I just would love one person to give a serious argument as to what DRS does that makes it deserving of a ban...
It doesn't pass the bolt test...
It can't do anything the turn it comes down...
All of its abilities are conditional of the correct cards being in the graveyard, and removing those cards weakens the best beater in the deck...
The "broken" DRS play is turn 1 fetch into DRS with liliana coming down on turn 2...that requires 3 cards in the hand from the get go and I can think of plenty other 3 cards in other top tier decks that can be a more "broken" combo...
Again, no one has said that DRS shaman isn't a GREAT card...but...
It doesn't enable a turn 4 win...
It doesn't win the game by itself...
It is the tiny little bonuses it gives that make is worth playing in a deck that is about tiny little advantages, whereas BBE allowed for the turn 4, almost turn 3 wins...
It is a powerful card. Therefore it could be banned. Simple as that. You can disagree with the policy, but you can't argue that that's not a reason it could be banned in Modern based on what we know about the banning policy we see as evidenced by the current list.
Nothing is getting banned, my bet is Grave Troll, Wild Nacatyl, and possibly Bitterblossom come back....
Bitterblossom is the least likely to get unbanned just from the simple fact people still remember the old fairies deck.
wild Nacatyl is an easy unban, it gives aggro players more options and it shakes up the meta game just enough to make sure decks have answers to aggro decks...... Not just hurkyl's recall.
would anyone be opposed to banning Tooth and Nail in EDH? I know it's great for combos, but it's also pretty great for instantly ending super fun and interesting games in the most boring way possible...
would anyone be opposed to banning Tooth and Nail in EDH? I know it's great for combos, but it's also pretty great for instantly ending super fun and interesting games in the most boring way possible...
The thing about Tooth and Nail is, if we're playing a super fun, interesting game, and someone TnN's for a two card infinite combo, my playgroup will just say, "Okay! You win. Now go sit over there." And we'll continue to play the game for "second place" i.e. the real winner.
That's the beauty of a casual, multiplayer format. The issue with Deadeye Navigator/Sylvan Primordial is that it doesn't win the game on the spot, so the above isn't always an option. Now, I don't necessarily believe either NEED to be banned, but it does explain why people want them banned while ignoring instant wins with TnN. (Unless my playgroup is the only one in the world that has come up with the above solution to instant win infinite combos:p)
would anyone be opposed to banning Tooth and Nail in EDH? I know it's great for combos, but it's also pretty great for instantly ending super fun and interesting games in the most boring way possible...
It can also set up some really fun games or allow for great comebacks. Cards should not be banned because they can be abused, they should be banned if they nearly always lead to unwinnable game states or cause game states that are inherently unfun. Tooth and Nail does not fit this category.
Goblin Electromancer should have been banned instead of Seething Song.
If Pod was the best deck, it wouldn't be dropping in popularity on MTGO and it would be doing better at Grand Prix.
modern on modo is generally used for testing though, as opposed to just general modo play.
the reasons i gave for it putting up fewer results are the same reasons for it losing popularity. the deck punishes the player in long tournament situations. you need to play the most skill intensive deck flawlessly for 9-12 rounds each day. that is extremely difficult to do and very self defeating. as for the electromancer ban, i don't think you're incorrect, but it was probably too soon for the card to be banned just after it's release, so they banned seething song instead.
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Nothing Modern:
Cruel Control, UR Delver, RUG midrange, Akroma's Elfmorial EDH:
Animar, Chainer, Derevi the Stonehewer Mystic, Nekusar
The thing about Tooth and Nail is, if we're playing a super fun, interesting game, and someone TnN's for a two card infinite combo, my playgroup will just say, "Okay! You win. Now go sit over there." And we'll continue to play the game for "second place" i.e. the real winner.
That's the beauty of a casual, multiplayer format. The issue with Deadeye Navigator/Sylvan Primordial is that it doesn't win the game on the spot, so the above isn't always an option. Now, I don't necessarily believe either NEED to be banned, but it does explain why people want them banned while ignoring instant wins with TnN. (Unless my playgroup is the only one in the world that has come up with the above solution to instant win infinite combos:p)
"Real winner."
Okay.
So then when the "Real winner" wins, do you tell him to go away and then play for third, i.e. the "real real winner"?
Sylvan Primordial (or anything else for that matter associated with it, like Deadeye Navigator ) should remain unbanned indefinitely.
