how can you play the myojin with the divinity counter on turn 3?
how can you you play tooth and nail on turn 3?
how can you omniscience on turn 3?
how can i play sylvan primordial on turn 3 two times? flash and reanimate
i get that you have to be the hipster pro player who says "if your combo doesn't win on the spot is worst tha X+Y combo and it's bad", but sylvan primordial is a real problem and the faster the RC deal with it, the better
If anything, the time to unban a card would be a few months before the PTQ season starts in the summer, so the metagame has time to absorb it on MTGO, at GPs and GPTs, and at local paper events. Likeliest unban is Bitterblossom or Nacatl (and my poor GGT but he's not even worth mentioning at this point).
One can hope, but I have no faith in Wizards changing anything.
how can you play the myojin with the divinity counter on turn 3?
how can you you play tooth and nail on turn 3?
how can you omniscience on turn 3?
how can i play sylvan primordial on turn 3 two times? flash and reanimate
i get that you have to be the hipster pro player who says "if your combo doesn't win on the spot is worst tha X+Y combo and it's bad", but sylvan primordial is a real problem and the faster the RC deal with it, the better
Show and Tell+Omniscience, Academy Rector+any sac outlet+any ramp and probably other easy combinations. I've seen people hit 8 mana on turn 3 plenty of times with the incredible degenerate power of Sol Ring, Mana Crypt and Mana Vault. There are also ways to cast spells for free by turn 3 even if you can't ramp into Tooth and Nail (although I've seen people combo without entwining it just by lucking into both in hand).
I can't tell you the last time I've lost to Primordial, but that might just be because I'm actually a competent EDH player.
Show and Tell+Omniscience, Academy Rector+any sac outlet+any ramp and probably other easy combinations. I've seen people hit 8 mana on turn 3 plenty of times with the incredible degenerate power of Sol Ring, Mana Crypt and Mana Vault. There are also ways to cast spells for free by turn 3 even if you can't ramp into Tooth and Nail (although I've seen people combo without entwining it just by lucking into both in hand).
I can't tell you the last time I've lost to Primordial, but that might just be because I'm actually a competent EDH player.
Or you just care more about winning than having fun... probably the latter.
Commander: ban Deadeye Navigator.
It makes the game unfun in combination with so many cards; if it could only blink another creature it wouldn't be too bad, but being able to protect itself from removal is just silly.
Or you just care more about winning than having fun... probably the latter.
In which case you lose to everything else that has been mentioned (and a million other things) in even more devastating fashion. You may not like having a land blown up, but at least you get a chance to untap against Primordial. Other cards/combos that are just as easy to pull off don't give you that chance.
It's really not complicated. Sylvan isn't less fun than countless other things (I doubt anyone thinks it's less fun than cards like Ravages of War, Mind Twist, Stasis, Blood Moon, Boil, etc.), it's not more powerful than countless other things (look at the actually good decks - some might include Sylvan for late game value but that isn't even remotely their goal and they've probably already killed you or locked you out by turn 3) and it's not more of an auto-include than plenty of other things (I guarantee a higher percentage of green decks don't run Sylvan Primordial than decks that don't run Sol Ring). There's literally no reason to ban it besides that you probably run into it more often in your bad, casual meta because it doesn't cost any money and is obviously a "splashy" effect that looks like you're getting unbeatably far ahead (bad players love those effects).
I can see GGT coming off the Modern list if they leave Dread Return on. Ancestral Vision is MAYBE okay, the only existing decks that would run it would be UWR, U-Tron, and maybe storm. With BBT banned there's no risk of cascade goodstuff running rampant. Sword of the Meek definitely cannot come off though; Thopter Foundry + Sword combo would become the go-to control shell and would be oppressive. Bitterblossom and Wild Nacatl are more likely unbans than any of these though. Deathrite Shaman could get the axe, but I doubt it. Why would they ban SSG?
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Deadeye Navigator really should get a ban, because it's typically the problem.
You could ban Sylvan Primordial, but right after that another problem card would just show up.
