MTG Salvation

Quote from IotaNull

I wouldn't be surprised to see a Chandra with four abilities. Maro has said JTMS won't stop them doing it again, and they're probably going to really want to push this Chandra. Not saying it will happen, but it's a definite possibility.

Let me try on this:

Chandra, the Competitive

1RR 3 Loyality

+1 Chandra deals 1 damage to each opponent or 2 damage to target creature

0 Draw a card then discard a card.

-2 Put two R 1/1 Elemental Creature-tokens into play.

-5 Destroy 3 target lands.

The +1s are too powerful if you want her to be a 3 cost. Lily's +1 is like that because it is supposed to be a drawback. People work around it to make it work, but the ability isn't spectacular by itself.
How about

Chandra, the cheesy name planeswalker. 1RR
+1: draw a card, then discard a card.
-2: deal 2 damage divided among any number of creatures and/or planeswalkers.
-4: Destroy up to 2 Target lands.
Loyalty 3

True. Perhaps -6 would be more ideal, but blowing up 3 lands as stated before

For Chandra to be both good and appealing, she needs to fulfill two very simple purposes:

-Apply immediate pressure. All the previous Chandra versions saw marginal play, yet Koth was played due to actually doing what you want in a red deck - Killing your opponent. Nalaar was way too slow, Ablaze cost too much and Firebrand, while having a cute duplicate ability, was also too slow. Assuming she survives for ~3 turns, you really want a 4CC card to do more than 3 damage.

-Deal damage. This is a signature of Chandra, and the key in any red deck. If Chandra is any good for dealing damage, whether it be to creatures or players, she will have a chance at being played due to either dealing with threats or racing your opponent.

In short, she needs to contribute to winning the game. Getting high-cost removal or slow ticking damage like the previous versions doesn't work, as we've seen already.

Allow me to jump on the bandwagon:

1RR
[+1] ~ deals 2 damage to target player.
[-1] Put a 2/2 red creature token with flying and haste onto the battlefield.
[-4] ~ deals 4 damage to each opponent and each creature that player controls.
(2)

+1 Is sorta like a Vortex - You don't take damage from it, but then again, she can still be killed, and even stopped before getting the ability off.
As a red mage, you don't want the game to drag out too long, which is why the ultimate is actually within reach, in comparison to most others. Might up the cost to 5 if it deems too powerful.
The token is her Phoenix, of course. It could be replaced by a 3/1 elemental, if it's too strong, or could even be a -2.

I think that hey first 2 abilities are too powerful for 3, the older chandras costed more and dealt less Dmg. However I think that nerfing the +1 to just 1dmg and the -1 to a 2/1 haster with no flying would make her fair and powerful enough.

Quote from Jorke

I think that hey first 2 abilities are too powerful for 3, the older chandras costed more and dealt less Dmg. However I think that nerfing the +1 to just 1dmg and the -1 to a 2/1 haster with no flying would make her fair and powerful enough.

The nerf to the - ability seems fair, but the problem lies with nerfing the +. As I stated, she needs to be fairly aggresive if they want her to see any play (If we're talking mono-red, that is). Pinging the opponent for 1 damage every turn isn't going to cut it.

I just want a red Liliana... with a Jokulhaups.

1RR
+1 Chandra deals 2 damage to each player
-2 Chandra deals 3 damage to target creature
-6 Jokulhaups

LoTV is great and all but i think I want uber-Chandra to be 4cmc with the power level to match. 4cmc is the perfect curve point for planewalkers IMO.

Quote from ukyo_rulz

I just want a red Liliana... with a Jokulhaups.

1RR
+1 Chandra deals 2 damage to each player
-2 Chandra deals 3 damage to target creature
-6 Jokulhaups

I would like this with 3 starting loyalty and -2 is "destroy target non-basic land"

Wizards hates land destruction (as do I)

why the hell would they put it on there flagship planewalker for the set?

They will never print stone rain again the wont put it or anything like it on a planewalker. Even if it is limited to non basics.

Thats just not on! and for a core set espcially.

I am 100% certain chandra will not have land destruction as part of her abilities.
It doesn't really fit her anyway, Koth is the land based Red planeswalker.

