Modern does not allow you to run a 2 land deck or cast gigantic Ad Nauseams on turn 2 so these blazingly fast legacy combos are not going to fly. There aren't many cards you can afford to dump to a mox in modern.
To a lesser extent, you probably also want to free a card in your hand in case you need to trigger Hellbent on Infernal Tutor.
No idea what's going on in Standard or Modern, but here's my speculations (more like what I'd like to see and think is reasonable to have happen) in Legacy and EDH...
Legacy : Unban Black Vise or Mind Twist (possibly both)
EDH : Unban Primeval Titan (I don't know a single person locally who was happy about this card being banned in the first place)
I use the Duels Of The Planeswalkers layout, though I'm right-handed and keep my deck and GY to the left. I dare you to ask me how tempting it is to hold flying creatures in a floating pattern over the table.
I for some reason have confidence SFM could come off. I don't know why, but I do. I'm very tempted to buy into the stuff to make her deck. By chance, could anyone link me to a good stoneforge decklist?
Because legacy is different from modern. In Belcher, you literally have a hand full of non-land cards. You need a way to get mana and Simian Spirit Guide isn't enough. Modern does not allow you to run a 2 land deck or cast gigantic Ad Nauseams on turn 2 so these blazingly fast legacy combos are not going to fly. There aren't many cards you can afford to dump to a mox in modern.
I will recant my statement that exarch/twin won't use it, but they would probably be the only combo deck running it. You have to remember that it is a much bigger control enabler and so other decks will be capable of slowing it down. Also, if exarch/twin is going to run chrome mox for pure speed then they should be dumping their entire counter suite because otherwise they're wasting the speed.
I've tried both TES and ANT on Cockatrice, and because of Chrome Mox, TES is distinctly the faster deck. I've played ANT more, and TES feels like the love child of it and Belcher to me. If Chrome Mox is unbanned in Modern, I believe going the faster route with it and maybe Simian Spirit Guide would be viable (just like the banned Rite of Flame, Chrome Mox enables Turn 1 Pyromancer Ascension, and Turn 2 Ascensions are already powerful enough).
My reasoning for Exarch Twin picking Chrome Mox up is that it's the Modern combo deck that's the most similar to Legacy Show and Tell-based combo. Both run 5-9 of one combo piece and 5-9 of the other (I've seen Sneak Show decks with 9 fatties). Both play counterspells and plenty of cantrips (heck, Force of Will produces more card disadvantage). SnT-based combo is willing to pay card advantage for speed (unfortunately for my point, for SnT-based combo, its preferred mana rock is Lotus Petal).
I can't speculate on legacy as I don't play the format, but as for standard:
I do think Thragtusk deserves a ban, simply because it is so unpleasant to play against. The flavor text seriously says it all. If you don't have two ways to deal with it, an Olivia Voldaren, or a thragtusk of your own, you will probably lose the game. This, obviously is a generality but still. I also second the sentiment that it warps the format and limits deck building, though I'm sure that statements such as this will draw out the 'observe the diversity of Top 8s' crowd.
However, I do not think it will be banned as Ponder/Insectile Aberration/Snapcaster Mage did the same thing in standard and nothing was done. Also, they just printed hate in the form of Skullcrack and they will probably want to see how it works before utilizing what mtg players have so aptly named 'the bandhammer.'
And I will be quite upset if they unban Jace, the Mind Sculptor in modern, if for no other reason than b/c its price is quite insane right now. I don't want to have to spend an extra 400 dollars to play a competitive Ux control deck. That is not even touching on his power-level. I also think it would be foolish to ban fetch-lands w/o first trying something like reprinting Wasteland.
Thragtusk < Delver last year < Caw-Blade. Banning cards in Standard is a huge risk for them to take, and it cost them ten kinds of hell to do it to JtMS and SFM. If a deck isn't as ridiculously oppressive as post-NPH Caw-Blade was, Standard bans are unnecessary. Thragtusk doesn't limit deckbuilding in nearly the same ways that Caw-Blade did--in the sense that you can play decks that are not Thragtusk-centric and still be making an entirely appropriate metagame choice. UWR Midrange, GW and BR aggro, GW and Naya Humans, and Reanimator are all competitive decks that don't require Tusks for success. If you weren't playing Caw-Blade when you could flash in a 4/4 vigilance lifelinker for 3 mana, you were playing an inferior deck.