Not only does Deadeye Navigator give insane amounts of triggers, it gives any creature bound with it resilience to removal. Targeted removal is basically worthless. Sac effects and edicts MIGHT get you there, but that's going to heavily depend on board state. A board wipe will do it, but you're not going to be able to stop them from going off several times in response.
If they didn't keep pushing ETB/187 effects, it would be fine. But they are, and they will. This card is bad for the format because it really starts to place a limit on what kind of effects you CAN put on a creature. If it's only realistic that you can blink a creature a few times, you can put much more powerful abilities on creatures. But when you can do it a half dozen or more times during someone's end step?
It'd rather have those better, scarier creatures than more mediocre creatures that I can spam activations of with Deadeye Navigator.
When the ability costs more, can be done less frequently or the combo doesn't protect itself, it becomes a whole lot less oppressive. Plus, as you can see you're not destroying someone's ability to play that sort of deck, just nerfing the power level.
Legacy: unban Survival of the Fittest.
Now that we have Deathrite Shaman, Abrupt Decay and, to a lesser extent, Scavenging Ooze to help keep it in check, release my favorite card of all time into the format please.
Commander: ban Deadeye Navigator.
It makes the game unfun in combination with so many cards; if it could only blink another creature it wouldn't be too bad, but being able to protect itself from removal is just silly.
Survival is never going to happen. It has nothing to do with graveyard interactions. Some of the best Survival decks are just straight combo or control decks. The Vengevine deck is just one of many broken Survival decks.
Not only does Deadeye Navigator give insane amounts of triggers, it gives any creature bound with it resilience to removal. Targeted removal is basically worthless.
This is why it's so easy to dismiss complaints about Navigator and Primordial as pointless whining by bad players. This is completely false. Deadeye either gives you the ability to blink something repeatedly OR it protects you from removal. It doesn't do both except against sorcery speed targetted removal (which is almost completely unplayable in EDH anyway).
Good players know that against the removal you should actually be playing, Deadeye will only ever allow you to blink something once before it or the blink target is dead. Respond to the trigger when it enters the battlefield. Tadah.
Commander: ban Deadeye Navigator.
It makes the game unfun in combination with so many cards; if it could only blink another creature it wouldn't be too bad, but being able to protect itself from removal is just silly.
I couldn't agree more with unbanning Survival of the fittest. I love that card. I remember pulling it out of a pack back in the day. If it got the unban I would instantly pick up another 3 to complete a set.
BTW, I still haven't seen it posted yet, when do they announce the changes if any to the banned list?
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Ponder and Preordain were banned because they made UR combo decks too consistent. Splinter Twin and Scapeshift are the only Tier 1 UR combo decks in Modern right now, and neither of those break the turn 4 rule. Because of this, they should be unbanned so that tempo will be playable.
so until you list this "other easy combinations", 2 ways. for silvan primordial there is the way i listed to play it two times, but there are a lot of other ways, like the two you listed, they work for your "better cards" but can also work for silvan primordial, while the cards i listed can't work for myojin or tooth and nail. you can also use entomb+exhume or natural order to play primordial from your library on turn 3. there surely are more "unfair" cards than primordial, but it is far easier to cheat into play.
i would like to argue what is a "competent EDH player" (it's nothing to be proud of in my opinion), however this is isn't the right place. so i'll just tell you that EDH isn't tailored for "competent players" and the RC doesn't decide which card to ban with them in mind. "create fun factor" and "encourage deck diversity" are way more important factors than "how much the competent player can deal with it"
Because clearly everyone's building nothing but decks that abuse Primordial by repeatedly blinking him and/or getting him out on turn 3. That's definitely what's happening.
Yeah, I don't get why sword is banned. I mean, I know the combo with thopter foundry, but it's not an auto-win like twin and it requires a mana investment every turn. You also can lose after assembling your combo.
Because clearly everyone's building nothing but decks that abuse Primordial by repeatedly blinking him and/or getting him out on turn 3. That's definitely what's happening.
It's a post by ilovesaprolings. He hates every semi-competitive EDH deck.
