-facepalm- Yes we are all the same..... we are all human.
Im not stretching the associations at all! The cultural similarities between the greeks and romans are huge. They lived 1 sea apart, they traded, they waged war against each other they shared ideas and ideologies long before the romans invaded.
Cherokee, Cheyenne, Choctaw, Comanche, Iroquois, and Muscogee all known as red Indians or as native americans because of their similar cultures by the rest of the world.
And im not going lawl gladiatorz im going Hercules, Hercules , Hercules
Wow, you really just summed up your argument by inferring that all Native American cultures are the same? I'd love to hear what any one of those tribes would have to say about your train of thought.
Being the same genetically is not the same as being the same culturally, just as geographic proximity does not equate to identical cultures. That was my point about originating in Africa, but it appears to have gone over your head.
As did the entire Mediterranean, and parts of Asia Minor. Those places also retained much of their own distinct cultural identities, and went back to doing their own thing when the Roman Empire collapsed. Again, Greece =/= Rome.
Look, you guys (not Wizards) are putting the emphasis on the whole 'Greco-Roman' thing. That's a lot of assumption to be made over a few names and scraps of art, all of which appear outwardly to be Greek and nothing more. Bottom line: there's plenty of room for speculation without including a culture that borrowed from the Greeks (and many others), and not the other way around.
Just about everything in Greek mythology (except the Titanomachy and origin I believe) is nearly EXACTLY the same in Roman mythology, hence Greco-Roman. Everything we cover in this block will no doubt also be in the Roman mythology. It's not even close to draw the same conclusion when calling America "Brit-America" in the far future unless you are talking about the Revolution era. Also this block can't possibly take place in Greece, so why call it Greek mythology alone?
Also I bet you anything they will draw Roman satyrs like just about every fantasy does, so it will undeniably have Roman elements (if it indeed is a Greco-Roman set).
On top of that, we have 0 confirmation that it is (if based on this theme) solely based on either Greek or Roman mythology alone, so calling it Greco-Roman would be more correct until we find out this info- because we simply do not know if it is one or the other... and "Theros" and "Nyx" aren't enough to confirm anything yet... considering they have Therae and Nox. Usually (I think because we are used to our planets being named "Mars" and "Jupiter" so it sounds stupid to many people) we are more of fans of using the Greek names for everything in fantasy even if we make it based more on Rome style (like using gladiator matches, empires, the addition of mongolian-like races, barbarians, etc).
Just about everything in Greek mythology (except the Titanomachy and origin I believe) is nearly EXACTLY the same in Roman mythology, hence Greco-Roman. Everything we cover in this block will no doubt also be in the Roman mythology. It's not even close to draw the same conclusion when calling America "Brit-America" in the far future unless you are talking about the Revolution era. Also this block can't possibly take place in Greece, so why call it Greek mythology alone?
Also I bet you anything they will draw Roman satyrs like just about every fantasy does, so it will undeniably have Roman elements (if it indeed is a Greco-Roman set).
On top of that, we have 0 confirmation that it is (if based on this theme) solely based on either Greek or Roman mythology alone, so calling it Greco-Roman would be more correct until we find out this info- because we simply do not know if it is one or the other... and "Theros" and "Nyx" aren't enough to confirm anything yet... considering they have Therae and Nox. Usually (I think because we are used to our planets being named "Mars" and "Jupiter" so it sounds stupid to many people) we are more of fans of using the Greek names for everything in fantasy even if we make it based more on Rome style (like using gladiator matches, empires, the addition of mongolian-like races, barbarians, etc).
An absence of evidence means that we should assume more about the block and not less? That makes no sense.
Again, Romans drew from all corners of the empire, not just Greece. You can keep focusing on the Greek/Roman pantheon as your basis for similarity, but what about the mystery cults of Isis and Mithras like I mentioned before? What about the Imperial cult? Roman religion is not as cut and dry as you suppose, and it is not a pure derivative of Greek mythology. Like you said, we know 0 about the block - except that the names of the sets are etymologically Greek. There is no reason to extend our speculation beyond that, let alone to a culture that was shaped considerably by factors outside of Greece.
Wow, you really just summed up your argument by inferring that all Native American cultures are the same? I'd love to hear what any one of those tribes would have to say about your train of thought.
Being the same genetically is not the same as being the same culturally, just as geographic proximity does not equate to identical cultures. That was my point about originating in Africa, but it appears to have gone over your head.
I wasnt inferring they were the same ... I chose my words careful to say they are similar.
Similar is not the same as same.
