I didnt buy any m13 packs, no drafts and only bought noobtusks. This set looks worse then m13. Probably will only buy 4 cards from this set that will come to about $20. Dont plan on drafting and might play one sealed at the pre realease if I wake up before 1pm, this set isnt worth waking up early for. So my local card shop will only get about $55 from me for the next 3-4 months.
[QUOTE=Georg51;/comments/12018984]So you hate big bomby cards like Titans, yet trash M14 for not having cards like that? I'm not even sure you understand yourself.
Please, show me where in any of my posts in this thread I whined about any particular MYTHIC OR RARE (In case you are somehow unaware, the cards with the gold or red expansion symbol.) I am referring to the COMMONS mostly (you know, the ones with the black expansion symbol )
And yes, I stand by what I said. There are still relatively few cards (and even fewer for the budget player) to deal with Planeswalkers (and with no Oblivion Ring here....atleast Bramblecrush is back....) nor are there really very many effective pieces of removal here. As stated before, a Lightning Blast reprint would have been nice, or perhaps even Blaze, Pyrotechnics, maybe even Repulse (lol yeah, I went there,) Infest, etc. As many others have stated, hopefully Theros can fill a lot of these gaps. One of the neat things about my early days of MtG play was that there were several "even the mighty can fall" cards that were in the common slot. It gave the game flavor and excitement regardless of budget. I think there's an overall shortage of these cards now. I fear for the kids (which are the future of the game, the majority of Mythicmongers I know nowadays will be its past within the next 5 years given their age and life responsibilities.) I'm afraid they will sit down to play and their opponent has an Olivia Voldaren and a Liliana out while the kid looks at a hand full of Hill Giant wannabe cards that they got with their M14 and they will get discouraged. I feel that discouragement will spread when they find cards such as Dreadbore and realize that being even remotely competitive won't come cheaply. Yes, this is partially WotC's fault, as their card pools have created this type of environment. The dwindling of my local MtG population is again partially their fault (although I more blame the card shops who ignore my pleas for petitions for pauper or "junk draft.") I fear for WotC's ability to make it to 25 years if they keep this up. They need new ideas. They need to make the game less 1-dimensional; it can't be all Mythic creatures and planeswalkers. I'm also not suggesting Commons should overpower all else and that good decks should only cost 5 bucks. I am suggesting that balance is in order though.
I'm looking forward to Magic 2014. Myself and a fair bit of people I know are mostly looking forward to making Sliver decks, even though they're worse this time around
1 mana cantrip: quicken
o-ring type effect: banisher priest
unsummon type effect: time ebb
red does get barrage of the expendables and burning earth to help red decks have reach/removal
When the power level of sets fall off a cliff, then we have a problem.
I agree that the power level of this set is bad, but you do have a few cards that are going to change the metagame. Scavenging Ooze comes to mind. Not insanely broken in any way, but it's going to give green a different look in terms of early creatures.
I think every once in a while, you need a set like this to just kind of play the support role and not drastically change the format. DGM was kind of the say way. You had cards like Renounce the Guilds, Turn // Burn and Far // Away that kind of added depth to a few of the control decks. If every set had cards that were legacy and modern superstars... that's how power creep happens.
That being said, I'm not drafting this set, going to the prerelease or opening any M14 packs.
Who cares if the power level is dropping, it's a new standard season and they're changing it up. Most of the cards people are complaining about will not have any effect on Modern or EDH or whatever, just what's legal in Standard. I foresee them powering up standard by next core set and people complaining about power creep.
If you play Standard, you work with the cards that are legal and go from there. Same with limited. It takes skill to change your play style up because your not pulling common removal out of every booster, plus its fun to have a change of gameplay. We should wait and see how these cards interact with Theros also, once Innistrads out.
I like quite a bit of this set, even the Slivers. Let the core set test the waters for them, I'm sure we'll get our multicolor slivers in a future set.
Meh I could care less if the set as a whole sucked. Except it doesn't. They pretty much insured bant enchant dominating standard for the next 3 months by printing 2 great hexproof creatures meaning they can finally dump mana dorks and smiter in exchange for a 1 drop hexproof and another 3 drop.