I for some reason have confidence SFM could come off. I don't know why, but I do. I'm very tempted to buy into the stuff to make her deck. By chance, could anyone link me to a good stoneforge decklist?
Honestly, Stoneforge Mystic would probably be fine without Jace. They really just don't want Caw-Blade to happen again, which is the main reason they initially banned Bitterblossom, Faeries left a sour taste in a lot of people's mouths, much like Caw-Blade (although Caw-Blade and Faeries were both extremely skill intensive and interactive).
However, you would have
Snapcaster Mage
Stoneforge Mystic
Geist of Saint Traft
Vendilion Clique
Restoration Angel
Elspeth, Knight-Errant
Path to Exile
Sleight of Hand/Serum Visions
Spell Snare
Spell Pierce
Mana Leak
Remand
Swords
Batterskull
Cryptic Command
Supreme Verdict
which is strikingly similar to the legacy deck, so I don't foresee it actually happening.
For Legacy a fairly stock stoneblade deck looks like
They would never unban JTMS. That card warped the standard format. It's good enough that its $100 pricetag is warranted from legacy/vintage play alone. That's right, that card is good enough for it to be worth $100 in the most broken format. There's no chance in hell it'll be unbanned ever in Modern.
And as far as the whole "Delver is better than Nacatl" whining, there are a few huge downsides to Delver:
1. It is a 1/1 until it flips, which also means it's a lousy blocker
2. It requires your deck to have 20+ instants/sorceries for it to flip reliably
3. It's a 3/2, not a 3/3; this means it dies to many more things, like Seal of Fire, Grim Lavamancer, and Pyroclasm.
You can't even use the mana you get from MD to Miracle a Retreat, because you get the mana during your main phase. I've been saying Mana Drain is probably safe for over a year now. Not even Vintage lists run it as a 4-of much these days, and it used to be considered a pillar of the format.
EDH/Commander is a social format, right? So why don't people use their social skills to discuss what they like and don't like, instead of adopting a list with 60+ banned cards?
lol....Modern now a days reminds me of Zendikar standard....BAN BBE!!! ITS TEH BROKENS!! guys, BBE is fine, and shaman is fine. Have you ever wondered if it was the Lingering Souls?
Those of you who are calling for Ancestrall visions to be unbanned are crazy.
Storm may not be tier 1 right now, but it's pretty close, and either suspending it on turn 1 or hitting it with an Epic Experiment would just be crazy.
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And even when not dealt with, Resto + Tusk is less effective than 2x Angel of Serenity in creating an everlasting state during the lategame...
While I do agree with you that Restoration Angel should not be banned, your reasoning is a bit flawed, here. Restoration Angel does not hit Angel of Serenity. Also, you've forgotten about 3 and 4-color Reanimator, which love Resto+Tusk, all day.
Other than that, I think you're spot on with the comparison being absurd.
At any rate, I can't speak for Modern, Legacy, or Vintage, as I'm not that well educated on their meta.
Standard, on the other hand, is a different matter. We won't see any bannings, I'm afraid. It seems the top 3 cards I see people complaining about are:
Whatever happened to complaining about Snapcaster? Delver? That's right--the same thing that will happen to these cards: they will either balance out, or cycle out of Standard. The mutability of Standard is what makes it a safe format as far as cards go. I mean, compare the Standard of now to the Standard of the 90s--MtG was in its infancy. That's why we had crazy Standard fiascoes like Necropotence. As the game ages (like a good wine, hopefully), we see less and less of these incidents. I have faith-if somewhat cautionary-that Wizards has not made this same mistake again with Thragtusk, Restoration Angel, or any of these cards that people are complaining about (even though they did kind of apologize for Snapcaster).
Shaman is most likely the best one-drop ever printed. Bloodbraid Elf is almost always a three for one at least that affects the battlefield immediately if you take the tempo advantage into account. Lingering Souls is good, but comes nowhere close to Bloodbraid and Deathrite in powerlevel.
