Wholeheartedly agree here. It's not the overall prices people want to see dropping. I think many of them are already affordable. It's the cards that are over $30ea that people wish for it to lower.
If one looks at the big picture, spending over $30 on a piece of paper is truly absurd. It goes beyond rationality.
The Mona Lisa is just some paint, canvas, and wood.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Would Dark Confidant still be good if he punched you in the face for 5 damage a turn?
In a post on my account that I can no longer access, I revealed a few things an inside source told me. One of them was that when Modern Masters 2 is released, they'll rerelease Modern Masters 1 as well.
Wholeheartedly agree here. It's not the overall prices people want to see dropping. I think many of them are already affordable. It's the cards that are over $30ea that people wish for it to lower.
If one looks at the big picture, spending over $30 on a piece of paper is truly absurd. It goes beyond rationality.
Pretty sure you spend $30+ on a piece of paper quite a bit. Or do you refuse to use fifty and hundred dollar bills out of principle?
Wholeheartedly agree here. It's not the overall prices people want to see dropping. I think many of them are already affordable. It's the cards that are over $30ea that people wish for it to lower.
If one looks at the big picture, spending over $30 on a piece of paper is truly absurd. It goes beyond rationality.
I'm continually amazed at the lack of understand of basic economic principles, and people's feeling of entitlement to have things at a price they feel is the "correct" price. You are entitled to nothing. You must pay what the market has set the worth at. Overprinting will not fix all problems, it will only fix your problem and create problems for the Magic community as a whole. Stop being selfish, and deal with the fact that the cards are worth what they are worth, not what you feel they should be worth.
In a post on my account that I can no longer access, I revealed a few things an inside source told me. One of them was that when Modern Masters 2 is released, they'll rerelease Modern Masters 1 as well.
I doubt that will happen, but it would be amazing if it did!
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
~A golden helix streaked skyward from the Helvault. A thunderous explosion shattered the silver monolith and Avacyn emerged, free from her prison at last.~
Yeah, I really don't understand at all why people think that MM1 didn't go off pretty much perfectly. Go read Wizard's goals for the set and then tell me if the set didn't accomplish what Wizards wanted, or if it didn't accomplish what YOU wanted. They wanted to increase supply with as minimal effect on prices as possible. I posted in another topic about how the secondary market is probably the most important aspect for the growth and success of this game. To sum it up, if there is a healthy secondary market, there is more advertising and tournaments for Magic. Also, I am of the STRONG opinion that the average price of a competitive modern deck should not be at standard deck levels, but at least 2x that. If they were to reprint fetchlands, that would be about where modern is (if it isn't already). When you make a modern deck, it is good to go potentially forever. Standard decks come and go.
When it comes down to it, MM! dropped prices of its rares by 30%+ and only increased the prices of two of its mythics. I really am sick and tired of hearing the argument about bringing prices down and then seeing people reference Goyf or Bob. Those are 2 cards. There are many competitive decks that don't run Bob or Goyf, so if you are complaining about their prices than either put forth the money or stop complaining. You can't get every card you want if you aren't willing to spend some money. Fetchlands are different, every deck uses them and they are ridiculously expensive. I have 20 atm (playset of each of the 4) and would be TOTALLY cool seeing their prices tank to 20. Makes sense for the game. But stop the talk about a handful of cards that are 50+ dollars when there are still a handful of decks that don't run those cards and are still tier 1. You are not entitled to cheap cards.
Wholeheartedly agree here. It's not the overall prices people want to see dropping. I think many of them are already affordable. It's the cards that are over $30ea that people wish for it to lower.
If one looks at the big picture, spending over $30 on a piece of paper is truly absurd. It goes beyond rationality.
I'm continually amazed at the lack of understand of basic economic principles, and people's feeling of entitlement to have things at a price they feel is the "correct" price. You are entitled to nothing. You must pay what the market has set the worth at. Overprinting will not fix all problems, it will only fix your problem and create problems for the Magic community as a whole. Stop being selfish, and deal with the fact that the cards are worth what they are worth, not what you feel they should be worth.
I wonder why it's "selfish" and "entitled" to want a company to make a product you are interested in purchasing, but it somehow is not selfish or entitled to believe that a company shouldn't make a product people want to buy because you don't want your possessions to be devalued.
I'm continually amazed at the lack of understand of basic economic principles, and people's feeling of entitlement to have things at a price they feel is the "correct" price. You are entitled to nothing. You must pay what the market has set the worth at. Overprinting will not fix all problems, it will only fix your problem and create problems for the Magic community as a whole. Stop being selfish, and deal with the fact that the cards are worth what they are worth, not what you feel they should be worth.