EDH players have been asking for support outside of their yearly Commander sets ever since the format formed and when WotC finally did devote set slots for niche EDH cards people complain that their special snowflake format was being ruined. In a freak scenario where I was playing EDH and Sylvan Primordial, ideally you only have two options; try and stop me or roll over and die.
modern on modo is generally used for testing though, as opposed to just general modo play.
the reasons i gave for it putting up fewer results are the same reasons for it losing popularity. the deck punishes the player in long tournament situations. you need to play the most skill intensive deck flawlessly for 9-12 rounds each day. that is extremely difficult to do and very self defeating. as for the electromancer ban, i don't think you're incorrect, but it was probably too soon for the card to be banned just after it's release, so they banned seething song instead.
Actually no, MTGO is the Modern meta as a whole. It is constantly changing with players adapting to new strategies. It is much more indicative of the health of the format than the paper meta. Also, the deck being hard to play didn't stop it from winning before, so obviously it isn't good anymore or else it would still be winning. Also, I don't get why Electromancer couldn't have been banned because it was too soon. Wizards would prefer to ban several decks out of the format that weren't dominating (Hive Mind, Dragonstorm, Ritual Gifts, AIR) than admit that they were wrong? I don't think so.
"Real winner."
Okay.
So then when the "Real winner" wins, do you tell him to go away and then play for third, i.e. the "real real winner"?
No.
I don't understand your point.
Edit: I get the snark now. And i'm kind of confused. TnNing for Mik+Trisk isn't fun, and is a disappointing way to end a game. We acknowledge that the player won, but then we finish the game. because the game was fun. and the point of EDH is to have fun. Cards that "just win" are, in my opinion, easier to self-police than stuff like deadeye + primordial.
That said, I don't necesarilly think either need to be banned, they havent really been a problem in my playgroup.
Has any reason been given for delaying the banned list update? I feel like if the announcemnent was simply "no changes" we'd have it already.
Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but it seems like either they were wrestling with a decision or were concerned with the impact on a particular event?
I've been hearing this from people who are knowledgeable of WOTC. The rumor about Emrakul does make sense.
I think unbanning Bitterblossom opens up the UB Fae archetype which frankly runs over Jund. I also don't think WOTC wants to unban BBE or Jace the Mind Sculptor. Jitte is balanced enough to put Aggro decks back on the map, and still many answers exist for it to be dealt with. The legend rule makes it more likely because both players can have it out. Wild Nactl should also be unbanned because Aggro currently is only some part of the format. Cranial Plating is the reason Affinity is good right now so why not neuter that and make it not unstoppable.
The big scary decks in Modern:
Affinity
Twin
Jund
I think they are going to stop 1 or 2 of those.
Just my two cents
Incorrect on the Emrakul call. WOTC does not ban the fatties, but the enablers. Also, there is always the chance the better and better creatures will be released which makes creature bans even more obsolete since the power of the "combos" jsut keeps rising. So basically, Emrakul is not your offender, it is Show and Tell.And even this card doesnt seem to be getting a ban.
If I was going to request a legacy ban it would be show and tell. I hate that card.
Thankfully, hatred of a card is not sufficient grounds to ban something.
There's only one card that should really be considered for banning right now in legacy: Brainstorm. Of course, that's also the sacred cow. Everyone loves playing it, no one wants to admit that it's a problem, and most of us are happy to carry on with it. I know I'd hate to see it go. That doesn't mean it's not a problem.
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Retired Legacy: Merfolk, Goblins, Jund, Delver, Reanimator
Has any reason been given for delaying the banned list update? I feel like if the announcemnent was simply "no changes" we'd have it already.
Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but it seems like either they were wrestling with a decision or were concerned with the impact on a particular event?
The announcement was not delayed per se. It is being given the Monday after prerelease, which is when they said they would announce them when they tied B&R to set releases. The last few were given a week early because of internal conflicts.
Don't even start with your crap in this thread too. Everyone knows that you and your playgroup hate combo and refuse to acknowledge it as a legitimate strategy for whatever reason.
I honestly don't think I've ever talked about my playgroup ONCE on these forums. Why are you so angry? Regardless, we play combo all the time... when we break out our legacy and modern decks. And plenty of people run comboish EDH decks, the most notable right now being a purphoros brew.
Also, did you miss the part where I said the combo cards should remain unbanned?
I actually think an emrakul ban is quite possible. I know that wizards tends to ban the enablers first, but emrakul might be an exception. He's just "too fatty." Because emrakul exists, why would you cheat in anything else? Banning emrakul would give other targets more of a shot, taking away the unequivocally best sneak in target.