Yah im basically quiting for 3 months if this happens locally
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Getting back into MTGO maybe, depending on the cost
The set is bad, and that's good. The power creep with creatures was getting out of hand and with everything being neutered, from mana fixing, to creature bonuses, to enchantment-cure-it-alls.
Limited wise, it's a nice diversion from RtR block. I, like many people, were super hyped about dragon's maze. Lots of interesting mechanics/cards/gimmicks (fuse cards, ral zarek, "shocks" return) made me and several people buy tons of product or do tons of prerelease by the hype alone before we realized that Voice of Resurgence was the only good rare in that set.
I hope core sets go to the backburner so that the expansion sets get the glory and attention they deserve.
GP LV was that big because it was a Modern Masters event. If you think 4500 people would have signed up to play DGM sealed, you are kidding yourself. And more people going to events just means more people are going to events, not MTG is growing.
This happens with every bad set. The apologists pin all their hopes on the myth of "the next block will solve all our woes"
And I think the whole "core sets are for new players" trope needs to die. Core sets are no simpler than other expansions. No one looked at Alara block and said "Oh man, that game looks interesting, but it's SO HARD, I'll wait until the Core Set to jump in". It's a weak apology for the fact that core sets are mostly boring, bad sets.
You can't look at a set that is Homelands bad and say "but it's OK, it's a Core Set, it's for NEW players, it's OK it sucks". I'm not promoting being overly negative, but hopeless optimism/apologism is just as bad. Thinking that everything WoTC puts out is gold is bad for the game, as it excuses poor design and bad sets. It's OK to be critical of bad cards/sets, and IMHO is essential for a healthy, growing game.
M14 is garbage, and it's OK to say it's garbage, and it's OK to tell WoTC it's garbage, so they don't start believing they can keep putting out garbage. The players are the only thing keeping the ego's at WoTC in check, and lately those egos have been winning. Top Down Design, NWO, all these things lead to worse cards and worse sets, and as long as people keep handwaving that away, they will keep running WoTC into the ground thinking they know better than the players what the players should like.
Best post in this thread by a country mile. There is nothing wrong with complaining when WotC gives us trash, because it's all part of the feedback process. This set is going to tank, which will hopefully pave the way for better sets in future.
Best post in this thread by a country mile. There is nothing wrong with complaining when WotC gives us trash, because it's all part of the feedback process. This set is going to tank, which will hopefully pave the way for better sets in future.
and stil the set is not bad. its 10 times better than gatecrash and dragonsmaze...
Really.. Power level concerns? Creep can't go up indefinitely y'know. And adjusting to powered down cards is no different from adjusting to powered up cards. If you care about standard, and they're powering it down a little (needed, in my opinion), then you're going to need these cards that seem "weak" now.
Anyone not opening packs or attending limited events just because they might not open "value", well I'm happy you won't be there. People who go to limited just to rare/value draft might as well not be there are all. It's much better when people who genuinely enjoy limited for the format are playing it, because you get proper archetypes drafted, proper signals and so on. And really, if you play this game to make a profit, you're in the wrong game.
As far as I can work out, none of the complaints against the game thus far actually have any proper grounding in reality or logic. Yeah, wizards should get feedback, and if I find the set un-fun to draft, I'll do less drafts (GTC for example, I find a tedious limited format). But I will actually try it to find out.
Indeed, I enjoy drafting a set because I like drafting the set. Crap AVR was one of the worst draft experiences I ever had. Even though quite a few cards were worth busting I did not do many triple AVR drafts. Those that only care about how good the cards are in a set really are looking at the wrong thing.
I also share the same sentiments about GTC drafts the format was wayyy too aggro focused. Right now is actually a pretty healthy standard format and I think overall one of the best we have ever had. I think over the past 20 years design has done a lot to improve the mtg landscape and while this set may not be the best set ever it will add some new cards to the standard pool and after rotation will have more to offer.
It's not primarily about the powerlevel, though that's definitely a part of it. For me, it's more the fact that this set is a complete flavour miss in a lot of ways.