Greeks and romans weren't identical, they just have similar cultures and I have given resons for this similarity.
I would appeciate a point that wasnt so extreme as it often can be misleading.
(Cant belive we spent nearly 2 pages arguing about the inspiration for this block) I mean there are old arabian nights set and portal set that had very clear inspirations. so to see another set that might be working quite closesly with its inspiration is nice to see
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No that we should be vague rather than specific to one state. Makes perfect sense.
There is also the small fact that the codename was coincidentally named "Friends, Romans, Countrymen" for a block that uses a mythology they share.
I updated my last post.
Also: a concurrence between set code names and theme would set a precedent in Magic. Like you said, coincidence. That is not an indication of anything whatsoever, let alone evidence of Roman influence.
I wasnt inferring they were the same ... I chose my words careful to say they are similar.
Similar is not the same as same.
Greeks and romans weren't identical, they just have similar cultures and I have given resons for this similarity.
I would appeciate a point that wasnt so extreme as it often can be misleading.
And similarity is not enough to justify the inclusion of a separate culture in a discussion about a Greek themed block. The term Greco-Roman itself refers to the influence of both the Greeks and the Romans on the entire Mediterranean, not simply their influence on each other. If you can justify Roman culture as an extension of Greek culture (a terrible fallacy to begin with), then you can justify the inclusion of almost any other Hellenized region in the forthcoming block.
I mean I speculate that it's definitely not going to be a Roman set (if using this theme) if that is what you think.
I speculate that it will either be Greek alone or Greco-Roman. I refer to it as generally Greco-Roman until it is specifically shown that it will have no Roman in it. Nothing wrong with that and nothing unintelligent about it.
If it IS Greco-Roman, I speculate it will use mostly Greek sounding names, Roman satyrs, hints to gladiator stuff, but Greek armor (their helmets looked much more mean like in 300 than the more modern Roman ones with the flaps), they could choose the Roman name furies over erynes if included and maybe use Roman "us" suffixes to some names.
Also not unintelligent or outlandish things to assume in my opinion. Common in fantasy on this pantheon.
I mean I speculate that it's definitely not going to be a Roman set (if using this theme) if that is what you think.
I speculate that it will either be Greek alone or Greco-Roman. I refer to it as generally Greco-Roman until it is specifically shown that it will have no Roman in it. Nothing wrong with that and nothing unintelligent about it.
If it IS Greco-Roman, I speculate it will use mostly Greek sounding names, Roman satyrs, hints to gladiator stuff, but Greek armor (their helmets looked much more mean like in 300 than the more modern Roman ones with the flaps), they could choose the Roman name furies over erynes if included and maybe use Roman "us" suffixes to some names.
Also not unintelligent or outlandish things to assume in my opinion. Common in fantasy on this pantheon.
Except that there is no indication of anything Roman whatsoever, which means that you're just making assumptions at this point. I'll leave it to you to decide what's wrong and unintelligent about making baseless assumptions.
You still haven't commented on my point about Roman religion.
Accept that there is no indication of anything Roman whatsoever, which means that you're just making assumptions at this point. I'll leave it to you to decide what's wrong and unintelligent about making baseless assumptions.
You still haven't commented on my point about Roman religion.
I'm not making any assumptions, that's my point. I'm generally calling it the whole Greek Roman mythos until it is said that it is specifically Greek alone and we see it has no Roman elements at all which is unlikely since we usually group them together.
On the Roman religion and their addition in some gods and addition of cults, that is a very specific part of it that matters not when generally referring to a card game using a mythology as it's basis.
Don't forget, magic is going to use it's own planet, it's own states and storyline. The Gods and theme and the characters and "factions" in it will follow their own made culture as Maro has said when it comes to their themes. Adding Greek names doesn't necessarily make it Greek alone.
Lets look at a couple other fantasy examples that use their own worlds rather than being based specifically in Greece or Rome, but use Greek or Roman mythology:
-D&D Pantheons. In D&D, also owned by Wizards, they call the pantheon the "Greco-Roman pantheon."
-Kid Icarus, a game in it's own world based on the same mythology. From it's official site: "The universe of Kid Icarus borrows heavily from Greco-Roman mythology" (even though they use Greek names)
I'm not making any assumptions, that's my point. I'm generally calling it the whole Greek Roman mythos until it is said that it is specifically Greek alone and we see it has no Roman elements at all which is unlikely since we usually group them together.
On the Roman religion and their addition in some gods and addition of cults, that is a very specific part of it that matters not when generally referring to a card game using a mythology as it's basis.
