Besides that, even the mention of Worldgorger Dragon makes me cringe. If there's a single card I hate, it's that card. The restrictions it caused in Vintage back in the day made me quit and cash out. Granted, I'm back now... but yeah.
Truth be told, Worldgorger Dragon is actually a fairly unimpressive combo. First you have to get it into your graveyard, then you have to reanimate it with a particular spell; Reanimate won't do it, it has to be one of the enchantment reanimations. Then you have to have something to dump all that mana into it. Sure seems a lot more needlessly complicated than dumping Griselbrand into the graveyard, reanimating him, and having a very high chance of victory without requiring another card to finish the combo with. I guess the Worldgorger Dragon combo gives you a higher chance of victory, as funneling infinite mana into something is a sure win compared to the probable win of Griselbrand, but it's also much more shaky in terms of execution. I don't see it as more powerful than your regular reanimator strategy--it might be worse, actually.
The real issue with the Worldgorger Dragon combo is that if you don't have the outlet for the mana, you can use the combo anyway to force a draw for a game, as it sets up an infinite loop that can only be escaped by having another target for Animate Dead, which is actually unlikely unless you're playing against Dredge or Reanimator. Thus you can use this technique to either stall out for time or to prevent your opponent from winning by forcing a draw.
Thread's huge at this point but in case anyone cares:
Block: No Changes
Apparently RG is ridiculous...but its just a collection of the best cards in the colors. Kind of like Jund in Modern. But BNG could shake things up...right? ........right???
Standard: No Changes
Don't really need to explain this.
Modern: Unban Sword of the Meek
Let's all be honest with ourselves: Control needs some help. UWR Wafo is the only real control deck in the format, and it hasn't even Top 8'd the last THREE GP's. Sword of the Meek could possibly help UWR, but it also opens up the option for Tezzeret or other artifact-based control decks. All the other archetypes in Modern are fine, just look at those three gp's I talked about. Aggro is fine, Ramp is fine, Tempo is fine, and Midrange and Combo rule the format.
Legacy: Ban Show and Tell
I don't really play legacy much, but I'm just baffled that this card is still legal. Just. Wow.
Vintage: Unrestrict Gifts Ungiven
I mean, Jace is just better. No one even plays their allowed singelton, so....
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Modern: Unban Sword of the Meek
Let's all be honest with ourselves: Control needs some help. UWR Wafo is the only real control deck in the format, and it hasn't even Top 8'd the last THREE GP's. Sword of the Meek could possibly help UWR, but it also opens up the option for Tezzeret or other artifact-based control decks. All the other archetypes in Modern are fine, just look at those three gp's I talked about. Aggro is fine, Ramp is fine, Tempo is fine, and Midrange and Combo rule the format.
In thinking about it, you might be right about this, the 2 cards are realetively unimpressive on their own, and together they require a lot of mana and no gy disruption. Additionally it requires infinite mana to become a real "combo". However, wizards doesn't want something that's difficult to interact with to be available no matter how much it benefits a particular strategy that we think needs help (although I'd be willing to take my control build to any ptq or gp around, I just work weekends). So it probably will not unban soon, but in the long run it may one day be unbanned, but others will likely come off before this.
First they came for seething song and I did not speak out because I was not a storm player. Then they came for deathrite shaman, and I did not speak out, because I was not a Jund player. Then they came for Snapcaster Mage, but I did not speak out, because I was not a U player. Then they came for my deck, and there was no one left to speak out for me. But screw eggs because no one liked that deck anyway.
Legacy: Ban Show and Tell
I don't really play legacy much, but I'm just baffled that this card is still legal. Just. Wow.
I believe it's still legal because it's a double-edged sword. Sure it gets out omniscience for an insta-uncounterable kill unless you counter SnT or destroy omniscience without your kill spell getting countered, but if that's the case, might as well ban omniscience instead. Sneak and show also uses SnT, but doesn't give an insta win the turn it comes down. Also, the opposing player can put down a permanent too, meaning that they can put a land and either Krosan grip omniscience the turn it comes down or deal with emrakul on the next turn. It also usually comes down on turn 3, giving you some time to prepare for it.