The cards are boring because any potential danger has been stripped out of them. WotC spent a lot of time changing the wording of established cards, and creating functional reprints that ensure you can't do things like Fiend Hunter exiling, and other small rules exploits. That's all well and good when it's necessary, but in this case, it's almost like there's nothing to discover. If you're even mildly interested in pushing the boundaries with these cards, there really isn't much for you here, because Wizards doesn't want cards that are secretly good, or that are capable of being used in ways other than what they intended. New players shouldn't be expected to learn, because we're apparently targeting players with learning difficulties now... or something to that effect. It's staggering how inept Wizards seems to think new players actually are.
Secondly, there's the whole mechanics and artwork change regarding slivers. If they wanted to change them that much, they should have just called them something else. I'm well aware of Rosewater's article on the subject, but the fact is, they took the lazy option. Not to mention that there's only one black and one blue sliver in the whole set, with no real tribes to make up for the lack in these colours. Thanks for that Wizards, but you'll have to excuse me if I feel a little bit short changed.
Then there's the artwork. Seriously, it's terrible. Dark Prophecy looks like something I could have drawn in grade school, and even Archangel of Thune -- one of the chase mythics of the set -- is just bland when compared to previous examples like angel of serenity and restoration angel. Hell, cards like Iona and Luminarch Ascension still blow me away with their artwork. Now look at witchstalker and enlarge. Exactly.
Finally, there's the fact that they gave us cards that were worse than current alternatives in almost every way, despite those alternatives not actually seeing any play to begin with. I mean, did we really need a strictly worse forbidden alchemy in the form of glimpse the future? No, we didn't, because there was nothing wrong alchemy to begin with. Or how about doom blade as an uncommon, and domestication as a rare? One blue cantrip in the set at rare? Wooooooow.
Honestly, the problems with this set are systemic; if you think it looks exciting, that's great, but please don't insult those of us who wanted something more. The core set excuse is exactly that -- an excuse. Many of us had no problems learning the game in complicated and difficult standards, because the biggest determinant in keeping players is whether or not their friends play the game. I mean, as a twelve year old, I knew the name of every damn dinosaur going around, and I was playing computer games that were faster and more difficult than pretty much anything on the market today, and anyone over the age of 24/25 would have had similar experiences. Magic wouldn't have even made me sweat, so I don't see why it needs to be simplified with each new set.
what do you not get in "core sets are for starters" Tha means they simplify it on purpose. and that they power down the powerlevel a little is GOOD in my oppinion. i hate all these bomby creatures we currently have from m13 and the innistrat block. they are plain annoying and completly push away cards which are not even bad, becaue they are just so good that its impossible to play a deck without them.
i really really like m14 and im no starter and no cassual edh player. many cards are still completly underestimated. limited looks hell of a fun, especialy to limited in Ravnica block which i really didnt like.
i really look forward for the comming sets and hope that they keep on powering down standard a little.
cards like: Bonfire, Thragtusk, Thundermaw hellkite, restoration angel, falkenrath aristocrat, huntmaster, flashback mage and many more were just completly overpushed and wizards sees that. it was just no fun to play against them ever.
so they started powering them down a little in rtr block and keep on doing it in m14. and hopefuly go on with it in theros too. i like if you win because your deck works, and the cards fit together perfectly and so on.. and not because you draw bomb#1 who just wins the game allone.....
My thoughts exactly. I bought a playset of scavenging ooze and thats all I need/want.
I skipped out on DGM prerelease too after doing 2 RTR and 1 GTC prerelease. No set value=no thanks.