Yeah, getting out Sylvan Primordial is a pain. Yeah, it is an annoying card. But it's far less stable then those Hermit Druid abusing decks, or Ad Nauseum.combo. But his playgroup probably doesn't play those because Sylvan Primordial is too big a problem.
ilovesaprolings state that the RC bans cards based on:
Fun Factor
Format Diversity
The Fun Factor is highly different, but Primordial is certainly a far more fun and interactive card then, say, Ad Nauseum. So it doesn't fall in that catagory. In fact, name any card that was banned simply for "fun factor". Oh wait. There's none.
Format Diversity. Yes, Primordial is a near-staple in most Green builds. Not so much in 5 color and in 3-color his inclusion is already questionable. But he doesn't warp the format around him. If I play a Ux(non-G) deck, and you sit opposite of me with a Gx deck, do I go Bribery for your Primordial? No way, it won't benefit me nearly as much as, say, your Terastodon. That was the problem with Primeval Titan, it benefits everyone to have one, so every deck tried to copy or steal it. Sylvan Primordial is a powerful weapon in a Green player's hands, but here's the thing.
If you want to truly abuse Sylvan Primordial, you need to build a (semi)competitive deck. If you do so, then you don't fall within the group of players (usually the extremely casual ones) who wish to ban Primordial. And if you do go to a more competitive group with your cute Deadeye Primordial build, you'll get ran over by actually competent and possibly broken stuff.
If you have problems with a constantly blinking Primordial player, then maybe you should consider holding on to a quick kill spell the moment the Primordial abuser gets to 7 mana. The reanimate/cheat ways to get him out early also apply to early Terastodon, Jin Gitaxias, and various other much more dangerous creatures. Should we also ban those?
TL,DR: Primodial CAN be abused. Primordial CAN be dealt with. Primordial DOESNT warp the format.
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Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
I can see GGT coming off the Modern list if they leave Dread Return on. Ancestral Vision is MAYBE okay, the only existing decks that would run it would be UWR, U-Tron, and maybe storm. With BBT banned there's no risk of cascade goodstuff running rampant. Sword of the Meek definitely cannot come off though; Thopter Foundry + Sword combo would become the go-to control shell and would be oppressive. Bitterblossom and Wild Nacatl are more likely unbans than any of these though. Deathrite Shaman could get the axe, but I doubt it. Why would they ban SSG?
i believe they could ban SSG because my confidence in the wizard ban policy is below zero since the inception of modern and a Goryo deck just made day two at the last gran prix: given their hatred towards non interactive combos and the ban of Seeting Song i imagine that thay could ban other ridiculous cards
and are you really sure that Thopter+Sword combo is really playable in today modern, dominated by Abrupt Decay and DRS?
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EDH: Varolz, the Scar-Striped
the same things were said about primeval titan. "OMG you want a card that is stopped by torpor orb banned? LOL NOOB". except it was still banned.
hermit druid and ad nauseam are the most broken card in the format, how clever! except it is a matter that was discussed to death. RC explicitly said they not want to ban hermit druid (a decision i disagree with, but their choice), hermit druid.decks didn't receive any new toys, so it wouldn't be banned. but it's not like they won't ban any other card until they ban hermit druid and ad nauseam. they banned trade secrets, you know? a card that was banned not because of it's power level, not because it was a card that couldn't be played fairly. it was banned because it generates an incredibly unfun situation, where two players can draw their whole and make the other players irrelevant. hell, it doesn't even make its caster, it just led to an absurdly unfun situation, so it was banned. so don't come here and say that "fun factor" doesn't matter in EDH, just because it doesn't matter for you.
EDIT: how silly i was, i forget also about sundering titan. still weaker then ad nauseam, hermit druid, jin-git, etc etc, still banned. guess why?
Except people clearly find Primordial fun or they wouldn't play him. He's by no means the most powerful card and he isn't in the most powerful decks, so people play him because he's pretty powerful AND fun. I'll put Primordial in appropriate decks and I'm the guy who refuses to use Sol Ring even though it puts me at a disadvantage because I think it should be banned. It's not overpowered, it's not an autoinclude in any color combo besides maybe mono-green (and even then, there are better things to ramp out - the Eldrazi, Tooth & Nail, Craterhoof, Avenger) and people seem to enjoy using it.
