I made this account just so i could point something out: As someone who knows their stuff, you are completely correct in that you shouldn't make assumptions that the set will have Roman influence when we have no proof of it.
The problem exists in the fact that you know your facts. Most people don't know the difference between Greek and Roman mythology and culture past what is taught in history classes in highschool. Because of this, the assumption that they would make a set, and strictly adhere to just ONE of the cultures, when the majority of people that will be playing the set wont know or care about the difference, is flawed.
you are completely correct that they are not the same thing, but the majority of people dont care at all. And the speculation isn't baseless because the majority of people assume that if it has Grecian influence, it will ALSO have Roman influence.
I appreciate the input, from both you and Ulthwithian. I've been taking something of a hardline stance, a knee-jerk reaction for me when confronted with this kind of argument. I would only like to add that I take no personal issue with Wizards incorporating Roman elements in the next block, if that is what they think will sell because of common perception (or misperception, as the case might be). Still, it's hard to argue for anything when we still have so little information, and I think that was a major part of my original point. I apologize if that's gotten lost somewhere along the line.
So, that encompasses gladiators and legionnaires how? My commentary doesn't exist in a vacuum, it was originally (and has been since) a deliberate response to the ignorance and misleading rumors abounding in this thread. Furthermore, viewing the ancient Greeks through the lens of Roman society does not mean that we cannot or should not seek to differentiate them objectively. That's pretty much the aim of history and historiography. Your inability (along with everyone else here, apparently) to distinguish between the two has no bearing on the world of academia or scholarly thinking, and if that makes me pompous then I wear the epithet with pride.
Please, tell me more about how incorrect I am. I'm sure my history professors would love a good old-fashioned 'cool story bro.'
Wow, you're totally being a jerk and you don't have to be. Nobody here is showing that they don't know the difference between Rome and Greek or that there isn't any. If neither of us touched a book right now, or looked online (which we couldn't prove), I could show you that I could name every major god and their name change between the 2 mythologies. I could tell you the names of the clothes they wore and the differences (like toga vs himation). I could name the years of existence, wars they fought, their governments during different time periods and holidays they celebrated. Also guess what? I can SPEAK LATIN, my only second language next to my getting-better grasp of Chinese.
The point is, as I showed you, unless it is based in ACTUAL GREECE (which obviously it isn't and is based on the mythology that is nearly the exact same in Rome minus name changes and a few other minor details), that it is a very good chance that it has both elements of Greek and Roman mythology and culture. Generally WHEN YOU DON'T KNOW whether it's all the mythology or just a specific piece, in a game we could generally call it Greco-Roman mythology. As I pointed out in D&D. As I pointed out in Kid Icarus. All the mythology is just gathered up and generally called Greco-Roman. It's been done and we can do it without it being unintelligent and you having to be a jerk about it.
Then you basically talk about how everyone needs to pick up a history book and is basically unintelligent about the matter, when I am stating actually differences between the mythology like the satyrs and Titanomachy, and you just reply with "nope, nope, nope" like a brick wall with no rebuttal but saying "nope, nope."
The second we see a pic of a satyr being half goat, which if there will be a satyr that is a 99% chance like how they look in every game ever, it is automatically not just Greek based.
...and yes they don't relate codenames with the actual block but I bet you anything it wasn't just a coincidence this time.
Better yet, you are trying to attack everyone saying that they can't call it Greco-Roman because there is no basis for that? We still have 0 clarification that it is even Greek so you're not allowed to call it Greek themed.
EDIT: Sorry if the above feels heated, I'm not really heated it's just hard to make the tone sound right =P
Sorry, I finished arguing with you when I summarized your faulty train of thought. If after everything I've said (which appears fairly comprehensive and technically sound to me) all you can see is "nope, nope, nope," then there's just no helping you.
Please, go where the evidence is. That's all I'm asking.
I believe this'll lean more towards Greece-themed lore more so than Roman, since if anyone remembers Odyssey block that was kind of our Roman block (gladiators, coliseum, yaddah yaddah...). But, I could see them combining the themes to get things one theme would miss so there could be generalization.
Of course, the big questions:
1) What is the main plot going to be, and how are planeswalkers going to be involved? (Ya know, because there's Gods then of course Planeswalkers...)
