Even if it was a consistent turn 3 deck it would be fine. Technically, it doesn't win on turn 3. It is also incredibly weak to disruption. It is easy to reanimate Griselbrand or Iona on turn 3 in Modern with cascade spells= Breaking // Entering. That doesn't see play because it is weak to disruption. That deck would be too.
You know I actually do agree with you there, it would likely be a fine deck.
But wizards hates dredge with a passion. I do not think they will ever unban Dread Return
After reading most of this thread, I've came to my honest opinion on the modern ban list
Candidates for the unban: Bitterblossom can be unbanned safely enough. Fairies is not a teir1 deck right now, and unbanning this could let that deck follow in Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle's footsteps. Ancestral Vision should not be unbanned. Although I agree that control deserves a little more love, this has the potential to push it over the top. (I should know, I play control) Wild Nacatl should be unbanned. It was good to ban him in the first place to let the format grow without him as a challenge, but now the time is right to lift the ban hammer on this little guy to give zoo a way to win, it would also put additional pressure on jund along with affinity. Golgari Grave-Troll cannot safely be unbanned and here is why- as already stated earlier in the thread ot will probably do nothing in modern and wizards knows this fact, but there is a chance that it will break with some unseen interaction. It is not a good enough card on its own right to be worth running in "fair" decks, but it's abilities are powerful enough in conjunction with other interactions that it could create a degenerate, and hard to interact with powerhouse that warps the format. Seething Song was banned to hose storm enough to stop turn three wins, but not make it unviable as a deck to all but the most skilled and practiced magic players. Wizards even said at the time of the ban "we figured Seething Song was the biggest culprate because you can start storming t3 for 3 mana" coming from a storm player pre ban, I can tell you that this line of logic was absolutely incorrect. Storm needs a third viable rit to be able to storm with any consistency. Unless they print a new rit, this card should be unbanned with the simultaneous ban of a different storm card. Bloodbraid Elf was banned for jund for about the same reason as Seething Song was for storm. Should this be unbanned (I am on the fence about either way) it should be accommodate by another ban for jund. Preordain could be safely unbanned imo
ready for the ban hammer: Deathrite Shaman should be banned if bbe is unbanned, I think this is the best approach should he be banned, but wizards could just give him the axe on the principle of its shear power allone. It fits in literally every BGX deck. This card is a combination of Birds of Paradise, Grim Lavamancer, and Scavenging Ooze. Decks that could include any one of these three creatures could almost as easily run Deathrite Shaman, in witch case that makes this tho most powerful common card amung all BGX decks, witch could merrit it the ban. Goblin Electromancer or Epic Experiment. These cards should only be banned if they unban seething song to see how storm adapts because in my opinion these are cards that they could ban to make it not A t3 deck but leave it viable as a deck. Cranial Plating I only bring this card up because it was brought up earlier in the thread. If this card was banned it would instantly drop affinity from tier 1 to tier 2 or worse. That along with the fact that affinity is not a problem in the format at all, means this should defdinately not receive the axe.
This is just my opinion, but I do play modern a lot and I really enjoy the format, I think it is a rich format even if it is slightly skewed in the direction of BGX. Does anyone seriously disagree with anything I've said? If so why?
First they came for seething song and I did not speak out because I was not a storm player. Then they came for deathrite shaman, and I did not speak out, because I was not a Jund player. Then they came for Snapcaster Mage, but I did not speak out, because I was not a U player. Then they came for my deck, and there was no one left to speak out for me. But screw eggs because no one liked that deck anyway.
Golgari Grave-Troll cannot safely be unbanned and here is why- as already stated earlier in the thread ot will probably do nothing in modern and wizards knows this fact, but there is a chance that it will break with some unseen interaction. It is not a good enough card on its own right to be worth running in "fair" decks, but it's abilities are powerful enough in conjunction with other interactions that it could create a degenerate, and hard to interact with powerhouse that warps the format.
