It seems that WotC keeps unique lands to unique planes. Theros has scy lands, Ravnica has shocks. that being said, I wonder if the core set will have the onslaught reprints since that was dominaria...right? and then the return to zendikar will have the rest. I would be similar to what they did with M13 and innistrad check lands.
It seems that WotC keeps unique lands to unique planes. Theros has scy lands, Ravnica has shocks. that being said, I wonder if the core set will have the onslaught reprints since that was dominaria...right? and then the return to zendikar will have the rest. I would be similar to what they did with M13 and innistrad check lands.
Sometimes cards are flavoured to be linked with the setting in which they were printed (e.g. the "fastlands" from Scars of Mirrodin, and somewhat incongruously for such a versatile cycle but I digress) but the shocklands in particular were specifically given generic names so that they could be printed in any block. The fact that the setting of Ravnica was also brought back around the time they were to be reprinted was simply a useful opportunity. I believe they would have been reprinted by now even if there had been no Return to Ravnica, and WotC has specifically stated that they could be reprinted in any setting if need be. The fetchlands all have generic names as well and can be reprinted in pretty much any setting.
It seems that WotC keeps unique lands to unique planes. Theros has scy lands, Ravnica has shocks. that being said, I wonder if the core set will have the onslaught reprints since that was dominaria...right? and then the return to zendikar will have the rest. I would be similar to what they did with M13 and innistrad check lands.
Sometimes cards are flavoured to be linked with the setting in which they were printed (e.g. the "fastlands" from Scars of Mirrodin, and somewhat incongruously for such a versatile cycle but I digress) but the shocklands in particular were specifically given generic names so that they could be printed in any block. The fact that the setting of Ravnica was also brought back around the time they were to be reprinted was simply a useful opportunity. I believe they would have been reprinted by now even if there had been no Return to Ravnica, and WotC has specifically stated that they could be reprinted in any setting if need be. The fetchlands all have generic names as well and can be reprinted in pretty much any setting.
This. There is no need to be returning to zendikar in order to reprint fetch lands. I'd even argue that they shouldn't be in RTZ- with the hedrons open and the eldrazi roaming free, the roil should be lessened and in fact the mana of the plane should be close to consumed when we return so that there is a tension of trying to contain the eldrazi before they once again spread out into the multiverse. And that's IF we return at all, I would rather not see the eldrazi again until they have left a few dead planes in their wake to really drive home what a truly horrifying force they are.
Imagine this... New Phyrexia is compleat, Venser's knowledge is preserved and the phyrexians now have the technology to hop about the universe. The first place they go is Shandalar where they get ahold of and start compleating slivers. Things are looking grim on old Shandalar and then they get worse- Nicol Bolas has found a way to get the attention of the Eldrazi and he leads them to Shandalar in a plot to destroy the Phyrexians.
I hope it isn't this, but I just realized it is possible they were planning Mana Confluence out before finishing Ravnica plans, (while trying to integrate sets) and they may have been referring to the shocklands...
If "5/7/13" is the timestamp (July, 2013), they had been reprinted shocklands by that time already, so...
It's more likely that is May 7, 2013 since they're in the US. Probably doesn't make a difference though.
The only lands you pay for are Fetches, Shocks, and Pains?
Huh, that's weird. They say that Mana Confluence would only be relevant for six months. Sounds like Khans will be heavily mono-colored matters. If they print fetchlands in a mono-color block they wouldn't be "too powerful" for standard. Sounds more likely than if Khans was a shard/wedge/multi-color block.
Huh, that's weird. They say that Mana Confluence would only be relevant for six months. Sounds like Khans will be heavily mono-colored matters. If they print fetchlands in a mono-color block they wouldn't be "too powerful" for standard. Sounds more likely than if Khans was a shard/wedge/multi-color block.
Again, I think all that means is that it won't be multi-coloured matters, not that it will be mono-coloured matters. The latter theme has issues for Limited, as previously noted.
Or maybe... hm... notably, Mana Confluence actually tends to be better in dual-color decks (or 4-5) because those have less mana fixing options than 3 color decks. If Khans is wedge heavy like some people have been speculating, and has half-decent dual lands, or even wedge tri-lands, that might de-value Mana Confluence in comparison. Mono seems more likely though.