You may question why they made Modern Masters to begin with if not with some scope of reducing price-barriers into the format.
The general idea was: To increase supply in circulation to invite more people to the Modern stage - or so I believe WotC said.
The question is whether they succeeded. It's correct that they increased supply for a time and thus also cards in circulation. However one may ask himself if it wouldn't have been better to keep supply "low", as then only a finite amount of cards were in circulation and eventually other strategies/cards could shine as it was only from time to time that you'd hit one of these cards.
Sometimes it's better to let a powerful card that you cannot just ban slowly fade out of existence or keep "contained" - I figure this is why power-9 haven't been reprinted and in conjunction a welcome (from WotC's perspective) creation of the reserved list - which primarily features powerful or unique cards.
So would Modern have been better off if Tarmogoyf, Bob, Clique and co. simply slowly died out?
However in terms of MMA it might not be in the interest of the current owners of high-value Modern-legal cards to NOT print MMA. MMA secured business for WotC & dealers, Modern expanded its playerbase in short term and its popularity (just imagine being lucky to score some of those high-value cards, and play with them!!). So overall it might have been a favor for the current owners that WotC attempted to secure the interest in the format they play and have the value from. If Modern turns repetitive and boring and when people will flock away from the format the value of those cards will most likely decrease again.
One thing's for sure: WotC didn't print the high-values from MMA with the intention to encourage secondary market purchase, as it did close to nothing for them or arguably might even have worsened it for them.
I cannot really decipher whether or not MMA was a good thing for Modern as a format. It could be associated with pissing your pants; short-term increase but perhaps long-term boundaries and drop in popularity.
Wholeheartedly agree here. It's not the overall prices people want to see dropping. I think many of them are already affordable. It's the cards that are over $30ea that people wish for it to lower.
If one looks at the big picture, spending over $30 on a piece of paper is truly absurd. It goes beyond rationality.
I'm continually amazed at the lack of understand of basic economic principles, and people's feeling of entitlement to have things at a price they feel is the "correct" price. You are entitled to nothing. You must pay what the market has set the worth at. Overprinting will not fix all problems, it will only fix your problem and create problems for the Magic community as a whole. Stop being selfish, and deal with the fact that the cards are worth what they are worth, not what you feel they should be worth.
I wonder why it's "selfish" and "entitled" to want a company to make a product you are interested in purchasing, but it somehow is not selfish or entitled to believe that a company shouldn't make a product people want to buy because you don't want your possessions to be devalued.
At what point did I say I didn't want them to reprint cards? At what point did I reference my collection?
One good thing that could come out of modern masters reprint is that It would get people drafting again. If my LGS had a MM draft, even at 20$ I would go every friday or at least every other friday.
Wholeheartedly agree here. It's not the overall prices people want to see dropping. I think many of them are already affordable. It's the cards that are over $30ea that people wish for it to lower.
If one looks at the big picture, spending over $30 on a piece of paper is truly absurd. It goes beyond rationality.
I'm continually amazed at the lack of understand of basic economic principles, and people's feeling of entitlement to have things at a price they feel is the "correct" price. You are entitled to nothing. You must pay what the market has set the worth at. Overprinting will not fix all problems, it will only fix your problem and create problems for the Magic community as a whole. Stop being selfish, and deal with the fact that the cards are worth what they are worth, not what you feel they should be worth.
I wonder why it's "selfish" and "entitled" to want a company to make a product you are interested in purchasing, but it somehow is not selfish or entitled to believe that a company shouldn't make a product people want to buy because you don't want your possessions to be devalued.
At what point did I say I didn't want them to reprint cards? At what point did I reference my collection?
1. See above. They can't have too much product competition within the same consumer base for different products. MM would sell well, but other products would not. Consumers, after all, have limited incomes to some degree or another. Hence why sets are spaced out as such, and why there are only 2 or so supplemental products each year. They could print a ton of FtVs, Vs. decks, theme decks, event decks, etc each year. But these would ultimately just compete with each other. Wizards is in the business of competing with other companies and brands, not with itself.