If SnT decks ever get too strong, the most likely ban may go to something that really strengthens the deck, for example Omniscience or Emrakul(althoughI highly doubt that Em will get banned)
EDIT: they might ban whatever makes the deck too consistent as well, maybe brainstorm will see a ban? It does give a lot of decks a lot of consistency in legacy without much risk...
Legacy: Ban Show and Tell
I don't really play legacy much, but I'm just baffled that this card is still legal. Just. Wow.
I believe you are baffled because you don't play legacy. Show and Tell just doesn't put up the numbers to be banned. That simple. People can try to argue how overpowered it is as much as they like, but at the end of the day, the numbers do not support it dominating legacy.
Legacy: Ban Show and Tell
I don't really play legacy much, but I'm just baffled that this card is still legal. Just. Wow.
Show and Tell does not deserve a ban. It's not dominating in any way, and while it's a powerful combo, it is not overpowered in the context of the format. Quite frankly, if anything should be banned in Legacy it's True-Name Nemesis. Not saying it necessarily should be banned; but it's the card most deserving of a ban.
Maybe you should play a format more before you start arguing what should be banned.
I believe it's still legal because it's a double-edged sword. Sure it gets out omniscience for an insta-uncounterable kill unless you counter SnT or destroy omniscience without your kill spell getting countered, but if that's the case, might as well ban omniscience instead. Sneak and show also uses SnT, but doesn't give an insta win the turn it comes down. Also, the opposing player can put down a permanent too, meaning that they can put a land and either Krosan grip omniscience the turn it comes down or deal with emrakul on the next turn. It also usually comes down on turn 3, giving you some time to prepare for it.
If SnT decks ever get too strong, the most likely ban may go to something that really strengthens the deck, for example Omniscience or Emrakul(althoughI highly doubt that Em will get banned)
EDIT: they might ban whatever makes the deck too consistent as well, maybe brainstorm will see a ban? It does give a lot of decks a lot of consistency in legacy without much risk...
Banning Brainstorm just to hit Show and Tell seems an awfully bad idea considering how many other decks it hits. Granted, a few people argue Brainstorm should be banned because of how much it's played, but that's a different argument.
And if Show and Tell does get out of hand, Show and Tell will be the one to get the ban. It's the enabler. They're clearly far more likely to print another Emrakul/Griselbrand than another Show and Tell. But again, the card does not, at present, deserve a banning any more than Splinter Twin deserves a ban in Modern.
Truth be told, Worldgorger Dragon is actually a fairly unimpressive combo. First you have to get it into your graveyard, then you have to reanimate it with a particular spell; Reanimate won't do it, it has to be one of the enchantment reanimations. Then you have to have something to dump all that mana into it. Sure seems a lot more needlessly complicated than dumping Griselbrand into the graveyard, reanimating him, and having a very high chance of victory without requiring another card to finish the combo with. I guess the Worldgorger Dragon combo gives you a higher chance of victory, as funneling infinite mana into something is a sure win compared to the probable win of Griselbrand, but it's also much more shaky in terms of execution. I don't see it as more powerful than your regular reanimator strategy--it might be worse, actually.
The real issue with the Worldgorger Dragon combo is that if you don't have the outlet for the mana, you can use the combo anyway to force a draw for a game, as it sets up an infinite loop that can only be escaped by having another target for Animate Dead, which is actually unlikely unless you're playing against Dredge or Reanimator. Thus you can use this technique to either stall out for time or to prevent your opponent from winning by forcing a draw.
There is also the fact it is just as easily hurt by graveyard hate like dredge and reanimator. You first would need to discard the dragon via discard outlet or entomb it. Then you need an enchant based reanimation spell. Then like something to finish the job with mana. That's at least a 3 card combo. Not very stable or consistent in my book.
Maybe you should play a format more before you start arguing what should be banned.
If every player in this thread read this and followed it, most people wouldn't be able to comment at all on the non-rotating formats. I made an prediction because I hear from a lot of people that SnT should be banned. Hell, I've been playing the card in a Vintage Oath variant, and its redonkulous there too. Would you have preferred I jumped on the "unban earthcraft" train (which I totally do not support) without even doing a smidgen of research??
