I'm really not sure changing the format from Jund mirrors to Zoo mirrors is ideal. If the point is a diverse metagame, unbanning Nacatl isn't actually solving the problem.
They would never unban JTMS. That card warped the standard format.
Last I checked, Modern isn't Standard. And the other big part of the reason he warped the format (Stoneforge Mystic) is banned.
I just really don't think Jace is overpowered in Standard. A slow-acting card that costs 4 mana doesn't seem like it'll warp a format where decks consistently can win on turn 4 (and sometimes before).
It's good enough that its $100 pricetag is warranted from legacy/vintage play alone. That's right, that card is good enough for it to be worth $100 in the most broken format.
Actually, I've been told by vendors that a big part of his high price tag is because people think there's a chance he'll be unbanned in Modern and want to have copies of him in case of that.
nacatl can come off. it was punishing fire that was the problem. jund was completely fine before RTR came out. BBE included. analysis in the modern forum's ban list discussion show it put up numbers similar to affinity. where it went wrong was after it got shaman and to a lesser extent, decay. getting a mainboardable creature that ramped, gave you reach, kept you alive from thoughtseize and bob damage, and acted as graveyard hate was a little too much for the meta to handle.
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What can you legitimately unban to make Jund worse? It's just a deck full of two-for-ones that also gets access to most of the best hate-cards. Jace won't do it--Jund was better than Jace in Standard, and Jund has picked up a lot more power. (Or Jund just plays Jace, which also happened in Standard with worse mana.) Stoneforge probably doesn't do it either. Ancestral Vision just makes Jund better.
I might be wrong about this, but wouldn't unbanning Chrome Mox make Jund worse by making it far more likely the opponent will resolve a wrath effect on turn 3 & likely stabilize?
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Last I checked, Modern isn't Standard. And the other big part of the reason he warped the format (Stoneforge Mystic) is banned.
I just really don't think Jace is overpowered in Standard. A slow-acting card that costs 4 mana doesn't seem like it'll warp a format where decks consistently can win on turn 4 (and sometimes before).Actually, I've been told by vendors that a big part of his high price tag is because people think there's a chance he'll be unbanned in Modern and want to have copies of him in case of that.
JTMS will not be unbanned.... period. It warped standard and it can/will do the same to Modern. Look at the other cards available in Modern along with what is already banned --- compare them to JTMS. JTMS is that much more potent.
I see a case for Bitterblossom being unbanned. I'm not sure the troll will get unbanned, because I don't think they even want to touch dredge.
I expect that something will be done to Jund. Perhaps it is banning BBE, perhaps it is banning Deathrite Shaman. Perhaps (fingers crossed) they ban fetchlands, and bring back Nacatl. Who knows? I would expect something to happen though.
I might be wrong about this, but wouldn't unbanning Chrome Mox make Jund worse by making it far more likely the opponent will resolve a wrath effect on turn 3 & likely stabilize?
And how did chrome mox cause this to happen when it otherwise would not have?
The point is that Jund is a remarkably resilient deck. Wrathing on turn 3 vs. turn 4 (something you could already do in the format) is probably not going to slow down a deck like Jund.
i see no reason Bitterblossom should be banned anymore in modern. Legacy has changed so much recently i wouldnt be surprised if most the stuff on that list is un-banable. maybe even Mystical tutor
Brian Kibler and Patrick Chapin have been on this for a while, and they also propose to reintroduce JtmS and Bitterblossom, among other cards, back into the meta, and try to kill Jund (and Eggs, what a horrible contraption, weed it out). I think JtmS is one of those cards who does something that Jund cant adopt, and he may introduce a new sort of ''fair deck'' that can beat it.
Adding jace would be like some ecologist introducing a species of animal to get rid of another and then that species ends up being the dominate force and they back to square one.
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@land rid: Jace wouldn't be dominant he would be played, for sure, but he wouldn't be dominant.Jace is the ultimate control card, but control just isn't good in modern. He wouldn't be broken in the UWR midrange deck.