You dont know that DGM has no set value. Sure we have the prices as they are now and there are only a few superstars in the set. But wait come Theros and who knows maybe some cards like Pyrewild Shaman and Rubblepelt Raiders from Gatecrash will shine and gain value. You just dont really know until the next block comes out and you see whats in it. I for one dont want 20-30$ cards in a set and I am happy that most of the M14 that I want is less than 5$
You dont know that DGM has no set value. Sure we have the prices as they are now and there are only a few superstars in the set. But wait come Theros and who knows maybe some cards like Pyrewild Shaman and Rubblepelt Raiders from Gatecrash will shine and gain value. You just dont really know until the next block comes out and you see whats in it. I for one dont want 20-30$ cards in a set and I am happy that most of the M14 that I want is less than 5$
All you need to do is look at card values from AVR and DKA to know that pre-sale is NOT the time to judge cards. Did we forget that Thragtusk and Thundermaw were both preselling for under $10 (I got my Thundermaws at $5 this time last year)?
I feel like we have to remind people every spoiler season that first impressions are always the WORST.
All you need to do is look at card values from AVR and DKA to know that pre-sale is NOT the time to judge cards. Did we forget that Thragtusk and Thundermaw were both preselling for under $10 (I got my Thundermaws at $5 this time last year)?
I feel like we have to remind people every spoiler season that first impressions are always the WORST.
Thundermaw went up to at least $15during pre-sale.
You dont know that DGM has no set value. Sure we have the prices as they are now and there are only a few superstars in the set. But wait come Theros and who knows maybe some cards like Pyrewild Shaman and Rubblepelt Raiders from Gatecrash will shine and gain value. You just dont really know until the next block comes out and you see whats in it. I for one dont want 20-30$ cards in a set and I am happy that most of the M14 that I want is less than 5$
I'm not living in the future. I'm living today and today the set has no value. And the prospect of a crappy set suddenly maybe possibly hopefully becoming better in 6 months isn't exciting to me. You could make that same argument about anything bad and say that "maybe this will be better in 6 months!"
$20 cards are usually cards that are very good and I'd rather have $20 cards that i can play with in tournaments than $2 cards that are unplayable in tournaments.
also these 2$ cards are not bad. they are good designed cards, its just that cards in especialy innistrad and m13 were completly stupidly pushed, so even good cards cant see any play currently.
but all the good and normaly playable cards from m14 and the ravnica block will see some play once m13 and inistrat rotate, believe me.
Please, show me where in any of my posts in this thread I whined about any particular MYTHIC OR RARE (In case you are somehow unaware, the cards with the gold or red expansion symbol.) I am referring to the COMMONS mostly (you know, the ones with the black expansion symbol )
And yes, I stand by what I said. There are still relatively few cards (and even fewer for the budget player) to deal with Planeswalkers (and with no Oblivion Ring here....atleast Bramblecrush is back....) nor are there really very many effective pieces of removal here. As stated before, a Lightning Blast reprint would have been nice, or perhaps even Blaze, Pyrotechnics, maybe even Repulse (lol yeah, I went there,) Infest, etc. As many others have stated, hopefully Theros can fill a lot of these gaps. One of the neat things about my early days of MtG play was that there were several "even the mighty can fall" cards that were in the common slot. It gave the game flavor and excitement regardless of budget. I think there's an overall shortage of these cards now. I fear for the kids (which are the future of the game, the majority of Mythicmongers I know nowadays will be its past within the next 5 years given their age and life responsibilities.) I'm afraid they will sit down to play and their opponent has an Olivia Voldaren and a Liliana out while the kid looks at a hand full of Hill Giant wannabe cards that they got with their M14 and they will get discouraged. I feel that discouragement will spread when they find cards such as Dreadbore and realize that being even remotely competitive won't come cheaply. Yes, this is partially WotC's fault, as their card pools have created this type of environment. The dwindling of my local MtG population is again partially their fault (although I more blame the card shops who ignore my pleas for petitions for pauper or "junk draft.") I fear for WotC's ability to make it to 25 years if they keep this up. They need new ideas. They need to make the game less 1-dimensional; it can't be all Mythic creatures and planeswalkers. I'm also not suggesting Commons should overpower all else and that good decks should only cost 5 bucks. I am suggesting that balance is in order though.
We have Shock, Elvish mystic, Doom blade and that is it. errr I guess duress counts but not main board.
It feels really stark without rampant growth, oblivion ring, unsummon, 1 mana blue can-trip, two mana red burn spell, acidic slime.
