I'm probably going to sound like a naive idealist, but in my opinion you should be able to build any modern deck (or even legacy if there was no reserve list) for $200-$300 tops (on the high end). I love to play and I take the formats very seriously, but I live on a tight budget and spending $1000+ on any format is something I simply will never likely be able to do. Just because I can't afford it doesn't mean I don't want to play and take it seriously. WOTC please lower the entry barrier for players like me
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~A golden helix streaked skyward from the Helvault. A thunderous explosion shattered the silver monolith and Avacyn emerged, free from her prison at last.~
I'm probably going to sound like a naive idealist, but in my opinion you should be able to build any modern deck (or even legacy if there was no reserve list) for $200-$300 tops (on the high end). I love to play and I take the formats very seriously, but I live on a tight budget and spending $1000+ on any format is something I simply will never likely be able to do. Just because I can't afford it doesn't mean I don't want to play and take it seriously. WOTC please lower the entry barrier for players like me
Granted, I do not think this is realistic, but I do agree with this this post. I think people should come to their senses and realize that spending over $1,000 on a deck is insanity.
The only problem I have with that statement is the any deck part. Modern merfolk is in the 200-300 dollar range. To ask that Magic SIMPLY become a game and have no collectibility is unfair. If every deck cost 200-300 dollars then that is people being greedy and wanting to play every deck, which was my point exactly about the fickle types that aren't healthy for modern in the first place. If your issue is being hamstrung by fetchlands to 2-3 decks that is fine, but it isn't fair for someone to want to play every deck for a cheap entry price in my opinion.
200-300 dollar decks seems ok to me. Back in the lorwyn-timespiral era, Doran Rock deck was the most expensive at 200-300 dollar range. I don't see the problem why people cannot play multiple $300 decks. If a player spends that amount on 3 decks, it still amounts to approximately $1000.
Why must one get the mentality that to play the best deck you have to fork out the most money? I think people are fine with a little price disparity, but not a gap which is far beyond reach. There's also deck diversification/variety. Sometimes, people want to play competitive lists in a casual environment. Why must one pay such a premium in order to do so? We need to understand that casual players far outweigh the number of competitive players.
Every player wants to achieve something, be it playing their favorite cards or simply winning. Any parent would want their kid to do well. If anyone here is a parent, would you fork out $1000 for your kid who just wants to play FNM? As a kid back then, has anyone even played with a $1000 deck?
I mean, Magic is not golf, where there aren't golf courses everywhere. You need clubs, membership, gloves, shoes, maybe even a caddy. For magic, we just need a deck. And a few like-minded friends who own something of equivalent level. Has deckboxes and sleeves gone up with time? Sure, but the increase don't tally percentage-wise with cards. Compare that to your shoes, clubs, and yes, your caddy. You just wanna hit some freaking balls!!! Shouldn't we agree that the cost of Magic has spiralled out of control???
Magic mirrors what happens in our (capitalist) societies: a growing group of people with little to no money and a very small group of wealthy people. This translates into M:tG.
Feel free to call my statements stupid again.
Hardly.
That's an astute observation that I have made myself
It seems like most economies develop in a similar way,
unfortunately.
Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
Melek, Izzet Paragon
Oona, Queen of the Fae
Bruna, Light of Alabaster
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Rhys the Redeemed
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Sen Triplets
The Mimeoplasm WUBRGSliver OverlordGRBUW WUBRGSliver Hivelord(Superfriends)GRBUW
I really don't think this is a case of the 1% and the 99% at all. People who have expensive collections of magic cards are not necessarily rich, they are just people who value Magic to the point where they are willing to spend large sums of money on their cards. If you are the type who doesn't really think they can afford decks over $100, imagine if you did finally bite the bullet, sell your car for a crappier one, and bought a modern deck for $2000. Then, the next day, Wizards reprints everything and your cards are suddenly worth $300-$400. You, as one of the have-nots, would be especially frustrated because your investment in those Magic cards was so much more relevant than someone who is a millionaire who plays Magic.
Same thing with the stock market. While rich people took a hit from the stock market during the recession, it was the middle class who relied on investments for their retirement who got screwed the most.
When you talk about reprints, you are screwing over the people who did invest in those cards for collections/playing/etc.
Again, let me point out, I am totally in favor of reprinting fetchlands even though it would lose me $1200 overnight. However, asking for every expensive card in a format to be reprinted so you can afford it, to use real world analogies, is a form of socialism. Asking something with a limited supply to be increased to the point where everyone can afford it is ridiculous and doesn't work. Fetchlands are like plumbing, a relative necessity and should not be so expensive that people can't afford them. Cryptic Command, Tarmogoyf, Dark Confidant, Lili...these are like BMW's. Everyone shouldn't be able to have one just because they want one.
