark Confidant, Vendilion Clique, Mistbind Clique etc.
Creatures that have good utility attached to them or give me more gas.
Theros doesnt have any of those too. Brimaz, King of Oreskos: a dumb beater than can only attack or block Polukranos, World Eater: a dumb beater than can only atttack or block. Let's face it the monstrosity wont be ever useful outside of a dedicated Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx ramp deck. Courser of Kruphix: Now this one is not bad but the effect is unrealiable since in depends on the top of deck. If there aren't any lands then you get no advantages and again just have a dumb beater that can only attack or block.
I did play until Born of the Gods got released but the only thing that kept me there were the Azorius control cards from Return to Ravnica. I don't even want to think about how Standard will look like once Ravnica rotates out. Better to jump ship before Im forced to play with cards that I dont enjoy playing with.
It is a lot more complex than you're making it out to be. All of these cards shouldn't be worth more than the paper and ink they're printed on, but they are.
The reason uncommon was better back then is because we didn't always have a mythic rarity. So, obviously when you add a new level of rarity, the cards in the rarity levels below them are going to get a little worse, because it is going to skew the power level.
You can't expect them to keep the same card quality, and keep finding new things to print that are just as good as those old cards. Sure, they could print things better than that easily, by using the cards as templates and reducing costs or adding effects. They can make them worse by downgrading them. But keeping the same quality through different cards is insanely difficult, without just reprinting old cards. And if they reprint them, the game is stagnant and standard never changes.
You understand that card prices are determined mostly by the secondary market... right? Wizards doesn't sell individual cards for X amount of money, wizards sets the price of and sells their packs. Any cost after that is determined by the community market. It doesn't make wizards extra money. So i think your anger is far misplaced.
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Whats the big deal about black lotus you ask? Well you see, there is no big deal about it. It IS the big deal.
What even? Snapcaster Mage hasn't been out for even a year and is one of the most powerful Spells EVER printed. And you're complaining about it leaving.
Like, right now.
What even? I genuinely cannot take any of this seriously. You purposefully ignore the FOURTEEN chase Rares in the Lands of Jund. I am so out. This is so stupid.
Again, I'm not saying they're actively and consciously trying to kill Standard. It's more of a side effect that will happen if they keep up with this power level.
They would have to actively try to kill Standard to achieve it. They're not going to "accidentally" kill it. They look at stuff like tournament attendance and player satisfaction. They can very well stumble and make a crappy block that hurts Standard, but they won't make three of those in a row.
I'm mostly curious about what Wizards think of Theros. Many people, myself included, have noticed a drop in Standard attendance. I do hope WotC's market research shows them that making blocks like Theros is just going to hurt them.
In your opinion why did Theros block hurt attendance at standard? I know for myself that the flavor was way off from what I wanted so I haven't bought a pack or attended FNM during Theros' time.
In your opinion why did Theros block hurt attendance at standard? I know for myself that the flavor was way off from what I wanted so I haven't bought a pack or attended FNM during Theros' time.
My own opinion? Prerelease sucked with the semi randomized decks.
Then event decks got worse when they switched to one deck.
But Journey? hahahahaha!!!! Prerelease made some stores run out of material needed to do the release day. That was awesome.
That might have sounded arrogant, but I didn't meant it as such, I was stating everything matter of factly and with no prejudices or grudges. You're just projecting your insecurities onto me, nowhere did I say standard was for "casual newbs" only, there are obviously a lot of veterans, pros and experiences players who enjoy it. But it's a FACT that newbies to MTG sanctioned tournaments start with standard, and most of them don't go outside of it. Why would they start anywhere else? It just makes sense. It's got a small, recent card pool so it's easy to get into. The initial buy in is lower. Everyone is playing it so you can find a game anywhere.
Please stop inferring the wrong things from my posts.
My insecurities? Really? About liking Standard?
Even if you were just making observations, you've got to admit a line like this does sound pretty arrogant:
I did play until Born of the Gods got released but the only thing that kept me there were the Azorius control cards from Return to Ravnica. I don't even want to think about how Standard will look like once Ravnica rotates out. Better to jump ship before Im forced to play with cards that I dont enjoy playing with.