2. Chronicles. Seriously, Chronicles. Like it or not, but cards maintaining value is somewhat necessary for the livelihood of the game. We are already collecting really worthless cardboard. Imagine what it would like if it really *was* worthless. Chronicles was liked by some, but hated by many as it pretty much removed any confidence that anything they had would retain long-term value. Meaning many just didn't buy into the game anymore (Or at least there was the very strong possibility to do so). If Wizards went back on their word that MM would be a limited product run, it would reduce confidence in the long term value of certain cards. Some may not care, but to those who have spent 1000+ on decks for Modern it would be a bit shocking to see happen. Granted, somethings should be expected to be reprinted at some time and those who buy them at insane prices should know better, or don't care as much (Fetchlands, I'm looking at you). But ultimately this is a collectable card game, and part and parcel with that is the concept that certain cards are more valuable than others. If Wizards goes back on their word on something like MM, it will cause a lack of confidence in the company.
That said, I'm sure Wizards realizes that there is a high demand for MM, and will compensate for that in future iterations. They'll still be limited print runs, but not nearly as much as MM1. They do *not* want to repeat the fiasco that was Chronicles.
Chronicles was done to early, simple as that. Had they waited five years it would have been fine.
Agreed. And a person shouldn't have to sell organs for Modern format Staples simply because they weren't playing 10 years ago (before you flame, yes I was playing then. Consistently too.) Sure I can understand maybe not printing Bitterblossom or other rares with value. But when uncommons like Remand (yes, I know it is being reprinted) or Inquisition of Kozilek are double digits, perhaps printing some wouldn't hurt. Noone is planning on retiring off of Serum Visions you know.
There has to be some cutoff point, a threshold where Wizards brand/marketing and its affiliates will have to decide how much is too much. People refer to the Chronicles meltdown as a referencing point when it comes to reprinting. But that was years ago, compared to the number of magic players we have today. Demand will rise gradually as we get more magic players, as time goes by.
What we're perhaps wondering is whether the print run is the same as back in the 90s??? That could be an issue here. There're also similar cases with Duel Decks. The very first DDs (JvC and Elves v Goblins) were known to be underprinted, and Wizards adjusted with the following DDs. Has this been adjusted with normal sets (over time) as well? We also see complains with regards to Commanders Arsenal (criminal, really) and more recently, Commander 2013.
Also, I'm not too sure where some of you got the part of "increasing supply with a minimal effect on price". This is a solution that was easily (maybe hastily thought) done by putting certain cards at mythic. What's more, changing the arts of some cards make them more expensive than before. Was that Wizards main aim? One would think the priority would be increasing supply first, to cater to increasing demand, rather than soft impacting prices. But again I refer to my first paragraph. We, as general Magic players all know how much MM cards are truly being circulated around the world, LGS, and between players.
Finally, on the topic of Goyf and Bob. Why keep mentioning those two? Simple. They're the face of Modern. They're the bone of contention; it's not about the decks and the number of them contributing to big tourneys. In fact, why people keep talking about them? It's because they're simply too powerful. Highly in demand, and still within the jurisdiction of DCI/Wizards list of "fair" cards (but are too powerful in Standard environments). Oxymoronic really. "Too powerful, but we'll never ban them, nobody even thinks about it." That's the weirdest thing.
-Omnipresent in eternal formats
-made mythic in MM (on an extremely limited print run for a "draftable" set)
-Untouchables (unbannable, because Wizards would be shooting themselves in the foot if they ban it)
-Makes other cards a scapegoat for their power level (see Brainstorm, Deathrite Shaman, Bloodbraid Elf)
-So powerful that it made "splashes" in decks not in their color or strategy (esp Goyf)
-2 most expensive (power is relative to deck) cards in Modern, and steadily increasing (a sign of increasing demand)
So if anyone's sick of hearing/seeing/listening about those 2, I recommend them to take a step back and think objectively as well. Why people will continue to talk about them. I believe there're more reasons as to why they are popular points for rhetoric.
PS: So if MM's role was to increase supply with a minimal effect on price, did Wizards ever take note or even fathom that both these 2 cards would increase instead (in contrast to their aims to minimize price)?
Here is the quote from Wizards in regards to the comparison between Modern Masters and Chronicles. I have bolded some talking points.
"There will be inevitable comparisons of this set to Chronicles, a much-maligned release from 1995 that flooded the market with reprints of highly sought-after cards from Magic's first few expansions. The outrage from collectors with regards to that set led to the creation of the Reserved List, and our hands are still tied from the effects of those compounded mistakes 17 years later.
Chronicles was brought up internally time and time again as Modern Masters evolved. Our R&D and Brand teams have spent many hours contemplating what Chronicles was trying to accomplish and where it went wrong. I ultimately feel that its biggest sin was that it did not respect people's existing collections—a sin we have no intention of repeating.