Don't forget, magic is going to use it's own planet, it's own states and storyline. The Gods and theme and the characters and "factions" in it will follow their own made culture as Maro has said when it comes to their themes. Adding Greek names doesn't necessarily make it Greek alone.
Lets look at a couple other fantasy examples that use their own worlds rather than being based specifically in Greece or Rome, but use Greek or Roman mythology:
-D&D Pantheons. In D&D, also owned by Wizards, they call the pantheon the "Greco-Roman pantheon."
-Kid Icarus, a game in it's own world based on the same mythology. From it's official site: "The universe of Kid Icarus borrows heavily from Greco-Roman mythology" (even though they use Greek names)
Then your argument that Greek = Roman because they share the same religion falls apart. It is not immaterial.
All of these generalizations about what the rest of the world perceives has me very concerned. I don't know why Greece and Rome should automatically go together for you, but you'd be laughed out of the room in an academic setting. I, for one, am perfectly capable of hearing 'Greece' and thinking about Greece, not Rome. Why that is so difficult for you is beyond me.
And one more time, let's review your chain of logic: we know the set names sound Greek, but there is no indication of anything Roman. Therefor we should assume the influence of Roman culture, because even though it does not specifically mention Rome, it also does not specifically say Roman culture will not be included in the block. Thus it is smarter to assume a a broader theme based on the very limited and narrow information we possess. I hope I got that right. So, since Wizards hasn't specifically said that Nazis won't be in the next block, should we assume their inclusion as well?
Therefor we should assume the influence of Roman culture, because even though it does not specifically mention Rome, it also does not specifically say Roman culture will not be included in the block. Thus it is smarter to assume a a broader theme based on the very limited and narrow information we possess.
And yet the only things we can go on to say its greek is the names theros and nyx :/. Both of which are quite minor deitys of greek mythology.
The broader assumption is greco-roman. So there are we happy now?
Expect Gods of a mythlogical kind toying with mortals, expect minotaurs and other mythical creatures and expect mighty legionnares fighting these creatures.
For those interested the opening cinematic for Age of Mythology by microsoft seems similar to what we could expect Youtube link age of mythology
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"Journey into Nyx"
Oh man, I can smell the Yawgmoth speculators already.
Twist-ending: IT WAS KAMIGAWA THE WHOLE TIME!
Or the eldrazi show up and get *****slapped by Wrath variants.
I'd actually really enjoy that.
Especially if it was the topic of the next 'summer magic' product.
I'm normally the first person to get into a semantic argument about greek vs. Roman stuff, but geez guys. It's Magic, not a textbook.
Somehow, I have a feeling people didn't have any Buddhism/Shintoism debates when Kamigawa was looming.
But maybe I underestimate the community.
When it comes down to it, the mythologies are really VISUALLY SIMILAR, and to a lesser degree, thematically similar, as far as almost all writing on the matter is concerend.
This is mostly the renaissance's fault. And I'm all for making them as distinct as they really are. But a few hundred years of artists and writers conflating mercury and hermes and eros and cupid and herakles and hercules and ares and mars is a tough thing to fight against.
In every thread about this next block its arguments for "roman vs greece" or its "greco-roman" really peeps we need to stop this, I think its what 4 threads now if not more.
I'd love to move on, but I don't think we can until people pick up a history book instead of pulling facts out of their ass.
To the world around, and this is what matters, the Roman Mythologies and the Grecian Mythologies are similar. It will likely be influenced by Roman myth and statements regardless of holding a heavy Grecian base. It matters not that it is distinctly Grecian so far in the very very small images we have confirmed for the set, but that to the world around, they are indistinct from the other beyond naming conventions.
Most people also don't associate Isis and the other random gods from other religions or deification of emperors as distinctly Roman either. Or bother to link it to Rome. Like most people don't think of Claudius making his horse a senator (or involving it in orgies) when they think of Rome off hand. As well as most people thinking of the Roman empire rather than the Roman republic. Or the line is blurred.
I think the issue is from the fact that people are meaning different things, or including different swaths, of Greece and (more importantly)Rome when someone states Greco-Roman.
Anyway, so we have an odd coincidence of having one of the most famous Roman Speeches as the codename along with a Grecian Themed named block. Honestly, a coincidence that is not. They purposely gave it that name because unlike Hook, Line, and Sinker, any name relevant to the block would have given a lot away. That being said, I have quite the confidence that Huey, Dewey, and Louie have nothing to do with Donald Duck or the House of Mouse.