You have to either get a 2 for 1 with the Bloodbraid (unlikely) or cascade into a two-for-one (the only true card advantage engines Jund plays are Maelstrom Pulse and Liliana.)
Oh, I thought he was talking about playing a spell that is countering a spell with counters on it as it comes into play, but I see you guys were just discussing whether he was flashing a creature with flash in order to flash a flashback or just flashing a creature with flash but not needing flash in order to flashback a spell without flash.
We'll have the next Ban List update in less than 2 weeks.
What do you think/hope will happen?
I think:
*Standard: No change
*Modern:
(1) Ban Deathrite Shaman - Bird of Paradise+Lavamancer+Random life gain is just too strong for 1 mana. And it just push the already very powerful Jund to the top, further warping the metagame.
(2) Unban Nacatl - Turn 2 Vanilla 3/3 is really nothing, when compared to Turn 2 flying 3/2 (delver).
*Legacy and vintage - no idea, as I'm not familiar with the metagame enough to say which cards are too broken.
I think it's more logical that they would just unban Punishing Fire, deals with a lot of stuff including Shaman while not completely making control strategies dominate. Plus Deathrite is played in a ton more decks then just Jund.
@ Valyon, you realise how much they have had to power down instants and sorceries to make snapcaster reasonable in standard right? It has significantly warped what cards can and cannot be printed/reprinted.
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@ Valyon, you realise how much they have had to power down instants and sorceries to make snapcaster reasonable in standard right? It has significantly warped what cards can and cannot be printed/reprinted.
Yet we still have Sphinx's Revelation, and spammable, multi-faceted low cost instants and sorceries in the form of Charms.
As I said, they did apologize for Snapcaster, but the game has adapted. My point still stands.
Modern:
Baning Deathrite Shaman in monder won't have that effect. Jund was already far on the top even before DRS ever existed.
What make jund a monster is BBE. And i think that the existance of DRS is what now allows Wizard to ban BBE. Without both BBE and DRS, wizard will simply destroy an archetype, wich is not what Wizard want.
Putting in numbers to ilustrate:
Jund with BBE + DSR = 100
Jund with only BBE = 90
Jund with only DRS = 80
Jund without both = 50
I hope people see the point. Destroying Jund will not make modern better, it just need to be pumped a bit down, and removing BBE will bring it down more than baning DRS, allowing it to keep a competitive level without being too strong.
Standard:
Seirously people, while i hate Thragtusk. Baning it will only push BR and other aggro strategies more to the top.
The meta nowdays are basically "decks that use thragtusk" and "decks to beat decks that uses thragtusk".
Even with him on the format, Thundermaw Hellkites and Fakenrath Aristrocat runs rampant dominating the skys. What would happen if he left, other than these card gaining a wider domain?
I think it's more logical that they would just unban Punishing Fire, deals with a lot of stuff including Shaman while not completely making control strategies dominate. Plus Deathrite is played in a ton more decks then just Jund.
Yeah...
1. "We have a problem with flies"
2. "Toads eat flies, let's bring a lot of toads"
1. "Now we have a problem with toads"
2. "No problem, snakes eats toads, let's bring a lot of snakes!"
1. "Now we have problems with snakes..."
Bringing a problem to solve another will not solve anything. Punishing Fire should stay as it is.
You have to either get a 2 for 1 with the Bloodbraid (unlikely) or cascade into a two-for-one (the only true card advantage engines Jund plays are Maelstrom Pulse and Liliana.)
Unban Nacatl, Bitterblossom, and Stoneforge and let the chips fall where they may in Modern. That format has been a snorefest from the get go because of all the initial and follow up bannings. People like playing powerful cards - let them play powerful cards. Are Blossom and Mystic format warping? Yes, but they warp it in a more feasible direction than the current boredom of Jund v. Jund mirrors and random Delver decks. Blossom and Mystic don't make Jund or Delver any worse or better. We've seen in Legacy that Delver and Mystic don't really go together - you're either playing Delver or you're playing Stoneblade - two different decks. Blossom makes Fae a deck again, but is that really so terrible? I don't see Faeries dominating the format. A tier one deck with some tuning, sure, but not oppressive.
Jace probably needs to stay banned forever, but as for the cards listed, just let 'em play.