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i see no reason Bitterblossom should be banned anymore in modern. Legacy has changed so much recently i wouldnt be surprised if most the stuff on that list is un-banable. maybe even Mystical tutor
Haha, Mystical Tutor. That's not even remotely good with Miracles!
Maybe the problem is that Jund is not really a 'deck' in that it has no coherent strategy at all. Its just the most efficient means of generating card advantage stacked on a pile that disrupts everything the opponent does. In Modern, you cant play a creature that does nothing if it gets killed instantly, solely because of Jund.
I think that is the point of jund, and what is the main source of the advantage? Bloodbraid Elf
I might be wrong about this, but wouldn't unbanning Chrome Mox make Jund worse by making it far more likely the opponent will resolve a wrath effect on turn 3 & likely stabilize?
T1 Mox, Dark Confidant; T1 Mox, Deathrite, Thougtseize > T2 Bloodbraid Elf + the cascade spell
Yeah, jund will be very sad if they can do that...
Well, on the other, if you just always ban cards from the most dominant deck / archetype and never unban, you end up with a huge pile of banned cards and a really low power level.
Not if these cards were design mistakes, as Jitte, Jace, Bloodbraid and such.
It's not needed to ban cards from the most dominant deck, unless it's the only one ruling over every other deck. And that is the case now.
Banning cards to decrease the power of a deck without destroying the achetype, that is what we need.
Jund now NEEDs to lose power. And in fact, if you check the suggestions, (beside the ones related to Jace and Stoneforge), people want back Nactal, Bitterblossom and Ancestral Visions at the expense of Bloodbraid and Deathrite. Having these cards cards back would give revive at last two archetype, and strengthen some others. Althoug i don't agree with banning both bloodbraid and deathrite, this would be too hard for jund, baning only one will balace the things. My vote goes to bloodbraid. Since deathrite is more playable outside of jund, and isn't as strong as bloodbraid.
Chrome Mox would make RDW much more playable, which could be a limiting force on the super greedy decks, but I am not sure if it is worth the potential risk of enabling other broken things.
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Chrome Mox would make RDW much more playable, which could be a limiting force on the super greedy decks, but I am not sure if it is worth the potential risk of enabling other broken things.
Chrome mox would make most decks more playable. Favoring a lot 1-2 colors decks.
It would make the whole format faster. Modern is supposed to be a T4 format. Mox would turn it a T3 format. it would totally wrap the meta, wich isn't probably a good thing now. Beside the reign of jund, the others T1 decks aren't that far from the t1.5 and T2 decks, so we have a good diversification.
JTMS will not be unbanned.... period. It warped standard and it can/will do the same to Modern. Look at the other cards available in Modern along with what is already banned --- compare them to JTMS.
I did. That's exactly why I think it could be unbanned. Comparing it to cards that are unbanned, he does not seem overpowered.
JTMS is that much more potent.
I can't say it better than someone else did, so I'm just going to quote it:
Now, as for jace being format warping? what does he actually impact himself as a card.
Will Scapeshift not play 7 lands if you resolve a jace?
Will affinity not play Cranial plating because you have a jace?
Will Storm just not cast spells?
Will Red Deck Wins prioritize jace instead of your life total?
Will pod become less efficient at comboing off?
Will Jund cascade into Abrupt decay's only against jace?
Will Martyr Proc stop playing creatures?
Will Splintertwin not end step an exarch?
Will Tron stop playing Turn 3 Karns?
Will Infect not pump their guy?
He has a very low power level compared to what other decks are currently doing in modern.
All that said, I do doubt he'll be unbanned in the next announcement, particularly in the middle of PTQ season. But I do think he (1) can be unbanned, and (2) likely eventually will.
I think the most likely unbannings this time are Ancestral Vision, Wild Nacatl, and Bitterblossom.
Chrome mox would make most decks more playable. Favoring a lot 1-2 colors decks.