Zendikar's was ironic (Live Long and Prosper) and a lot of the others are, if you look at it, generally related to the set in some way (obscurely, usually) except when the set code name is so out there that they don't want speculation. Hook, Line, and Sinker is in no way evocative of Return to Ravnica. Shake, Rattle, and Roll was Innistrad, but I wasn't playing in that block to give a clue on why gambling was linked to the setting as well as other. Maybe it was a reference to Crossing the Rubicon as a point of no turning back, like the die was cast and Avacyn was restored?
Though I think this might be a relatively new thing. Or I could be drawing conjectures out of nowhere, but the point is, it is only a coincidence if it wasn't MANUFACTURED by the same people. Two people meeting at the same place is a coincidence. Two people planning to meet somewhere is not.
So, yeah.
Edit: This does not mean it won't be Greek, but assuming one or the other until the full facts are out is a bit odd. Saying it is Greco-Roman is not necessarily correct, but the idea that Roman influences will not be added (when we only have set name, code names, and art to go off) is likely the least probable of things in the long run.
I'd love to move on, but I don't think we can until people pick up a history book instead of pulling facts out of their ass.
Not only are you being pompous, you're also incorrect. Ancient Greek can be studied as a separate discipline: it's a separate language from the Latin of the Romans, and we have preserved texts directly from ancient greece. However, Greek culture as we understand it, including the entire foundation of Western thought (philosophy/empirical scientific method), has been preserved for us by the Romans.
A set cannot be based on Greek mythology sans Roman influence because our understanding of what Greek mythology is does not exist without Roman influence.
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Most people don't confuse Claudius with his nephew Caligula either.
The fact is that most people here clearly have no conception of Rome at all, and yet these armchair historians espouse the great 'Greco-Roman' myth, based on some hurried wiki reading no doubt, as the basis for a block that we know nothing about besides a few names and scraps of art. I'm not saying that Theros definitely won't include Roman influences, but that is a conversation best left for the Baseless Speculation sub-forum.
Zendikar's was ironic (Live Long and Prosper) and a lot of the others are, if you look at it, generally related to the set in some way (obscurely, usually) except when the set code name is so out there that they don't want speculation. Hook, Line, and Sinker is in no way evocative of Return to Ravnica. Shake, Rattle, and Roll was Innistrad, but I wasn't playing in that block to give a clue on why gambling was linked to the setting as well as other.
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Shake Rattle and Roll i remember reading somewhere was suppose to relate to bones and innistrad horror theme?
Hook Line and Sinker I can only assume was because Ravnica was the most popular set of all time so the hook was the first 5 guilds the line was the other and the sinker will be what evens up in DGM marketing at its greatest.
But there have been some weird ones like Ravnicas orginal block being Ctrl + Alt+ Delete
Yeah This is probably the closest we have ever come to the codenames being related to the set.
Off Topic: Funny thing Huey, Dewey, and Louie were almost going to be for Ravnica city of guilds and for those wanting a Kamigawa reprint Blood, Sweat, and Tears was also almost likely to be the codename for that set. But now its due for 2015 hmmm makes you wonder Souce
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Very true. But most people don't likely know enough about the Roman Emperors to know that Claudius was Caligula's nephew.
I just don't know why the argument need occur until later on anyway. We have Months to wait before any official card is likely printed or spoiled in some fashion. Besides, for any speculation to occur, what we likely will speculate themetically is both present in Greek and Roman in some fashion.
Edit: In the minds of most people, Ravnica was basically a System Manager Call-Up to fix the mess Kamigawa was.
Not only are you being pompous, you're also incorrect. Ancient Greek can be studied as a separate discipline: it's a separate language from the Latin of the Romans, and we have preserved texts directly from ancient greece. However, Greek culture as we understand it, including the entire foundation of Western thought (philosophy/empirical scientific method), has been preserved for us by the Romans.
A set cannot be based on Greek mythology sans Roman influence because our understanding of what Greek mythology is does not exist without Roman influence.
So, that encompasses gladiators and legionnaires how? My commentary doesn't exist in a vacuum, it was originally (and has been since) a deliberate response to the ignorance and misleading rumors abounding in this thread. Furthermore, viewing the ancient Greeks through the lens of Roman society does not mean that we cannot or should not seek to differentiate them objectively. That's pretty much the aim of history and historiography. Your inability (along with everyone else here, apparently) to distinguish between the two has no bearing on the world of academia or scholarly thinking, and if that makes me pompous then I wear the epithet with pride.
Please, tell me more about how incorrect I am. I'm sure my history professors would love a good old-fashioned 'cool story bro.'
Very true. But most people don't likely know enough about the Roman Emperors to know that Claudius was Caligula's uncle.