I mean M13 was missing some of these.. basically augur of bolas replaced the ponder effect but it did it well glimpse of the future does not maybe
Pioneer:UR Pheonix
Modern:U Mono U Tron
EDH
GB Glissa, the traitor: Army of Cans
UW Dragonlord Ojutai: Dragonlord NOjutai
UWGDerevi, Empyrial Tactician "you cannot fight the storm"
R Zirilan of the claw. The solution to every problem is dragons
UB Etrata, the Silencer Cloning assassination
Peasant cube: Cards I own
1 mana cantrip: quicken
o-ring type effect: banisher priest
unsummon type effect: time ebb
red does get barrage of the expendables and burning earth to help red decks have reach/removal
things change - isn't that supposed to be what makes this game so great?
Currently Playing
UTron
Tahngarth, Talruum Hero
TRADE ME!!!
Gradual change is fine.
When the power level of sets fall off a cliff, then we have a problem.
---
BRG Prossh, Skyraider of Kher
WUB Sharuum, the Hegemon
UGEdric, Spymaster of Trest
I agree that the power level of this set is bad, but you do have a few cards that are going to change the metagame. Scavenging Ooze comes to mind. Not insanely broken in any way, but it's going to give green a different look in terms of early creatures.
I think every once in a while, you need a set like this to just kind of play the support role and not drastically change the format. DGM was kind of the say way. You had cards like Renounce the Guilds, Turn // Burn and Far // Away that kind of added depth to a few of the control decks. If every set had cards that were legacy and modern superstars... that's how power creep happens.
That being said, I'm not drafting this set, going to the prerelease or opening any M14 packs.
If you play Standard, you work with the cards that are legal and go from there. Same with limited. It takes skill to change your play style up because your not pulling common removal out of every booster, plus its fun to have a change of gameplay. We should wait and see how these cards interact with Theros also, once Innistrads out.
I like quite a bit of this set, even the Slivers. Let the core set test the waters for them, I'm sure we'll get our multicolor slivers in a future set.
Yah im basically quiting for 3 months if this happens locally
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AppealToWorseProblems
My thoughts exactly. I bought a playset of scavenging ooze and thats all I need/want.
I skipped out on DGM prerelease too after doing 2 RTR and 1 GTC prerelease. No set value=no thanks.
Limited wise, it's a nice diversion from RtR block. I, like many people, were super hyped about dragon's maze. Lots of interesting mechanics/cards/gimmicks (fuse cards, ral zarek, "shocks" return) made me and several people buy tons of product or do tons of prerelease by the hype alone before we realized that Voice of Resurgence was the only good rare in that set.
I hope core sets go to the backburner so that the expansion sets get the glory and attention they deserve.
especialy black is the color i like the most currently
corrupt+sanguine blood = pure awesomenes elixir of immortality seems pretty good if you have sanguine blood too
Best post in this thread by a country mile. There is nothing wrong with complaining when WotC gives us trash, because it's all part of the feedback process. This set is going to tank, which will hopefully pave the way for better sets in future.
and stil the set is not bad. its 10 times better than gatecrash and dragonsmaze...
Indeed, I enjoy drafting a set because I like drafting the set. Crap AVR was one of the worst draft experiences I ever had. Even though quite a few cards were worth busting I did not do many triple AVR drafts. Those that only care about how good the cards are in a set really are looking at the wrong thing.
I also share the same sentiments about GTC drafts the format was wayyy too aggro focused. Right now is actually a pretty healthy standard format and I think overall one of the best we have ever had. I think over the past 20 years design has done a lot to improve the mtg landscape and while this set may not be the best set ever it will add some new cards to the standard pool and after rotation will have more to offer.
Feel free to bid on my cards here!
The cards are boring because any potential danger has been stripped out of them. WotC spent a lot of time changing the wording of established cards, and creating functional reprints that ensure you can't do things like Fiend Hunter exiling, and other small rules exploits. That's all well and good when it's necessary, but in this case, it's almost like there's nothing to discover. If you're even mildly interested in pushing the boundaries with these cards, there really isn't much for you here, because Wizards doesn't want cards that are secretly good, or that are capable of being used in ways other than what they intended. New players shouldn't be expected to learn, because we're apparently targeting players with learning difficulties now... or something to that effect. It's staggering how inept Wizards seems to think new players actually are.