I really don't think this is a case of the 1% and the 99% at all. People who have expensive collections of magic cards are not necessarily rich, they are just people who value Magic to the point where they are willing to spend large sums of money on their cards. If you are the type who doesn't really think they can afford decks over $100, imagine if you did finally bite the bullet, sell your car for a crappier one, and bought a modern deck for $2000. Then, the next day, Wizards reprints everything and your cards are suddenly worth $300-$400. You, as one of the have-nots, would be especially frustrated because your investment in those Magic cards was so much more relevant than someone who is a millionaire who plays Magic.
Same thing with the stock market. While rich people took a hit from the stock market during the recession, it was the middle class who relied on investments for their retirement who got screwed the most.
When you talk about reprints, you are screwing over the people who did invest in those cards for collections/playing/etc.
Again, let me point out, I am totally in favor of reprinting fetchlands even though it would lose me $1200 overnight. However, asking for every expensive card in a format to be reprinted so you can afford it, to use real world analogies, is a form of socialism. Asking something with a limited supply to be increased to the point where everyone can afford it is ridiculous and doesn't work. Fetchlands are like plumbing, a relative necessity and should not be so expensive that people can't afford them. Cryptic Command, Tarmogoyf, Dark Confidant, Lili...these are like BMW's. Everyone shouldn't be able to have one just because they want one.
You have a good point, but I think there is an argument to be made about the need to consider the health of the format over the investments of a lesser majority.
The issue here lies in do you protect those who've invested in the game or do you protect the larger growth of the game and format. I think from Wizards point of view and the players view as well the focus should remain on a healthy format, one that is both flexible and accessible. However, many people play magic on the financial side and I feel that those players are also important to the overall health of the game, though others may disagree. MTG players who are financially focused add an important amount of depth to both game and community.
With this in mind, we obviously need to see reprints of high demand, high value staples (fetchlands for example are now at the point where they need to be printed in the next 12 months) but we can compromise by still having cards which do hold value, which do rise and fall. We don't need MTG reprints to be like those of other card games, staples do not need to be reprinted over and over until they are just cheap rares with saturated supply.
People of course also need to remember that when we think about the MTG economy we need to keep in mind that when demand for a resource in this case fetchlands, or goyf or bob is at such a height supply needs to eventually compensate by increasing. Players are naive to think that staples they have invested in are safe for long periods, especially with steep rises like we've seen for modern. Modern being a format Wizards is trying to foster so closely must be realized as a format in which staples will see reprints when prices get out of hand to keep the format accessible. A smart investor at this point sells excess fetches now for example as with their current trajectory Wizards are forced to act and bring supply back up.
I think at the end of the day, we do need reprints for the overall health of both the modern format and gaming community as a whole. Players who have invested money into staples I don't think have a right to expect that their cards won't be reprinted because of their value either because unless you're investing in the reserve list there should be an expectation that staples for a given format are reprinted. Players investing money in MTG need to act as investors and trade excess staples when they see high rises, especially when those cards are seeing unsustainable price increases like goyf and fetchlands.
Also keep in mind that a lot of people that do invest in standard decks are die-hard players using store credit and tourney-won product to fuel their collections, not actually spending hundreds and hundreds of dollars on Standard stuff. A lot of people in my area trade or win into what they need, and use large store credit reserves to pick up boxes of new product when it hits, to do it all again in the next block.
Also keep in mind that a lot of people that do invest in standard decks are die-hard players using store credit and tourney-won product to fuel their collections, not actually spending hundreds and hundreds of dollars on Standard stuff. A lot of people in my area trade or win into what they need, and use large store credit reserves to pick up boxes of new product when it hits, to do it all again in the next block.
We don't have something here...we only have the FNM Promos, Game Day Playmats and maybe an occasional booster or two. But our LGS is not the biggest, we only have about 50 people attending each week.
50 people show up to your FNM, and you don't even get prize?
Again, let me point out, I am totally in favor of reprinting fetchlands even though it would lose me $1200 overnight. However, asking for every expensive card in a format to be reprinted so you can afford it, to use real world analogies, is a form of socialism.
I find it rather odd that wanting a company to produce a product you want to buy is somehow socialism.