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What can you legitimately unban to make Jund worse? It's just a deck full of two-for-ones that also gets access to most of the best hate-cards. Jace won't do it--Jund was better than Jace in Standard, and Jund has picked up a lot more power. (Or Jund just plays Jace, which also happened in Standard with worse mana.) Stoneforge probably doesn't do it either. Ancestral Vision just makes Jund better.
To a lesser extent, you probably also want to free a card in your hand in case you need to trigger Hellbent on Infernal Tutor.
Legacy : Unban Black Vise or Mind Twist (possibly both)
EDH : Unban Primeval Titan (I don't know a single person locally who was happy about this card being banned in the first place)
Monday after I believe.
I've tried both TES and ANT on Cockatrice, and because of Chrome Mox, TES is distinctly the faster deck. I've played ANT more, and TES feels like the love child of it and Belcher to me. If Chrome Mox is unbanned in Modern, I believe going the faster route with it and maybe Simian Spirit Guide would be viable (just like the banned Rite of Flame, Chrome Mox enables Turn 1 Pyromancer Ascension, and Turn 2 Ascensions are already powerful enough).
My reasoning for Exarch Twin picking Chrome Mox up is that it's the Modern combo deck that's the most similar to Legacy Show and Tell-based combo. Both run 5-9 of one combo piece and 5-9 of the other (I've seen Sneak Show decks with 9 fatties). Both play counterspells and plenty of cantrips (heck, Force of Will produces more card disadvantage). SnT-based combo is willing to pay card advantage for speed (unfortunately for my point, for SnT-based combo, its preferred mana rock is Lotus Petal).
Thragtusk < Delver last year < Caw-Blade. Banning cards in Standard is a huge risk for them to take, and it cost them ten kinds of hell to do it to JtMS and SFM. If a deck isn't as ridiculously oppressive as post-NPH Caw-Blade was, Standard bans are unnecessary. Thragtusk doesn't limit deckbuilding in nearly the same ways that Caw-Blade did--in the sense that you can play decks that are not Thragtusk-centric and still be making an entirely appropriate metagame choice. UWR Midrange, GW and BR aggro, GW and Naya Humans, and Reanimator are all competitive decks that don't require Tusks for success. If you weren't playing Caw-Blade when you could flash in a 4/4 vigilance lifelinker for 3 mana, you were playing an inferior deck.
Standard: W/R Aggro
Honestly, Stoneforge Mystic would probably be fine without Jace. They really just don't want Caw-Blade to happen again, which is the main reason they initially banned Bitterblossom, Faeries left a sour taste in a lot of people's mouths, much like Caw-Blade (although Caw-Blade and Faeries were both extremely skill intensive and interactive).
However, you would have
Snapcaster Mage
Stoneforge Mystic
Geist of Saint Traft
Vendilion Clique
Restoration Angel
Elspeth, Knight-Errant
Path to Exile
Sleight of Hand/Serum Visions
Spell Snare
Spell Pierce
Mana Leak
Remand
Swords
Batterskull
Cryptic Command
Supreme Verdict
which is strikingly similar to the legacy deck, so I don't foresee it actually happening.
For Legacy a fairly stock stoneblade deck looks like
4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Vendilion Clique
4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Ponder
1 Counterspell
3 Lingering Souls
1 Intuition
1 Vindicate
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
3 Force of Will
3 Polluted Delta
2 Marsh Flats
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
1 Glacial Fortress
1 Karakas
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp
Bident Layers
B Devotion
RG Devotion
UW Control
Modern:
Jund
UW Control
Combo Pod
Legacy:
DeathBlade
RUG Delver
BUG Control
And as far as the whole "Delver is better than Nacatl" whining, there are a few huge downsides to Delver:
1. It is a 1/1 until it flips, which also means it's a lousy blocker
2. It requires your deck to have 20+ instants/sorceries for it to flip reliably
3. It's a 3/2, not a 3/3; this means it dies to many more things, like Seal of Fire, Grim Lavamancer, and Pyroclasm.
Storm may not be tier 1 right now, but it's pretty close, and either suspending it on turn 1 or hitting it with an Epic Experiment would just be crazy.