I just don't know why the argument need occur until later on anyway. We have Months to wait before any official card is likely printed or spoiled in some fashion. Besides, for any speculation to occur, what we likely will speculate themetically is both present in Greek and Roman in some fashion.
Edit: In the minds of most people, Ravnica was basically a System Manager Call-Up to fix the mess Kamigawa was.
Most people don't confuse Claudius with his nephew Caligula either.
The fact is that most people here clearly have no conception of Rome at all, and yet these armchair historians espouse the great 'Greco-Roman' myth, based on some hurried wiki reading no doubt, as the basis for a block that we know nothing about besides a few names and scraps of art. I'm not saying that Theros definitely won't include Roman influences, but that is a conversation best left for the Baseless Speculation sub-forum.
I made this account just so i could point something out: As someone who knows their stuff, you are completely correct in that you shouldn't make assumptions that the set will have Roman influence when we have no proof of it.
The problem exists in the fact that you know your facts. Most people don't know the difference between Greek and Roman mythology and culture past what is taught in history classes in highschool. Because of this, the assumption that they would make a set, and strictly adhere to just ONE of the cultures, when the majority of people that will be playing the set wont know or care about the difference, is flawed.
you are completely correct that they are not the same thing, but the majority of people dont care at all. And the speculation isn't baseless because the majority of people assume that if it has Grecian influence, it will ALSO have Roman influence.
First, the Beaver is correct in that the 'Heroic Age' Greek culture is rather unlike the Hellenistic culture of Alexander that Rome more or less 'inherited'.
Putting that aside for the moment, though...
What do we know?
We have Theros, which is Greek in the same manner that Ravnica is Slavic (can't remember which language, exactly, at the moment). We have 'Born of the Gods', which definitely implies a pantheon of interfering Gods, which is typical of any Classical period. Nyx is, again, Greek.
We also have a piece of artwork that was used to preview the block. Assuming that WotC did their usual thorough job, there are a couple of very interesting points about that art. First, for any American, the landscape background fairly screams 'Pastoral Symphony' Fantasia, which is a Greek homage. Then there's the warrior.
His spear? Not something you use by the time of the Roman Republic, much less the Empire. You _might_ get away with that in a phalanx, but the guy's not a hoplite or anywhere close to it. No armor reminiscent of the time period. No, this art clearly refers to the Heroic Age of Greece, and therefore should be pre-Roman in its influences.
I'm not saying WotC can't put in Roman influences, or that it won't. Just saying that the evidence we have so far does not point to anything but Greek influence. (I'm hoping for one culture per color, with Rome as White and Greece as Red.)
For full disclosure, I know how all of you feel, because I had just gotten my Japanese degree when Kamigawa came out. I think we can all rest assured that WotC will 'get this right'.
The most that can be said to any degree of certainty about this matter, is that we'll be getting a block that hits a lot of popular culture tropes about Greek mythology. Their historical validity is moot since the block won't be taking place in Ancient Greece. They did a lot of work researching Japanese culture for Kamigawa, but for the most part, as I think Luminum Can pointed out earlier in this thread, that paid off in a lot of people going "huh?" about a lot of things they didn't expect.
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Wow, you really just summed up your argument by inferring that all Native American cultures are the same? I'd love to hear what any one of those tribes would have to say about your train of thought.
Being the same genetically is not the same as being the same culturally, just as geographic proximity does not equate to identical cultures. That was my point about originating in Africa, but it appears to have gone over your head.
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Just about everything in Greek mythology (except the Titanomachy and origin I believe) is nearly EXACTLY the same in Roman mythology, hence Greco-Roman. Everything we cover in this block will no doubt also be in the Roman mythology. It's not even close to draw the same conclusion when calling America "Brit-America" in the far future unless you are talking about the Revolution era. Also this block can't possibly take place in Greece, so why call it Greek mythology alone?
Also I bet you anything they will draw Roman satyrs like just about every fantasy does, so it will undeniably have Roman elements (if it indeed is a Greco-Roman set).
On top of that, we have 0 confirmation that it is (if based on this theme) solely based on either Greek or Roman mythology alone, so calling it Greco-Roman would be more correct until we find out this info- because we simply do not know if it is one or the other... and "Theros" and "Nyx" aren't enough to confirm anything yet... considering they have Therae and Nox. Usually (I think because we are used to our planets being named "Mars" and "Jupiter" so it sounds stupid to many people) we are more of fans of using the Greek names for everything in fantasy even if we make it based more on Rome style (like using gladiator matches, empires, the addition of mongolian-like races, barbarians, etc).