Yeah, it does feel like RTR was the last time they pushed the power somewhere else than in creature-based strategies. And I thought Theros block would bring strong enchantments, it turns out they're all creatures or cards that support creatures...
The fact that Theros block as a whole was so bad puts a lot of pressure on Khans of Tarkir, since Standard won't have a safety cushion if the set turns out to be bland. Really hope they can make it work.
I have been playing since 1995 and this current standard blocks is at least the second most boring block ever. The problem is there are very few good commons and uncommons . I blame mythic for this commons are now jank, uncommons are now what used to be commons and rares are now what used to be your uncommons. So years ago your deck was mostly commons and uncommons with a few rares and now its very few commons and uncommons and mostly rares and mythics. Commons have become almost useless. When you are used to high octane fuel low grade will not cut it that's why us older players feel standard is weak because it is, new player don't know any difference. The game is growing so for every older player that sets out of standard at least 2 more new players will start.
It is a lot more complex than you're making it out to be. All of these cards shouldn't be worth more than the paper and ink they're printed on, but they are.
The reason uncommon was better back then is because we didn't always have a mythic rarity. So, obviously when you add a new level of rarity, the cards in the rarity levels below them are going to get a little worse, because it is going to skew the power level.
You can't expect them to keep the same card quality, and keep finding new things to print that are just as good as those old cards. Sure, they could print things better than that easily, by using the cards as templates and reducing costs or adding effects. They can make them worse by downgrading them. But keeping the same quality through different cards is insanely difficult, without just reprinting old cards. And if they reprint them, the game is stagnant and standard never changes.
You understand that card prices are determined mostly by the secondary market... right? Wizards doesn't sell individual cards for X amount of money, wizards sets the price of and sells their packs. Any cost after that is determined by the community market. It doesn't make wizards extra money. So i think your anger is far misplaced.
Except for the fact that Mythic rarity came in Alara, and up to SOM there were still powerful uncommons. That's three whole blocks with good uncommons that also have Mythic Rarity in them.
Also, the last paragraph is just misinformed. Of course Wizards sets the prize to the packs and sell them. By making the powerful cards Mythic Rares, it means that they are very, very difficult to open. The chance to open a mythic rare in a pack is approximately 1/6, so you will open only a mythic each 6 packs to buy. But hey wait, there are 15 mythics, so that's 1/15 chance that you get the one mythic you want assuming your booster has a mythic in the first place. That makes it a 1/90 chance of opening the mythic you want in a pack. But hey, since you HAVE to run this chase mythic in playsets (Master of Waves, Thassa) or you simply aren't going to win, you have to pull that chance 3 more times. If you had to buy 90 boosters to get the mythic you want, to get it 4 times you'd have to buy 360 booster packs, which are 11 booster boxes and a few more booster packs. For arguments sake let's assume that a booster box costs 90$. That would be 990$ on the 11 booster boxes and not counting the lone booster packs just to get a single playset of mythics by opening booster packs (which is how shops like SCG and the likes get them, before you jump on me saying "but you can just buy singles!"). Now imagine a deck like Devotion to Blue which packs 2 Mythic Playsets in Master of Whaves and Thassa, and sometimes splashes W for Ephara. Think about decks that run 16+ mythics (INN-M13-RAV's Jund) on top of a really expensive manabase and some playsets of pricey rares, even removal (the math here would be slightly different, but staggering as well), and now say again that Wizards "doesn't make extra money by pushing staples up the rarity scale". Also I don't know where are you getting from that I'm angry other than assumptions.
Now I dont hate creatures on a fundamental level but the creatures that I enjoy playing are looking like Spellstutter Sprite, Snapcaster Mage, Dark Confidant, Vendilion Clique, Mistbind Clique etc.
Creatures that have good utility attached to them or give me more gas.
Theros doesnt have any of those too. Brimaz, King of Oreskos: a dumb beater than can only attack or block Polukranos, World Eater: a dumb beater than can only atttack or block. Let's face it the monstrosity wont be ever useful outside of a dedicated Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx ramp deck. Courser of Kruphix: Now this one is not bad but the effect is unrealiable since in depends on the top of deck. If there aren't any lands then you get no advantages and again just have a dumb beater that can only attack or block.