The elemental tokens thing is interesting... I kind of think it isn't quite chandra's thing.... It would have to be something like put a "2/2 flying haste token into play exile it at end of turn"

Or have the tokens related to instants and sorceries. "put an emblem into play that says "whenever you cast an instant or sorcery put a 1/1 elemental token into play"

I feel like direct damage and Instants and sorcery based abilities are were Chandra is at.

Quote from Narvuntien

Wizards hates land destruction (as do I)

why the hell would they put it on there flagship planewalker for the set?

They will never print stone rain again the wont put it or anything like it on a planewalker. Even if it is limited to non basics.

Thats just not on! and for a core set espcially.

I am 100% certain chandra will not have land destruction as part of her abilities.
It doesn't really fit her anyway, Koth is the land based Red planeswalker.

The elemental tokens thing is interesting... I kind of think it isn't quite chandra's thing.... It would have to be something like put a "2/2 flying haste token into play exile it at end of turn"

Or have the tokens related to instants and sorceries. "put an emblem into play that says "whenever you cast an instant or sorcery put a 1/1 elemental token into play"

I feel like direct damage and Instants and sorcery based abilities are were Chandra is at.

WotC does not hate land destruction (if they did, they'd never print cards that can destroy lands). They just think that :2mana::symr: is to cheap for a LD spell. And as much as I love LD, I agree. It was simply to fast and to efficient to make for a fun game. Thus why they have toned down the amount of LD, and increased the cost a little.

Any chandra with RR in th emana cost will be predominantly red. There are not many predominantly red decks in any format that want to go to the mid game so the total cost of new chandra should be 3. The +1/+2 ability needs to do somthing that predominantly red decks (again, not looking to get into the mid game) want; so it's either burn or card draw. Even looting would be BS unless it was written, +1: discard a card then draw a card.

There are not that many playable variants of a RR requiring planeswalker (let alone so good that they are the face of the block).

Many of the variants people propose are neat but how is 'burn' somhow the lynch pin or even poster child for an entire block?

Quote from Woelrat

Burning stuff is what pyromancers do. And that is probably also the reason WotC has trouble making a good chandra that isn't to strong.

Indeed. Looking at all the previous versions of Chandra, they all had direct damage abilities. Problem is, that if she needs to be competitive, one of her repeatable abilities needs to deal enough damage to actually be threatening, and this would probably put her out of balance because she has other abilities to boot.

I think the suggestion with a symmetric + ability that damages each player for 2 damage seems both competitive and balanced.

Quote from Thunderpig

There are not many predominantly red decks in any format that want to go to the mid game

and that's exactly the Red's problem. Now who wants a limping colour that only plays RDW and then maybe gets splashed onto decks that run on other colour's engine?

I hope for a series of red cards that make it viable for the midgame, I hope Wizards R&D are going to consider it and maybe do something about it in the next 10 years..

Quote from Exodite

It's not just red's problem.

Name a viable mono-colored archetype outside of RDW?

It's been a long time since WW or MBC were a thing.

Look at decks like Bant, Jund and the like... is blue anything but a splash in Bant? Is green anything but a splash in Jund?

Can you even begin to imagine what a mono-blue Standard deck would look like?

One could certainly argue that this is a sad state of affairs overall, though personally I don't have much of an opinion on the matter, but let's not pretend that red is in any way overlooked or special in this regard. Indeed, if it is special it's because it's the only color with a viable mono-color archetype tied to it.

My point is RDW is the only deck using red as the basic colour (and mono colour usually, even more fail). Or in other words if you want a Red-based deck possibly the only competitive option you have is Blitz

All other colours run well with main X and support/splash Y and running variants blitz/midrange/control depending on combination and sets

If you want to take it a step further, this is because Red has few and very straightforward mechanics haste, first strike, damage, flip coin, treason, +X until end of turn and especially not much in the way of hand manipulation imo

I hope Chandra does something better or at least she does the typical +X, deal damage well enough to see some play along with her colour

Her minus ability should be pyroclasm!

That'd make my day. And I would so put her into my Grixis Control.

Exodite, just look at the representation of red on top8 tournaments or any other top level environment.