Asking something with a limited supply to be increased to the point where everyone can afford it is ridiculous and doesn't work. Fetchlands are like plumbing, a relative necessity and should not be so expensive that people can't afford them. Cryptic Command, Tarmogoyf, Dark Confidant, Lili...these are like BMW's. Everyone shouldn't be able to have one just because they want one.
Except the reason that BMW's are expensive is not at all the reason why Cryptic Command/Tarmogoyf/Dark Confidant are expensive.
I'm sure fetchland reprints are on the horizon, but I really don't have much sympathy for people that were playing during Zendikar had a full set of ZEN fetchlands but dumped them because they were purely standard players.
I have been busting my ass with trades and bought a few when Zen fetches were cheaper to get my playset of each Zen fetch. This process has taken place over the past 2 years and just completed my playset of each a few months ago. I think we will see the same complaints about shocklands in 3 years time, where shocklands are spiking up to the 30 mid price and really annoying people. Remember folks, Zendikar was a HUGELY successful set for its time. WotC was announcing from the rooftops how well Zendikar was selling when it first hit the street, maybe 3-4 years from now RTR is considered a decently popular set but whatever the new block is at the time will vastly outsell it.
I also don't see much problem with Tarmogoyf and Dark Confidant's price tag Confidant sees more play in Legacy than it does in Modern. Tarmogoyf really only has a handful of decks the card is even viable in at all. You don't need either card to compete with Modern it just restricts your deck choice, somewhat.
There are fair points on both sides, but I think that the bottom line is that individual card prices (should) have at least a relative cap (adjusted for inflation if needed). Arguably, no single card, with the exception of those on the reserve list, should top $100, and most should be well below that. It's nice to think that the random rare you bought for a dollar could one day be valued at several times it's original worth, but it's also asking a bit much to expect to sell cards for what some are going for currently.
This is all the more apparent, when one stops to consider this: who are the people so enamored of keeping certain cards' value at very high levels? Is it mostly the people who bought their (for example) 'goyf for $170 last week, or those who were a part of the game when it was available for $20? While the answer is likely both, I suspect that many of the most vocal are in the latter group. Unfortunately on both sides of the argument it is likely that those who protest do so in the name of their own personal gain.
I honestly believe that there should be a cap on the prices of cards other than the reserve list, and that WOTC should reprint cards as needed to bring prices to those levels (be it through supplementary products, core sets, etc). Heck, they could even have a singles store, and when needed run temporary reprints of said card(s) until secondary market prices normalize. The price caps could be made public knowledge, thus that no one would buy above that level (because they know they can get what they want for that price elsewhere).
With a reasonable cap (numbers for example: $50 for most, $75 for the absolute elite), cards will still be worth plenty of value, and will still be collectible. People would still want to pull that $30 chase rare from a pack, or trade for their competitive decks, but those who want to buy their way into modern would be able to reasonably well....And face it, if you paid $200 for a card that can be reprinted, and expect to make a long-term profit from it (or even not have it drop), then you are deluding yourself. The best part is that if modern decks change so rarely, people can spend a finite amount and then make only small, affordable tweaks on occasion as needed.
At the end of the day there is no reason that WOTC cannot have modern be accessible and yet protect collectors' reasonable investments. The reserve list and legacy can still serve all of the true high-value, elitist collectors' needs, with card values that can increase without bounds.
TL;DR - both sides of the, "cost of modern", argument are partially right. There should be a middle ground with cards that are valuable, yet not inaccessible for the average-income player.
I also don't see much problem with Tarmogoyf and Dark Confidant's price tag Confidant sees more play in Legacy than it does in standard.
... wait what?
Fixed meant modern obviously...
@Comment above
The reason these cards fetch these prices though is because people are paying them, if Stores were selling 0 Tarmogoyfs at 150+ bucks they would lower the price period. We already have a self-adjusting system, that is why prices fluctuate and don't just go up and up and never drop, for instance look at Jace, the Mind Sculptor he is at almost an all-time low in price lately. Just because Tarmo is at an all time high doesn't mean the card will only be worth more and more as the years go by.
I think reprinting the fetchlands in the next block would be a huge step forward, because there are quite a few decks that only have fetchlands as their really expensive cards. Just before RTR we were facing shocklands hitting record highs, and low and behold RTR block brought all 10 back. Then they reprint the most expensive discard spell ever in Theros, follow that up with a remand reprint in the Jace vs. Vraska deck. I mean really Wizards is working on the problem of reprints, and are increasing card availability without doing something silly like making a set with every expensive modern card and making 60 million booster boxes of it at $3.99 each MSRP.