I did play until Born of the Gods got released but the only thing that kept me there were the Azorius control cards from Return to Ravnica. I don't even want to think about how Standard will look like once Ravnica rotates out. Better to jump ship before Im forced to play with cards that I dont enjoy playing with.
lol... Really?
Brimaz has a home in Modern, Legacy, and Standard. Tarmogoyf's a dumb creature that can only attack or block. Courser, I dunno. It's not all that good. Snappy is why I pack Scooze. Faeries? Sheesh. I laugh at faeries when I play mono green elves and all I do is attack and kill my opponent on turn 3. Good times!
In your opinion why did Theros block hurt attendance at standard? I know for myself that the flavor was way off from what I wanted so I haven't bought a pack or attended FNM during Theros' time.
A lot of people mentioned it in this thread: this Standard format is just boring.
Now, why is it boring? It's a mixture of many things: low power level, bad mechanics, generic decks. Your not doing fun stuff in this format. Devotion is about the craziest it goes, you play a bunch permanents with enough mana symbols on them, and it makes one or two other cards in your deck viable.
Most keywords, both in RTR and THS, are just too weak or vulnerable to be used competitively, so since you aren't building decks around them or the themes of the blocks, you end up building generic forms of aggro, midrange and control decks. And as soon as you are trying to get creative with synergies, Thoughtseize just comes and ruins everything.
It just doesn't feel like the decks in the RTR/THS Standard are unique and would be impossible in another Standard format, they look more like stronger limited decks than anything else...
I have been playing since 1995 and this current standard blocks is at least the second most boring block ever. The problem is there are very few good commons and uncommons . I blame mythic for this commons are now jank, uncommons are now what used to be commons and rares are now what used to be your uncommons. So years ago your deck was mostly commons and uncommons with a few rares and now its very few commons and uncommons and mostly rares and mythics. Commons have become almost useless. When you are used to high octane fuel low grade will not cut it that's why us older players feel standard is weak because it is, new player don't know any difference. The game is growing so for every older player that sets out of standard at least 2 more new players will start.
This is precisely what I have been saying for two pages. Thank you.
It just doesn't feel like the decks in the RTR/THS Standard are unique and would be impossible in another Standard format, they look more like stronger limited decks than anything else...
This statement is the one that has come the closest to define what I feel in the entire thread. Mind if I put it on the sig?
It is a lot more complex than you're making it out to be. All of these cards shouldn't be worth more than the paper and ink they're printed on, but they are.
The reason uncommon was better back then is because we didn't always have a mythic rarity. So, obviously when you add a new level of rarity, the cards in the rarity levels below them are going to get a little worse, because it is going to skew the power level.
You can't expect them to keep the same card quality, and keep finding new things to print that are just as good as those old cards. Sure, they could print things better than that easily, by using the cards as templates and reducing costs or adding effects. They can make them worse by downgrading them. But keeping the same quality through different cards is insanely difficult, without just reprinting old cards. And if they reprint them, the game is stagnant and standard never changes.
You understand that card prices are determined mostly by the secondary market... right? Wizards doesn't sell individual cards for X amount of money, wizards sets the price of and sells their packs. Any cost after that is determined by the community market. It doesn't make wizards extra money. So i think your anger is far misplaced.
Well wizards can reprint existing cards and avoid power creep. I think issues is partly wizards is always trying to make new crap, and does not embrace using reprints to the fullest extent for the standard environment. What is the percentage of new cards to reprints in standard right now? It also makes the game more affordable allowing to reach a wider audience.
Looking at older standard decks they are a lot more commons and uncommon like take a look at UG madness the only rares are the lands and the core of the deck is commons and uncommons.
I think pushing removal to rares and uncommon is a travesty. They are commonly needed cards so making them a rare or uncommon is just a cash grab.