They could also be referring to official block-constructed stuff, since they noted that they were building it for the block constructed and putting it in the last set of the block, and block-constructed official events tend to fall off pretty quick once the next block comes out.
Or maybe... hm... notably, Mana Confluence actually tends to be better in dual-color decks (or 4-5) because those have less mana fixing options than 3 color decks. If Khans is wedge heavy like some people have been speculating, and has half-decent dual lands, or even wedge tri-lands, that might de-value Mana Confluence in comparison. Mono seems more likely though.
They could also be referring to official block-constructed stuff, since they noted that they were building it for the block constructed and putting it in the last set of the block, and block-constructed official events tend to fall off pretty quick once the next block comes out.
I had not thought of those things before. They are very good points. I think if Khans is wedge at all, it will be a minor theme. If they do print wedge tri-lands or other duals then I don't think there would be enough space to fit fetchlands in too.
Based on the M15 spoilers and the different themed cards around multicolored cards I expect the fetches to be back. Wotc wants to support modern and get people playing it like Standard. I think the zendikar ones will appear in m15 to offer endorsement for buying it. Onslaught ones will show up in Khans block. Just based on spoilers it 60% chance of reprint. Considering how wotc has made cards like clamp I wouldn't put it past them to reprint the newer fetches in core set.
I hope it isn't this, but I just realized it is possible they were planning Mana Confluence out before finishing Ravnica plans, (while trying to integrate sets) and they may have been referring to the shocklands...
If "5/7/13" is the timestamp (July, 2013), they had been reprinted shocklands by that time already, so...
It's more likely that is May 7, 2013 since they're in the US. Probably doesn't make a difference though.
The only lands you pay for are Fetches, Shocks, and Pains?
Your correct Dlucks. Shocklands hand already been reprinted by the time of the timestamp on the conversation so they wouldn't be talking about them. Talking about reprinting something that was just literally reprinted would be pointless.
Painlands have two problems that prevent them from getting reprinted as easily. Six of them have location specific names form a plane meaning those could only show up in a core set. But core sets no longer want lands that constantly punish you to get mana.
Fetches on the other hand only have the life payment, meaning they wouldn't put them in the core set. The names on them are generic so they could show up in an expert set however.
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WOut of the ground,I rise to grace...W BAfter the lights go out on you, after your worthless life is through. I will remember how you scream...B
The names on them are generic so they could show up in an expert set however.
Which make them so awesome flavorwise. Polluted Deltas are everywhere! Flooded Strands, Bloodstained Mire, Wooded Foothills and Windsweapt Heaths! Some of the best lands are done without a hint of flavor but deliver a full dose of deliciousness that come from any plane.
If I were of influence at WotC, I'd probably have the fastlands, a full cycle of them, in M15 (since some of them might be harder to excuse in an expert set with metal-related the names they got), and put the fetchlands, the full cycle of them, in Khans block, starting out with all the ones they already have in Modern in the first set, put the remaining ones in the 2nd set, but with a possibility of the ones from the first set in the land slot of a pack, and in the final set have any of them be possible appearances in the land slot, the appearance of one in the land slot roughly equivalent to pulling a mythic. I'd also put the tri-lands (uncommon) in the Khans block, the shard ones from Alara in the final set, and the new wedge ones to complete the cycle in the first set. I'd also make the intro packs each include a playset of one of the tri-lands in the set, having the first set of intro-decks be wedge based, the 2nd set be mono-colored intro packs, and the final set be one mono colored (probably red and dragon focused), one dual-colored, one shard, one artifact (colorless focused), and one 5 colored, with the shard one having a playset of the appropriate tri-lands, and the 5 colored one having one of each tri-land. I'd have the event decks of the block each include at least one fetchland. I'd also include the Faerie Conclave cycle of man-lands and Dread Sanctuary in M15 (again @ uncommon), and I'd plan on having the full cycle of dual-land man-lands put in M16. For the M15 event deck, I'd make sure to include a fast-land, and one or two of the uncommon man-lands, and have each of the intro decks include at least one of the uncommon man-lands.
