Golgari Grave Troll: Seemingly doesn't do much, but Vengevine decks might be able to use it. could be unbanned easily without much risk, it is unlikely people might dread it's return.
I see what you did there!
I would rather just see one card banned at a time that could impact format like bitterblossom then cards like grave troll that will only have zero impact on the format.
I would rather just see one card banned at a time that could impact format like bitterblossom then cards like grave troll that will only have zero impact on the format.
"Won't have any impact on the format" is not a reason to leave a card on the banned list.
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I would rather just see one card banned at a time that could impact format like bitterblossom then cards like grave troll that will only have zero impact on the format.
"Won't have any impact on the format" is not a reason to leave a card on the banned list.
That was only half of his reasoning. With a card like Grave Troll there are really only 2 things that will happen. Nothing or a broken deck. Why unban something that may be broken when there is no actual upside to unbanning it?
That was only half of his reasoning. With a card like Grave Troll there are really only 2 things that will happen. Nothing or a broken deck. Why unban something that may be broken when there is no actual upside to unbanning it?
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Only 2 things can happen with Sorrow's Path. Nothing or a broken deck.
The part of Dredge that breaks magic isn't the dredge mechanics, it's Bridge from Below. Golgari Grave-Troll and Dread Return are cards that could allow for a graveyard based deck that still plays magic. You can fight Dread Return with removal and counterspells and having it answered is a huge blow, assuming the opponent doesn't get 6 or 9 free 2/2s out of the deal. Wizards has said Bridge from Below isn't really a magic card and so the current position of banning GGT and Dread Return while leaving it legal is strange. Dredge without Ichorid or Bridge from Below would be a weird Reanimator variant that would be playable without being broken.
That was only half of his reasoning. With a card like Grave Troll there are really only 2 things that will happen. Nothing or a broken deck. Why unban something that may be broken when there is no actual upside to unbanning it?
Tell me how one extra milled card above Stinkweed Imp is enough to take dredge from unplayable to a broken deck. Is all a broken dredge deck missing is one more big dredger?
MAYBE, MAYBE unbanning Grave-Troll would create a playable deck based around the dredge mechanic. There's no way that it would suddenly break the format, though.
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That was only half of his reasoning. With a card like Grave Troll there are really only 2 things that will happen. Nothing or a broken deck. Why unban something that may be broken when there is no actual upside to unbanning it?
Tell me how one extra milled card above Stinkweed Imp is enough to take dredge from unplayable to a broken deck. Is all a broken dredge deck missing is one more big dredger?
MAYBE, MAYBE unbanning Grave-Troll would create a playable deck based around the dredge mechanic. There's no way that it would suddenly break the format, though.
The mistake you are making is comparing Troll to Imp. Troll doesn't replace Imp. It replaces the 4th best dredge card, Shambling Shell. Now we're talking about "drawing" an extra 3 cards per turn. Add in Faithless Looting amd we're looking at 9 cards per turn over what dresge decks can do right now (which by the way have performed at events like PTs). You are risking breaking the format for you yourself admit doesn't actually help the format.
The mistake you are making is comparing Troll to Imp. Troll doesn't replace Imp. It replaces the 4th best dredge card, Shambling Shell. Now we're talking about "drawing" an extra 3 cards per turn. Add in Faithless Looting amd we're looking at 9 cards per turn over what dresge decks can do right now (which by the way have performed at events like PTs). You are risking breaking the format for you yourself admit doesn't actually help the format.
As I said,
Quote from ThoughtXRiot »
Is all a broken dredge deck missing is one more big dredger?
What are you doing with all that dredging, considering Dread Return would still be banned?
And what dredge decks have performed at events like PTs? No dredge decks posted 18 or more points at EITHER of the Modern PTs.
As long as Dread Return is banned, Grave Troll can be safely unbanned. It is not the missing piece of a broken dredge deck. Something to actually do with all that dredging is.
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Unban Bitterblossom
-This seems powerful, but very safe.
-It will make Jund very good, and will enable a Fae deck. Wild Nacatl
-try attacking through tarmogoyf
-aggro (sans Affinity) sucks Ancestal Visions
-Modern lacks a control deck. This is kinda risky, but would worth a shot Golgari Grave-Troll
-Wouldn't do anything Ban
-I don't think anything needs to be banned.
Unban Earthcraft and Black Vice don't seem too broken. Ban
Format seems healthy enough.
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EDH Decks UWB Oloro, Ageless Ascetic's spring of life RUG Animar, Soul of the Elements and friends... lots of them WBG Karador king of two worlds (value and attrition) WRKalemne's Angels BRUG Yidris's Wild Party UWBR Breya's Terrifying Tinker Toys UBRThe Pretender
I disagree with unbanning ancestral visions, unbanning that card would probably make control decks too good....
