I wouldn't be surprised to see a Chandra with four abilities. Maro has said JTMS won't stop them doing it again, and they're probably going to really want to push this Chandra. Not saying it will happen, but it's a definite possibility.
Let me try on this:
Chandra, the Competitive
1RR 3 Loyality
+1 Chandra deals 1 damage to each opponent or 2 damage to target creature
0 Draw a card then discard a card.
-2 Put two R 1/1 Elemental Creature-tokens into play.
The +1s are too powerful if you want her to be a 3 cost. Lily's +1 is like that because it is supposed to be a drawback. People work around it to make it work, but the ability isn't spectacular by itself.
How about
Chandra, the cheesy name planeswalker. 1RR
+1: draw a card, then discard a card.
-2: deal 2 damage divided among any number of creatures and/or planeswalkers.
-4: Destroy up to 2 Target lands.
Loyalty 3
For Chandra to be both good and appealing, she needs to fulfill two very simple purposes:
-Apply immediate pressure. All the previous Chandra versions saw marginal play, yet Koth was played due to actually doing what you want in a red deck - Killing your opponent. Nalaar was way too slow, Ablaze cost too much and Firebrand, while having a cute duplicate ability, was also too slow. Assuming she survives for ~3 turns, you really want a 4CC card to do more than 3 damage.
-Deal damage. This is a signature of Chandra, and the key in any red deck. If Chandra is any good for dealing damage, whether it be to creatures or players, she will have a chance at being played due to either dealing with threats or racing your opponent.
In short, she needs to contribute to winning the game. Getting high-cost removal or slow ticking damage like the previous versions doesn't work, as we've seen already.
Allow me to jump on the bandwagon:
1RR
[+1] ~ deals 2 damage to target player.
[-1] Put a 2/2 red creature token with flying and haste onto the battlefield.
[-4] ~ deals 4 damage to each opponent and each creature that player controls.
(2)
+1 Is sorta like a Vortex - You don't take damage from it, but then again, she can still be killed, and even stopped before getting the ability off.
As a red mage, you don't want the game to drag out too long, which is why the ultimate is actually within reach, in comparison to most others. Might up the cost to 5 if it deems too powerful.
The token is her Phoenix, of course. It could be replaced by a 3/1 elemental, if it's too strong, or could even be a -2.
They left out the part where Yawgmoth is resurrected,but has been cleansed as Yawgmoth the Redeemed,and now must awaken Chromium so that Karn can fuse with him and create what can only be known as : the ultimate taco.
I think that hey first 2 abilities are too powerful for 3, the older chandras costed more and dealt less Dmg. However I think that nerfing the +1 to just 1dmg and the -1 to a 2/1 haster with no flying would make her fair and powerful enough.
I think that hey first 2 abilities are too powerful for 3, the older chandras costed more and dealt less Dmg. However I think that nerfing the +1 to just 1dmg and the -1 to a 2/1 haster with no flying would make her fair and powerful enough.
The nerf to the - ability seems fair, but the problem lies with nerfing the +. As I stated, she needs to be fairly aggresive if they want her to see any play (If we're talking mono-red, that is). Pinging the opponent for 1 damage every turn isn't going to cut it.
They left out the part where Yawgmoth is resurrected,but has been cleansed as Yawgmoth the Redeemed,and now must awaken Chromium so that Karn can fuse with him and create what can only be known as : the ultimate taco.
why the hell would they put it on there flagship planewalker for the set?
They will never print stone rain again the wont put it or anything like it on a planewalker. Even if it is limited to non basics.
Thats just not on! and for a core set espcially.
I am 100% certain chandra will not have land destruction as part of her abilities.
It doesn't really fit her anyway, Koth is the land based Red planeswalker.
The elemental tokens thing is interesting... I kind of think it isn't quite chandra's thing.... It would have to be something like put a "2/2 flying haste token into play exile it at end of turn"
Or have the tokens related to instants and sorceries. "put an emblem into play that says "whenever you cast an instant or sorcery put a 1/1 elemental token into play"
I feel like direct damage and Instants and sorcery based abilities are were Chandra is at.
why the hell would they put it on there flagship planewalker for the set?