Further making new cards for lowest common denominator irks me to no end. Why the heck do we need NWO. Also printing *****ty land destruction/resource denial cards, weak counter magic, weak to non-existent prison cards, because they are unfun is bollocks. Categorizing ramp and hexproof auras as combo is even more absurd. I sometimes wonder if R&D even knows what they are doing. I remember posting a while ago that the current Theros block has very little and I mean very little non creature cards outside of creature removal. The current environment is just creatures and removal that's freaking bland and just going to push good stuff decks.
I haven't updated the math since Journey into Nyx, but still
I just wish wizards would quit pushing for limited formats so much. If I wanted to play with crap cards I would rather just use them for vintage mental magic. While sealed and draft have the deck building aspect which is nice. I think wizards pushes limited to much to try and make money. I haven't bought a boosted pack since Theros, and kinda glad about it.
The power down had zero to do with limited.
As for not designing for limited, limited players crack the packs you buy singles out of. If Wotc goes away from designing for limited, less cards get into the singles bins, and prices are even higher.
People dont understand how important limited is to all formats. Especially if you are one who buys singles.
Cards would still be balanced out by the average value of a pack. If the packs value on average went up beyond their purchase value stores would open the packs to sell the singles. So you don't need drafters to open singles. Also making some cards obviously bad in my opinion gets rid of the merits of limited play. A player should have to think about every card in your colors. I think they should make cards harder to evaluate, and increase the power on the low end. Make limited more synergy focused versus freaking boring bland creatures. Currently, the Theros block has only one enchantment that is not a creature or does not reference a creature and that is Nylea's Presence. That's freaking sad. Currenyly of the 414 cards so far in the Theros block 30 do not reference any creatures at all and are not lands. That's 7.2% of cards that don't mention creatures at all. However if you don't count the counter-spells, Thoughtseize, and enchantment removal (as narrow creature removal) that number is even lower. That's 16 cards left that don't effect creatures I can drop it down to 15 I take Whims of the Fates out since it can kill creatures. That's 3.6% at 15 cards. I think its time wizards does something a little different. Also here are those 15 cards.
That seems exciting... So standard basically is just creatures and removal how freaking boring. Plus most the interesting effects are tagged onto creatures for Christ's sakes. It's all really sad.
Now I dont hate creatures on a fundamental level but the creatures that I enjoy playing are looking like Spellstutter Sprite, Snapcaster Mage, Dark Confidant, Vendilion Clique, Mistbind Clique etc.
Creatures that have good utility attached to them or give me more gas.
Theros doesnt have any of those too. Brimaz, King of Oreskos: a dumb beater than can only attack or block Polukranos, World Eater: a dumb beater than can only atttack or block. Let's face it the monstrosity wont be ever useful outside of a dedicated Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx ramp deck. Courser of Kruphix: Now this one is not bad but the effect is unrealiable since in depends on the top of deck. If there aren't any lands then you get no advantages and again just have a dumb beater that can only attack or block.
I did play until Born of the Gods got released but the only thing that kept me there were the Azorius control cards from Return to Ravnica. I don't even want to think about how Standard will look like once Ravnica rotates out. Better to jump ship before Im forced to play with cards that I dont enjoy playing with.
lol... Really?
Brimaz has a home in Modern, Legacy, and Standard. Tarmogoyf's a dumb creature that can only attack or block. Courser, I dunno. It's not all that good. Snappy is why I pack Scooze. Faeries? Sheesh. I laugh at faeries when I play mono green elves and all I do is attack and kill my opponent on turn 3. Good times!
Cool for you that you enjoy your creature bash fest but a lot of people dont enjoy it.
Brimaz doesnt see play in Modern at least not in a Tier 1 or Tier 2 deck I know of and and he doesnt in Standard either, hell even in the Theros block Pro Tour he didn't shine and just because he sees legacy play doesnt mean he isnt a dumb creature. The last time I checked you can only attack or block with him since there is no other ability on him and yes Tarmogoyf is an expensive dumb beater too which is why I will never even think about buying that card since a creature that can only attack or block is not interesting.
I get the feeling that you are a typical green player...