A glance at print run numbers available in the public domain shows that Chronicles likely increased the number of some cards in existence by a factor of ten or more! Cards that were rare and highly collectible were suddenly ubiquitous. The error was one of scale, and while I understand what the people working here at the time were trying to accomplish, in retrospect it was handled badly. Granted, they were adding their cards to what was then Type 2 (now Standard) and we are not, but I have to think there was a better way for them to solve the problem.
We won't make that mistake again. We don't want to turn cards from scarce to abundant in the blink of an eye, but we do want to alter the availability by a matter of degrees, all with the goal of growing the reach of the Modern format. Ideally, over time, any short-term drop in desirability of older cards you may own will be recouped as more players enter the format. I can't say it enough: our print run is very small, especially compared to what we're making for our current headliner sets like Return to Ravnica. We're playing in a very delicate space, and we know that, but the promise of the Modern format was that we would address card availability issues, and we are focused on figuring out the best way to do that.
If the set works and accomplishes what we want—more Modern players—we'll contemplate making another set like it some time down the road. But for now, our plan is to stick with our small printing and keep a close eye on what happens."
-The first bolded point is talking about them wanting to respect collectors. This is them stating that this isn't just a game, but a COLLECTIBLE game and that is something they want to respect. They want collections to remain valuable.
-Second bolded point says they didn't want to print a bunch. Experiment or no experiment they didn't want to print a bunch intentionally for all the other reasons, and that hasn't changed.
-The third bolded point about desirability dropping and being recouped reflects a desire that Wizards has to not change prices in the long run. Any drop in price they want to be temporary. As more players join modern, they want prices/desirability to go back to normal
-The underlined, bolded, italicized point is the key here. They are trying to deal with card availability not card affordability. While linked, these two are different. More than anything, it stresses their desire to increase quantity without a drastic change in price.
Here is the quote from Wizards in regards to the comparison between Modern Masters and Chronicles. I have bolded some talking points.
"There will be inevitable comparisons of this set to Chronicles, a much-maligned release from 1995 that flooded the market with reprints of highly sought-after cards from Magic's first few expansions. The outrage from collectors with regards to that set led to the creation of the Reserved List, and our hands are still tied from the effects of those compounded mistakes 17 years later.
Chronicles was brought up internally time and time again as Modern Masters evolved. Our R&D and Brand teams have spent many hours contemplating what Chronicles was trying to accomplish and where it went wrong. I ultimately feel that its biggest sin was that it did not respect people's existing collections—a sin we have no intention of repeating.
A glance at print run numbers available in the public domain shows that Chronicles likely increased the number of some cards in existence by a factor of ten or more! Cards that were rare and highly collectible were suddenly ubiquitous. The error was one of scale, and while I understand what the people working here at the time were trying to accomplish, in retrospect it was handled badly. Granted, they were adding their cards to what was then Type 2 (now Standard) and we are not, but I have to think there was a better way for them to solve the problem.
We won't make that mistake again. We don't want to turn cards from scarce to abundant in the blink of an eye, but we do want to alter the availability by a matter of degrees, all with the goal of growing the reach of the Modern format. Ideally, over time, any short-term drop in desirability of older cards you may own will be recouped as more players enter the format. I can't say it enough: our print run is very small, especially compared to what we're making for our current headliner sets like Return to Ravnica. We're playing in a very delicate space, and we know that, but the promise of the Modern format was that we would address card availability issues, and we are focused on figuring out the best way to do that.
If the set works and accomplishes what we want—more Modern players—we'll contemplate making another set like it some time down the road. But for now, our plan is to stick with our small printing and keep a close eye on what happens."
-The first bolded point is talking about them wanting to respect collectors. This is them stating that this isn't just a game, but a COLLECTIBLE game and that is something they want to respect. They want collections to remain valuable.
-Second bolded point says they didn't want to print a bunch. Experiment or no experiment they didn't want to print a bunch intentionally for all the other reasons, and that hasn't changed.
-The third bolded point about desirability dropping and being recouped reflects a desire that Wizards has to not change prices in the long run. Any drop in price they want to be temporary. As more players join modern, they want prices/desirability to go back to normal
-The underlined, bolded, italicized point is the key here. They are trying to deal with card availability not card affordability. While linked, these two are different. More than anything, it stresses their desire to increase quantity without a drastic change in price.