We get it, you don't like having a land destroyed sometimes. You'll have to deal.
Except people clearly find Primordial fun or they wouldn't play him.
If people didn't play "unfun" cards there would be no need for a banlist. Emrakrul and Primeval Titan weren't exactly rare cards that only showed up in specific combo decks.
Don't know if Primordeal is getting banned, but it's definitely alike to those two cards in being "timmy traps", a big fatty with a splashy but effortlessly abuseable effect that goes into every green deck, and thereby warps the entire format. What's more insidious is that one Primeval alone isn't bad, but when half the table is playing it + normal recursion, and lands get exploded simply because nothing else is targetable, it starts raining on everyone's fun, even though it's often not any one individual's fault.
Except people clearly find Primordial fun or they wouldn't play him. He's by no means the most powerful card and he isn't in the most powerful decks, so people play him because he's pretty powerful AND fun. I'll put Primordial in appropriate decks and I'm the guy who refuses to use Sol Ring even though it puts me at a disadvantage because I think it should be banned. It's not overpowered, it's not an autoinclude in any color combo besides maybe mono-green (and even then, there are better things to ramp out - the Eldrazi, Tooth & Nail, Craterhoof, Avenger) and people seem to enjoy using it.
We get it, you don't like having a land destroyed sometimes. You'll have to deal.
Fun for the person playing it doesn't mean it's an overall fun card. I love playing combo like 4 horsemen, it's fun for me, but it is not fun for any opponent sitting for 40 minutes while I combo out, there for it is considered un-fun
A condescending comment about Modern without any form of explanation? Hah, that's a laugh.
There isn't anything degenerate going on Modern to warrant a ban, so WotC can test the waters by unbanning something.
It's not that I hate modern, in fact I agree that things should be unbanned, such as bitterblossom. Let the faeries come back. It's more that I feel the format is unhealthy as several archtypes are not currently present. Hence my comment.
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Show and Tell+Omniscience?
One can hope, but I have no faith in Wizards changing anything.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Show and Tell+Omniscience, Academy Rector+any sac outlet+any ramp and probably other easy combinations. I've seen people hit 8 mana on turn 3 plenty of times with the incredible degenerate power of Sol Ring, Mana Crypt and Mana Vault. There are also ways to cast spells for free by turn 3 even if you can't ramp into Tooth and Nail (although I've seen people combo without entwining it just by lucking into both in hand).
I can't tell you the last time I've lost to Primordial, but that might just be because I'm actually a competent EDH player.
Or you just care more about winning than having fun... probably the latter.
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Now that we have Deathrite Shaman, Abrupt Decay and, to a lesser extent, Scavenging Ooze to help keep it in check, release my favorite card of all time into the format please.
Commander: ban Deadeye Navigator.
It makes the game unfun in combination with so many cards; if it could only blink another creature it wouldn't be too bad, but being able to protect itself from removal is just silly.
Modern: i sincerly hope they will unban Golgari Grave-Troll, Ancestral Vision and Sword of the Meek beacause their bans are absolutely nonsense. The only new ban i hope they will ban is Deathrite Shaman but it is more probable they get crazy and ban Simian Spirit Guide
Legacy: unban Mind Twist
Vintage: no changes
Commander: no changes. i think there are cards that deserve a ban more than Deadeye Navigator like Hermit druid
EDH: Varolz, the Scar-Striped
In which case you lose to everything else that has been mentioned (and a million other things) in even more devastating fashion. You may not like having a land blown up, but at least you get a chance to untap against Primordial. Other cards/combos that are just as easy to pull off don't give you that chance.
It's really not complicated. Sylvan isn't less fun than countless other things (I doubt anyone thinks it's less fun than cards like Ravages of War, Mind Twist, Stasis, Blood Moon, Boil, etc.), it's not more powerful than countless other things (look at the actually good decks - some might include Sylvan for late game value but that isn't even remotely their goal and they've probably already killed you or locked you out by turn 3) and it's not more of an auto-include than plenty of other things (I guarantee a higher percentage of green decks don't run Sylvan Primordial than decks that don't run Sol Ring). There's literally no reason to ban it besides that you probably run into it more often in your bad, casual meta because it doesn't cost any money and is obviously a "splashy" effect that looks like you're getting unbeatably far ahead (bad players love those effects).