[[b]B]DCI Level 2 Judge[/B][/b]standard - Ban Thragtusk over powered card is just overpowered and stupid.
Modern - Ban Deathrite shaman Unbanned Bitterblossom
Legacy - No idea dont really play it sadly
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While I do agree with you that Restoration Angel should not be banned, your reasoning is a bit flawed, here. Restoration Angel does not hit Angel of Serenity. Also, you've forgotten about 3 and 4-color Reanimator, which love Resto+Tusk, all day.
Other than that, I think you're spot on with the comparison being absurd.
At any rate, I can't speak for Modern, Legacy, or Vintage, as I'm not that well educated on their meta.
Standard, on the other hand, is a different matter. We won't see any bannings, I'm afraid. It seems the top 3 cards I see people complaining about are:
1.) Thragtusk
2.) Restoration Angel
3.) Sphinx's Revelation
Whatever happened to complaining about Snapcaster? Delver? That's right--the same thing that will happen to these cards: they will either balance out, or cycle out of Standard. The mutability of Standard is what makes it a safe format as far as cards go. I mean, compare the Standard of now to the Standard of the 90s--MtG was in its infancy. That's why we had crazy Standard fiascoes like Necropotence. As the game ages (like a good wine, hopefully), we see less and less of these incidents. I have faith-if somewhat cautionary-that Wizards has not made this same mistake again with Thragtusk, Restoration Angel, or any of these cards that people are complaining about (even though they did kind of apologize for Snapcaster).
"Each reality is but the dream of another, and each sleeper a god unknowing."
Bloodbraid Elf (1) + Spell cascaded (1) = 3-for-1? MATHEMATICS.
You have to either get a 2 for 1 with the Bloodbraid (unlikely) or cascade into a two-for-one (the only true card advantage engines Jund plays are Maelstrom Pulse and Liliana.)
-regarding Snapcaster Mage.
I think it's more logical that they would just unban Punishing Fire, deals with a lot of stuff including Shaman while not completely making control strategies dominate. Plus Deathrite is played in a ton more decks then just Jund.
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Yet we still have Sphinx's Revelation, and spammable, multi-faceted low cost instants and sorceries in the form of Charms.
As I said, they did apologize for Snapcaster, but the game has adapted. My point still stands.
"Each reality is but the dream of another, and each sleeper a god unknowing."
Baning Deathrite Shaman in monder won't have that effect. Jund was already far on the top even before DRS ever existed.
What make jund a monster is BBE. And i think that the existance of DRS is what now allows Wizard to ban BBE. Without both BBE and DRS, wizard will simply destroy an archetype, wich is not what Wizard want.
Putting in numbers to ilustrate:
Jund with BBE + DSR = 100
Jund with only BBE = 90
Jund with only DRS = 80
Jund without both = 50
I hope people see the point. Destroying Jund will not make modern better, it just need to be pumped a bit down, and removing BBE will bring it down more than baning DRS, allowing it to keep a competitive level without being too strong.
Standard:
Seirously people, while i hate Thragtusk. Baning it will only push BR and other aggro strategies more to the top.
The meta nowdays are basically "decks that use thragtusk" and "decks to beat decks that uses thragtusk".
Even with him on the format, Thundermaw Hellkites and Fakenrath Aristrocat runs rampant dominating the skys. What would happen if he left, other than these card gaining a wider domain?
Yeah...
1. "We have a problem with flies"
2. "Toads eat flies, let's bring a lot of toads"
1. "Now we have a problem with toads"
2. "No problem, snakes eats toads, let's bring a lot of snakes!"
1. "Now we have problems with snakes..."
Bringing a problem to solve another will not solve anything. Punishing Fire should stay as it is.
BBE into Lingering souls... 3 creatures for one.
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Jace probably needs to stay banned forever, but as for the cards listed, just let 'em play.
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As for Modern I don't know as well. It seems like an interesting format. Maybe unban something to fight Jund better.
Standard: W/R Aggro
Modern:
In order of likelyhood, imo -
1. No changes
2. Unban Bitterblossom
3. Unban Stoneforge, possibly ban Batterskull in conjunction
4. Unban Jace
5. Unban Visions, Ban Bloodbraid
Legacy: No changes.