No one is arguing that they didn't only say they wanted to increase availability, but nothing you quoted shows that they don't want to decrease prices. They said they don't want to tank prices, but here's a huge difference. You only need to look at MM to see that they meant to impact prices, because overall it massively decreased prices (outside of a few outliers). They want it to be affordable, but they don't want to make collections worthless, which is partly what Chronicles did. What is affordable? That is up for debate. I'm mostly happy with card prices outside of Fetches, Bob, and Goyf. I have no problem with $50 cards that are iconic cards of the format, and probably ok with cards upwards of $80 for 'goyf and Bob. But no single card should be $170. It sends a bad message when it is a premier card for the format. In my perfect world, Bob, 'goyf, and Cryptic would be around $75-80, and fetches around $50.
"Ideally, any short-term drop is desirability of older cards you may own will be recouped once more players enter the format."
I wasn't talking about the prices short-term, I meant for the long term Wizards is perfectly happy with expensive modern cards once there are enough people in the format to sustain it.
Sure I can understand maybe not printing Bitterblossom or other rares with value. But when uncommons like Remand (yes, I know it is being reprinted) or Inquisition of Kozilek are double digits, perhaps printing some wouldn't hurt. Noone is planning on retiring off of Serum Visions you know.
And no, none of those are on the Reserved List. They could all potentially be reprinted in a supplementary product tomorrow.
Wizards is careful not to feed to the hungry cartel troll. Consider putting Wasteland in Commander 2015. Casual, commander aficionados will never get close to the product at MSRP again.
Cartels will send their lackeys and scour every Walmart, Target and buy up all copies. Heck, they'll call the distributor to take everything in stock. This is what happened with Umezawa's Jitte in the precon Rat's Nest. This is what happened with True-Name Nemesis in Mind Seize (people taking the contents and filling in basic lands)
This move will be stupid. Wizards aren't very smart, but they sure won't do it with a legacy staple at the very least.
However, 3 of the 4 cards have been reprinted in the form of premium promos. Let's just say a promo FOW isn't out of order, but will be threading dangerous levels.
The size of print runs really matters and Wizards balanced it well with MMA. See, unlike regular sets this has very little junk filler cards in the Rare slot, the majority of packs have good value inside. If the print run of MMA was as large as of a regular standard set, the price distribution of MMA singles would mimic those of a set like Theros - there would be very few cards worth over $2 anymore, most rares would crash to crap level.
A set with that many good cards inside would be opened until the demand for the rarest+most wanted top cards (Tarmogoyf) would be satisfied. By that time all the nice rares that are in the majority of packs would crash to filler junk prices.
The whole set doesn't need a reprint but many of the cards in it should see another printing. A future set like Modern Masters 2 could well have some repeats.
People who think that reprinting modern masters = chronicles are seriously deluded.
There is an EXTREMELY high demand for modern staples right now. Reprinting modern masters in large quantities would increase that demand even more. As it's been shown countless times before, prices will dip but then rise back up again anyway, often higher than before reprints. Original printings maintain a large portion of their value, to boot.
There is no reason not to reprint modern staples. The prices are too instable and anything that even so much sees play as a 1 of in a sideboard is exploding in value because everyone wants to pump and dump. Prices needs to be lowered, but more importantly they need to be STABLE.
They need to reprint modern masters every 2 years, or in accordance with however popular modern is. This would guarantee price stability. They have the power.
Modern Masters was not printed in nearly enough quantity.
Taking your argument to its extreme, a mass reprinting to the point that supply far exceeds demand would in fact make this equal Chronicles. At a certain point the prices of cards will not rebound to their Pre-MM prices if you just keep printing and printing. I agree that prices need to be stables (complete stability is impossible due to metagame), but to do so the amount reprinted needs to be controlled. Lastly, your argument that original printing retain value is also likely untrue if MM overpriced (see Ayesha Tanaka.
Again, I agree some cards need a reprint (Bob and Goyf), but the entire set most certainly does not. Why tank the value of cards like Kataki or Life from the Loam any more?
The Mona Lisa is just some paint, canvas, and wood.
Yea, handpaint vs printed cards... The difference is vast.
UR Melek, Izzet ParagonUR, B Shirei, Shizo's CaretakerB, R Jaya Ballard, Task MageR,RW Tajic, Blade of the LegionRW, UB Lazav, Dimir MastermindUB, UB Circu, Dimir LobotomistUB, RWU Zedruu the GreatheartedRWU, GUBThe MimeoplasmGUB, UGExperiment Kraj UG, WDarien, King of KjeldorW, BMarrow-GnawerB, WBGKarador, Ghost ChieftainWBG, UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU, GWUDerevi, Empyrial TacticianGWU, RDaretti, Scrap SavantR, UTalrand, Sky SummonerU, GEzuri, Renegade LeaderG, WUBRGReaper KingWUBRG, RGXenagos, God of RevelsRG, CKozilek, Butcher of TruthC, WUBRGGeneral TazriWUBRG, GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
Pretty sure you spend $30+ on a piece of paper quite a bit. Or do you refuse to use fifty and hundred dollar bills out of principle?