Theros was the one that had to bite the bullet for the sake of curbing the power in standard so Khans of Tarkir can really flex since its a down-up design instead of a top-down design. Which wouldn't even be any different than what a decade ago. Kamigawa was also top-down in design and people have noted its low power level, then along comes Ravnica: City of Guilds to make things all better as it can flex more.
... and so history repeats itself.
I was playing standard consistently since 1995, I quit standard when caw-blade was around and haven't gone back since. I think that requires little explanation on why.
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As a limited only player myself, I'm glad there is an increase in the amount of people willing to spend on standard. It lets me sell some of the more expensive rares at better than buy prices from stores.
SFM and JTMS? I understand not insta banned and were used in modern (SFM being in an event deck and allowed in tournaments even after the banning - good read), power is still power and warped standard (either have it or have cards [many cards] to counter it in every deck).
I buy HP and Damaged cards!
Only EDH:
Sigarda, Host of Herons: Enchantress' Enchantments
Jenara, Asura of War: ETB Value Town
Purphoros, God of the Forge: Global Punishment
Xenagos, God of Revels: Ramp, Sneak, & Heavy Hitters
Ghave, Guru of Spores: Dies_to_Doom_Blade's stax list
Edric, Spymaster of Trest: Donald's list
agree - prices are on the rise. Last season, Jund was a $1k+ dollar deck.... Even UW control was up there. Also, last season (and a little bit of this season) you could use older versions of shock/check lands. I understand temples are 'cheap' but mana bases are a majority of the cost.
I buy HP and Damaged cards!
Only EDH:
Sigarda, Host of Herons: Enchantress' Enchantments
Jenara, Asura of War: ETB Value Town
Purphoros, God of the Forge: Global Punishment
Xenagos, God of Revels: Ramp, Sneak, & Heavy Hitters
Ghave, Guru of Spores: Dies_to_Doom_Blade's stax list
Edric, Spymaster of Trest: Donald's list
That's not the point of the argument though. Those cards are obviously broken in half. I was talking about back then when your deck was mostly commons and uncommons and then some rare bombs, like the Jund deck I listed above.
I didn't say that Standard is dying, I said that it will die eventually (read: not in the near future) if they keep down the Theros hill.
This guy gets it.
Thanks to DNC from Heroes of the Plane Studios for the sig
Check my Pauper Cube!
I understand. Now we have more mythic rares that are highly sought after due to power and most decks will just run rares. Basically goodstuff.dec. Even though the price of entry is increasing, it is not dying out. There are many decks that are budget. However, you can Pay-to-Win.
I buy HP and Damaged cards!
Only EDH:
Sigarda, Host of Herons: Enchantress' Enchantments
Jenara, Asura of War: ETB Value Town
Purphoros, God of the Forge: Global Punishment
Xenagos, God of Revels: Ramp, Sneak, & Heavy Hitters
Ghave, Guru of Spores: Dies_to_Doom_Blade's stax list
Edric, Spymaster of Trest: Donald's list
Of course as time goes on the cards are going to get more expensive. That's inflation. New cards are going to get more and more expensive, especially as the fanbase grows and there is even more demand for those cards. That's why i would thank you all to stay away from legacy.
Like I said, I already play Legacy. I'm not complaining about prices. I'm complaining about card quality. Path to Exile is more expensive than Hero's Downfall because Path is ten times better. Path is uncommon and Downfall isn't because Path is from an age where card quality was a lot better than it is now. Cards are being pushed to the upper rarities as a money strategy from wizards, and now all the juice of a set is on the Rare / Mythic Rare slot and almost no Uncommon is playable. Furthermore, when said "juice" rotates out of standard it won't be worth a penny because the set's card quality was low. This is not a hard concept to grasp.
Thanks to DNC from Heroes of the Plane Studios for the sig
Check my Pauper Cube!
I dunno... Standard's got a huge audience in the Greater Bay Area California. Some stores I know of get near total capacity on any given day of the week for Sealed, Drafts, Standard, and even Block. IMHO it's just the way things ought to be but that's just my own humble opinions. For Modern? Feh... Four stores in 75 miles regularly does it once a week and they sometimes have troubles getting 8 people. Same goes for Legacy (10 proxies or no) because of sheer costs alone. It's just the way things are, really. Only reason I'm so invested in Modern and Legacy is because I've been playing 20 years and every once in a while I do build a standard deck or two just to be able to play with others.