2) Which planeswalker will be coming back, if any? This seems like the perfect block in which Gideon COULD'VE came back since he is robed in the style of the block it looks like.
3) The theme? GIVE US A THEME WIZARDS OF THE COAST RIGHT NAO.
4) If this is Greek/Roman/etc. themed, will it follow any of the original mythos of old (I.E. Battle of Troy, Odysseus, Zeus/Aphrodite/their duaghter/Hades story, etc...)
In the same way you can tell someone is from the XVIII century because he is arroused by ankles, you can tell someone is from USA because he feels nipples disturbing.
Sorry, I finished arguing with you when I summarized your faulty train of thought. If after everything I've said (which appears fairly comprehensive and technically sound to me) all you can see is "nope, nope, nope," then there's just no helping you.
Please, go where the evidence is. That's all I'm asking.
Once again, you completely denied the post where I said people have also been saying Greco-Roman, wherein one begets the other. However, since we only have two references to Greek Mythology in Theros and Ny(i)x, and the one piece of art spoiled so far is definitely Greek flavored, not roman, it is safe to say it is Greek or Hellenistic until it is assuredly Greco-Roman.
Wow, that is a pretty nice lineup of designers and developers. And there's even someone from Creative on both Design AND Development! This set/block is going to be heavy on the top-down flavor (Jenna Helland was on the design team for Innistrad to help flesh out the Horror tropes, and Doug Beyer was lead designer for M13, which obviously has lots of top-down stuff as a Core Set).
I'm stuck on trying to figure out what's going on in the art for the announcement. What's with all the spacy-looking stuff on that guy/god/thing? And that's definitely NOT a planeswalker. WHAT'S HAPPENING.
In the same way you can tell someone is from the XVIII century because he is arroused by ankles, you can tell someone is from USA because he feels nipples disturbing.
I'm stuck on trying to figure out what's going on in the art for the announcement. What's with all the spacy-looking stuff on that guy/god/thing? And that's definitely NOT a planeswalker. WHAT'S HAPPENING.
See set two: Born of the Gods. Guess what this guy might be, then.
Personally I'm willing to bet that Wizards is going to try another "battlecruiser Magic" theme for the Theros block. After all, the current standard has a lot of fast, aggro-based decks (for better or worse), so perhaps Wizards wants to slow things down for Theros and give us a literal change of pace. It's been a while since we've had battlecruiser Magic anyway. Last time was Rise of the Eldrazi. (speaking of which, that guy in the spoiler picture looks like he could arm wrestle an Eldrazi and win :))
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EDH/Commander
UBR Sedris RG Omnath, Locus of Rage UB The Scarab God RUG Maelstrom Wanderer WU Dragonlord Ojutai
Like how Kamigawa was so faithful to every single real and accurate fact about asian religion and folklore.
It's funny you should mention that, because Kamigawa was too faithful to Japanese folklore; it didn't play to people's expectations enough. Many were put off by the many cultural references that they didn't quite get.
WotC learned from that, though; they're going to have Theros play to our expectations, even if it means pissing in the eye of historical/cultural accuracy. If WotC feels that they can please the crowd by mixing a little gladiatorial combat in with the gorgons, minotaurs, Spartan analogues, and gods, then that's what they'll do.
I believe this'll lean more towards Greece-themed lore more so than Roman, since if anyone remembers Odyssey block that was kind of our Roman block (gladiators, coliseum, yaddah yaddah...). But, I could see them combining the themes to get things one theme would miss so there could be generalization.
They definitely could, since Roman mythology was very closely derived from Greek Mythology...
Of course, the big questions:
1) What is the main plot going to be, and how are planeswalkers going to be involved? (Ya know, because there's Gods then of course Planeswalkers...)
Just to get it all INB4:
ELDRAZI!
NICOL BOLAS GETS HIS IMMORTALITY BACK!
THE PHYREXIAN GOD YAWGMOTH RETURNS!
...
...
ok, I'm good now...
2) Which planeswalker will be coming back, if any? This seems like the perfect block in which Gideon COULD'VE came back since he is robed in the style of the block it looks like.
Gideon could make another comeback, especially since it seems (at least to me) that WoTC are trying to position him as a foil for Jace and secondary poster boy for planeswalkers. But I think that it's much more likely to see a whole slew of new planeswalkers. A fresh new set of 5 for a whole block would be a welcome change of pace personally.