Deathrite Shaman should be banned if bbe is unbanned, I think this is the best approach should he be banned, but wizards could just give him the axe on the principle of its shear power allone. It fits in literally every BGX deck. This card is a combination of Birds of Paradise, Grim Lavamancer, and Scavenging Ooze. Decks that could include any one of these three creatures could almost as easily run Deathrite Shaman, in witch case that makes this tho most powerful common card amung all BGX decks, witch could merrit it the ban.
Deathrite Shaman cannot be compared with Lavamancer because he cannot destroy creatures with his ability, which is a huge upside Lavamancer has.
There is no unseen interaction with Grave-Troll. We all know what it does, its the highest dredge card that exists. If you want to dump your deck into your graveyard, you use Grave-Troll.
The only deck that it would slot into is Dredge-a-Vine, which sees hardly any play now that Scavenging ooze and deathrite are both in the format.
Deathrite Shaman cannot be compared with Lavamancer because he cannot destroy creatures with his ability, which is a huge upside Lavamancer has.
That is a fair argument, shaman cannot kill creatures, but he can hose graveyards for loss of life, so it is basically a trade off as far as exile from an opponents gy or be able to kill their dude.
The only deck that [Golgari Grave-troll] would slot into is Dredge-a-Vine, which sees hardly any play now that Scavenging ooze and deathrite are both in the format.
I will be honest I've never seen such a list put up numbers online or anywhere else for that matter, but maybe I just missed it. In any case if the unban of him would result in a fringe playable or tier 1 deck then im honestly all for it, but if it could result in an unbeatable (for all intensive purposes) deck, then it shouldn't come off. Regardless thanks for the reply
First they came for seething song and I did not speak out because I was not a storm player. Then they came for deathrite shaman, and I did not speak out, because I was not a Jund player. Then they came for Snapcaster Mage, but I did not speak out, because I was not a U player. Then they came for my deck, and there was no one left to speak out for me. But screw eggs because no one liked that deck anyway.
The only actually safe unban is Bitterblossom. Abrupt Decay exists, and plenty of 1/1 sweepers are readily available, so it would likely not be oppressive.
Ari Lax had some good points for not unbanning Nacatl, though. While the format certainly lacks many, or any, viable agro decks besides affinity, that is fine, because it's a unique format with numerous strategies that aren't just carbon copies of Legacy, or Legacy-lite decks. And Nacatl doesn't actually make for interesting game states.
I would be surprised if anything was banned in Modern or Legacy at this point, and anyone whining about Deathrite in Modern probably doesn't play the format much. It's powerful, absolutely, but completely reasonable, and it can be interacted with, and does not just take over games in any unreasonable sense.
That is a fair argument, shaman cannot kill creatures, but he can hose graveyards for loss of life, so it is basically a trade off as far as exile from an opponents gy or be able to kill their dude.
I will be honest I've never seen such a list put up numbers online or anywhere else for that matter, but maybe I just missed it. In any case if the unban of him would result in a fringe playable or tier 1 deck then im honestly all for it, but if it could result in an unbeatable (for all intensive purposes) deck, then it shouldn't come off. Regardless thanks for the reply
Do you really feel that Dredge 6 will create an unbeatable deck when Dredge 5 doesn't?
The only actually safe unban is Bitterblossom. Abrupt Decay exists, and plenty of 1/1 sweepers are readily available, so it would likely not be oppressive.
Ari Lax had some good points for not unbanning Nacatl, though. While the format certainly lacks many, or any, viable agro decks besides affinity, that is fine, because it's a unique format with numerous strategies that aren't just carbon copies of Legacy, or Legacy-lite decks. And Nacatl doesn't actually make for interesting game states.
I would be surprised if anything was banned in Modern or Legacy at this point, and anyone whining about Deathrite in Modern probably doesn't play the format much. It's powerful, absolutely, but completely reasonable, and it can be interacted with, and does not just take over games in any unreasonable sense.
Zoo doesn't exist in Legacy anymore, so it wouldn't be a "carbon-copy". Also, should cards stay banned because they aren't interesting?
I personally think that Bitterblossom, Preordain, Golgari Grave-Troll, Ancestral Vision, and Wild Nacatl would all undoubtedly safe unbans.