I won't answer with specific cards cause we can spend weeks getting nowhere. I sincerely believe that counters+card advantage is already much bigger than anyone else has, that's why pro players love blue so much.

Red has got some hasted first striking goblins and some slow dragons getting destroyed for fun by any colour. Just doesnt work in my humble, personal, opinion. If it works for you than please show me the way to a great red deck because I'm desperately trying to make one

Quote from Rockavolver

Exodite, just look at the representation of red on top8 tournaments or any other top level environment.

I won't answer with specific cards cause we can spend weeks getting nowhere. I sincerely believe that counters+card advantage is already much bigger than anyone else has, that's why pro players love blue so much.

Red has got some hasted first striking goblins and some slow dragons getting destroyed for fun by any colour. Just doesnt work in my humble, personal, opinion. If it works for you than please show me the way to a great red deck because I'm desperately trying to make one

Hmm... It should be possible to do a RDW type deck in the current (pre-M14) standard.

Something like:

Lands (18)

18 x Mountain

Creatures (22)

4 x Foundry Street Denizen
4 x Goblin Arsonist
2 x Legion Loyalist
2 x Stormkirk Noble
2 x Vexing Devil
3 x Ashmouth Hound
3 x Bloodcrazed Neonate
2 x Guttersnipe

Spells (20)

2 x Dynacharge
2 x Faithless Loothing
3 x Furor of the Bitten
4 x Pillar of Flame
2 x Street Spasm
2 x Weapon Surge
2 x Curse of the Stalked Prey
2 x Mizzium Mortars
1 x Skullcrack

This is just thrown together over a period of five minutes, but it should be a good starting point. You should of course tinker with it a bit, but mono-red, if it so chooses would be able to work just fine in the current standard.

Thanks Krisnath

the point made a few posts earlier is that red needs something more than the famous old Blitz. They need to do some serious red brainstorming I think, the current mechanics in Red have been limping for a very long time and are largely un-interesting at least to me

Quote from Nikeyeia

Indeed. Looking at all the previous versions of Chandra, they all had direct damage abilities. Problem is, that if she needs to be competitive, one of her repeatable abilities needs to deal enough damage to actually be threatening, and this would probably put her out of balance because she has other abilities to boot.

If they're willing to push the power level I think it is possible to get a playable burn-style planeswalker who is also good enough to be the poster child for the set. The most important thing will be that the they're willing to push the boundaries to make it very good but also test the crap out of it to make sure it's not completely bonkers broken.

Chandra The Incinerator 1RR
+2 - Deal 1 damage to target creature or player. If a creature was dealt damage this way, tap it.
-3 - Flames of the Firebrand.
-8 - Destroy all creatures and artifacts, they can't be regenerated.
Starting Loyalty - 3

Wizards has (and always have) designed the game to reward reactive, thoughtful, patient (read good) game play more than they have aggressive strategies. The reality is that the designers at wizards are gamers and most gamers and lovers of fantasy want, and are used to seeing, the patient, reactive, orderly, intelligent (read good) protagonist beat the aggressive, destructive, chaotic (read evil) antagonist. That 'bad' archetype seems to be most exemplified by red (though they try to fool the community into believing it is black which is a very reactive archetype).

It isn't going to change until the designers of magic change their perception and deeply embedded biases as to what the colors represent.

TL/DR: They need to completely change how they perceive the red archetype or nothing will change.

New Chandra should get Gamble as her minus.

Quote from SicksEyeUrn

TL/DR: They need to completely change how they perceive the red archetype or nothing will change.

totally agree with this.
I cross my fingers that red gets something it never had before as stated above.

i'm not sure red fits into the evil type, it's been funny at times with the crazy goblins and all - if you'd call it something I 'd say its the brute mindless colour.
So its supposed to be 5 colours with a flavor, not good guys and bad guys, but if that was the case, in my book manipulation=evil so we re looking at blue

Quote from Rockavolver

if you'd call it something I 'd say its the brute mindless colour.

Yup thats a much better way of describing it, and that trope usually plays out as the antagonist in most fantasy/gaming designs.

Let's not get our hopes up.