4) If this is Greek/Roman/etc. themed, will it follow any of the original mythos of old (I.E. Battle of Troy, Odysseus, Zeus/Aphrodite/their duaghter/Hades story, etc...)
I think, if Theros does follow "traditional" Greek/Roman themes, we would probably see a smattering of the influential mythos with a distinctly magic twist ala: Lorwyn/Shadowmoor. So we would probably see a cycle or two of "Gods": legendary creatures that share some sort of familial familiarity, the "Titans": the antagonists standing against the gods, etc., etc. ...
(And if this sounds very vague and common, that's because a lot of the basic themes and stories told by Greek/Roman mythology were already well told in thier own times.)
That, and you know what they say. If Wizards started shipping $100 bills in boosters tomorrow, people would scream and cry and whine that they were folded the wrong way.
Resonant cultural themes are a scarce resource; why combine Greek and Roman mythology and cultural themes when there's enough material to mine for each of them to have their own setting and block?
There seems to be a change in the Arcana art since Saturday!
Before:
After:
There's a lot more of that 'dark sparkly' stuff in the new, 'after' version!
Which is very similar, in fact identical, to what is on Vela the Night-Clad:
Interesting...the god-land-man with the spear, is reacting to Vela's night influence on his turf? He's funneling light with his big ol' spear, and doesn't look too happy! If this is card art, it might be for an enchantment or instant/sorcery more than a creature/God then.
Also, coolness: the sparkly stuff seems to be stars and the cosmos. Epic. /spacenerd
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that's not what happened at all. kamahl stabbed phage, akroma, and some old lady and they became korona. then korona got stabbed by her "prophets" and kamahl got drunk with a mutant centaur
Don't we normally get a tagline about now? Also, did I miss something about the Pro-Tour? I thought Theros was to be Modern, like Return to Ravnica, but the Arcana says Standard.
Resonant cultural themes are a scarce resource; why combine Greek and Roman mythology and cultural themes when there's enough material to mine for each of them to have their own setting and block?
Good luck with that logic. There's no getting through to some people.
Resonant cultural themes are a scarce resource; why combine Greek and Roman mythology and cultural themes when there's enough material to mine for each of them to have their own setting and block?
You have great faith in the average person's ability to distinguish the two.
And I pray to Zeus that we don't get more Eldrazi size creatures
You have great faith in the average person's ability to distinguish the two.
And I pray to Zeus that we don't get more Eldrazi size creatures
I have considerably more faith in Wizards' ability to distinguish the two. If we do see a Roman-themed plane in the future I have confidence that there will be plenty of ways to distinguish it from Theros. Even if many people lump together most things "Greco-Roman" into one big pile, there are differences, and by keeping those differences separate it's possible to make two distinct settings.
For example: Theros can focus much more on the fantastic aspects of Greek mythology, and more pastoral terrain and wild, mystical places. Hypothetical-Roman-Plane can focus on a more urbanized, imperial setting, with less mythic monsters and more social conflict and political intrigue.
No, it's not damn close. One influenced the other, not the other way around (unless we start talking about the Eastern Empire, which we are not). You guys are not picking up what I'm putting down. Was the Roman world greatly Hellenized? Yes. Were the Greeks greatly Romanized? Not in their earliest incarnation, no. Early Antiquity did not spring up out of some mystical connection between the Greeks and the Romans.
All of you are thinking backwards because you see Greek and automatically associate that with the term 'Greco-Roman.' Greek does not equal Greco-Roman anymore than it does just Roman. When Wizards starts talking Greco-Roman or Roman, I will concede the argument. So far we know that there is a Greek theme in the upcoming block, and that is all. There is no reason to tie in other cultures that borrowed from the Greeks, even if in your mind (and not the rest of the world, as you suppose) that they are one and the same.
find something spoiled so far that suggests GREEK instead of GRECO-ROMAN and i'll concede you've won.
I doubt the set name "Journey into Nyx" is referring to the goddess, though. I mean, "journey into" her? Awkward...
Not what I meant. I was just responding to "Nyx sounds like Styx". Nyx already has a meaning in Greek mythology, and it could have something of a duality with "summer" Theros (echoes of Lorwyn/Shadowmoor? Probably not, but who knows?)