This would finish up major incomplete land cycles of Modern, and it wouldn't put the fetchlands in a core set, and it would make sure shocks are rotated out when fetches enter, and it would give warning of the upcoming disruptions to Modern in the opening of the block from them completing the cycle, then rip off the band-aid or whatnot by releasing the new ones all at once after helping cool off the currently Modern legal fetchland prices with the reprints. Fastlands would be fine for a core-set, and probably a good place for it, since they work well with simple aggro critters, and would be good preparation for a block that is about warring with lots of creatures (likely meaning lots of low CMC creatures in the block) preparing for Khans, and they don't interact weirdly with the scrylands of Theros or for the brief time the shocklands will still be there. It would ensure there are some man-lands in the set, but keep it from being a big single money card that most decks needed like Mutavault is right now, having it be accessible to budget players in all colors and colorless @ uncommon, at least until M16.
A big glut of nice land printings would also cool off some speculators for a while, even on lands that aren't getting re-printed, because they'll realize the chance for a reprint are high, at least for the Modern legal stuff, and completing incomplete cycles will help open up the metagame somewhat to better accommodate some deck types.
Based on the M15 spoilers and the different themed cards around multicolored cards I expect the fetches to be back. Wotc wants to support modern and get people playing it like Standard. I think the zendikar ones will appear in m15 to offer endorsement for buying it. Onslaught ones will show up in Khans block. Just based on spoilers it 60% chance of reprint. Considering how wotc has made cards like clamp I wouldn't put it past them to reprint the newer fetches in core set.
Where exactly did you get this 60% chance of reprint from? Seems like you basically pulled that number out of thin air just like your entire speculation.
So far all of the evidence doesn't support this.
When it comes to fetchlands people are constantly just pulling random ideas out of thin air for why they're being reprinted in the next set. And they're wrong.... again.
Based on the M15 spoilers and the different themed cards around multicolored cards I expect the fetches to be back. Wotc wants to support modern and get people playing it like Standard. I think the zendikar ones will appear in m15 to offer endorsement for buying it. Onslaught ones will show up in Khans block. Just based on spoilers it 60% chance of reprint. Considering how wotc has made cards like clamp I wouldn't put it past them to reprint the newer fetches in core set.
Where exactly did you get this 60% chance of reprint from? Seems like you basically pulled that number out of thin air just like your entire speculation.
So far all of the evidence doesn't support this.
When it comes to fetchlands people are constantly just pulling random ideas out of thin air for why they're being reprinted in the next set. And they're wrong.... again.
So what other land cycles is Wizards likely to reprint that involve life payments? They just did the shocklands, so that only leaves the fetchlands.
They could just troll us and give us new Painlands.
Haha We got You
T: Add 1 to your mana pool
Pay 1 life, T: Add U or W to your mana pool.
"We should release a thing of us saying life payment is better than damage to give the false hope of fetchlands."
"You are a sick sick man, lets do it."
They could just troll us and give us new Painlands.
Haha We got You
T: Add 1 to your mana pool
Pay 1 life, T: Add U or W to your mana pool.
"We should release a thing of us saying life payment is better than damage to give the false hope of fetchlands."
"You are a sick sick man, lets do it."
It says "Now pay life rather than deal damage, to match the land cycles that we are most likely to reprint." Not just make similar versions of, but actually reprint. That means fetchlands or shocklands. It is too soon for shocklands, which means that it has to be fetchlands.
They could just troll us and give us new Painlands.
Haha We got You
T: Add 1 to your mana pool
Pay 1 life, T: Add U or W to your mana pool.
"We should release a thing of us saying life payment is better than damage to give the false hope of fetchlands."
"You are a sick sick man, lets do it."
It says "Now pay life rather than deal damage, to match the land cycles that we are most likely to reprint." Not just make similar versions of, but actually reprint. That means fetchlands or shocklands. It is too soon for shocklands, which means that it has to be fetchlands.
I, for one, am not confident enough in my grasp of Developer lingo to say for certain that they couldn't have been talking about functional reprints. I admit it is a bit of a long shot but it could possibly be interpreted as "this functional reprint should match the style on those other functional reprints we're about to do". Another long shot (because it's not technically a "cycle") is Horizon Canopy.
Don't get me wrong, I think they mean fetchlands (I'm not even sure shocklands are a perfect fit, even though there's a life payment on the card it's not used in the same way and there doesn't seem to be a need to make them work the same), I just don't think you'll find proof of this by over-analysing comments that were only ever intended to communicate with other developers. Kelly might even have assumed it would be censored if the comments were ever put up on the web (before the mentioned reprinting of course). It's easily possible that any multiverse comment is not 100% factually correct, just so long as it makes sense to the other devs.