I can see GGT coming off the Modern list if they leave Dread Return on. Ancestral Vision is MAYBE okay, the only existing decks that would run it would be UWR, U-Tron, and maybe storm. With BBT banned there's no risk of cascade goodstuff running rampant. Sword of the Meek definitely cannot come off though; Thopter Foundry + Sword combo would become the go-to control shell and would be oppressive. Bitterblossom and Wild Nacatl are more likely unbans than any of these though. Deathrite Shaman could get the axe, but I doubt it. Why would they ban SSG?
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You could ban Sylvan Primordial, but right after that another problem card would just show up.
Not only does Deadeye Navigator give insane amounts of triggers, it gives any creature bound with it resilience to removal. Targeted removal is basically worthless. Sac effects and edicts MIGHT get you there, but that's going to heavily depend on board state. A board wipe will do it, but you're not going to be able to stop them from going off several times in response.
If they didn't keep pushing ETB/187 effects, it would be fine. But they are, and they will. This card is bad for the format because it really starts to place a limit on what kind of effects you CAN put on a creature. If it's only realistic that you can blink a creature a few times, you can put much more powerful abilities on creatures. But when you can do it a half dozen or more times during someone's end step?
It'd rather have those better, scarier creatures than more mediocre creatures that I can spam activations of with Deadeye Navigator.
It's not like you can't explore the exact space at a higher cost with Conjurer's Closet, Nephalia Smuggler, Cloudshift, Momentary Blink and Venser, the Sojourner and Mistmeadow Witch.
When the ability costs more, can be done less frequently or the combo doesn't protect itself, it becomes a whole lot less oppressive. Plus, as you can see you're not destroying someone's ability to play that sort of deck, just nerfing the power level.
Survival is never going to happen. It has nothing to do with graveyard interactions. Some of the best Survival decks are just straight combo or control decks. The Vengevine deck is just one of many broken Survival decks.
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This is why it's so easy to dismiss complaints about Navigator and Primordial as pointless whining by bad players. This is completely false. Deadeye either gives you the ability to blink something repeatedly OR it protects you from removal. It doesn't do both except against sorcery speed targetted removal (which is almost completely unplayable in EDH anyway).
Good players know that against the removal you should actually be playing, Deadeye will only ever allow you to blink something once before it or the blink target is dead. Respond to the trigger when it enters the battlefield. Tadah.
I couldn't agree more with unbanning Survival of the fittest. I love that card. I remember pulling it out of a pack back in the day. If it got the unban I would instantly pick up another 3 to complete a set.
BTW, I still haven't seen it posted yet, when do they announce the changes if any to the banned list?
RIP Batman guy. I hope somebody picks up the slack now that you are gone. Sick children need their Batman.
I would play alot more modern if I could use ancestral visions and preordains.
I invision a future where one is not mighty when he can silence a crowd with brutality,
but when he leaves them speechless with wisdom.
Won't happen. Ponder was insta banned for a reason.
edit ban thragtusk oh wait....
I buy HP and Damaged cards!
Only EDH:
Sigarda, Host of Herons: Enchantress' Enchantments
Jenara, Asura of War: ETB Value Town
Purphoros, God of the Forge: Global Punishment
Xenagos, God of Revels: Ramp, Sneak, & Heavy Hitters
Ghave, Guru of Spores: Dies_to_Doom_Blade's stax list
Edric, Spymaster of Trest: Donald's list
Ponder and Preordain were banned because they made UR combo decks too consistent. Splinter Twin and Scapeshift are the only Tier 1 UR combo decks in Modern right now, and neither of those break the turn 4 rule. Because of this, they should be unbanned so that tempo will be playable.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Because clearly everyone's building nothing but decks that abuse Primordial by repeatedly blinking him and/or getting him out on turn 3. That's definitely what's happening.
Yeah, I don't get why sword is banned. I mean, I know the combo with thopter foundry, but it's not an auto-win like twin and it requires a mana investment every turn. You also can lose after assembling your combo.