Ponder, Green Sun's Zenith, and Sword of the Meek (or Dark Depths, but not both) are cards that I believe would be safe in the format, but that I admit that I could be wrong about.
Jace, Stoneforge Mystic, Seething Song, Dread Return, and Chrome Mox are cards that I would be worried about, but that I don't think would utterly destroy the format.
Anything else being unbanned would get me to quit the format.
Do you really feel that Dredge 6 will create an unbeatable deck when Dredge 5 doesn't?
I've no opinion on whether it would have a negative impact, but I wanted to say that I think you're oversimplifying what having access to Golgari Grave-Troll does. It's not a matter of "Well if GGT is unbanned I'll replace my Dredge 5 creature", it's a matter of "Now I can play a Dredge 6 creature in addition to a Dredge 5 creature and over double my chance of Dredging for 5+".
Unban the dredge crap. It's been sufficiently nerfed with DRS and Scooze, plus the infinite sideboard hate out there.
Ban nothing for now, but watch Cranial Plating and Delver of Secrets. Control and combo need to post better results against this sea of tempo...
Cranial Plating isn't a Tempo card, Delver decks aren't anywhere near dominant, and combo is the most played archetype in the format along with midrange. Tempo needs unbans and new cards, not bans.
The only actually safe unban is Bitterblossom. Abrupt Decay exists, and plenty of 1/1 sweepers are readily available, so it would likely not be oppressive.
Only safe? Golgari Grave-Troll is not only "actually safe," it would do even less to the format than Land Tax did in Legacy. The only reason people don't discuss it much is because it would do nothing, so no one cares about it. But don't be ridiculous and claim that anything on the banned list is somehow more safe than Golgari Grave-Troll.
Now, I do agree that Bitterblossom seems safe, but when it comes to safe, nothing beats Golgari Grave-Troll.
Only safe? Golgari Grave-Troll is not only "actually safe," it would do even less to the format than Land Tax did in Legacy. The only reason people don't discuss it much is because it would do nothing, so no one cares about it. But don't be ridiculous and claim that anything on the banned list is somehow more safe than Golgari Grave-Troll.
Now, I do agree that Bitterblossom seems safe, but when it comes to safe, nothing beats Golgari Grave-Troll.
What did Land Tax do to legacy? I haven't seen it played at all or made any prominent showings since it was unbanned.
@seriousaboutbacon you are probably right about bitterblossim being the only best unban, but the other things I listed are my opinion on what could happen. also, everyone who keeps talking about watching crainial plating and delver obviously don't play too much modern, those cards are relatively easy to deal with, or in some cases race. The format is not warped around these strategies, in fact most decks that are not jund don't udually pack artifact destruction in the side (in hindsight maybe that is why people are upset about it because they don't know how to build a decent side bord). As for delver, if you cannot deal with a 1/1 that sometimes becomes a 3/2 bird then you might want to redesign your deck. If anyone would like to debate me about my view on those cards then please show me your arguments I respond to anything but grave-troll logic. However the debate over what card(s) they might ban is pretty well agreed, if they ban anything, its likely deathrite shaman. I'm not saying they will ban it, I personally don't think it will be banned, and if it is I sincerely hope jund doesn't fail as a deck at that point although in sure it wouldn't, it would just find another super efficient thing to put in such is the way of jund.
First they came for seething song and I did not speak out because I was not a storm player. Then they came for deathrite shaman, and I did not speak out, because I was not a Jund player. Then they came for Snapcaster Mage, but I did not speak out, because I was not a U player. Then they came for my deck, and there was no one left to speak out for me. But screw eggs because no one liked that deck anyway.
What did Land Tax do to legacy? I haven't seen it played at all or made any prominent showings since it was unbanned.
It had a few decent finishes for a week or two after it was unbanned (probably because everyone was trying it out) and then disappeared from the format entirely when everyone realized how mediocre it actually was.