It says "Now pay life rather than deal damage, to match the land cycles that we are most likely to reprint." Not just make similar versions of, but actually reprint. That means fetchlands or shocklands. It is too soon for shocklands, which means that it has to be fetchlands.
They also say
"Now pay life rather than deal damage, to match the land cycles that we are most likely to reprint",
not
"the land cycles that we will reprint very very soon."
They could just troll us and give us new Painlands.
Haha We got You
T: Add 1 to your mana pool
Pay 1 life, T: Add U or W to your mana pool.
"We should release a thing of us saying life payment is better than damage to give the false hope of fetchlands."
"You are a sick sick man, lets do it."
It says "Now pay life rather than deal damage, to match the land cycles that we are most likely to reprint." Not just make similar versions of, but actually reprint. That means fetchlands or shocklands. It is too soon for shocklands, which means that it has to be fetchlands.
And it didn't say they WOULD reprint. It only said they would be most likely to reprint. Yes, they are more likely to reprint loss of life than than damage lands, but that doesn't at all mean fetches are getting printed soon.
Let me get this straight...people think that despite them waiting until RETURN to RAVNICA to reprint shocklands, we are suddenly going to see Dominaria fetches (Onslaught) or Zendikar fetches in a new plane? Really?
Truthfully, until we see return to dominaria or return to zendikar, we won't be seeing those fetches so get it out of your head. As soon as Tarkir was spoiled, we knew fetches weren't there.
Now, as far as the duals of Tarkir are concerned, I do think that Mana confluence is a HUGE hint. They clearly wanted to "fix" City of Brass, which makes me think they will "fix" the painlands as well. That, or get a cycle of Horizon Canopies finally, for which players have been asking for a long time.
Also, as far as the Onslaught fetchlands are concerned, as silly as it is that only 5 of the fetches are legal in the format, lets not act like it would change anything. Right now, two colored decks still run 8 fetches a lot of the time for deck thinning purposes meaning they already have more than enough way to get those shocks that are almost always exclusively fetched...
EDIT: Also, I think people should really consider the fact that all signs point towards Wizards trying to replace paper legacy with paper modern due to be ing unhindered by the reserve list. If this takes place, they will not want modern to ever be a cheap/affordable format, they just will want to have the power to keep it from becoming ridiculously expensive. People complain about the prices of fetches, but you can get a playset of near mint Misty Rainforest (most expensive fetch) for the price of one damaged Underground Sea.
Truthfully, until we see return to dominaria or return to zendikar, we won't be seeing those fetches so get it out of your head. As soon as Tarkir was spoiled, we knew fetches weren't there.
Man, your arguments are plain unbeatable.
I mean, all we know at this point is that Wizards are going to reprint fetchlands someday. We have no idea when they do it, nor even which set of fetchlands (Zendikar? Onslaught? Whole cycle?). There's no absolute evidence if they do it in M15, Khans of Tarkir, Return to Zendikar, Modern Masters II or whatever. Nothing points us to when Fetchlands come back.
I'm not saying that this whole thread is utterly pointless. But honestly, Wizards do whatever they want. They don't have to give us any hints (as they didn't about Shocklands until Return to Ravnika was fully spoiled). They may put fetchlands in KTK if they feel it's necessary. Nothing restricts them, but nothing forces them to do it neither. All we can do is wait and see:)
We've already discussed it in this thread, but fetchlands have rather generic names which makes it possible for them to be reprinted outside of their original planes. (It would be different if Arid Mesa were instead Akoum Mesa, if you get my point.)
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Sometimes cards are flavoured to be linked with the setting in which they were printed (e.g. the "fastlands" from Scars of Mirrodin, and somewhat incongruously for such a versatile cycle but I digress) but the shocklands in particular were specifically given generic names so that they could be printed in any block. The fact that the setting of Ravnica was also brought back around the time they were to be reprinted was simply a useful opportunity. I believe they would have been reprinted by now even if there had been no Return to Ravnica, and WotC has specifically stated that they could be reprinted in any setting if need be. The fetchlands all have generic names as well and can be reprinted in pretty much any setting.