I'm continually amazed at the lack of understand of basic economic principles, and people's feeling of entitlement to have things at a price they feel is the "correct" price. You are entitled to nothing. You must pay what the market has set the worth at. Overprinting will not fix all problems, it will only fix your problem and create problems for the Magic community as a whole. Stop being selfish, and deal with the fact that the cards are worth what they are worth, not what you feel they should be worth.
Check out http://www.mtgbrodeals.com/author/john-murphy/ for my EDH articles!
I doubt that will happen, but it would be amazing if it did!
When it comes down to it, MM! dropped prices of its rares by 30%+ and only increased the prices of two of its mythics. I really am sick and tired of hearing the argument about bringing prices down and then seeing people reference Goyf or Bob. Those are 2 cards. There are many competitive decks that don't run Bob or Goyf, so if you are complaining about their prices than either put forth the money or stop complaining. You can't get every card you want if you aren't willing to spend some money. Fetchlands are different, every deck uses them and they are ridiculously expensive. I have 20 atm (playset of each of the 4) and would be TOTALLY cool seeing their prices tank to 20. Makes sense for the game. But stop the talk about a handful of cards that are 50+ dollars when there are still a handful of decks that don't run those cards and are still tier 1. You are not entitled to cheap cards.
I wonder why it's "selfish" and "entitled" to want a company to make a product you are interested in purchasing, but it somehow is not selfish or entitled to believe that a company shouldn't make a product people want to buy because you don't want your possessions to be devalued.
The general idea was: To increase supply in circulation to invite more people to the Modern stage - or so I believe WotC said.
The question is whether they succeeded. It's correct that they increased supply for a time and thus also cards in circulation. However one may ask himself if it wouldn't have been better to keep supply "low", as then only a finite amount of cards were in circulation and eventually other strategies/cards could shine as it was only from time to time that you'd hit one of these cards.
Sometimes it's better to let a powerful card that you cannot just ban slowly fade out of existence or keep "contained" - I figure this is why power-9 haven't been reprinted and in conjunction a welcome (from WotC's perspective) creation of the reserved list - which primarily features powerful or unique cards.
So would Modern have been better off if Tarmogoyf, Bob, Clique and co. simply slowly died out?
However in terms of MMA it might not be in the interest of the current owners of high-value Modern-legal cards to NOT print MMA. MMA secured business for WotC & dealers, Modern expanded its playerbase in short term and its popularity (just imagine being lucky to score some of those high-value cards, and play with them!!). So overall it might have been a favor for the current owners that WotC attempted to secure the interest in the format they play and have the value from. If Modern turns repetitive and boring and when people will flock away from the format the value of those cards will most likely decrease again.
One thing's for sure: WotC didn't print the high-values from MMA with the intention to encourage secondary market purchase, as it did close to nothing for them or arguably might even have worsened it for them.
I cannot really decipher whether or not MMA was a good thing for Modern as a format. It could be associated with pissing your pants; short-term increase but perhaps long-term boundaries and drop in popularity.
At what point did I say I didn't want them to reprint cards? At what point did I reference my collection?
Check out http://www.mtgbrodeals.com/author/john-murphy/ for my EDH articles!
BEEEES!
Rabble Red
Modern
Burn
Infect
I was speaking more generally.
Agreed. And a person shouldn't have to sell organs for Modern format Staples simply because they weren't playing 10 years ago (before you flame, yes I was playing then. Consistently too.) Sure I can understand maybe not printing Bitterblossom or other rares with value. But when uncommons like Remand (yes, I know it is being reprinted) or Inquisition of Kozilek are double digits, perhaps printing some wouldn't hurt. Noone is planning on retiring off of Serum Visions you know.
On Modern Masters 2:
Will be kept until 12/31/2013 to prove if Right or Wrong.Proven right 1/27/2013What we're perhaps wondering is whether the print run is the same as back in the 90s??? That could be an issue here. There're also similar cases with Duel Decks. The very first DDs (JvC and Elves v Goblins) were known to be underprinted, and Wizards adjusted with the following DDs. Has this been adjusted with normal sets (over time) as well? We also see complains with regards to Commanders Arsenal (criminal, really) and more recently, Commander 2013.