It could, because Grave-Troll replaces a Dredge 3 card, not a Dredge 5 card. Why do people keep comparing Troll to Imp? Are they dumb?
How will an additional large dredger take Dredge decks from being non-existent to breaking the format?
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I am a person who likes the smallest ban-list possible so if anything I would hope for unbannings. While I doubt all the cards I list will be unbanned I think they should.
Modern: Ancestral Vision, Bitterblossom, Chrome Mox, Green Sun's Zenith, Ponder, Preordain, Sensei's Divining Top, and Wild Nacatl.
Legacy: Black Vise, Earthcraft, Mind Twist, Worldgorger Dragon.
A card I would like unbanned, but just because I like it would be Strip Mine. Although I am not sure entirely if it would be a good idea, I could see some problems, but I like resource denial strategies, and feel it would make them better.
My idea is:
Standard: nothing
Modern: nothing
Legacy & Vintage: nothing.
I dunno about Pauper or Block Constructed, but I don't think we'll see any movement for the most important constructed formats, there's no reason (for them, of course) to stir things up.
Why not? The meta in Modern is stale. Theros didn't provide us with much and Born of the Gods will provide us with even less. Modern's banned list is too large. If cards can't be unbanned in a stale meta and they can't be unbanned in a changing meta, when can they be unbanned?
I am a person who likes the smallest ban-list possible so if anything I would hope for unbannings. While I doubt all the cards I list will be unbanned I think they should.
Modern: Ancestral Vision, Bitterblossom, Chrome Mox, Green Sun's Zenith, Ponder, Preordain, Sensei's Divining Top, and Wild Nacatl.
Legacy: Black Vise, Earthcraft, Mind Twist, Worldgorger Dragon.
A card I would like unbanned, but just because I like it would be Strip Mine. Although I am not sure entirely if it would be a good idea, I could see some problems, but I like resource denial strategies, and feel it would make them better.
Strip Mine should never be removed off ban list. Wasteland is already there to punish decks that are greedy on mana and we don't need land that just blows up even basic lands. I would not want to see decks have access to 8 lands that can easily blow up my own.
i really like the idea of un-banning GSZ, i dont like being forced to use chord. I think it would also be necessary for pod decks to still exist if birthing pod gets banned as some people have suggested. i personally dont think birthing pod should be banned. pod isn't unfair because it is very difficult to pilot, and the meta has numerous answers/hate. it is also very interactive. the only time i have ever not wanted to play against pod i dropped because I was playing UG infect and had no answer for a resolved melira. oops, shoulda splashed black.
I am a person who likes the smallest ban-list possible so if anything I would hope for unbannings. While I doubt all the cards I list will be unbanned I think they should.
Modern: Ancestral Vision, Bitterblossom, Chrome Mox, Green Sun's Zenith, Ponder, Preordain, Sensei's Divining Top, and Wild Nacatl.
Legacy: Black Vise, Earthcraft, Mind Twist, Worldgorger Dragon.
A card I would like unbanned, but just because I like it would be Strip Mine. Although I am not sure entirely if it would be a good idea, I could see some problems, but I like resource denial strategies, and feel it would make them better.
Strip Mine should never be removed off ban list. Wasteland is already there to punish decks that are greedy on mana and we don't need land that just blows up even basic lands. I would not want to see decks have access to 8 lands that can easily blow up my own.
Hey I did say there might be problems with Strip Mine. I am not entirely sure how Strip Mine would effect Legacy as whole. However it is a card I would like to play with. That's part of the reason I did not include in the list up there. I feel those cards are more on the safe side to unban.
Strip Mine will never see the light of day in Legacy with Crucible of Worlds being legal. Not to mention, going back to the days of 8 strips would likely warp the format.
Besides that, even the mention of Worldgorger Dragon makes me cringe. If there's a single card I hate, it's that card. The restrictions it caused in Vintage back in the day made me quit and cash out. Granted, I'm back now... but yeah.
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You know I actually do agree with you there, it would likely be a fine deck.