I just bought 3 Thoughtseizes before Theros came out for my Jund deck (along with Confidants+Goyfs), and I wasn't that upset about the thoughtseize reprint. I knew there was a risk purchasing a card like that. Thoughtseize while powerful is perfectly fine for quite a few standard formats.
I also don't see much problem with Tarmogoyf and Dark Confidant's price tag Confidant sees more play in Legacy than it does in standard.
... wait what?
@Comment above
The reason these cards fetch these prices though is because people are paying them, if Stores were selling 0 Tarmogoyfs at 150+ bucks they would lower the price period. We already have a self-adjusting system, that is why prices fluctuate and don't just go up and up and never drop, for instance look at Jace, the Mind Sculptor he is at almost an all-time low in price lately. Just because Tarmo is at an all time high doesn't mean the card will only be worth more and more as the years go by.
Yes, people are buying them, and the market DOES have the potential to reverse. At some point, the price of a card will be to high to be practical, and people will stop buying, causing the price to go down. However, what I am potentially advocating is not a self-regulating market, but an artificially regulated market (by WOTC) for the benefit of the game and format as a whole. Correctly done, reprints have the potential to artificially keep prices within a certain boundry (and I am arguing that this should be done to some degree). I am not sure if I believe this or not, but I think it DOES strike a nice balance between the two ideologies of: 1. Make all cards cheap so we can all play; 2. Keep prices high to protect my investment on the game.
Sure, high-priced cards will eventually hit a peak, and possibly decline on their own. However, at what price point? Will it be at a level that allows a large number of players, potentially providing an active and vibrant format? Or, will it be at a price point that only the 1% of elite magic players will buy in, keeping modern a format much more....well, limited?
All of this really depends on what WOTC intends modern to really be, and how accessible they want it compared to standard. I just think they should shoot for the middle-ground in terms of cost vs. accessibility.
(As an aside, it's great you were comfortable taking a hit on your thoughtseizes. I just have a feeling that many of the vocal advocates of keeping high prices are those that did not actually pay high prices for their "investments".)
MM1 was an experiment in many ways too, to gauge how a product like this would affect the market, how sales would be like, the reaction from players and collectors alike, etc etc.
Now that they got that data, they can work on MM2 and aim to release it in a much more "appropriate" way, probably a larger print run for the same prices. In most ways, MM1 was a good success, one that Wizards would likely want to capitalize upon.
As for reprinting Modern staples in Standard - not all Modern staples will be fitting in Standard. Take the newly unbanned Bitterblossom for example, it just can't work in Standard by virtue of it being a TRIBAL enchantment. Then there's cards like Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker who is tied to Kamigawa. Stuff like Kitchen Finks that requires the block to work with specific mechanics and hybrid mana. And then there's the stuff that's just too powerful in Standard. Thoughtseize is already a hated card for what it does for Mono-Black. Mutavault is an all-star. Can you imagine the carnage that'd follow in Dark Confidant's wake? They can release specific cards in the Standard legal sets, they can release another package in the Commander/other side-product, but in the end, there's a desire for MM-like product.
i think they can just release cards like Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker and Kitchen Finks on core sets, since core set is not themed, and it can help to up sales for core set
Wizards print good rares, players complain about cash grab. They print underwhelming rares, players complain that the cards suck. They spoil the best cards first, players complain about the insane prices of preorders. They spoil the meh cards first, players complain that this is the worst set ever.
So. I think I understand now.
As far as these forums are concerned, WotC can never do anything good because:
Card that is new and probably good = "pushed"
Card that is new and probably bad = "EDH/casual fodder"
Card that is a reprint = "lazy"
Card that is a better version of an older card = "power creep"
Card that is a weaker version of an older card = "worthless"
Lol at self-adjusting system... The only adjustments I see is 1) high, or 2) higher.
Jace is a poor example of self adjustments/stabilty because... he's banned. Also, he's reprinted in FTV. Kokusho would be a much better example.
Anyone knows what they'll get when they purchase a set of FTV:20. No one knows what they'll get when opening a pack of MM, or even a box. Take the fact that MM was poorly distributed, underprinted (I'm not expecting like a normal print print of course but maybe it should be), and overcosted. Did I also forget that it's efficiently hoarded???
Put all these 3 4 factors in and voila! We just got a product that excludes the majority. #backtosquareone
I'm not even accounting for the newly mythic status for some of these cards (which makes them harder to acquire), and the new arts (making cards more desirable).