They will never print stone rain again the wont put it or anything like it on a planewalker. Even if it is limited to non basics.
Thats just not on! and for a core set espcially.
I am 100% certain chandra will not have land destruction as part of her abilities.
It doesn't really fit her anyway, Koth is the land based Red planeswalker.
The elemental tokens thing is interesting... I kind of think it isn't quite chandra's thing.... It would have to be something like put a "2/2 flying haste token into play exile it at end of turn"
Or have the tokens related to instants and sorceries. "put an emblem into play that says "whenever you cast an instant or sorcery put a 1/1 elemental token into play"
I feel like direct damage and Instants and sorcery based abilities are were Chandra is at.
WotC does not hate land destruction (if they did, they'd never print cards that can destroy lands). They just think that :2mana::symr: is to cheap for a LD spell. And as much as I love LD, I agree. It was simply to fast and to efficient to make for a fun game. Thus why they have toned down the amount of LD, and increased the cost a little.
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It's about time for the reserved list to die, for the sake of Vintage and Legacy (And Commander).
Any chandra with RR in th emana cost will be predominantly red. There are not many predominantly red decks in any format that want to go to the mid game so the total cost of new chandra should be 3. The +1/+2 ability needs to do somthing that predominantly red decks (again, not looking to get into the mid game) want; so it's either burn or card draw. Even looting would be BS unless it was written, +1: discard a card then draw a card.
There are not that many playable variants of a RR requiring planeswalker (let alone so good that they are the face of the block).
Many of the variants people propose are neat but how is 'burn' somhow the lynch pin or even poster child for an entire block?
Burning stuff is what pyromancers do. And that is probably also the reason WotC has trouble making a good chandra that isn't to strong.
Indeed. Looking at all the previous versions of Chandra, they all had direct damage abilities. Problem is, that if she needs to be competitive, one of her repeatable abilities needs to deal enough damage to actually be threatening, and this would probably put her out of balance because she has other abilities to boot.
I think the suggestion with a symmetric + ability that damages each player for 2 damage seems both competitive and balanced.
They left out the part where Yawgmoth is resurrected,but has been cleansed as Yawgmoth the Redeemed,and now must awaken Chromium so that Karn can fuse with him and create what can only be known as : the ultimate taco.
There are not many predominantly red decks in any format that want to go to the mid game
and that's exactly the Red's problem. Now who wants a limping colour that only plays RDW and then maybe gets splashed onto decks that run on other colour's engine?
I hope for a series of red cards that make it viable for the midgame, I hope Wizards R&D are going to consider it and maybe do something about it in the next 10 years..
Name a viable mono-colored archetype outside of RDW?
It's been a long time since WW or MBC were a thing.
Look at decks like Bant, Jund and the like... is blue anything but a splash in Bant? Is green anything but a splash in Jund?
Can you even begin to imagine what a mono-blue Standard deck would look like?
One could certainly argue that this is a sad state of affairs overall, though personally I don't have much of an opinion on the matter, but let's not pretend that red is in any way overlooked or special in this regard. Indeed, if it is special it's because it's the only color with a viable mono-color archetype tied to it.
My point is RDW is the only deck using red as the basic colour (and mono colour usually, even more fail). Or in other words if you want a Red-based deck possibly the only competitive option you have is Blitz
All other colours run well with main X and support/splash Y and running variants blitz/midrange/control depending on combination and sets
If you want to take it a step further, this is because Red has few and very straightforward mechanics haste, first strike, damage, flip coin, treason, +X until end of turn and especially not much in the way of hand manipulation imo
I hope Chandra does something better or at least she does the typical +X, deal damage well enough to see some play along with her colour
Exodite, just look at the representation of red on top8 tournaments or any other top level environment.
I won't answer with specific cards cause we can spend weeks getting nowhere. I sincerely believe that counters+card advantage is already much bigger than anyone else has, that's why pro players love blue so much.
Red has got some hasted first striking goblins and some slow dragons getting destroyed for fun by any colour. Just doesnt work in my humble, personal, opinion. If it works for you than please show me the way to a great red deck because I'm desperately trying to make one
Exodite, just look at the representation of red on top8 tournaments or any other top level environment.