But wizards hates dredge with a passion. I do not think they will ever unban Dread Return
Candidates for the unban:
Bitterblossom can be unbanned safely enough. Fairies is not a teir1 deck right now, and unbanning this could let that deck follow in Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle's footsteps.
Ancestral Vision should not be unbanned. Although I agree that control deserves a little more love, this has the potential to push it over the top. (I should know, I play control)
Wild Nacatl should be unbanned. It was good to ban him in the first place to let the format grow without him as a challenge, but now the time is right to lift the ban hammer on this little guy to give zoo a way to win, it would also put additional pressure on jund along with affinity.
Golgari Grave-Troll cannot safely be unbanned and here is why- as already stated earlier in the thread ot will probably do nothing in modern and wizards knows this fact, but there is a chance that it will break with some unseen interaction. It is not a good enough card on its own right to be worth running in "fair" decks, but it's abilities are powerful enough in conjunction with other interactions that it could create a degenerate, and hard to interact with powerhouse that warps the format.
Seething Song was banned to hose storm enough to stop turn three wins, but not make it unviable as a deck to all but the most skilled and practiced magic players. Wizards even said at the time of the ban "we figured Seething Song was the biggest culprate because you can start storming t3 for 3 mana" coming from a storm player pre ban, I can tell you that this line of logic was absolutely incorrect. Storm needs a third viable rit to be able to storm with any consistency. Unless they print a new rit, this card should be unbanned with the simultaneous ban of a different storm card.
Bloodbraid Elf was banned for jund for about the same reason as Seething Song was for storm. Should this be unbanned (I am on the fence about either way) it should be accommodate by another ban for jund.
Preordain could be safely unbanned imo
ready for the ban hammer:
Deathrite Shaman should be banned if bbe is unbanned, I think this is the best approach should he be banned, but wizards could just give him the axe on the principle of its shear power allone. It fits in literally every BGX deck. This card is a combination of Birds of Paradise, Grim Lavamancer, and Scavenging Ooze. Decks that could include any one of these three creatures could almost as easily run Deathrite Shaman, in witch case that makes this tho most powerful common card amung all BGX decks, witch could merrit it the ban.
Goblin Electromancer or Epic Experiment. These cards should only be banned if they unban seething song to see how storm adapts because in my opinion these are cards that they could ban to make it not A t3 deck but leave it viable as a deck.
Cranial Plating I only bring this card up because it was brought up earlier in the thread. If this card was banned it would instantly drop affinity from tier 1 to tier 2 or worse. That along with the fact that affinity is not a problem in the format at all, means this should defdinately not receive the axe.
This is just my opinion, but I do play modern a lot and I really enjoy the format, I think it is a rich format even if it is slightly skewed in the direction of BGX. Does anyone seriously disagree with anything I've said? If so why?
Deathrite Shaman cannot be compared with Lavamancer because he cannot destroy creatures with his ability, which is a huge upside Lavamancer has.
There is no unseen interaction with Grave-Troll. We all know what it does, its the highest dredge card that exists. If you want to dump your deck into your graveyard, you use Grave-Troll.
The only deck that it would slot into is Dredge-a-Vine, which sees hardly any play now that Scavenging ooze and deathrite are both in the format.
That is a fair argument, shaman cannot kill creatures, but he can hose graveyards for loss of life, so it is basically a trade off as far as exile from an opponents gy or be able to kill their dude.
I will be honest I've never seen such a list put up numbers online or anywhere else for that matter, but maybe I just missed it. In any case if the unban of him would result in a fringe playable or tier 1 deck then im honestly all for it, but if it could result in an unbeatable (for all intensive purposes) deck, then it shouldn't come off. Regardless thanks for the reply
Ari Lax had some good points for not unbanning Nacatl, though. While the format certainly lacks many, or any, viable agro decks besides affinity, that is fine, because it's a unique format with numerous strategies that aren't just carbon copies of Legacy, or Legacy-lite decks. And Nacatl doesn't actually make for interesting game states.
I would be surprised if anything was banned in Modern or Legacy at this point, and anyone whining about Deathrite in Modern probably doesn't play the format much. It's powerful, absolutely, but completely reasonable, and it can be interacted with, and does not just take over games in any unreasonable sense.