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I actually think an emrakul ban is quite possible. I know that wizards tends to ban the enablers first, but emrakul might be an exception. He's just "too fatty." Because emrakul exists, why would you cheat in anything else? Banning emrakul would give other targets more of a shot, taking away the unequivocally best sneak in target.
I think Griselbrand is more likely to get the axe, if they do want to go that route.
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I seriously doubt that there are going to be any changes to Modern. Every time the announcement is imminent, everyone always gets all worked up over their favorite cards being unbanned, or new bans on the top tier decks to shake up the format, but history has shown that they aren't going to act unless they feel it is absolutely necessary.
The risk vs. reward for unbanning a card is so heavily tilted to leaving it banned. If they unban the wrong card and then have to immediately ban it again, it makes them look incompetent and people will lose faith in their ability to manage the game. They are already treading on thin ice due to how many "adjustments" they've had to make to the format thus far.
On the other hand, unbanning the right card doesn't really bring anything of great value to the table. I mean, I can get behind an unbanning of Bitterblossom, but the prospect of Fae being a viable deck isn't exactly something that overwhelms me with excitement. That deck was played to death years ago. I'd rather see them print new cards that somehow make entirely new decks viable.
I would like to see Bitterblossom and Grave Troll unbanned in modern next week
You know, i've finally started to come around on bitterblossom. The success of abrupt decay as a multi-format playable makes me think it's a safe unban. That said, I don't think it's actually going to happen. Wizards is (perhaps understandably) terrified of faeries.
Each color (can't think of black one at moment) has at least 1 8+ mana spell that says YOU WIN.
As it should be, really. Games have to end at some point, to move on to the next.
Omni requires more to win. It requires things to cast for free, either more expensive then 10 mana you just spent, or card draw to be lots of them.
If I'm letting you do all that, you deserve to win.
I should be disrupting you, either with counters, discard, land destruction, or just punching you with creatures long before all that happens.
I would like to see Bitterblossom and Grave Troll unbanned in modern next week
Maybe Omniscience in EDH?
I would like to see bitterblossom unbanned but as for grave troll is its meaningless to unban it at this point. grave troll would either never be touched or be best enabler in a very broken deck.
At this point I want to see unbans that shake up the format a bit and not unban something that will never be considered in any deck ever in modern unless its completely broken.
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It is a powerful card. Therefore it could be banned. Simple as that. You can disagree with the policy, but you can't argue that that's not a reason it could be banned in Modern based on what we know about the banning policy we see as evidenced by the current list.
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Bitterblossom is the least likely to get unbanned just from the simple fact people still remember the old fairies deck.
wild Nacatyl is an easy unban, it gives aggro players more options and it shakes up the meta game just enough to make sure decks have answers to aggro decks...... Not just hurkyl's recall.
Grave Troll does what without dread return? Idk?
The thing about Tooth and Nail is, if we're playing a super fun, interesting game, and someone TnN's for a two card infinite combo, my playgroup will just say, "Okay! You win. Now go sit over there." And we'll continue to play the game for "second place" i.e. the real winner.
That's the beauty of a casual, multiplayer format. The issue with Deadeye Navigator/Sylvan Primordial is that it doesn't win the game on the spot, so the above isn't always an option. Now, I don't necessarily believe either NEED to be banned, but it does explain why people want them banned while ignoring instant wins with TnN. (Unless my playgroup is the only one in the world that has come up with the above solution to instant win infinite combos:p)
It can also set up some really fun games or allow for great comebacks. Cards should not be banned because they can be abused, they should be banned if they nearly always lead to unwinnable game states or cause game states that are inherently unfun. Tooth and Nail does not fit this category.
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modern on modo is generally used for testing though, as opposed to just general modo play.
the reasons i gave for it putting up fewer results are the same reasons for it losing popularity. the deck punishes the player in long tournament situations. you need to play the most skill intensive deck flawlessly for 9-12 rounds each day. that is extremely difficult to do and very self defeating. as for the electromancer ban, i don't think you're incorrect, but it was probably too soon for the card to be banned just after it's release, so they banned seething song instead.
Nothing
Modern:
Cruel Control, UR Delver, RUG midrange, Akroma's Elfmorial
EDH:
Animar, Chainer, Derevi the Stonehewer Mystic, Nekusar
"Real winner."
Okay.
So then when the "Real winner" wins, do you tell him to go away and then play for third, i.e. the "real real winner"?