I won't answer with specific cards cause we can spend weeks getting nowhere. I sincerely believe that counters+card advantage is already much bigger than anyone else has, that's why pro players love blue so much.
Red has got some hasted first striking goblins and some slow dragons getting destroyed for fun by any colour. Just doesnt work in my humble, personal, opinion. If it works for you than please show me the way to a great red deck because I'm desperately trying to make one
Hmm... It should be possible to do a RDW type deck in the current (pre-M14) standard.
Something like:
Lands (18)
18 x Mountain
Creatures (22)
4 x Foundry Street Denizen
4 x Goblin Arsonist
2 x Legion Loyalist
2 x Stormkirk Noble
2 x Vexing Devil
3 x Ashmouth Hound
3 x Bloodcrazed Neonate
2 x Guttersnipe
Spells (20)
2 x Dynacharge
2 x Faithless Loothing
3 x Furor of the Bitten
4 x Pillar of Flame
2 x Street Spasm
2 x Weapon Surge
2 x Curse of the Stalked Prey
2 x Mizzium Mortars
1 x Skullcrack
This is just thrown together over a period of five minutes, but it should be a good starting point. You should of course tinker with it a bit, but mono-red, if it so chooses would be able to work just fine in the current standard.
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It's about time for the reserved list to die, for the sake of Vintage and Legacy (And Commander).
the point made a few posts earlier is that red needs something more than the famous old Blitz. They need to do some serious red brainstorming I think, the current mechanics in Red have been limping for a very long time and are largely un-interesting at least to me
Indeed. Looking at all the previous versions of Chandra, they all had direct damage abilities. Problem is, that if she needs to be competitive, one of her repeatable abilities needs to deal enough damage to actually be threatening, and this would probably put her out of balance because she has other abilities to boot.
If they're willing to push the power level I think it is possible to get a playable burn-style planeswalker who is also good enough to be the poster child for the set. The most important thing will be that the they're willing to push the boundaries to make it very good but also test the crap out of it to make sure it's not completely bonkers broken.
Chandra The Incinerator 1RR
+2 - Deal 1 damage to target creature or player. If a creature was dealt damage this way, tap it.
-3 - Flames of the Firebrand.
-8 - Destroy all creatures and artifacts, they can't be regenerated.
Starting Loyalty - 3
Wizards has (and always have) designed the game to reward reactive, thoughtful, patient (read good) game play more than they have aggressive strategies. The reality is that the designers at wizards are gamers and most gamers and lovers of fantasy want, and are used to seeing, the patient, reactive, orderly, intelligent (read good) protagonist beat the aggressive, destructive, chaotic (read evil) antagonist. That 'bad' archetype seems to be most exemplified by red (though they try to fool the community into believing it is black which is a very reactive archetype).
It isn't going to change until the designers of magic change their perception and deeply embedded biases as to what the colors represent.
TL/DR: They need to completely change how they perceive the red archetype or nothing will change.
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There are 10 types of people in this world, those that understand binary and those that don't.
TL/DR: They need to completely change how they perceive the red archetype or nothing will change.
totally agree with this.
I cross my fingers that red gets something it never had before as stated above.
i'm not sure red fits into the evil type, it's been funny at times with the crazy goblins and all - if you'd call it something I 'd say its the brute mindless colour.
So its supposed to be 5 colours with a flavor, not good guys and bad guys, but if that was the case, in my book manipulation=evil so we re looking at blue
Let me try on this:
Chandra, the Competitive
1RR 3 Loyality
+1 Chandra deals 1 damage to each opponent or 2 damage to target creature
0 Draw a card then discard a card.
-2 Put two R 1/1 Elemental Creature-tokens into play.
-5 Destroy 3 target lands.
How about
Chandra, the cheesy name planeswalker. 1RR
+1: draw a card, then discard a card.
-2: deal 2 damage divided among any number of creatures and/or planeswalkers.
-4: Destroy up to 2 Target lands.