To me, today's Standard is very balanced, and I kind of like the power levels. And there's a lot of cards in the current standard that's played in both Modern and Legacy.
EDH is another story. It is and always will be a casual format. I've loved EDH since the days of Legends and it's really the only reason why I still play Magic. From Alpha until Legends I was ready to quit playing. Alpha and Beta different sizes, alpha cards illegal. Arabian Nights was so limited some stores didn't even get half their orders. Legends with booster cases missing half of the cards due to print run errors. Then came the Dark and Fallen Empires. Many people I knew quit because of all the things that kept popping up. There were no longer decks with 20 Lotuses, 10 Channels, 10 Fireballs, 20 Ancestral Recalls, and free mulligans for all land hands or no land hands. Now it was Mazes, Goblin Grenades, Racks, and Hymn to Tourach. I stuck it out and waited. Land Destruct became a favorite strategy of mine with new and nasty toys, Icy came back in Ice Age and coupled with Royal Assassin and Stasis with Time Elemental and Kismet things got interesting.
You know, three things that Wizards did to irritate me:
First, they got rid of Mana Burn. That was such a valid strategy to kill your opponents with. And people actually had to think before adding mana to their mana pools so blindly.
Second, they got rid of the most fun strategy, Land Destruct.
Third, things like Kismet/Stasis/Time Elemental lock was no longer allowed.
Strategies kept changing from one day to the next, if people were playing as long as I was will remember the power level differences when Ice Age came in and established blocks, Type 1, 1.5, and Type 2. They would remember how power levels would peak, and drop. Remember Prophecy? Mirage? Urza's Saga? Torment? Onslaught? Things would always go up and down depending on the current standard. People here are afraid of Power Creep, but they obviously don't remember Affinity or Skull Clamps or even Urza block. Especially the Urza Block. What about Alliances with FoW? I remember it was bulk card nobody really bought until someone took a deck to worlds and it was the most expensive card in MtG outside of the Moxen and Lotus.
While there is definitely Power Creep (Serra Angel was the most awesome rare in White, and now it's an uncommon with things way outshining it like Baneslayer Angel and Archangel of Thune) there really hasn't been much of it. Sometimes mistakes happen like Jace, the Mind Sculptor and Stoneforge Mystic but the game is really very balanced, again (I quit playing Standard until after JTMS was banned, too little too late IMHO I saw a lot of people quit playing Magic and sell all their cards before they did that). I wonder if it's time for MtG to start making super powerful cards again in the next block and bring power levels back down again. They seem to do this every few years.
Note, I play mostly EDH, Legacy, and Modern. Sometimes I love standard, but that's when I want balanced and no shenanigans.
That is not actually true.
If you watched Grand Prix Richmond it was said that Modern is the number 2 format right behind Standard. Limited is only third.
And seeing that Richmond was a Modern Grand Prix and the biggest constructed one ever with over 4300 people that statement is most likely true.
Im one of those people myself who quite Standard to get into Modern because Theros block is just a joke and it's not even the powerlevel that bothers me the most. Its the ridiculous focus on creatures.
Lets take a look at the mechanics of the block:
Inspired: Whenever my creature untaps stuff happens
Monstrosity: I can pay mana to make my creature bigger and maybe other stuff happens too
Bestow: I can enchant my creature with another creature that falls off when the enchanted creature dies.
Heroic: Whenever I target my creature with another spell stuff happens.
Tribute: You can choose to give my creature +1/+1 counters otherwise stuff happens.
Devotion: Technically this works with all permanent types but Theros block doesnt have many non-creature permanents that are worth playing. Therefore it's just another creature mechanic.
Scry: Well this would be really good if there would be more good scry available. The best scry is the from the temples which enter the battelfield tapped and it's only scry 1. If a Serum Visions or a Preordain, hell even a Condescend would be in the format than we would be taking but of course they aren't. Scry feels just forced and like an afterthought.