MM did not exclude a majority from purchasing packs. It excluded a very vocal minority of idiots who complain because the can't afford the cards for their hobby. And those people were not the target for thos product, so they are likely to be largely ignored when it comes to future Masters products.
i think they can just release cards like Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker and Kitchen Finks on core sets, since core set is not themed, and it can help to up sales for core set
While the sentiment about core sets is true, they aren't likely to want to just add a random Legendary to the product, because it'd feel off. They'd want a cycle of them. Fortunately Kiki-Jiki falls within a very recognizable tribe, unfortunately he does something rather specific that isn't very common for goblins and has very specific design that doesn't fit anywhere but in Kamigawa. Kitchen Finks, in the meantime, uses Hybrid Mana, which I doubt we'll see in the coreset anytime soon.
Cards do have to fit within the set, else they can't print them. Design philosophy and all that.
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My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
MM did not exclude a majority from purchasing packs. It excluded a very vocal minority of idiots who complain because the can't afford the cards for their hobby. And those people were not the target for thos product, so they are likely to be largely ignored when it comes to future Masters products.
I'm sorry but a person isn't an idiot for not being able to afford the cards for their hobby. And as a hobby/game people will complain that something is out of their price range. The store I go to had 30ish boxes allotted to them and they sold them at a 25% markup on a first come first serve basis. I'm sorry I'm an idiot for not taking the day off of work to try and go buy the product? I didn't see a pack individually sold of MM until I was on a trip in Victoria Canada and bought a pack. Nothing great about the pack and there was still a bunch of chaff. I would buy the product randomly if it was available, but It wasn't. The supply was to small and didn't come close to meeting the markets needs. I think the target of the product was to get new players to join Modern and I think that did happen. But Wizards missed out by under printing it. I would also say that it is a bit bigger minority than you think but I laugh at the idea that a person is an idiot for not buying MTG cards.
People aren't idiots for not being able to afford their hobby, people are idiots if they think MM was anything but a huge success. It did exactly what it was designed to do. It drastically lowered the barrier for entry into the format while also selling a lot of product. There were outliers, but that's all they were, outliers. Only Bob, Goyf, and Vial didn't see a drop in price, and every other non-mythic dropped over 30%. Most rares dropped over 50%.
I'm sorry this product didn't do what you wanted (make Modern affordable for you), but anyone who thinks the product failed or didn't do exactly what was intended is an idiot.
What about the stores who are trying to make money off the game? The stores who run the tournaments. Should we say screw them too? Should we tank the value of their cards so they can't stay open to provide the opportunity to play? If cards are worth $1, how do they make money?
How many people are willing to pay $30 for a sideboard card in Modern, or $800 worth of fetchlands for a deck, versus how much more people would pay $6.99 for a Modern Masters booster knowing what is in this set?
Where did you pay 6.99 for your Modern Masters boosters!?
I totally agree with you that MM was a success and said so before. I was saying that it could/should have been bigger and been even more of a success. I loved it for the EDH cards that dropped dramatically and have stayed down. Even if the product was for people getting into Modern it had a nice effect for EDH as well and so maybe the product was for more people than you thought But I wouldn't say that the product got to everyone that would have liked to get into the format. I see more of FTV product at my store than the MM packs.
You sure do like the word idiot. Re-read your post and then mine. The first comment I posted on " It excluded a very vocal minority of idiots who complain because the can't afford the cards for their hobby" And then you retract your statement about calling them idiots but move it to people who didn't think it was a success. You should probably just avoid trying to call names. It's pointless. I did agree that MM was a success but thought it could/should have been an even bigger success by making the print run bigger to make it even more available.
What about the stores who are trying to make money off the game? The stores who run the tournaments. Should we say screw them too? Should we tank the value of their cards so they can't stay open to provide the opportunity to play? If cards are worth $1, how do they make money?
How many people are willing to pay $30 for a sideboard card in Modern, or $800 worth of fetchlands for a deck, versus how much more people would pay $6.99 for a Modern Masters booster knowing what is in this set?
Where did you pay 6.99 for your Modern Masters boosters!?
For a short while, you can find them at big box stores. $6.99 is the MSRP. Unfortunately, due to the limited print run, it's hard to find any now unless you're going online.
Granted, I do not think this is realistic, but I do agree with this this post. I think people should come to their senses and realize that spending over $1,000 on a deck is insanity.
Why must one get the mentality that to play the best deck you have to fork out the most money? I think people are fine with a little price disparity, but not a gap which is far beyond reach. There's also deck diversification/variety. Sometimes, people want to play competitive lists in a casual environment. Why must one pay such a premium in order to do so? We need to understand that casual players far outweigh the number of competitive players.