Do you really feel that Dredge 6 will create an unbeatable deck when Dredge 5 doesn't?
Zoo doesn't exist in Legacy anymore, so it wouldn't be a "carbon-copy". Also, should cards stay banned because they aren't interesting?
I personally think that Bitterblossom, Preordain, Golgari Grave-Troll, Ancestral Vision, and Wild Nacatl would all undoubtedly safe unbans.
Ponder, Green Sun's Zenith, and Sword of the Meek (or Dark Depths, but not both) are cards that I believe would be safe in the format, but that I admit that I could be wrong about.
Jace, Stoneforge Mystic, Seething Song, Dread Return, and Chrome Mox are cards that I would be worried about, but that I don't think would utterly destroy the format.
Anything else being unbanned would get me to quit the format.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
I've no opinion on whether it would have a negative impact, but I wanted to say that I think you're oversimplifying what having access to Golgari Grave-Troll does. It's not a matter of "Well if GGT is unbanned I'll replace my Dredge 5 creature", it's a matter of "Now I can play a Dredge 6 creature in addition to a Dredge 5 creature and over double my chance of Dredging for 5+".
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Ban nothing for now, but watch Cranial Plating and Delver of Secrets. Control and combo need to post better results against this sea of tempo...
Cranial Plating isn't a Tempo card, Delver decks aren't anywhere near dominant, and combo is the most played archetype in the format along with midrange. Tempo needs unbans and new cards, not bans.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Only safe? Golgari Grave-Troll is not only "actually safe," it would do even less to the format than Land Tax did in Legacy. The only reason people don't discuss it much is because it would do nothing, so no one cares about it. But don't be ridiculous and claim that anything on the banned list is somehow more safe than Golgari Grave-Troll.
Now, I do agree that Bitterblossom seems safe, but when it comes to safe, nothing beats Golgari Grave-Troll.
It could, because Grave-Troll replaces a Dredge 3 card, not a Dredge 5 card. Why do people keep comparing Troll to Imp? Are they dumb?
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What did Land Tax do to legacy? I haven't seen it played at all or made any prominent showings since it was unbanned.
It had a few decent finishes for a week or two after it was unbanned (probably because everyone was trying it out) and then disappeared from the format entirely when everyone realized how mediocre it actually was.
How will an additional large dredger take Dredge decks from being non-existent to breaking the format?
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I didn't say it would. Most likely Troll does nothing for the format, but there's no reason to risk breaking the format by unbanning it.
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Modern: Ancestral Vision, Bitterblossom, Chrome Mox, Green Sun's Zenith, Ponder, Preordain, Sensei's Divining Top, and Wild Nacatl.
Legacy: Black Vise, Earthcraft, Mind Twist, Worldgorger Dragon.
A card I would like unbanned, but just because I like it would be Strip Mine. Although I am not sure entirely if it would be a good idea, I could see some problems, but I like resource denial strategies, and feel it would make them better.
I loathe creatures! Praise Prison and Land Destruction!
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Why not? The meta in Modern is stale. Theros didn't provide us with much and Born of the Gods will provide us with even less. Modern's banned list is too large. If cards can't be unbanned in a stale meta and they can't be unbanned in a changing meta, when can they be unbanned?
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Strip Mine should never be removed off ban list. Wasteland is already there to punish decks that are greedy on mana and we don't need land that just blows up even basic lands. I would not want to see decks have access to 8 lands that can easily blow up my own.
Hey I did say there might be problems with Strip Mine. I am not entirely sure how Strip Mine would effect Legacy as whole. However it is a card I would like to play with. That's part of the reason I did not include in the list up there. I feel those cards are more on the safe side to unban.
I loathe creatures! Praise Prison and Land Destruction!
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Besides that, even the mention of Worldgorger Dragon makes me cringe. If there's a single card I hate, it's that card. The restrictions it caused in Vintage back in the day made me quit and cash out. Granted, I'm back now... but yeah.