This. There is no need to be returning to zendikar in order to reprint fetch lands. I'd even argue that they shouldn't be in RTZ- with the hedrons open and the eldrazi roaming free, the roil should be lessened and in fact the mana of the plane should be close to consumed when we return so that there is a tension of trying to contain the eldrazi before they once again spread out into the multiverse. And that's IF we return at all, I would rather not see the eldrazi again until they have left a few dead planes in their wake to really drive home what a truly horrifying force they are.
Imagine this... New Phyrexia is compleat, Venser's knowledge is preserved and the phyrexians now have the technology to hop about the universe. The first place they go is Shandalar where they get ahold of and start compleating slivers. Things are looking grim on old Shandalar and then they get worse- Nicol Bolas has found a way to get the attention of the Eldrazi and he leads them to Shandalar in a plot to destroy the Phyrexians.
It's more likely that is May 7, 2013 since they're in the US. Probably doesn't make a difference though.
The only lands you pay for are Fetches, Shocks, and Pains?
Standard
W.I.P.
EDH
WNorn Tokens
Again, I think all that means is that it won't be multi-coloured matters, not that it will be mono-coloured matters. The latter theme has issues for Limited, as previously noted.
They could also be referring to official block-constructed stuff, since they noted that they were building it for the block constructed and putting it in the last set of the block, and block-constructed official events tend to fall off pretty quick once the next block comes out.
I had not thought of those things before. They are very good points. I think if Khans is wedge at all, it will be a minor theme. If they do print wedge tri-lands or other duals then I don't think there would be enough space to fit fetchlands in too.
Your correct Dlucks. Shocklands hand already been reprinted by the time of the timestamp on the conversation so they wouldn't be talking about them. Talking about reprinting something that was just literally reprinted would be pointless.
Painlands have two problems that prevent them from getting reprinted as easily. Six of them have location specific names form a plane meaning those could only show up in a core set. But core sets no longer want lands that constantly punish you to get mana.
Fetches on the other hand only have the life payment, meaning they wouldn't put them in the core set. The names on them are generic so they could show up in an expert set however.
BAfter the lights go out on you, after your worthless life is through. I will remember how you scream...B
Which make them so awesome flavorwise. Polluted Deltas are everywhere! Flooded Strands, Bloodstained Mire, Wooded Foothills and Windsweapt Heaths! Some of the best lands are done without a hint of flavor but deliver a full dose of deliciousness that come from any plane.
This would finish up major incomplete land cycles of Modern, and it wouldn't put the fetchlands in a core set, and it would make sure shocks are rotated out when fetches enter, and it would give warning of the upcoming disruptions to Modern in the opening of the block from them completing the cycle, then rip off the band-aid or whatnot by releasing the new ones all at once after helping cool off the currently Modern legal fetchland prices with the reprints. Fastlands would be fine for a core-set, and probably a good place for it, since they work well with simple aggro critters, and would be good preparation for a block that is about warring with lots of creatures (likely meaning lots of low CMC creatures in the block) preparing for Khans, and they don't interact weirdly with the scrylands of Theros or for the brief time the shocklands will still be there. It would ensure there are some man-lands in the set, but keep it from being a big single money card that most decks needed like Mutavault is right now, having it be accessible to budget players in all colors and colorless @ uncommon, at least until M16.
A big glut of nice land printings would also cool off some speculators for a while, even on lands that aren't getting re-printed, because they'll realize the chance for a reprint are high, at least for the Modern legal stuff, and completing incomplete cycles will help open up the metagame somewhat to better accommodate some deck types.
When it comes to fetchlands people are constantly just pulling random ideas out of thin air for why they're being reprinted in the next set. And they're wrong.... again.
Check out http://www.mtgbrodeals.com/author/john-murphy/ for my EDH articles!
So what other land cycles is Wizards likely to reprint that involve life payments? They just did the shocklands, so that only leaves the fetchlands.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Haha We got You
T: Add 1 to your mana pool
Pay 1 life, T: Add U or W to your mana pool.
"We should release a thing of us saying life payment is better than damage to give the false hope of fetchlands."
"You are a sick sick man, lets do it."