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Thanks to Rivenor for the signature and XenoNinja for the Avi!
Thread's huge at this point but in case anyone cares:
Block: No Changes
Apparently RG is ridiculous...but its just a collection of the best cards in the colors. Kind of like Jund in Modern. But BNG could shake things up...right? ........right???
Standard: No Changes
Don't really need to explain this.
Modern: Unban Sword of the Meek
Let's all be honest with ourselves: Control needs some help. UWR Wafo is the only real control deck in the format, and it hasn't even Top 8'd the last THREE GP's. Sword of the Meek could possibly help UWR, but it also opens up the option for Tezzeret or other artifact-based control decks. All the other archetypes in Modern are fine, just look at those three gp's I talked about. Aggro is fine, Ramp is fine, Tempo is fine, and Midrange and Combo rule the format.
Legacy: Ban Show and Tell
I don't really play legacy much, but I'm just baffled that this card is still legal. Just. Wow.
Vintage: Unrestrict Gifts Ungiven
I mean, Jace is just better. No one even plays their allowed singelton, so....
I agree with unrestricting gifts ungiven in vintage it really is just a worse jace.
So you want your control decks to run 2 cards that are bad on there own but are a COMBO together? yeah that makes perfect sense I'm sure it won't devolve into another combo deck.
Sword of the Meek is used in a combo for infinite turns with time sieve and thopter foundry...I thought it was banned more for that purpose...
quite right, I wasn't thinking of that at the time of my last post. As such, if they would unban sword, it would probably have a simultaneous ban of time seive, or they could just leave it banned since that's the obvious choice.
But again, [show and tell] does not, at present, deserve a banning any more than Splinter Twin deserves a ban in Modern
That's just the thing, twin doesn't need banned because it's not too dominate, jund deals with it easy, control does too usually, and aggro/burn puts enough pressure it that it basically has 2 turns of setup and if it cannot win t4, then it just loses. I cannot comment on how show and tell does because I only play modern atm but from what I understand, although it is a very good deck, there are decks that answer it, and therefore it shouldn't be banned either.
First they came for seething song and I did not speak out because I was not a storm player. Then they came for deathrite shaman, and I did not speak out, because I was not a Jund player. Then they came for Snapcaster Mage, but I did not speak out, because I was not a U player. Then they came for my deck, and there was no one left to speak out for me. But screw eggs because no one liked that deck anyway.
I can tell you don't play legacy because you want this to be banned. Show and Tell is not the problem, Griselbrand is.
and even if griselbrand was the problem, the deck is still not dominating nearly enough to banned either of them. although i will say show and tell is the problem not griselbrand, every card that is made after it makes it better, griselbrand is a great draw card, but not too powerful without massive enablers like show and tell and stuff that lets you cheat it into play. same with any high costed creature.
If every player in this thread read this and followed it, most people wouldn't be able to comment at all on the non-rotating formats. I made an prediction because I hear from a lot of people that SnT should be banned.
And it shouldn't. It isn't anything close to dominant and has real weaknesses. To put it blunt, people who think it should be banned are just whining because they don't happen to like the deck. And while it is a kinda boring deck in all honesty, there's no good reason for it to be banned. It isn't even the best deck or most consistently-placing deck in the format.
Hell, I've been playing the card in a Vintage Oath variant, and its redonkulous there too. Would you have preferred I jumped on the "unban earthcraft" train (which I totally do not support) without even doing a smidgen of research??
Unbanning Earthcraft makes a lot more sense than banning Show and Tell.
That's just the thing, twin doesn't need banned because it's not too dominate, jund deals with it easy, control does too usually, and aggro/burn puts enough pressure it that it basically has 2 turns of setup and if it cannot win t4, then it just loses. I cannot comment on how show and tell does because I only play modern atm but from what I understand, although it is a very good deck, there are decks that answer it, and therefore it shouldn't be banned either.
That was my point. Splinter Twin does not need a ban, and neither does Show and Tell. They're both equally banworthy, quite frankly, which is to say: They're not.
What do you have to say to those that think a 3 mana sorcery cheating a 15 mana fatty - almost saying win the game - into the battlefield is overpowered? Do you care if a single card's power level is too high?