How? It does nothing in the late game and doesn't do anything until turn 5 at best. Also, Control needs the help. Why should Midrange get cards like DRS, Goyf, and Bob while Control only gets Snapcaster Mage as a Legacy power-level card?
Unban Bitterblossom
-This seems powerful, but very safe.
-It will make Jund very good, and will enable a Fae deck. Wild Nacatl
-try attacking through tarmogoyf
-aggro (sans Affinity) sucks Ancestal Visions
-Modern lacks a control deck. This is kinda risky, but would worth a shot Golgari Grave-Troll
-Wouldn't do anything Ban
-I don't think anything needs to be banned.
Unban Earthcraft and Black Vice don't seem too broken. Ban
Format seems healthy enough.
For your legacy choices, I strongly disagree with black vise. Wizards and a large amount of legacy players like the idea of card advantage in the hand. And no matter what deck you're playing, black vise starts a clock right away... Which isn't the way it should always go... Its just not a card that is fun to play or play against
I feel like JTMS could get unbanned in Modern ONLY IF at least two of the following cards get unbanned:
Bloodbraid Elf
Wild Nacatl
Seething Song
Bitterblossom
He's good, but he's not invincible.
Bloodbraid Elf is the natural foil to Jace and is a good choice. The problem with Bitterblossom is it goes into the same deck as Jace. Fae with Jace and BB is just going to be obnoxious.
Standard Mardu Midrange Modern 4 Colour Delver, Naya Midrange CommanderSidisi 1v1, Sliver Overlord, Intet the Dreamer, Mayael the Anima (shameless plug http://youtu.be/4zu4QRvGSo8)
Alright, so lets say your commander is Riku of Two Reflections. Combo commander, to be sure, but lets push this into the realm of absurd. You cast Palinchron and do your Riku thing to make infinite mana because we're going to need it. Forget about your extra Palinchron tokens. A million flying 4/5s is boring. So now you cast Enter the Infinite, because drawing your deck is important. Follow it up with a Obstinate Familiar because not decking yourself is equally important. Laboratory Maniac could work here too, but we're gonna go some more levels deep. Cast a Greater Good because we want a tasteful sac outlet. Follow this up with Parallel Lives, Doubling Season,Copy Enchantment, Clever Impersonator, Mycosynth Latice, Phyrexian Metamorph, and Copy Artifact giving you 6 double token effects. Here's where it gets fun now. Cast a Reef Worm. Sac it to greater good and get 256 Fish, which you sac to get 65,536 whales, which you sac to get 16,777,216 Krakens. Are we done yet? Nope! Cast Thromok the Insatiable, devouring all your krakens to make a 281,474,976,710,656/281,474,976,710,656 Thromok. Where do we go from here though? Let your opponent cast Death Mutation on him! Why, that's 7.20575940x10^16 tokens! Good thing we have Body Double to make another Thromok the Insatiable who will be a 5.19229686x10^33/5.19229686x10^33! Seems big enough, but not for us! Since we're red anyways, lets cast a Furnace of Rath, Dictate of the Twin Gods, and a Fire Servant! Now it's time to Fling your guy, dealing a spicy 4.15383749x10^34 damage to your opponent. To put that in perspective, there are an estimated 3x10^23 stars in the known universe. You dealt more damage than there are stars. That'll give your opponent something to think about. PROTIP: Dodge Spellskite decks
Bloodbraid Elf is the natural foil to Jace and is a good choice. The problem with Bitterblossom is it goes into the same deck as Jace. Fae with Jace and BB is just going to be obnoxious.
Fae historically has used Jace Beleren, not TMS, due to not having time to tap out for 4 mana. But that was with the old PW rule.
Wizards has said Bridge from Below isn't really a magic card and so the current position of banning GGT and Dread Return while leaving it legal is strange.
What do you mean isn't a real magic card? Why would that prevent them from banning it?
Unban Second Sunrise and Green Sun's Zenith. Ban Remand and Urza's Power Plant. Format fixed.
Second sunrise is a profoundly unfun card and eggs or whatever it was called actually convinced several players trying out modern for the first time to say "hell no" to the format. We almost lost our one modern FNM a month and it was only after considerable begging/pleading to all parties involved that it resumed.
Wasn't it banned because it created "toolkit" style green decks. The format has changed since then and it could possibly be at the right power level now. We already have Chord of Calling and that seems like the much better tutor for silver bullets.
i think it is a very bad idea to unrestrict the 9th card in term of sheer power in the history of magic after black lotus, the moxen, time walk and ancestral recall
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Wizards has said Bridge from Below isn't really a magic card and so the current position of banning GGT and Dread Return while leaving it legal is strange.