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An absence of evidence means that we should assume more about the block and not less? That makes no sense.
Again, Romans drew from all corners of the empire, not just Greece. You can keep focusing on the Greek/Roman pantheon as your basis for similarity, but what about the mystery cults of Isis and Mithras like I mentioned before? What about the Imperial cult? Roman religion is not as cut and dry as you suppose, and it is not a pure derivative of Greek mythology. Like you said, we know 0 about the block - except that the names of the sets are etymologically Greek. There is no reason to extend our speculation beyond that, let alone to a culture that was shaped considerably by factors outside of Greece.
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No that we should be vague rather than specific to one state. Makes perfect sense.
There is also the small fact that the codename was coincidentally named "Friends, Romans, Countrymen" for a block that uses a mythology they share.
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I wasnt inferring they were the same ... I chose my words careful to say they are similar.
Similar is not the same as same.
Greeks and romans weren't identical, they just have similar cultures and I have given resons for this similarity.
I would appeciate a point that wasnt so extreme as it often can be misleading.
(Cant belive we spent nearly 2 pages arguing about the inspiration for this block) I mean there are old arabian nights set and portal set that had very clear inspirations. so to see another set that might be working quite closesly with its inspiration is nice to see
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I updated my last post.
Also: a concurrence between set code names and theme would set a precedent in Magic. Like you said, coincidence. That is not an indication of anything whatsoever, let alone evidence of Roman influence.
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And similarity is not enough to justify the inclusion of a separate culture in a discussion about a Greek themed block. The term Greco-Roman itself refers to the influence of both the Greeks and the Romans on the entire Mediterranean, not simply their influence on each other. If you can justify Roman culture as an extension of Greek culture (a terrible fallacy to begin with), then you can justify the inclusion of almost any other Hellenized region in the forthcoming block.
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I speculate that it will either be Greek alone or Greco-Roman. I refer to it as generally Greco-Roman until it is specifically shown that it will have no Roman in it. Nothing wrong with that and nothing unintelligent about it.
If it IS Greco-Roman, I speculate it will use mostly Greek sounding names, Roman satyrs, hints to gladiator stuff, but Greek armor (their helmets looked much more mean like in 300 than the more modern Roman ones with the flaps), they could choose the Roman name furies over erynes if included and maybe use Roman "us" suffixes to some names.
Also not unintelligent or outlandish things to assume in my opinion. Common in fantasy on this pantheon.
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Except that there is no indication of anything Roman whatsoever, which means that you're just making assumptions at this point. I'll leave it to you to decide what's wrong and unintelligent about making baseless assumptions.
You still haven't commented on my point about Roman religion.
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I'm not making any assumptions, that's my point. I'm generally calling it the whole Greek Roman mythos until it is said that it is specifically Greek alone and we see it has no Roman elements at all which is unlikely since we usually group them together.
On the Roman religion and their addition in some gods and addition of cults, that is a very specific part of it that matters not when generally referring to a card game using a mythology as it's basis.
Don't forget, magic is going to use it's own planet, it's own states and storyline. The Gods and theme and the characters and "factions" in it will follow their own made culture as Maro has said when it comes to their themes. Adding Greek names doesn't necessarily make it Greek alone.
Lets look at a couple other fantasy examples that use their own worlds rather than being based specifically in Greece or Rome, but use Greek or Roman mythology:
-D&D Pantheons. In D&D, also owned by Wizards, they call the pantheon the "Greco-Roman pantheon."
-Kid Icarus, a game in it's own world based on the same mythology. From it's official site: "The universe of Kid Icarus borrows heavily from Greco-Roman mythology" (even though they use Greek names)
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Then your argument that Greek = Roman because they share the same religion falls apart. It is not immaterial.
All of these generalizations about what the rest of the world perceives has me very concerned. I don't know why Greece and Rome should automatically go together for you, but you'd be laughed out of the room in an academic setting. I, for one, am perfectly capable of hearing 'Greece' and thinking about Greece, not Rome. Why that is so difficult for you is beyond me.
And one more time, let's review your chain of logic: we know the set names sound Greek, but there is no indication of anything Roman. Therefor we should assume the influence of Roman culture, because even though it does not specifically mention Rome, it also does not specifically say Roman culture will not be included in the block. Thus it is smarter to assume a a broader theme based on the very limited and narrow information we possess. I hope I got that right. So, since Wizards hasn't specifically said that Nazis won't be in the next block, should we assume their inclusion as well?