It kind of ties in with the suggestion earlier in the thread that gods like Ares or Hades will appear on cards. That's not going to happen. The pantheon of Theros will not be the Greek pantheon, it will be original deities that stylistically resemble the Greek pantheon. That's how Magic does things these days.
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No Problem, wrote the wrong thing myself.
And Xaft is basically saying what I meant. The people really won't differentiate, and it is unlikely that Wizards themselves will as well.
I appreciate the input, from both you and Ulthwithian. I've been taking something of a hardline stance, a knee-jerk reaction for me when confronted with this kind of argument. I would only like to add that I take no personal issue with Wizards incorporating Roman elements in the next block, if that is what they think will sell because of common perception (or misperception, as the case might be). Still, it's hard to argue for anything when we still have so little information, and I think that was a major part of my original point. I apologize if that's gotten lost somewhere along the line.
Also: welcome to the forums.
---
#BLM
#DefundThePolice
Wow, you're totally being a jerk and you don't have to be. Nobody here is showing that they don't know the difference between Rome and Greek or that there isn't any. If neither of us touched a book right now, or looked online (which we couldn't prove), I could show you that I could name every major god and their name change between the 2 mythologies. I could tell you the names of the clothes they wore and the differences (like toga vs himation). I could name the years of existence, wars they fought, their governments during different time periods and holidays they celebrated. Also guess what? I can SPEAK LATIN, my only second language next to my getting-better grasp of Chinese.
The point is, as I showed you, unless it is based in ACTUAL GREECE (which obviously it isn't and is based on the mythology that is nearly the exact same in Rome minus name changes and a few other minor details), that it is a very good chance that it has both elements of Greek and Roman mythology and culture. Generally WHEN YOU DON'T KNOW whether it's all the mythology or just a specific piece, in a game we could generally call it Greco-Roman mythology. As I pointed out in D&D. As I pointed out in Kid Icarus. All the mythology is just gathered up and generally called Greco-Roman. It's been done and we can do it without it being unintelligent and you having to be a jerk about it.
Then you basically talk about how everyone needs to pick up a history book and is basically unintelligent about the matter, when I am stating actually differences between the mythology like the satyrs and Titanomachy, and you just reply with "nope, nope, nope" like a brick wall with no rebuttal but saying "nope, nope."
The second we see a pic of a satyr being half goat, which if there will be a satyr that is a 99% chance like how they look in every game ever, it is automatically not just Greek based.
...and yes they don't relate codenames with the actual block but I bet you anything it wasn't just a coincidence this time.
Better yet, you are trying to attack everyone saying that they can't call it Greco-Roman because there is no basis for that? We still have 0 clarification that it is even Greek so you're not allowed to call it Greek themed.
EDIT: Sorry if the above feels heated, I'm not really heated it's just hard to make the tone sound right =P
RoblinTheGoblin's Pro M15 Template:
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Also includes M15+ real god stars, promo template, super art template, planeswalker template
Please, go where the evidence is. That's all I'm asking.
---
#BLM
#DefundThePolice
Of course, the big questions:
1) What is the main plot going to be, and how are planeswalkers going to be involved? (Ya know, because there's Gods then of course Planeswalkers...)
2) Which planeswalker will be coming back, if any? This seems like the perfect block in which Gideon COULD'VE came back since he is robed in the style of the block it looks like.
3) The theme? GIVE US A THEME WIZARDS OF THE COAST RIGHT NAO.
4) If this is Greek/Roman/etc. themed, will it follow any of the original mythos of old (I.E. Battle of Troy, Odysseus, Zeus/Aphrodite/their duaghter/Hades story, etc...)
Once again, you completely denied the post where I said people have also been saying Greco-Roman, wherein one begets the other. However, since we only have two references to Greek Mythology in Theros and Ny(i)x, and the one piece of art spoiled so far is definitely Greek flavored, not roman, it is safe to say it is Greek or Hellenistic until it is assuredly Greco-Roman.
Many thanks to DNC at Heroes of the Plane Studios
As thoush WotC would choose to design a set based STRICTLY in a real-world mythology.
Like how Kamigawa was so faithful to every single real and accurate fact about asian religion and folklore.