Also, I'm not too sure where some of you got the part of "increasing supply with a minimal effect on price". This is a solution that was easily (maybe hastily thought) done by putting certain cards at mythic. What's more, changing the arts of some cards make them more expensive than before. Was that Wizards main aim? One would think the priority would be increasing supply first, to cater to increasing demand, rather than soft impacting prices. But again I refer to my first paragraph. We, as general Magic players all know how much MM cards are truly being circulated around the world, LGS, and between players.
Finally, on the topic of Goyf and Bob. Why keep mentioning those two? Simple. They're the face of Modern. They're the bone of contention; it's not about the decks and the number of them contributing to big tourneys. In fact, why people keep talking about them? It's because they're simply too powerful. Highly in demand, and still within the jurisdiction of DCI/Wizards list of "fair" cards (but are too powerful in Standard environments). Oxymoronic really. "Too powerful, but we'll never ban them, nobody even thinks about it." That's the weirdest thing.
-Omnipresent in eternal formats
-made mythic in MM (on an extremely limited print run for a "draftable" set)
-Untouchables (unbannable, because Wizards would be shooting themselves in the foot if they ban it)
-Makes other cards a scapegoat for their power level (see Brainstorm, Deathrite Shaman, Bloodbraid Elf)
-So powerful that it made "splashes" in decks not in their color or strategy (esp Goyf)
-2 most expensive (power is relative to deck) cards in Modern, and steadily increasing (a sign of increasing demand)
So if anyone's sick of hearing/seeing/listening about those 2, I recommend them to take a step back and think objectively as well. Why people will continue to talk about them. I believe there're more reasons as to why they are popular points for rhetoric.
PS: So if MM's role was to increase supply with a minimal effect on price, did Wizards ever take note or even fathom that both these 2 cards would increase instead (in contrast to their aims to minimize price)?
UR Melek, Izzet ParagonUR, B Shirei, Shizo's CaretakerB, R Jaya Ballard, Task MageR,RW Tajic, Blade of the LegionRW, UB Lazav, Dimir MastermindUB, UB Circu, Dimir LobotomistUB, RWU Zedruu the GreatheartedRWU, GUBThe MimeoplasmGUB, UGExperiment Kraj UG, WDarien, King of KjeldorW, BMarrow-GnawerB, WBGKarador, Ghost ChieftainWBG, UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU, GWUDerevi, Empyrial TacticianGWU, RDaretti, Scrap SavantR, UTalrand, Sky SummonerU, GEzuri, Renegade LeaderG, WUBRGReaper KingWUBRG, RGXenagos, God of RevelsRG, CKozilek, Butcher of TruthC, WUBRGGeneral TazriWUBRG, GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
"There will be inevitable comparisons of this set to Chronicles, a much-maligned release from 1995 that flooded the market with reprints of highly sought-after cards from Magic's first few expansions. The outrage from collectors with regards to that set led to the creation of the Reserved List, and our hands are still tied from the effects of those compounded mistakes 17 years later.
Chronicles was brought up internally time and time again as Modern Masters evolved. Our R&D and Brand teams have spent many hours contemplating what Chronicles was trying to accomplish and where it went wrong. I ultimately feel that its biggest sin was that it did not respect people's existing collections—a sin we have no intention of repeating.
A glance at print run numbers available in the public domain shows that Chronicles likely increased the number of some cards in existence by a factor of ten or more! Cards that were rare and highly collectible were suddenly ubiquitous. The error was one of scale, and while I understand what the people working here at the time were trying to accomplish, in retrospect it was handled badly. Granted, they were adding their cards to what was then Type 2 (now Standard) and we are not, but I have to think there was a better way for them to solve the problem.
We won't make that mistake again. We don't want to turn cards from scarce to abundant in the blink of an eye, but we do want to alter the availability by a matter of degrees, all with the goal of growing the reach of the Modern format. Ideally, over time, any short-term drop in desirability of older cards you may own will be recouped as more players enter the format. I can't say it enough: our print run is very small, especially compared to what we're making for our current headliner sets like Return to Ravnica. We're playing in a very delicate space, and we know that, but the promise of the Modern format was that we would address card availability issues, and we are focused on figuring out the best way to do that.
If the set works and accomplishes what we want—more Modern players—we'll contemplate making another set like it some time down the road. But for now, our plan is to stick with our small printing and keep a close eye on what happens."
-The first bolded point is talking about them wanting to respect collectors. This is them stating that this isn't just a game, but a COLLECTIBLE game and that is something they want to respect. They want collections to remain valuable.