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And yet the only things we can go on to say its greek is the names theros and nyx :/. Both of which are quite minor deitys of greek mythology.
The broader assumption is greco-roman. So there are we happy now?
Expect Gods of a mythlogical kind toying with mortals, expect minotaurs and other mythical creatures and expect mighty legionnares fighting these creatures.
For those interested the opening cinematic for Age of Mythology by microsoft seems similar to what we could expect Youtube link age of mythology
Decks used- GGarruk vs LilianaB, WElsepth vs TezzeretU, WGKnights vs DragonsR
WGRAjani vs BolasRUB, WUVenser vs KothR, RUIzzet vs GolgariGB.
WBSorin vs TibaltBR, WRHeros vs Monsters RG
Want to see other duel decks I made ? Check out my Blog ! Feel free to post advice or give topics for me to make duel decks out of. Check out the Theros Block Planeswalker Theme Duel Decks Elspeth, Xenagos, Ashok, Kiora, Ajani
Oh man, I can smell the Yawgmoth speculators already.
Twist-ending: IT WAS KAMIGAWA THE WHOLE TIME!
Or the eldrazi show up and get *****slapped by Wrath variants.
I'd actually really enjoy that.
Especially if it was the topic of the next 'summer magic' product.
I'm normally the first person to get into a semantic argument about greek vs. Roman stuff, but geez guys. It's Magic, not a textbook.
Somehow, I have a feeling people didn't have any Buddhism/Shintoism debates when Kamigawa was looming.
But maybe I underestimate the community.
When it comes down to it, the mythologies are really VISUALLY SIMILAR, and to a lesser degree, thematically similar, as far as almost all writing on the matter is concerend.
This is mostly the renaissance's fault. And I'm all for making them as distinct as they really are. But a few hundred years of artists and writers conflating mercury and hermes and eros and cupid and herakles and hercules and ares and mars is a tough thing to fight against.
I'd love to move on, but I don't think we can until people pick up a history book instead of pulling facts out of their ass.
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Most people also don't associate Isis and the other random gods from other religions or deification of emperors as distinctly Roman either. Or bother to link it to Rome. Like most people don't think of Claudius making his horse a senator (or involving it in orgies) when they think of Rome off hand. As well as most people thinking of the Roman empire rather than the Roman republic. Or the line is blurred.
I think the issue is from the fact that people are meaning different things, or including different swaths, of Greece and (more importantly)Rome when someone states Greco-Roman.
Anyway, so we have an odd coincidence of having one of the most famous Roman Speeches as the codename along with a Grecian Themed named block. Honestly, a coincidence that is not. They purposely gave it that name because unlike Hook, Line, and Sinker, any name relevant to the block would have given a lot away. That being said, I have quite the confidence that Huey, Dewey, and Louie have nothing to do with Donald Duck or the House of Mouse.
Zendikar's was ironic (Live Long and Prosper) and a lot of the others are, if you look at it, generally related to the set in some way (obscurely, usually) except when the set code name is so out there that they don't want speculation. Hook, Line, and Sinker is in no way evocative of Return to Ravnica. Shake, Rattle, and Roll was Innistrad, but I wasn't playing in that block to give a clue on why gambling was linked to the setting as well as other. Maybe it was a reference to Crossing the Rubicon as a point of no turning back, like the die was cast and Avacyn was restored?
Though I think this might be a relatively new thing. Or I could be drawing conjectures out of nowhere, but the point is, it is only a coincidence if it wasn't MANUFACTURED by the same people. Two people meeting at the same place is a coincidence. Two people planning to meet somewhere is not.
So, yeah.
Edit: This does not mean it won't be Greek, but assuming one or the other until the full facts are out is a bit odd. Saying it is Greco-Roman is not necessarily correct, but the idea that Roman influences will not be added (when we only have set name, code names, and art to go off) is likely the least probable of things in the long run.
Not only are you being pompous, you're also incorrect. Ancient Greek can be studied as a separate discipline: it's a separate language from the Latin of the Romans, and we have preserved texts directly from ancient greece. However, Greek culture as we understand it, including the entire foundation of Western thought (philosophy/empirical scientific method), has been preserved for us by the Romans.
A set cannot be based on Greek mythology sans Roman influence because our understanding of what Greek mythology is does not exist without Roman influence.
Whenever a player taps a nonbasic land, [Card] deals 2 damage to them.
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Whenever a player would gain life, flip a coin. If heads, that player loses that much life instead. If tails sacrifice [card] and that player gains that life as per usual.