It is a bad idea to base bannings on the subjective feelings of specific people on the unmeasurable "power" of a card. You want to ban a card? Show the data. Don't say that a card should be banned for being OP when the numbers say it isn't.
What do you have to say to those that think a 3 mana sorcery cheating a 15 mana fatty - almost saying win the game - into the battlefield is overpowered?
For starters, that everything in the format is overpowered. Even the "fairest" of decks are running cards that do way more for their casting cost than they should.
If someone's going to claim that something is more overpowered than the rest of the format, they should have objective data rather than subjective feelings to back that up.
Do you care if a single card's power level is too high?
Of course I do. But if Show and Tell's power was too high, then it would be, at a minimum, the top deck in the format (though if "being the top deck" was grounds for a banning then RUG Delver should've received a ban a long time ago). Data clearly says otherwise.
If every player in this thread read this and followed it, most people wouldn't be able to comment at all on the non-rotating formats. I made an prediction because I hear from a lot of people that SnT should be banned. Hell, I've been playing the card in a Vintage Oath variant, and its redonkulous there too. Would you have preferred I jumped on the "unban earthcraft" train (which I totally do not support) without even doing a smidgen of research??
This is the worst possible logic you could use. Yes, every single person that opens their mouth about a card or format should have pretty extensive experience with that card or format. That's literally the only way a conversation or discourse can make any sense. Otherwise you're just babbling and your words have literally no meaning. Every time I discuss a card to unban I take a few hours to build a list and run it against the gauntlet of the most powerful decks currently available. That's how most people get their opinions on the inadequacy of the modern banned list, because they have firsthand experience with how uderwhelming some of these cards are. On the other hand, pushing for a ban should come from a position of extreme familiarity with a format. Since True-Name Nemesis came out, I have played in a Grand Prix, multiple Star City Opens, and countless smaller local events both with and against the card. From this position I would feel confident in expressing an opinion about the format as its health, and TNN's impact. For the record I don't think it should be banned, just giving an example of how familiar you should be with a format before spouting off inadequate commentary.
Oh, I thought he was talking about playing a spell that is countering a spell with counters on it as it comes into play, but I see you guys were just discussing whether he was flashing a creature with flash in order to flash a flashback or just flashing a creature with flash but not needing flash in order to flashback a spell without flash.
Show and Tell is too powerful for its mana cost. Of course, that's what makes a card constructed playable in the first place. It isn't ban worthy, though. It just creates a combo deck that wins in a less obnoxious way than storm where it isn't even fun to play it, since you play with yourself for 20 minutes, counting and recounting **** over and over to make sure you have everything right and finally figure out whether you win or lose. Show and Tell is a much more fun combo for everyone than storm/eggs/Open the Vault where you have to play with yourself for a long time to have any idea whether you won or not.
Sword of the Meek is used in a combo for infinite turns with time sieve and thopter foundry...I thought it was banned more for that purpose...
it's a 3 card 11 mana combo where none of the cards are realistically self sufficient, and it is never going to violate the turn 3 rule on a consistent basis. This also of course overlooking if the thopter sword deck's opponent has no hand disruption, counter magic, graveyard hate, or artifact removal... which basically every good deck in the format has (except for maybe affinity who probably just kills you while you derp around with your time sieve). It would be infinitely more practical to put the thopter sword combo in a control shell.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
It's single set block. They might ban something after BNG, but they're increasing the card pool by about 50% so it doesn't matter right now.
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Truth be told, Worldgorger Dragon is actually a fairly unimpressive combo. First you have to get it into your graveyard, then you have to reanimate it with a particular spell; Reanimate won't do it, it has to be one of the enchantment reanimations. Then you have to have something to dump all that mana into it. Sure seems a lot more needlessly complicated than dumping Griselbrand into the graveyard, reanimating him, and having a very high chance of victory without requiring another card to finish the combo with. I guess the Worldgorger Dragon combo gives you a higher chance of victory, as funneling infinite mana into something is a sure win compared to the probable win of Griselbrand, but it's also much more shaky in terms of execution. I don't see it as more powerful than your regular reanimator strategy--it might be worse, actually.