Loyalty 3
URBURB
URBURB
-Apply immediate pressure. All the previous Chandra versions saw marginal play, yet Koth was played due to actually doing what you want in a red deck - Killing your opponent. Nalaar was way too slow, Ablaze cost too much and Firebrand, while having a cute duplicate ability, was also too slow. Assuming she survives for ~3 turns, you really want a 4CC card to do more than 3 damage.
-Deal damage. This is a signature of Chandra, and the key in any red deck. If Chandra is any good for dealing damage, whether it be to creatures or players, she will have a chance at being played due to either dealing with threats or racing your opponent.
In short, she needs to contribute to winning the game. Getting high-cost removal or slow ticking damage like the previous versions doesn't work, as we've seen already.
Allow me to jump on the bandwagon:
1RR
[+1] ~ deals 2 damage to target player.
[-1] Put a 2/2 red creature token with flying and haste onto the battlefield.
[-4] ~ deals 4 damage to each opponent and each creature that player controls.
(2)
+1 Is sorta like a Vortex - You don't take damage from it, but then again, she can still be killed, and even stopped before getting the ability off.
As a red mage, you don't want the game to drag out too long, which is why the ultimate is actually within reach, in comparison to most others. Might up the cost to 5 if it deems too powerful.
The token is her Phoenix, of course. It could be replaced by a 3/1 elemental, if it's too strong, or could even be a -2.
URBURB
The nerf to the - ability seems fair, but the problem lies with nerfing the +. As I stated, she needs to be fairly aggresive if they want her to see any play (If we're talking mono-red, that is). Pinging the opponent for 1 damage every turn isn't going to cut it.
1RR
+1 Chandra deals 2 damage to each player
-2 Chandra deals 3 damage to target creature
-6 Jokulhaups
Tiamat, Chromatic Dragon RWUBG
Planeswalker - Tiamat
[+1] Sit on Nicol Bolas
[+0] Wait for him to beg for mercy, rule the multiverse.
[-7] Not necessary, she is the ultimate.
I would like this with 3 starting loyalty and -2 is "destroy target non-basic land"
why the hell would they put it on there flagship planewalker for the set?
They will never print stone rain again the wont put it or anything like it on a planewalker. Even if it is limited to non basics.
Thats just not on! and for a core set espcially.
I am 100% certain chandra will not have land destruction as part of her abilities.
It doesn't really fit her anyway, Koth is the land based Red planeswalker.
The elemental tokens thing is interesting... I kind of think it isn't quite chandra's thing.... It would have to be something like put a "2/2 flying haste token into play exile it at end of turn"
Or have the tokens related to instants and sorceries. "put an emblem into play that says "whenever you cast an instant or sorcery put a 1/1 elemental token into play"
I feel like direct damage and Instants and sorcery based abilities are were Chandra is at.
Pioneer:UR Pheonix
Modern:U Mono U Tron
EDH
GB Glissa, the traitor: Army of Cans
UW Dragonlord Ojutai: Dragonlord NOjutai
UWGDerevi, Empyrial Tactician "you cannot fight the storm"
R Zirilan of the claw. The solution to every problem is dragons
UB Etrata, the Silencer Cloning assassination
Peasant cube: Cards I own
WotC does not hate land destruction (if they did, they'd never print cards that can destroy lands). They just think that :2mana::symr: is to cheap for a LD spell. And as much as I love LD, I agree. It was simply to fast and to efficient to make for a fun game. Thus why they have toned down the amount of LD, and increased the cost a little.
---
Numquam evolutioni obstes. Solum conculceris.
Pascite draconem, evolvite aut morimini.
There are not that many playable variants of a RR requiring planeswalker (let alone so good that they are the face of the block).
Many of the variants people propose are neat but how is 'burn' somhow the lynch pin or even poster child for an entire block?
Indeed. Looking at all the previous versions of Chandra, they all had direct damage abilities. Problem is, that if she needs to be competitive, one of her repeatable abilities needs to deal enough damage to actually be threatening, and this would probably put her out of balance because she has other abilities to boot.
I think the suggestion with a symmetric + ability that damages each player for 2 damage seems both competitive and balanced.
and that's exactly the Red's problem. Now who wants a limping colour that only plays RDW and then maybe gets splashed onto decks that run on other colour's engine?