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The fact is that most people here clearly have no conception of Rome at all, and yet these armchair historians espouse the great 'Greco-Roman' myth, based on some hurried wiki reading no doubt, as the basis for a block that we know nothing about besides a few names and scraps of art. I'm not saying that Theros definitely won't include Roman influences, but that is a conversation best left for the Baseless Speculation sub-forum.
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Shake Rattle and Roll i remember reading somewhere was suppose to relate to bones and innistrad horror theme?
Hook Line and Sinker I can only assume was because Ravnica was the most popular set of all time so the hook was the first 5 guilds the line was the other and the sinker will be what evens up in DGM marketing at its greatest.
But there have been some weird ones like Ravnicas orginal block being Ctrl + Alt+ Delete
Yeah This is probably the closest we have ever come to the codenames being related to the set.
Off Topic: Funny thing Huey, Dewey, and Louie were almost going to be for Ravnica city of guilds and for those wanting a Kamigawa reprint Blood, Sweat, and Tears was also almost likely to be the codename for that set. But now its due for 2015 hmmm makes you wonder Souce
Decks used- GGarruk vs LilianaB, WElsepth vs TezzeretU, WGKnights vs DragonsR
WGRAjani vs BolasRUB, WUVenser vs KothR, RUIzzet vs GolgariGB.
WBSorin vs TibaltBR, WRHeros vs Monsters RG
Want to see other duel decks I made ? Check out my Blog ! Feel free to post advice or give topics for me to make duel decks out of. Check out the Theros Block Planeswalker Theme Duel Decks Elspeth, Xenagos, Ashok, Kiora, Ajani
I just don't know why the argument need occur until later on anyway. We have Months to wait before any official card is likely printed or spoiled in some fashion. Besides, for any speculation to occur, what we likely will speculate themetically is both present in Greek and Roman in some fashion.
Edit: In the minds of most people, Ravnica was basically a System Manager Call-Up to fix the mess Kamigawa was.
So, that encompasses gladiators and legionnaires how? My commentary doesn't exist in a vacuum, it was originally (and has been since) a deliberate response to the ignorance and misleading rumors abounding in this thread. Furthermore, viewing the ancient Greeks through the lens of Roman society does not mean that we cannot or should not seek to differentiate them objectively. That's pretty much the aim of history and historiography. Your inability (along with everyone else here, apparently) to distinguish between the two has no bearing on the world of academia or scholarly thinking, and if that makes me pompous then I wear the epithet with pride.
Please, tell me more about how incorrect I am. I'm sure my history professors would love a good old-fashioned 'cool story bro.'
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Sorry, I had to fix this for you.
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I made this account just so i could point something out: As someone who knows their stuff, you are completely correct in that you shouldn't make assumptions that the set will have Roman influence when we have no proof of it.
The problem exists in the fact that you know your facts. Most people don't know the difference between Greek and Roman mythology and culture past what is taught in history classes in highschool. Because of this, the assumption that they would make a set, and strictly adhere to just ONE of the cultures, when the majority of people that will be playing the set wont know or care about the difference, is flawed.
you are completely correct that they are not the same thing, but the majority of people dont care at all. And the speculation isn't baseless because the majority of people assume that if it has Grecian influence, it will ALSO have Roman influence.
First, the Beaver is correct in that the 'Heroic Age' Greek culture is rather unlike the Hellenistic culture of Alexander that Rome more or less 'inherited'.
Putting that aside for the moment, though...
What do we know?
We have Theros, which is Greek in the same manner that Ravnica is Slavic (can't remember which language, exactly, at the moment). We have 'Born of the Gods', which definitely implies a pantheon of interfering Gods, which is typical of any Classical period. Nyx is, again, Greek.
We also have a piece of artwork that was used to preview the block. Assuming that WotC did their usual thorough job, there are a couple of very interesting points about that art. First, for any American, the landscape background fairly screams 'Pastoral Symphony' Fantasia, which is a Greek homage. Then there's the warrior.
His spear? Not something you use by the time of the Roman Republic, much less the Empire. You _might_ get away with that in a phalanx, but the guy's not a hoplite or anywhere close to it. No armor reminiscent of the time period. No, this art clearly refers to the Heroic Age of Greece, and therefore should be pre-Roman in its influences.
I'm not saying WotC can't put in Roman influences, or that it won't. Just saying that the evidence we have so far does not point to anything but Greek influence. (I'm hoping for one culture per color, with Rome as White and Greece as Red.)
For full disclosure, I know how all of you feel, because I had just gotten my Japanese degree when Kamigawa came out. I think we can all rest assured that WotC will 'get this right'.