Every player wants to achieve something, be it playing their favorite cards or simply winning. Any parent would want their kid to do well. If anyone here is a parent, would you fork out $1000 for your kid who just wants to play FNM? As a kid back then, has anyone even played with a $1000 deck?
I mean, Magic is not golf, where there aren't golf courses everywhere. You need clubs, membership, gloves, shoes, maybe even a caddy. For magic, we just need a deck. And a few like-minded friends who own something of equivalent level. Has deckboxes and sleeves gone up with time? Sure, but the increase don't tally percentage-wise with cards. Compare that to your shoes, clubs, and yes, your caddy. You just wanna hit some freaking balls!!! Shouldn't we agree that the cost of Magic has spiralled out of control???
UR Melek, Izzet ParagonUR, B Shirei, Shizo's CaretakerB, R Jaya Ballard, Task MageR,RW Tajic, Blade of the LegionRW, UB Lazav, Dimir MastermindUB, UB Circu, Dimir LobotomistUB, RWU Zedruu the GreatheartedRWU, GUBThe MimeoplasmGUB, UGExperiment Kraj UG, WDarien, King of KjeldorW, BMarrow-GnawerB, WBGKarador, Ghost ChieftainWBG, UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU, GWUDerevi, Empyrial TacticianGWU, RDaretti, Scrap SavantR, UTalrand, Sky SummonerU, GEzuri, Renegade LeaderG, WUBRGReaper KingWUBRG, RGXenagos, God of RevelsRG, CKozilek, Butcher of TruthC, WUBRGGeneral TazriWUBRG, GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
Hardly.
That's an astute observation that I have made myself
It seems like most economies develop in a similar way,
unfortunately.
Reprint Stasis!
Control needs more love.
EDH:
Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
Melek, Izzet Paragon
Oona, Queen of the Fae
Bruna, Light of Alabaster
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Rhys the Redeemed
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Sen Triplets
The Mimeoplasm
WUBRGSliver OverlordGRBUW
WUBRGSliver Hivelord(Superfriends)GRBUW
Same thing with the stock market. While rich people took a hit from the stock market during the recession, it was the middle class who relied on investments for their retirement who got screwed the most.
When you talk about reprints, you are screwing over the people who did invest in those cards for collections/playing/etc.
Again, let me point out, I am totally in favor of reprinting fetchlands even though it would lose me $1200 overnight. However, asking for every expensive card in a format to be reprinted so you can afford it, to use real world analogies, is a form of socialism. Asking something with a limited supply to be increased to the point where everyone can afford it is ridiculous and doesn't work. Fetchlands are like plumbing, a relative necessity and should not be so expensive that people can't afford them. Cryptic Command, Tarmogoyf, Dark Confidant, Lili...these are like BMW's. Everyone shouldn't be able to have one just because they want one.
You have a good point, but I think there is an argument to be made about the need to consider the health of the format over the investments of a lesser majority.
The issue here lies in do you protect those who've invested in the game or do you protect the larger growth of the game and format. I think from Wizards point of view and the players view as well the focus should remain on a healthy format, one that is both flexible and accessible. However, many people play magic on the financial side and I feel that those players are also important to the overall health of the game, though others may disagree. MTG players who are financially focused add an important amount of depth to both game and community.
With this in mind, we obviously need to see reprints of high demand, high value staples (fetchlands for example are now at the point where they need to be printed in the next 12 months) but we can compromise by still having cards which do hold value, which do rise and fall. We don't need MTG reprints to be like those of other card games, staples do not need to be reprinted over and over until they are just cheap rares with saturated supply.
People of course also need to remember that when we think about the MTG economy we need to keep in mind that when demand for a resource in this case fetchlands, or goyf or bob is at such a height supply needs to eventually compensate by increasing. Players are naive to think that staples they have invested in are safe for long periods, especially with steep rises like we've seen for modern. Modern being a format Wizards is trying to foster so closely must be realized as a format in which staples will see reprints when prices get out of hand to keep the format accessible. A smart investor at this point sells excess fetches now for example as with their current trajectory Wizards are forced to act and bring supply back up.
I think at the end of the day, we do need reprints for the overall health of both the modern format and gaming community as a whole. Players who have invested money into staples I don't think have a right to expect that their cards won't be reprinted because of their value either because unless you're investing in the reserve list there should be an expectation that staples for a given format are reprinted. Players investing money in MTG need to act as investors and trade excess staples when they see high rises, especially when those cards are seeing unsustainable price increases like goyf and fetchlands.
50 people show up to your FNM, and you don't even get prize?