EDH players have been asking for support outside of their yearly Commander sets ever since the format formed and when WotC finally did devote set slots for niche EDH cards people complain that their special snowflake format was being ruined. In a freak scenario where I was playing EDH and Sylvan Primordial, ideally you only have two options; try and stop me or roll over and die.
Actually no, MTGO is the Modern meta as a whole. It is constantly changing with players adapting to new strategies. It is much more indicative of the health of the format than the paper meta. Also, the deck being hard to play didn't stop it from winning before, so obviously it isn't good anymore or else it would still be winning. Also, I don't get why Electromancer couldn't have been banned because it was too soon. Wizards would prefer to ban several decks out of the format that weren't dominating (Hive Mind, Dragonstorm, Ritual Gifts, AIR) than admit that they were wrong? I don't think so.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
No.
I don't understand your point.
Edit: I get the snark now. And i'm kind of confused. TnNing for Mik+Trisk isn't fun, and is a disappointing way to end a game. We acknowledge that the player won, but then we finish the game. because the game was fun. and the point of EDH is to have fun. Cards that "just win" are, in my opinion, easier to self-police than stuff like deadeye + primordial.
That said, I don't necesarilly think either need to be banned, they havent really been a problem in my playgroup.
Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but it seems like either they were wrestling with a decision or were concerned with the impact on a particular event?
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Incorrect on the Emrakul call. WOTC does not ban the fatties, but the enablers. Also, there is always the chance the better and better creatures will be released which makes creature bans even more obsolete since the power of the "combos" jsut keeps rising. So basically, Emrakul is not your offender, it is Show and Tell.And even this card doesnt seem to be getting a ban.
Thankfully, hatred of a card is not sufficient grounds to ban something.
There's only one card that should really be considered for banning right now in legacy: Brainstorm. Of course, that's also the sacred cow. Everyone loves playing it, no one wants to admit that it's a problem, and most of us are happy to carry on with it. I know I'd hate to see it go. That doesn't mean it's not a problem.
Standard: I, for one, welcome our new rhinoceros overlords
Modern: Pod's dead, Bob's back.
Legacy: Lands, Deathblade, Death and Taxes, Elves, MUD
Retired Legacy: Merfolk, Goblins, Jund, Delver, Reanimator
The announcement was not delayed per se. It is being given the Monday after prerelease, which is when they said they would announce them when they tied B&R to set releases. The last few were given a week early because of internal conflicts.
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I honestly don't think I've ever talked about my playgroup ONCE on these forums. Why are you so angry? Regardless, we play combo all the time... when we break out our legacy and modern decks. And plenty of people run comboish EDH decks, the most notable right now being a purphoros brew.
Also, did you miss the part where I said the combo cards should remain unbanned?
Whenever a player taps a nonbasic land, [Card] deals 2 damage to them.
-or-
R
Whenever a player would gain life, flip a coin. If heads, that player loses that much life instead. If tails sacrifice [card] and that player gains that life as per usual.
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I think Griselbrand is more likely to get the axe, if they do want to go that route.
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Maybe Omniscience in EDH?
what is degenerate about that?
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You win the game when you resolve it.
The risk vs. reward for unbanning a card is so heavily tilted to leaving it banned. If they unban the wrong card and then have to immediately ban it again, it makes them look incompetent and people will lose faith in their ability to manage the game. They are already treading on thin ice due to how many "adjustments" they've had to make to the format thus far.
On the other hand, unbanning the right card doesn't really bring anything of great value to the table. I mean, I can get behind an unbanning of Bitterblossom, but the prospect of Fae being a viable deck isn't exactly something that overwhelms me with excitement. That deck was played to death years ago. I'd rather see them print new cards that somehow make entirely new decks viable.
You know, i've finally started to come around on bitterblossom. The success of abrupt decay as a multi-format playable makes me think it's a safe unban. That said, I don't think it's actually going to happen. Wizards is (perhaps understandably) terrified of faeries.
In that case, also banned:
Each color (can't think of black one at moment) has at least 1 8+ mana spell that says YOU WIN.
As it should be, really. Games have to end at some point, to move on to the next.
Omni requires more to win. It requires things to cast for free, either more expensive then 10 mana you just spent, or card draw to be lots of them.
If I'm letting you do all that, you deserve to win.
I should be disrupting you, either with counters, discard, land destruction, or just punching you with creatures long before all that happens.
I would like to see bitterblossom unbanned but as for grave troll is its meaningless to unban it at this point. grave troll would either never be touched or be best enabler in a very broken deck.
At this point I want to see unbans that shake up the format a bit and not unban something that will never be considered in any deck ever in modern unless its completely broken.