It's a post by ilovesaprolings. He hates every semi-competitive EDH deck.
Yeah, getting out Sylvan Primordial is a pain. Yeah, it is an annoying card. But it's far less stable then those Hermit Druid abusing decks, or Ad Nauseum.combo. But his playgroup probably doesn't play those because Sylvan Primordial is too big a problem.
ilovesaprolings state that the RC bans cards based on:
Fun Factor
Format Diversity
The Fun Factor is highly different, but Primordial is certainly a far more fun and interactive card then, say, Ad Nauseum. So it doesn't fall in that catagory. In fact, name any card that was banned simply for "fun factor". Oh wait. There's none.
Format Diversity. Yes, Primordial is a near-staple in most Green builds. Not so much in 5 color and in 3-color his inclusion is already questionable. But he doesn't warp the format around him. If I play a Ux(non-G) deck, and you sit opposite of me with a Gx deck, do I go Bribery for your Primordial? No way, it won't benefit me nearly as much as, say, your Terastodon. That was the problem with Primeval Titan, it benefits everyone to have one, so every deck tried to copy or steal it. Sylvan Primordial is a powerful weapon in a Green player's hands, but here's the thing.
If you want to truly abuse Sylvan Primordial, you need to build a (semi)competitive deck. If you do so, then you don't fall within the group of players (usually the extremely casual ones) who wish to ban Primordial. And if you do go to a more competitive group with your cute Deadeye Primordial build, you'll get ran over by actually competent and possibly broken stuff.
If you have problems with a constantly blinking Primordial player, then maybe you should consider holding on to a quick kill spell the moment the Primordial abuser gets to 7 mana. The reanimate/cheat ways to get him out early also apply to early Terastodon, Jin Gitaxias, and various other much more dangerous creatures. Should we also ban those?
TL,DR: Primodial CAN be abused. Primordial CAN be dealt with. Primordial DOESNT warp the format.
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
i believe they could ban SSG because my confidence in the wizard ban policy is below zero since the inception of modern and a Goryo deck just made day two at the last gran prix: given their hatred towards non interactive combos and the ban of Seeting Song i imagine that thay could ban other ridiculous cards
and are you really sure that Thopter+Sword combo is really playable in today modern, dominated by Abrupt Decay and DRS?
EDH: Varolz, the Scar-Striped
Except people clearly find Primordial fun or they wouldn't play him. He's by no means the most powerful card and he isn't in the most powerful decks, so people play him because he's pretty powerful AND fun. I'll put Primordial in appropriate decks and I'm the guy who refuses to use Sol Ring even though it puts me at a disadvantage because I think it should be banned. It's not overpowered, it's not an autoinclude in any color combo besides maybe mono-green (and even then, there are better things to ramp out - the Eldrazi, Tooth & Nail, Craterhoof, Avenger) and people seem to enjoy using it.
We get it, you don't like having a land destroyed sometimes. You'll have to deal.
If people didn't play "unfun" cards there would be no need for a banlist. Emrakrul and Primeval Titan weren't exactly rare cards that only showed up in specific combo decks.
Don't know if Primordeal is getting banned, but it's definitely alike to those two cards in being "timmy traps", a big fatty with a splashy but effortlessly abuseable effect that goes into every green deck, and thereby warps the entire format. What's more insidious is that one Primeval alone isn't bad, but when half the table is playing it + normal recursion, and lands get exploded simply because nothing else is targetable, it starts raining on everyone's fun, even though it's often not any one individual's fault.
Fun for the person playing it doesn't mean it's an overall fun card. I love playing combo like 4 horsemen, it's fun for me, but it is not fun for any opponent sitting for 40 minutes while I combo out, there for it is considered un-fun
A condescending comment about Modern without any form of explanation? Hah, that's a laugh.
There isn't anything degenerate going on Modern to warrant a ban, so WotC can test the waters by unbanning something.
It's not that I hate modern, in fact I agree that things should be unbanned, such as bitterblossom. Let the faeries come back. It's more that I feel the format is unhealthy as several archtypes are not currently present. Hence my comment.