Strive: This is basically just multi-kicker and guess on which spells this exists the most. Right, most of them are combat tricks that only work with creatures.
Constellation: Now this would also be nice when there wouldn't be the fact that this exists only on creatures and since there aren't many non-creature enchantments that are playable like already mentioned we have yet another creature mechanic.
Now I dont hate creatures on a fundamental level but the creatures that I enjoy playing are looking like Spellstutter Sprite, Snapcaster Mage, Dark Confidant, Vendilion Clique, Mistbind Clique etc.
Creatures that have good utility attached to them or give me more gas.
Theros doesnt have any of those too.
Brimaz, King of Oreskos: a dumb beater than can only attack or block
Polukranos, World Eater: a dumb beater than can only atttack or block. Let's face it the monstrosity wont be ever useful outside of a dedicated Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx ramp deck.
Courser of Kruphix: Now this one is not bad but the effect is unrealiable since in depends on the top of deck. If there aren't any lands then you get no advantages and again just have a dumb beater that can only attack or block.
I did play until Born of the Gods got released but the only thing that kept me there were the Azorius control cards from Return to Ravnica. I don't even want to think about how Standard will look like once Ravnica rotates out. Better to jump ship before Im forced to play with cards that I dont enjoy playing with.
I loathe creatures! Praise Prison and Land Destruction!
My Peasant Cube (looking for feedback)
The reason uncommon was better back then is because we didn't always have a mythic rarity. So, obviously when you add a new level of rarity, the cards in the rarity levels below them are going to get a little worse, because it is going to skew the power level.
You can't expect them to keep the same card quality, and keep finding new things to print that are just as good as those old cards. Sure, they could print things better than that easily, by using the cards as templates and reducing costs or adding effects. They can make them worse by downgrading them. But keeping the same quality through different cards is insanely difficult, without just reprinting old cards. And if they reprint them, the game is stagnant and standard never changes.
You understand that card prices are determined mostly by the secondary market... right? Wizards doesn't sell individual cards for X amount of money, wizards sets the price of and sells their packs. Any cost after that is determined by the community market. It doesn't make wizards extra money. So i think your anger is far misplaced.
Have you actually read the thread?
Thanks to DNC from Heroes of the Plane Studios for the sig
Check my Pauper Cube!
In your opinion why did Theros block hurt attendance at standard? I know for myself that the flavor was way off from what I wanted so I haven't bought a pack or attended FNM during Theros' time.
My own opinion? Prerelease sucked with the semi randomized decks.
Then event decks got worse when they switched to one deck.
But Journey? hahahahaha!!!! Prerelease made some stores run out of material needed to do the release day. That was awesome.
Even if you were just making observations, you've got to admit a line like this does sound pretty arrogant:
Yeah, it does feel like RTR was the last time they pushed the power somewhere else than in creature-based strategies. And I thought Theros block would bring strong enchantments, it turns out they're all creatures or cards that support creatures...
The fact that Theros block as a whole was so bad puts a lot of pressure on Khans of Tarkir, since Standard won't have a safety cushion if the set turns out to be bland. Really hope they can make it work.
Except for the fact that Mythic rarity came in Alara, and up to SOM there were still powerful uncommons. That's three whole blocks with good uncommons that also have Mythic Rarity in them.
Also, the last paragraph is just misinformed. Of course Wizards sets the prize to the packs and sell them. By making the powerful cards Mythic Rares, it means that they are very, very difficult to open. The chance to open a mythic rare in a pack is approximately 1/6, so you will open only a mythic each 6 packs to buy. But hey wait, there are 15 mythics, so that's 1/15 chance that you get the one mythic you want assuming your booster has a mythic in the first place. That makes it a 1/90 chance of opening the mythic you want in a pack. But hey, since you HAVE to run this chase mythic in playsets (Master of Waves, Thassa) or you simply aren't going to win, you have to pull that chance 3 more times. If you had to buy 90 boosters to get the mythic you want, to get it 4 times you'd have to buy 360 booster packs, which are 11 booster boxes and a few more booster packs. For arguments sake let's assume that a booster box costs 90$. That would be 990$ on the 11 booster boxes and not counting the lone booster packs just to get a single playset of mythics by opening booster packs (which is how shops like SCG and the likes get them, before you jump on me saying "but you can just buy singles!"). Now imagine a deck like Devotion to Blue which packs 2 Mythic Playsets in Master of Whaves and Thassa, and sometimes splashes W for Ephara. Think about decks that run 16+ mythics (INN-M13-RAV's Jund) on top of a really expensive manabase and some playsets of pricey rares, even removal (the math here would be slightly different, but staggering as well), and now say again that Wizards "doesn't make extra money by pushing staples up the rarity scale". Also I don't know where are you getting from that I'm angry other than assumptions.