-Second bolded point says they didn't want to print a bunch. Experiment or no experiment they didn't want to print a bunch intentionally for all the other reasons, and that hasn't changed.
-The third bolded point about desirability dropping and being recouped reflects a desire that Wizards has to not change prices in the long run. Any drop in price they want to be temporary. As more players join modern, they want prices/desirability to go back to normal
-The underlined, bolded, italicized point is the key here. They are trying to deal with card availability not card affordability. While linked, these two are different. More than anything, it stresses their desire to increase quantity without a drastic change in price.
No one is arguing that they didn't only say they wanted to increase availability, but nothing you quoted shows that they don't want to decrease prices. They said they don't want to tank prices, but here's a huge difference. You only need to look at MM to see that they meant to impact prices, because overall it massively decreased prices (outside of a few outliers). They want it to be affordable, but they don't want to make collections worthless, which is partly what Chronicles did. What is affordable? That is up for debate. I'm mostly happy with card prices outside of Fetches, Bob, and Goyf. I have no problem with $50 cards that are iconic cards of the format, and probably ok with cards upwards of $80 for 'goyf and Bob. But no single card should be $170. It sends a bad message when it is a premier card for the format. In my perfect world, Bob, 'goyf, and Cryptic would be around $75-80, and fetches around $50.
Check out http://www.mtgbrodeals.com/author/john-murphy/ for my EDH articles!
"Ideally, any short-term drop is desirability of older cards you may own will be recouped once more players enter the format."
I wasn't talking about the prices short-term, I meant for the long term Wizards is perfectly happy with expensive modern cards once there are enough people in the format to sustain it.
http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/79013987240/is-a-direct-reprint-of-modern-masters-something-that
Cubetutor Peasant'ish-Funbox
Project: Khans of Tarkir Cube (cubetutor)
Wizards is careful not to feed to the hungry cartel troll. Consider putting Wasteland in Commander 2015. Casual, commander aficionados will never get close to the product at MSRP again.
Cartels will send their lackeys and scour every Walmart, Target and buy up all copies. Heck, they'll call the distributor to take everything in stock. This is what happened with Umezawa's Jitte in the precon Rat's Nest. This is what happened with True-Name Nemesis in Mind Seize (people taking the contents and filling in basic lands)
This move will be stupid. Wizards aren't very smart, but they sure won't do it with a legacy staple at the very least.
However, 3 of the 4 cards have been reprinted in the form of premium promos. Let's just say a promo FOW isn't out of order, but will be threading dangerous levels.
UR Melek, Izzet ParagonUR, B Shirei, Shizo's CaretakerB, R Jaya Ballard, Task MageR,RW Tajic, Blade of the LegionRW, UB Lazav, Dimir MastermindUB, UB Circu, Dimir LobotomistUB, RWU Zedruu the GreatheartedRWU, GUBThe MimeoplasmGUB, UGExperiment Kraj UG, WDarien, King of KjeldorW, BMarrow-GnawerB, WBGKarador, Ghost ChieftainWBG, UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU, GWUDerevi, Empyrial TacticianGWU, RDaretti, Scrap SavantR, UTalrand, Sky SummonerU, GEzuri, Renegade LeaderG, WUBRGReaper KingWUBRG, RGXenagos, God of RevelsRG, CKozilek, Butcher of TruthC, WUBRGGeneral TazriWUBRG, GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
A set with that many good cards inside would be opened until the demand for the rarest+most wanted top cards (Tarmogoyf) would be satisfied. By that time all the nice rares that are in the majority of packs would crash to filler junk prices.
The whole set doesn't need a reprint but many of the cards in it should see another printing. A future set like Modern Masters 2 could well have some repeats.
Taking your argument to its extreme, a mass reprinting to the point that supply far exceeds demand would in fact make this equal Chronicles. At a certain point the prices of cards will not rebound to their Pre-MM prices if you just keep printing and printing. I agree that prices need to be stables (complete stability is impossible due to metagame), but to do so the amount reprinted needs to be controlled. Lastly, your argument that original printing retain value is also likely untrue if MM overpriced (see Ayesha Tanaka.
Again, I agree some cards need a reprint (Bob and Goyf), but the entire set most certainly does not. Why tank the value of cards like Kataki or Life from the Loam any more?
Check out http://www.mtgbrodeals.com/author/john-murphy/ for my EDH articles!
Name 5 rares that need a reprinting. Name 4 Mythics. I'll give you Clique even if I disagree.
Check out http://www.mtgbrodeals.com/author/john-murphy/ for my EDH articles!