What do you mean isn't a real magic card? Why would that prevent them from banning it?
It's not a "real" Magic card because it doesn't actually do anything if you cast it. It could cost 0 or BBBBBBBBBBBB and have the same effect because it only operates in the GY. As for why they couldn't unban Dread Return and Troll and ban Bridge, it's cause you're still just unbanning cards that are asking to be broken with no real upside for the format. You don't play those cards in "fair" decks, so from a competitive standpoint they shouldn't be unbanned no matter what.
How is a t2 Dredge/Reanimator deck not an upside? The goal is to have the greatest number of viable decks, which unbanning Dread Return and GGT would do. The point of banning powerful cards is to prevent them from centralizing the meta. Bridgeless Dredge could easily lose a game to a Remand. Without the army of free 2/2s it just isn't the broken deck that people think Dredge is.
Wasn't it banned because it created "toolkit" style green decks. The format has changed since then and it could possibly be at the right power level now. We already have Chord of Calling and that seems like the much better tutor for silver bullets.
Chord of calling being better than Green Sun's in any capacity is ludicrous. Without the flexibility of being able to get Dryad Arbor and function at base value as Llanowar Elves, chord is rather overpriced and is only seeing play in combo decks.
How is a t2 Dredge/Reanimator deck not an upside? The goal is to have the greatest number of viable decks, which unbanning Dread Return and GGT would do. The point of banning powerful cards is to prevent them from centralizing the meta. Bridgeless Dredge could easily lose a game to a Remand. Without the army of free 2/2s it just isn't the broken deck that people think Dredge is.
I think you underestimate Bridgeless Dredge. It is still very easy to spew out Narcomoeba and Bloodghast, sacrificing them to Dread Return, and reanimating Iona or Griselbrand on turn 3.
However it remains to be seen if this would end up being a consistent turn 2/3 deck or not.
I think you underestimate Bridgeless Dredge. It is still very easy to spew out Narcomoeba and Bloodghast, sacrificing them to Dread Return, and reanimating Iona or Griselbrand on turn 3.
However it remains to be seen if this would end up being a consistent turn 2/3 deck or not.
Even if it was a consistent turn 3 deck it would be fine. Technically, it doesn't win on turn 3. It is also incredibly weak to disruption. It is easy to reanimate Griselbrand or Iona on turn 3 in Modern with cascade spells= Breaking // Entering. That doesn't see play because it is weak to disruption. That deck would be too.
I see what you did there!
I would rather just see one card banned at a time that could impact format like bitterblossom then cards like grave troll that will only have zero impact on the format.
"Won't have any impact on the format" is not a reason to leave a card on the banned list.
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That was only half of his reasoning. With a card like Grave Troll there are really only 2 things that will happen. Nothing or a broken deck. Why unban something that may be broken when there is no actual upside to unbanning it?
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Only 2 things can happen with Sorrow's Path. Nothing or a broken deck.
The part of Dredge that breaks magic isn't the dredge mechanics, it's Bridge from Below. Golgari Grave-Troll and Dread Return are cards that could allow for a graveyard based deck that still plays magic. You can fight Dread Return with removal and counterspells and having it answered is a huge blow, assuming the opponent doesn't get 6 or 9 free 2/2s out of the deal. Wizards has said Bridge from Below isn't really a magic card and so the current position of banning GGT and Dread Return while leaving it legal is strange. Dredge without Ichorid or Bridge from Below would be a weird Reanimator variant that would be playable without being broken.
Tell me how one extra milled card above Stinkweed Imp is enough to take dredge from unplayable to a broken deck. Is all a broken dredge deck missing is one more big dredger?
MAYBE, MAYBE unbanning Grave-Troll would create a playable deck based around the dredge mechanic. There's no way that it would suddenly break the format, though.
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The mistake you are making is comparing Troll to Imp. Troll doesn't replace Imp. It replaces the 4th best dredge card, Shambling Shell. Now we're talking about "drawing" an extra 3 cards per turn. Add in Faithless Looting amd we're looking at 9 cards per turn over what dresge decks can do right now (which by the way have performed at events like PTs). You are risking breaking the format for you yourself admit doesn't actually help the format.
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As I said,
What are you doing with all that dredging, considering Dread Return would still be banned?
And what dredge decks have performed at events like PTs? No dredge decks posted 18 or more points at EITHER of the Modern PTs.
https://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/eventcoverage/ptrtr12/topmoderndecks
(http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/eventcoverage/ptphi11/topmoderndecks
As long as Dread Return is banned, Grave Troll can be safely unbanned. It is not the missing piece of a broken dredge deck. Something to actually do with all that dredging is.