The real issue with the Worldgorger Dragon combo is that if you don't have the outlet for the mana, you can use the combo anyway to force a draw for a game, as it sets up an infinite loop that can only be escaped by having another target for Animate Dead, which is actually unlikely unless you're playing against Dredge or Reanimator. Thus you can use this technique to either stall out for time or to prevent your opponent from winning by forcing a draw.
Block: No Changes
Apparently RG is ridiculous...but its just a collection of the best cards in the colors. Kind of like Jund in Modern. But BNG could shake things up...right? ........right???
Standard: No Changes
Don't really need to explain this.
Modern: Unban Sword of the Meek
Let's all be honest with ourselves: Control needs some help. UWR Wafo is the only real control deck in the format, and it hasn't even Top 8'd the last THREE GP's. Sword of the Meek could possibly help UWR, but it also opens up the option for Tezzeret or other artifact-based control decks. All the other archetypes in Modern are fine, just look at those three gp's I talked about. Aggro is fine, Ramp is fine, Tempo is fine, and Midrange and Combo rule the format.
Legacy: Ban Show and Tell
I don't really play legacy much, but I'm just baffled that this card is still legal. Just. Wow.
Vintage: Unrestrict Gifts Ungiven
I mean, Jace is just better. No one even plays their allowed singelton, so....
Thanks to Rivenor for the signature and XenoNinja for the Avi!
Quotes:
In thinking about it, you might be right about this, the 2 cards are realetively unimpressive on their own, and together they require a lot of mana and no gy disruption. Additionally it requires infinite mana to become a real "combo". However, wizards doesn't want something that's difficult to interact with to be available no matter how much it benefits a particular strategy that we think needs help (although I'd be willing to take my control build to any ptq or gp around, I just work weekends). So it probably will not unban soon, but in the long run it may one day be unbanned, but others will likely come off before this.
I believe it's still legal because it's a double-edged sword. Sure it gets out omniscience for an insta-uncounterable kill unless you counter SnT or destroy omniscience without your kill spell getting countered, but if that's the case, might as well ban omniscience instead. Sneak and show also uses SnT, but doesn't give an insta win the turn it comes down. Also, the opposing player can put down a permanent too, meaning that they can put a land and either Krosan grip omniscience the turn it comes down or deal with emrakul on the next turn. It also usually comes down on turn 3, giving you some time to prepare for it.
If SnT decks ever get too strong, the most likely ban may go to something that really strengthens the deck, for example Omniscience or Emrakul(althoughI highly doubt that Em will get banned)
EDIT: they might ban whatever makes the deck too consistent as well, maybe brainstorm will see a ban? It does give a lot of decks a lot of consistency in legacy without much risk...
Thanks Argentleman;)
WB Teysa token aggroBW (retired)
MAKING (Onmath, Numot, maybe something in Esper)
I believe you are baffled because you don't play legacy. Show and Tell just doesn't put up the numbers to be banned. That simple. People can try to argue how overpowered it is as much as they like, but at the end of the day, the numbers do not support it dominating legacy.
Show and Tell does not deserve a ban. It's not dominating in any way, and while it's a powerful combo, it is not overpowered in the context of the format. Quite frankly, if anything should be banned in Legacy it's True-Name Nemesis. Not saying it necessarily should be banned; but it's the card most deserving of a ban.
Maybe you should play a format more before you start arguing what should be banned.
Banning Brainstorm just to hit Show and Tell seems an awfully bad idea considering how many other decks it hits. Granted, a few people argue Brainstorm should be banned because of how much it's played, but that's a different argument.
And if Show and Tell does get out of hand, Show and Tell will be the one to get the ban. It's the enabler. They're clearly far more likely to print another Emrakul/Griselbrand than another Show and Tell. But again, the card does not, at present, deserve a banning any more than Splinter Twin deserves a ban in Modern.
There is also the fact it is just as easily hurt by graveyard hate like dredge and reanimator. You first would need to discard the dragon via discard outlet or entomb it. Then you need an enchant based reanimation spell. Then like something to finish the job with mana. That's at least a 3 card combo. Not very stable or consistent in my book.