It would make the whole format faster. Modern is supposed to be a T4 format. Mox would turn it a T3 format. it would totally wrap the meta, wich isn't probably a good thing now. Beside the reign of jund, the others T1 decks aren't that far from the t1.5 and T2 decks, so we have a good diversification.
but the fast decks probably aren't the ones using it. control decks are too slow because they lack stuff like chrome mox.
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Standard: W/R Aggro
I just really don't think Jace is overpowered in Standard. A slow-acting card that costs 4 mana doesn't seem like it'll warp a format where decks consistently can win on turn 4 (and sometimes before). Actually, I've been told by vendors that a big part of his high price tag is because people think there's a chance he'll be unbanned in Modern and want to have copies of him in case of that.
I might be wrong about this, but wouldn't unbanning Chrome Mox make Jund worse by making it far more likely the opponent will resolve a wrath effect on turn 3 & likely stabilize?
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JTMS will not be unbanned.... period. It warped standard and it can/will do the same to Modern. Look at the other cards available in Modern along with what is already banned --- compare them to JTMS. JTMS is that much more potent.
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i don't think they will unrestrict one of the most unbalanced cards ever; Regrowth is a better candidate in vintage with Mind Twist in legacy and Golgari Grave-Troll, Ancestral Vision and Sword of the Meek in modern
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I see a case for Bitterblossom being unbanned. I'm not sure the troll will get unbanned, because I don't think they even want to touch dredge.
I expect that something will be done to Jund. Perhaps it is banning BBE, perhaps it is banning Deathrite Shaman. Perhaps (fingers crossed) they ban fetchlands, and bring back Nacatl. Who knows? I would expect something to happen though.
Thoughtseize, take your wrath.
Standard: W/R Aggro
And how did chrome mox cause this to happen when it otherwise would not have?
The point is that Jund is a remarkably resilient deck. Wrathing on turn 3 vs. turn 4 (something you could already do in the format) is probably not going to slow down a deck like Jund.
Standard: W/R Aggro
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Adding jace would be like some ecologist introducing a species of animal to get rid of another and then that species ends up being the dominate force and they back to square one.
1 problem doesnt solve another problem.
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@land rid: Jace wouldn't be dominant he would be played, for sure, but he wouldn't be dominant.Jace is the ultimate control card, but control just isn't good in modern. He wouldn't be broken in the UWR midrange deck.
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Mythic rares are fine.
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Standard: W/R Aggro
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T1 Mox, Dark Confidant; T1 Mox, Deathrite, Thougtseize > T2 Bloodbraid Elf + the cascade spell
Yeah, jund will be very sad if they can do that...
Not if these cards were design mistakes, as Jitte, Jace, Bloodbraid and such.
It's not needed to ban cards from the most dominant deck, unless it's the only one ruling over every other deck. And that is the case now.
Banning cards to decrease the power of a deck without destroying the achetype, that is what we need.
Jund now NEEDs to lose power. And in fact, if you check the suggestions, (beside the ones related to Jace and Stoneforge), people want back Nactal, Bitterblossom and Ancestral Visions at the expense of Bloodbraid and Deathrite. Having these cards cards back would give revive at last two archetype, and strengthen some others. Althoug i don't agree with banning both bloodbraid and deathrite, this would be too hard for jund, baning only one will balace the things. My vote goes to bloodbraid. Since deathrite is more playable outside of jund, and isn't as strong as bloodbraid.
Good point, don't need that happening.
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It would make the whole format faster. Modern is supposed to be a T4 format. Mox would turn it a T3 format. it would totally wrap the meta, wich isn't probably a good thing now. Beside the reign of jund, the others T1 decks aren't that far from the t1.5 and T2 decks, so we have a good diversification.
I can't say it better than someone else did, so I'm just going to quote it: All that said, I do doubt he'll be unbanned in the next announcement, particularly in the middle of PTQ season. But I do think he (1) can be unbanned, and (2) likely eventually will.
I think the most likely unbannings this time are Ancestral Vision, Wild Nacatl, and Bitterblossom.
but the fast decks probably aren't the ones using it. control decks are too slow because they lack stuff like chrome mox.