I find it rather odd that wanting a company to produce a product you want to buy is somehow socialism.
Except the reason that BMW's are expensive is not at all the reason why Cryptic Command/Tarmogoyf/Dark Confidant are expensive.
I have been busting my ass with trades and bought a few when Zen fetches were cheaper to get my playset of each Zen fetch. This process has taken place over the past 2 years and just completed my playset of each a few months ago. I think we will see the same complaints about shocklands in 3 years time, where shocklands are spiking up to the 30 mid price and really annoying people. Remember folks, Zendikar was a HUGELY successful set for its time. WotC was announcing from the rooftops how well Zendikar was selling when it first hit the street, maybe 3-4 years from now RTR is considered a decently popular set but whatever the new block is at the time will vastly outsell it.
I also don't see much problem with Tarmogoyf and Dark Confidant's price tag Confidant sees more play in Legacy than it does in Modern. Tarmogoyf really only has a handful of decks the card is even viable in at all. You don't need either card to compete with Modern it just restricts your deck choice, somewhat.
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This is all the more apparent, when one stops to consider this: who are the people so enamored of keeping certain cards' value at very high levels? Is it mostly the people who bought their (for example) 'goyf for $170 last week, or those who were a part of the game when it was available for $20? While the answer is likely both, I suspect that many of the most vocal are in the latter group. Unfortunately on both sides of the argument it is likely that those who protest do so in the name of their own personal gain.
I honestly believe that there should be a cap on the prices of cards other than the reserve list, and that WOTC should reprint cards as needed to bring prices to those levels (be it through supplementary products, core sets, etc). Heck, they could even have a singles store, and when needed run temporary reprints of said card(s) until secondary market prices normalize. The price caps could be made public knowledge, thus that no one would buy above that level (because they know they can get what they want for that price elsewhere).
With a reasonable cap (numbers for example: $50 for most, $75 for the absolute elite), cards will still be worth plenty of value, and will still be collectible. People would still want to pull that $30 chase rare from a pack, or trade for their competitive decks, but those who want to buy their way into modern would be able to reasonably well....And face it, if you paid $200 for a card that can be reprinted, and expect to make a long-term profit from it (or even not have it drop), then you are deluding yourself. The best part is that if modern decks change so rarely, people can spend a finite amount and then make only small, affordable tweaks on occasion as needed.
At the end of the day there is no reason that WOTC cannot have modern be accessible and yet protect collectors' reasonable investments. The reserve list and legacy can still serve all of the true high-value, elitist collectors' needs, with card values that can increase without bounds.
TL;DR - both sides of the, "cost of modern", argument are partially right. There should be a middle ground with cards that are valuable, yet not inaccessible for the average-income player.
Fixed meant modern obviously...
@Comment above
The reason these cards fetch these prices though is because people are paying them, if Stores were selling 0 Tarmogoyfs at 150+ bucks they would lower the price period. We already have a self-adjusting system, that is why prices fluctuate and don't just go up and up and never drop, for instance look at Jace, the Mind Sculptor he is at almost an all-time low in price lately. Just because Tarmo is at an all time high doesn't mean the card will only be worth more and more as the years go by.
I think reprinting the fetchlands in the next block would be a huge step forward, because there are quite a few decks that only have fetchlands as their really expensive cards. Just before RTR we were facing shocklands hitting record highs, and low and behold RTR block brought all 10 back. Then they reprint the most expensive discard spell ever in Theros, follow that up with a remand reprint in the Jace vs. Vraska deck. I mean really Wizards is working on the problem of reprints, and are increasing card availability without doing something silly like making a set with every expensive modern card and making 60 million booster boxes of it at $3.99 each MSRP.
I just bought 3 Thoughtseizes before Theros came out for my Jund deck (along with Confidants+Goyfs), and I wasn't that upset about the thoughtseize reprint. I knew there was a risk purchasing a card like that. Thoughtseize while powerful is perfectly fine for quite a few standard formats.
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Yes, people are buying them, and the market DOES have the potential to reverse. At some point, the price of a card will be to high to be practical, and people will stop buying, causing the price to go down. However, what I am potentially advocating is not a self-regulating market, but an artificially regulated market (by WOTC) for the benefit of the game and format as a whole. Correctly done, reprints have the potential to artificially keep prices within a certain boundry (and I am arguing that this should be done to some degree). I am not sure if I believe this or not, but I think it DOES strike a nice balance between the two ideologies of: 1. Make all cards cheap so we can all play; 2. Keep prices high to protect my investment on the game.