R Citizen Cane (Feldon of the Third Path)
See set two: Born of the Gods. Guess what this guy might be, then.
R Citizen Cane (Feldon of the Third Path)
UBR Sedris
RG Omnath, Locus of Rage
UB The Scarab God
RUG Maelstrom Wanderer
WU Dragonlord Ojutai
It's funny you should mention that, because Kamigawa was too faithful to Japanese folklore; it didn't play to people's expectations enough. Many were put off by the many cultural references that they didn't quite get.
WotC learned from that, though; they're going to have Theros play to our expectations, even if it means pissing in the eye of historical/cultural accuracy. If WotC feels that they can please the crowd by mixing a little gladiatorial combat in with the gorgons, minotaurs, Spartan analogues, and gods, then that's what they'll do.
They definitely could, since Roman mythology was very closely derived from Greek Mythology...
Just to get it all INB4:
ELDRAZI!
NICOL BOLAS GETS HIS IMMORTALITY BACK!
THE PHYREXIAN GOD YAWGMOTH RETURNS!
...
...
ok, I'm good now...
Gideon could make another comeback, especially since it seems (at least to me) that WoTC are trying to position him as a foil for Jace and secondary poster boy for planeswalkers. But I think that it's much more likely to see a whole slew of new planeswalkers. A fresh new set of 5 for a whole block would be a welcome change of pace personally.
Considering they haven't even started spoilers for DGM, I think we'd better stop holding our collective breaths...
I think, if Theros does follow "traditional" Greek/Roman themes, we would probably see a smattering of the influential mythos with a distinctly magic twist ala: Lorwyn/Shadowmoor. So we would probably see a cycle or two of "Gods": legendary creatures that share some sort of familial familiarity, the "Titans": the antagonists standing against the gods, etc., etc. ...
(And if this sounds very vague and common, that's because a lot of the basic themes and stories told by Greek/Roman mythology were already well told in thier own times.)
//stat.rumandmonkey.com/tests/1/6/5261/20801.jpg">stat.rumandmonkey.com
R Citizen Cane (Feldon of the Third Path)
Feel free to tell me yours!
Before:
After:
There's a lot more of that 'dark sparkly' stuff in the new, 'after' version!
Which is very similar, in fact identical, to what is on Vela the Night-Clad:
Interesting...the god-land-man with the spear, is reacting to Vela's night influence on his turf? He's funneling light with his big ol' spear, and doesn't look too happy! If this is card art, it might be for an enchantment or instant/sorcery more than a creature/God then.
Also, coolness: the sparkly stuff seems to be stars and the cosmos. Epic. /spacenerd
Good luck with that logic. There's no getting through to some people.
---
#BLM
#DefundThePolice
:symr::symb: I hate your deck(Kaervek the Merciless)
Wait, how do I even hide it as a name title?
Kemba, Kostume
Ka...Oh god that's not a good alliteration.Wait, how do I even hide it as a name title?
You have great faith in the average person's ability to distinguish the two.
And I pray to Zeus that we don't get more Eldrazi size creatures
I have considerably more faith in Wizards' ability to distinguish the two. If we do see a Roman-themed plane in the future I have confidence that there will be plenty of ways to distinguish it from Theros. Even if many people lump together most things "Greco-Roman" into one big pile, there are differences, and by keeping those differences separate it's possible to make two distinct settings.
For example: Theros can focus much more on the fantastic aspects of Greek mythology, and more pastoral terrain and wild, mystical places. Hypothetical-Roman-Plane can focus on a more urbanized, imperial setting, with less mythic monsters and more social conflict and political intrigue.
R Citizen Cane (Feldon of the Third Path)
find something spoiled so far that suggests GREEK instead of GRECO-ROMAN and i'll concede you've won.
Not what I meant. I was just responding to "Nyx sounds like Styx". Nyx already has a meaning in Greek mythology, and it could have something of a duality with "summer" Theros (echoes of Lorwyn/Shadowmoor? Probably not, but who knows?)
It kind of ties in with the suggestion earlier in the thread that gods like Ares or Hades will appear on cards. That's not going to happen. The pantheon of Theros will not be the Greek pantheon, it will be original deities that stylistically resemble the Greek pantheon. That's how Magic does things these days.