Thanks to DNC from Heroes of the Plane Studios for the sig
Check my Pauper Cube!
lol... Really?
Brimaz has a home in Modern, Legacy, and Standard. Tarmogoyf's a dumb creature that can only attack or block. Courser, I dunno. It's not all that good. Snappy is why I pack Scooze. Faeries? Sheesh. I laugh at faeries when I play mono green elves and all I do is attack and kill my opponent on turn 3. Good times!
A lot of people mentioned it in this thread: this Standard format is just boring.
Now, why is it boring? It's a mixture of many things: low power level, bad mechanics, generic decks. Your not doing fun stuff in this format. Devotion is about the craziest it goes, you play a bunch permanents with enough mana symbols on them, and it makes one or two other cards in your deck viable.
Most keywords, both in RTR and THS, are just too weak or vulnerable to be used competitively, so since you aren't building decks around them or the themes of the blocks, you end up building generic forms of aggro, midrange and control decks. And as soon as you are trying to get creative with synergies, Thoughtseize just comes and ruins everything.
It just doesn't feel like the decks in the RTR/THS Standard are unique and would be impossible in another Standard format, they look more like stronger limited decks than anything else...
This is precisely what I have been saying for two pages. Thank you.
This statement is the one that has come the closest to define what I feel in the entire thread. Mind if I put it on the sig?
Thanks to DNC from Heroes of the Plane Studios for the sig
Check my Pauper Cube!
Well wizards can reprint existing cards and avoid power creep. I think issues is partly wizards is always trying to make new crap, and does not embrace using reprints to the fullest extent for the standard environment. What is the percentage of new cards to reprints in standard right now? It also makes the game more affordable allowing to reach a wider audience.
Looking at older standard decks they are a lot more commons and uncommon like take a look at UG madness the only rares are the lands and the core of the deck is commons and uncommons.
I think pushing removal to rares and uncommon is a travesty. They are commonly needed cards so making them a rare or uncommon is just a cash grab.
Further making new cards for lowest common denominator irks me to no end. Why the heck do we need NWO. Also printing *****ty land destruction/resource denial cards, weak counter magic, weak to non-existent prison cards, because they are unfun is bollocks. Categorizing ramp and hexproof auras as combo is even more absurd. I sometimes wonder if R&D even knows what they are doing. I remember posting a while ago that the current Theros block has very little and I mean very little non creature cards outside of creature removal. The current environment is just creatures and removal that's freaking bland and just going to push good stuff decks.
I haven't updated the math since Journey into Nyx, but still
I loathe creatures! Praise Prison and Land Destruction!
My Peasant Cube (looking for feedback)
Cool for you that you enjoy your creature bash fest but a lot of people dont enjoy it.
Brimaz doesnt see play in Modern at least not in a Tier 1 or Tier 2 deck I know of and and he doesnt in Standard either, hell even in the Theros block Pro Tour he didn't shine and just because he sees legacy play doesnt mean he isnt a dumb creature. The last time I checked you can only attack or block with him since there is no other ability on him and yes Tarmogoyf is an expensive dumb beater too which is why I will never even think about buying that card since a creature that can only attack or block is not interesting.
I get the feeling that you are a typical green player...
... and so history repeats itself.
I was playing standard consistently since 1995, I quit standard when caw-blade was around and haven't gone back since. I think that requires little explanation on why.