Sure, high-priced cards will eventually hit a peak, and possibly decline on their own. However, at what price point? Will it be at a level that allows a large number of players, potentially providing an active and vibrant format? Or, will it be at a price point that only the 1% of elite magic players will buy in, keeping modern a format much more....well, limited?
All of this really depends on what WOTC intends modern to really be, and how accessible they want it compared to standard. I just think they should shoot for the middle-ground in terms of cost vs. accessibility.
(As an aside, it's great you were comfortable taking a hit on your thoughtseizes. I just have a feeling that many of the vocal advocates of keeping high prices are those that did not actually pay high prices for their "investments".)
i think they can just release cards like Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker and Kitchen Finks on core sets, since core set is not themed, and it can help to up sales for core set
Jace is a poor example of self adjustments/stabilty because... he's banned. Also, he's reprinted in FTV. Kokusho would be a much better example.
Anyone knows what they'll get when they purchase a set of FTV:20. No one knows what they'll get when opening a pack of MM, or even a box. Take the fact that MM was poorly distributed, underprinted (I'm not expecting like a normal print print of course but maybe it should be), and overcosted. Did I also forget that it's efficiently hoarded???
Put all these
34 factors in and voila! We just got a product that excludes the majority. #backtosquareoneI'm not even accounting for the newly mythic status for some of these cards (which makes them harder to acquire), and the new arts (making cards more desirable).
UR Melek, Izzet ParagonUR, B Shirei, Shizo's CaretakerB, R Jaya Ballard, Task MageR,RW Tajic, Blade of the LegionRW, UB Lazav, Dimir MastermindUB, UB Circu, Dimir LobotomistUB, RWU Zedruu the GreatheartedRWU, GUBThe MimeoplasmGUB, UGExperiment Kraj UG, WDarien, King of KjeldorW, BMarrow-GnawerB, WBGKarador, Ghost ChieftainWBG, UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU, GWUDerevi, Empyrial TacticianGWU, RDaretti, Scrap SavantR, UTalrand, Sky SummonerU, GEzuri, Renegade LeaderG, WUBRGReaper KingWUBRG, RGXenagos, God of RevelsRG, CKozilek, Butcher of TruthC, WUBRGGeneral TazriWUBRG, GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
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While the sentiment about core sets is true, they aren't likely to want to just add a random Legendary to the product, because it'd feel off. They'd want a cycle of them. Fortunately Kiki-Jiki falls within a very recognizable tribe, unfortunately he does something rather specific that isn't very common for goblins and has very specific design that doesn't fit anywhere but in Kamigawa. Kitchen Finks, in the meantime, uses Hybrid Mana, which I doubt we'll see in the coreset anytime soon.
Cards do have to fit within the set, else they can't print them. Design philosophy and all that.
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
I'm sorry but a person isn't an idiot for not being able to afford the cards for their hobby. And as a hobby/game people will complain that something is out of their price range. The store I go to had 30ish boxes allotted to them and they sold them at a 25% markup on a first come first serve basis. I'm sorry I'm an idiot for not taking the day off of work to try and go buy the product? I didn't see a pack individually sold of MM until I was on a trip in Victoria Canada and bought a pack. Nothing great about the pack and there was still a bunch of chaff. I would buy the product randomly if it was available, but It wasn't. The supply was to small and didn't come close to meeting the markets needs. I think the target of the product was to get new players to join Modern and I think that did happen. But Wizards missed out by under printing it. I would also say that it is a bit bigger minority than you think but I laugh at the idea that a person is an idiot for not buying MTG cards.
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/trading-post/details/360-bitterblossom-and-mistbind-clique-looking-to-trade
I'm sorry this product didn't do what you wanted (make Modern affordable for you), but anyone who thinks the product failed or didn't do exactly what was intended is an idiot.
Check out http://www.mtgbrodeals.com/author/john-murphy/ for my EDH articles!
Where did you pay 6.99 for your Modern Masters boosters!?
You sure do like the word idiot. Re-read your post and then mine. The first comment I posted on " It excluded a very vocal minority of idiots who complain because the can't afford the cards for their hobby" And then you retract your statement about calling them idiots but move it to people who didn't think it was a success. You should probably just avoid trying to call names. It's pointless. I did agree that MM was a success but thought it could/should have been an even bigger success by making the print run bigger to make it even more available.
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/trading-post/details/360-bitterblossom-and-mistbind-clique-looking-to-trade
For a short while, you can find them at big box stores. $6.99 is the MSRP. Unfortunately, due to the limited print run, it's hard to find any now unless you're going online.