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If every player in this thread read this and followed it, most people wouldn't be able to comment at all on the non-rotating formats. I made an prediction because I hear from a lot of people that SnT should be banned. Hell, I've been playing the card in a Vintage Oath variant, and its redonkulous there too. Would you have preferred I jumped on the "unban earthcraft" train (which I totally do not support) without even doing a smidgen of research??
Thanks to Rivenor for the signature and XenoNinja for the Avi!
Quotes:
I agree with unrestricting gifts ungiven in vintage it really is just a worse jace.
So you want your control decks to run 2 cards that are bad on there own but are a COMBO together? yeah that makes perfect sense I'm sure it won't devolve into another combo deck.
quite right, I wasn't thinking of that at the time of my last post. As such, if they would unban sword, it would probably have a simultaneous ban of time seive, or they could just leave it banned since that's the obvious choice.
That's just the thing, twin doesn't need banned because it's not too dominate, jund deals with it easy, control does too usually, and aggro/burn puts enough pressure it that it basically has 2 turns of setup and if it cannot win t4, then it just loses. I cannot comment on how show and tell does because I only play modern atm but from what I understand, although it is a very good deck, there are decks that answer it, and therefore it shouldn't be banned either.
I can tell you don't play legacy because you want this to be banned. Show and Tell is not the problem, Griselbrand is.
and even if griselbrand was the problem, the deck is still not dominating nearly enough to banned either of them. although i will say show and tell is the problem not griselbrand, every card that is made after it makes it better, griselbrand is a great draw card, but not too powerful without massive enablers like show and tell and stuff that lets you cheat it into play. same with any high costed creature.
Unbanning Earthcraft makes a lot more sense than banning Show and Tell.
That was my point. Splinter Twin does not need a ban, and neither does Show and Tell. They're both equally banworthy, quite frankly, which is to say: They're not.
Nope, that isn't mentioned anywhere in the reasoning and that combo would not be broken compared to other Modern decks.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
It is a bad idea to base bannings on the subjective feelings of specific people on the unmeasurable "power" of a card. You want to ban a card? Show the data. Don't say that a card should be banned for being OP when the numbers say it isn't.
For starters, that everything in the format is overpowered. Even the "fairest" of decks are running cards that do way more for their casting cost than they should.
If someone's going to claim that something is more overpowered than the rest of the format, they should have objective data rather than subjective feelings to back that up.
Of course I do. But if Show and Tell's power was too high, then it would be, at a minimum, the top deck in the format (though if "being the top deck" was grounds for a banning then RUG Delver should've received a ban a long time ago). Data clearly says otherwise.
This is the worst possible logic you could use. Yes, every single person that opens their mouth about a card or format should have pretty extensive experience with that card or format. That's literally the only way a conversation or discourse can make any sense. Otherwise you're just babbling and your words have literally no meaning. Every time I discuss a card to unban I take a few hours to build a list and run it against the gauntlet of the most powerful decks currently available. That's how most people get their opinions on the inadequacy of the modern banned list, because they have firsthand experience with how uderwhelming some of these cards are. On the other hand, pushing for a ban should come from a position of extreme familiarity with a format. Since True-Name Nemesis came out, I have played in a Grand Prix, multiple Star City Opens, and countless smaller local events both with and against the card. From this position I would feel confident in expressing an opinion about the format as its health, and TNN's impact. For the record I don't think it should be banned, just giving an example of how familiar you should be with a format before spouting off inadequate commentary.
-regarding Snapcaster Mage.
Just like Survival of the Fittest wasn't the problem but Vengevine was. And why the heck did they ever ban Flash when Protean Hulk was clearly the issue.
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Planeswalker - Tiamat
[+1] Sit on Nicol Bolas
[+0] Wait for him to beg for mercy, rule the multiverse.
[-7] Not necessary, she is the ultimate.
it's a 3 card 11 mana combo where none of the cards are realistically self sufficient, and it is never going to violate the turn 3 rule on a consistent basis. This also of course overlooking if the thopter sword deck's opponent has no hand disruption, counter magic, graveyard hate, or artifact removal... which basically every good deck in the format has (except for maybe affinity who probably just kills you while you derp around with your time sieve). It would be infinitely more practical to put the thopter sword combo in a control shell.
I see you also don't play Legacy. Stay classy.