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Nothing
Unban
Bitterblossom
-This seems powerful, but very safe.
-It will make Jund very good, and will enable a Fae deck.
Wild Nacatl
-try attacking through tarmogoyf
-aggro (sans Affinity) sucks
Ancestal Visions
-Modern lacks a control deck. This is kinda risky, but would worth a shot
Golgari Grave-Troll
-Wouldn't do anything
Ban
-I don't think anything needs to be banned.
Unban
Earthcraft and Black Vice don't seem too broken.
Ban
Format seems healthy enough.
EDH Decks
UWB Oloro, Ageless Ascetic's spring of life
RUG Animar, Soul of the Elements and friends... lots of them
WBG Karador king of two worlds (value and attrition)
WRKalemne's Angels
BRUG Yidris's Wild Party
UWBR Breya's Terrifying Tinker Toys
UBR The Pretender
Bloodbraid Elf
Wild Nacatl
Seething Song
Bitterblossom
He's good, but he's not invincible.
DCI Level 1 Judge
Unfortunately, they won't unban Seething Song as they do not like spell-based combo decks.
How? It does nothing in the late game and doesn't do anything until turn 5 at best. Also, Control needs the help. Why should Midrange get cards like DRS, Goyf, and Bob while Control only gets Snapcaster Mage as a Legacy power-level card?
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
For your legacy choices, I strongly disagree with black vise. Wizards and a large amount of legacy players like the idea of card advantage in the hand. And no matter what deck you're playing, black vise starts a clock right away... Which isn't the way it should always go... Its just not a card that is fun to play or play against
Shout out to commandercast for keeping me entertained.
Bloodbraid Elf is the natural foil to Jace and is a good choice. The problem with Bitterblossom is it goes into the same deck as Jace. Fae with Jace and BB is just going to be obnoxious.
Standard Mardu Midrange
Modern 4 Colour Delver, Naya Midrange
CommanderSidisi 1v1, Sliver Overlord, Intet the Dreamer, Mayael the Anima (shameless plug http://youtu.be/4zu4QRvGSo8)
/sarcasm.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Fae historically has used Jace Beleren, not TMS, due to not having time to tap out for 4 mana. But that was with the old PW rule.
Current post- Grand Prix KC Modern Postmortem (7/7/13)
What do you mean isn't a real magic card? Why would that prevent them from banning it?
Second sunrise is a profoundly unfun card and eggs or whatever it was called actually convinced several players trying out modern for the first time to say "hell no" to the format. We almost lost our one modern FNM a month and it was only after considerable begging/pleading to all parties involved that it resumed.
Wasn't it banned because it created "toolkit" style green decks. The format has changed since then and it could possibly be at the right power level now. We already have Chord of Calling and that seems like the much better tutor for silver bullets.
For cards that could be unbanned...
Modern-Bitterblossom, Wild Nacatl, Golgari Grave-Troll,and Ancestral Vision.
Legacy-Earthcraft, Mind Twist, and Mind's Desire.
Vintage-Library of Alexandria and Gifts Ungiven could be unrestricted.
i think it is a very bad idea to unrestrict the 9th card in term of sheer power in the history of magic after black lotus, the moxen, time walk and ancestral recall
EDH: Varolz, the Scar-Striped
It's not a "real" Magic card because it doesn't actually do anything if you cast it. It could cost 0 or BBBBBBBBBBBB and have the same effect because it only operates in the GY. As for why they couldn't unban Dread Return and Troll and ban Bridge, it's cause you're still just unbanning cards that are asking to be broken with no real upside for the format. You don't play those cards in "fair" decks, so from a competitive standpoint they shouldn't be unbanned no matter what.
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Chord of calling being better than Green Sun's in any capacity is ludicrous. Without the flexibility of being able to get Dryad Arbor and function at base value as Llanowar Elves, chord is rather overpriced and is only seeing play in combo decks.
Draft it on Cubetutor!
I think you underestimate Bridgeless Dredge. It is still very easy to spew out Narcomoeba and Bloodghast, sacrificing them to Dread Return, and reanimating Iona or Griselbrand on turn 3.
However it remains to be seen if this would end up being a consistent turn 2/3 deck or not.
You said "drs" twice.
Also, you're bat**** insane.
Even if it was a consistent turn 3 deck it would be fine. Technically, it doesn't win on turn 3. It is also incredibly weak to disruption. It is easy to reanimate Griselbrand or Iona on turn 3 in Modern with cascade spells= Breaking // Entering. That doesn't see play because it is weak to disruption. That deck would be too.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.