It says "Now pay life rather than deal damage, to match the land cycles that we are most likely to reprint." Not just make similar versions of, but actually reprint. That means fetchlands or shocklands. It is too soon for shocklands, which means that it has to be fetchlands.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
I, for one, am not confident enough in my grasp of Developer lingo to say for certain that they couldn't have been talking about functional reprints. I admit it is a bit of a long shot but it could possibly be interpreted as "this functional reprint should match the style on those other functional reprints we're about to do". Another long shot (because it's not technically a "cycle") is Horizon Canopy.
Don't get me wrong, I think they mean fetchlands (I'm not even sure shocklands are a perfect fit, even though there's a life payment on the card it's not used in the same way and there doesn't seem to be a need to make them work the same), I just don't think you'll find proof of this by over-analysing comments that were only ever intended to communicate with other developers. Kelly might even have assumed it would be censored if the comments were ever put up on the web (before the mentioned reprinting of course). It's easily possible that any multiverse comment is not 100% factually correct, just so long as it makes sense to the other devs.
That is so bad. We know Conspiracy cards aren't available for Modern...
UR Melek, Izzet ParagonUR, B Shirei, Shizo's CaretakerB, R Jaya Ballard, Task MageR,RW Tajic, Blade of the LegionRW, UB Lazav, Dimir MastermindUB, UB Circu, Dimir LobotomistUB, RWU Zedruu the GreatheartedRWU, GUBThe MimeoplasmGUB, UGExperiment Kraj UG, WDarien, King of KjeldorW, BMarrow-GnawerB, WBGKarador, Ghost ChieftainWBG, UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU, GWUDerevi, Empyrial TacticianGWU, RDaretti, Scrap SavantR, UTalrand, Sky SummonerU, GEzuri, Renegade LeaderG, WUBRGReaper KingWUBRG, RGXenagos, God of RevelsRG, CKozilek, Butcher of TruthC, WUBRGGeneral TazriWUBRG, GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
They also say
not
Cubetutor Peasant'ish-Funbox
Project: Khans of Tarkir Cube (cubetutor)
And it didn't say they WOULD reprint. It only said they would be most likely to reprint. Yes, they are more likely to reprint loss of life than than damage lands, but that doesn't at all mean fetches are getting printed soon.
Check out http://www.mtgbrodeals.com/author/john-murphy/ for my EDH articles!
Truthfully, until we see return to dominaria or return to zendikar, we won't be seeing those fetches so get it out of your head. As soon as Tarkir was spoiled, we knew fetches weren't there.
Now, as far as the duals of Tarkir are concerned, I do think that Mana confluence is a HUGE hint. They clearly wanted to "fix" City of Brass, which makes me think they will "fix" the painlands as well. That, or get a cycle of Horizon Canopies finally, for which players have been asking for a long time.
Also, as far as the Onslaught fetchlands are concerned, as silly as it is that only 5 of the fetches are legal in the format, lets not act like it would change anything. Right now, two colored decks still run 8 fetches a lot of the time for deck thinning purposes meaning they already have more than enough way to get those shocks that are almost always exclusively fetched...
EDIT: Also, I think people should really consider the fact that all signs point towards Wizards trying to replace paper legacy with paper modern due to be ing unhindered by the reserve list. If this takes place, they will not want modern to ever be a cheap/affordable format, they just will want to have the power to keep it from becoming ridiculously expensive. People complain about the prices of fetches, but you can get a playset of near mint Misty Rainforest (most expensive fetch) for the price of one damaged Underground Sea.
Man, your arguments are plain unbeatable.
I mean, all we know at this point is that Wizards are going to reprint fetchlands someday. We have no idea when they do it, nor even which set of fetchlands (Zendikar? Onslaught? Whole cycle?). There's no absolute evidence if they do it in M15, Khans of Tarkir, Return to Zendikar, Modern Masters II or whatever. Nothing points us to when Fetchlands come back.
I'm not saying that this whole thread is utterly pointless. But honestly, Wizards do whatever they want. They don't have to give us any hints (as they didn't about Shocklands until Return to Ravnika was fully spoiled). They may put fetchlands in KTK if they feel it's necessary. Nothing restricts them, but nothing forces them to do it neither. All we can do is wait and see:)
We've already discussed it in this thread, but fetchlands have rather generic names which makes it possible for them to be reprinted outside of their original planes. (It would be different if Arid Mesa were instead Akoum Mesa, if you get my point.)