I hope for a series of red cards that make it viable for the midgame, I hope Wizards R&D are going to consider it and maybe do something about it in the next 10 years..
My point is RDW is the only deck using red as the basic colour (and mono colour usually, even more fail). Or in other words if you want a Red-based deck possibly the only competitive option you have is Blitz
All other colours run well with main X and support/splash Y and running variants blitz/midrange/control depending on combination and sets
If you want to take it a step further, this is because Red has few and very straightforward mechanics haste, first strike, damage, flip coin, treason, +X until end of turn and especially not much in the way of hand manipulation imo
I hope Chandra does something better or at least she does the typical +X, deal damage well enough to see some play along with her colour
That'd make my day. And I would so put her into my Grixis Control.
I won't answer with specific cards cause we can spend weeks getting nowhere. I sincerely believe that counters+card advantage is already much bigger than anyone else has, that's why pro players love blue so much.
Red has got some hasted first striking goblins and some slow dragons getting destroyed for fun by any colour. Just doesnt work in my humble, personal, opinion. If it works for you than please show me the way to a great red deck because I'm desperately trying to make one
Hmm... It should be possible to do a RDW type deck in the current (pre-M14) standard.
Something like:
Lands (18)
18 x Mountain
Creatures (22)
4 x Foundry Street Denizen
4 x Goblin Arsonist
2 x Legion Loyalist
2 x Stormkirk Noble
2 x Vexing Devil
3 x Ashmouth Hound
3 x Bloodcrazed Neonate
2 x Guttersnipe
Spells (20)
2 x Dynacharge
2 x Faithless Loothing
3 x Furor of the Bitten
4 x Pillar of Flame
2 x Street Spasm
2 x Weapon Surge
2 x Curse of the Stalked Prey
2 x Mizzium Mortars
1 x Skullcrack
This is just thrown together over a period of five minutes, but it should be a good starting point. You should of course tinker with it a bit, but mono-red, if it so chooses would be able to work just fine in the current standard.
---
Numquam evolutioni obstes. Solum conculceris.
Pascite draconem, evolvite aut morimini.
the point made a few posts earlier is that red needs something more than the famous old Blitz. They need to do some serious red brainstorming I think, the current mechanics in Red have been limping for a very long time and are largely un-interesting at least to me
If they're willing to push the power level I think it is possible to get a playable burn-style planeswalker who is also good enough to be the poster child for the set. The most important thing will be that the they're willing to push the boundaries to make it very good but also test the crap out of it to make sure it's not completely bonkers broken.
Chandra The Incinerator 1RR
+2 - Deal 1 damage to target creature or player. If a creature was dealt damage this way, tap it.
-3 - Flames of the Firebrand.
-8 - Destroy all creatures and artifacts, they can't be regenerated.
Starting Loyalty - 3
It isn't going to change until the designers of magic change their perception and deeply embedded biases as to what the colors represent.
TL/DR: They need to completely change how they perceive the red archetype or nothing will change.
Tiamat, Chromatic Dragon RWUBG
Planeswalker - Tiamat
[+1] Sit on Nicol Bolas
[+0] Wait for him to beg for mercy, rule the multiverse.
[-7] Not necessary, she is the ultimate.
totally agree with this.
I cross my fingers that red gets something it never had before as stated above.
i'm not sure red fits into the evil type, it's been funny at times with the crazy goblins and all - if you'd call it something I 'd say its the brute mindless colour.
So its supposed to be 5 colours with a flavor, not good guys and bad guys, but if that was the case, in my book manipulation=evil so we re looking at blue
Yup thats a much better way of describing it, and that trope usually plays out as the antagonist in most fantasy/gaming designs.
Tiamat, Chromatic Dragon RWUBG
Planeswalker - Tiamat
[+1] Sit on Nicol Bolas
[+0] Wait for him to beg for mercy, rule the multiverse.
[-7] Not necessary, she is the ultimate.
On Modern Masters 2:
Will be kept until 12/31/2013 to prove if Right or Wrong.Proven right 1/27/2013