Secondly, there's the whole mechanics and artwork change regarding slivers. If they wanted to change them that much, they should have just called them something else. I'm well aware of Rosewater's article on the subject, but the fact is, they took the lazy option. Not to mention that there's only one black and one blue sliver in the whole set, with no real tribes to make up for the lack in these colours. Thanks for that Wizards, but you'll have to excuse me if I feel a little bit short changed.
Then there's the artwork. Seriously, it's terrible. Dark Prophecy looks like something I could have drawn in grade school, and even Archangel of Thune -- one of the chase mythics of the set -- is just bland when compared to previous examples like angel of serenity and restoration angel. Hell, cards like Iona and Luminarch Ascension still blow me away with their artwork. Now look at witchstalker and enlarge. Exactly.
Finally, there's the fact that they gave us cards that were worse than current alternatives in almost every way, despite those alternatives not actually seeing any play to begin with. I mean, did we really need a strictly worse forbidden alchemy in the form of glimpse the future? No, we didn't, because there was nothing wrong alchemy to begin with. Or how about doom blade as an uncommon, and domestication as a rare? One blue cantrip in the set at rare? Wooooooow.
Honestly, the problems with this set are systemic; if you think it looks exciting, that's great, but please don't insult those of us who wanted something more. The core set excuse is exactly that -- an excuse. Many of us had no problems learning the game in complicated and difficult standards, because the biggest determinant in keeping players is whether or not their friends play the game. I mean, as a twelve year old, I knew the name of every damn dinosaur going around, and I was playing computer games that were faster and more difficult than pretty much anything on the market today, and anyone over the age of 24/25 would have had similar experiences. Magic wouldn't have even made me sweat, so I don't see why it needs to be simplified with each new set.
i really really like m14 and im no starter and no cassual edh player. many cards are still completly underestimated. limited looks hell of a fun, especialy to limited in Ravnica block which i really didnt like.
i really look forward for the comming sets and hope that they keep on powering down standard a little.
cards like: Bonfire, Thragtusk, Thundermaw hellkite, restoration angel, falkenrath aristocrat, huntmaster, flashback mage and many more were just completly overpushed and wizards sees that. it was just no fun to play against them ever.
so they started powering them down a little in rtr block and keep on doing it in m14. and hopefuly go on with it in theros too. i like if you win because your deck works, and the cards fit together perfectly and so on.. and not because you draw bomb#1 who just wins the game allone.....
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
You dont know that DGM has no set value. Sure we have the prices as they are now and there are only a few superstars in the set. But wait come Theros and who knows maybe some cards like Pyrewild Shaman and Rubblepelt Raiders from Gatecrash will shine and gain value. You just dont really know until the next block comes out and you see whats in it. I for one dont want 20-30$ cards in a set and I am happy that most of the M14 that I want is less than 5$
All you need to do is look at card values from AVR and DKA to know that pre-sale is NOT the time to judge cards. Did we forget that Thragtusk and Thundermaw were both preselling for under $10 (I got my Thundermaws at $5 this time last year)?
I feel like we have to remind people every spoiler season that first impressions are always the WORST.
Thundermaw went up to at least $15during pre-sale.
Standard
W.I.P.
EDH
WNorn Tokens
I'm not living in the future. I'm living today and today the set has no value. And the prospect of a crappy set suddenly maybe possibly hopefully becoming better in 6 months isn't exciting to me. You could make that same argument about anything bad and say that "maybe this will be better in 6 months!"
$20 cards are usually cards that are very good and I'd rather have $20 cards that i can play with in tournaments than $2 cards that are unplayable in tournaments.
also these 2$ cards are not bad. they are good designed cards, its just that cards in especialy innistrad and m13 were completly stupidly pushed, so even good cards cant see any play currently.
but all the good and normaly playable cards from m14 and the ravnica block will see some play once m13 and inistrat rotate, believe me.