GTC Ban list update

  • #1
    We'll have the next Ban List update in less than 2 weeks.

    What do you think/hope will happen?

    I think:
    *Standard: No change

    *Modern:
    (1) Ban Deathrite Shaman - Bird of Paradise+Lavamancer+Random life gain is just too strong for 1 mana. And it just push the already very powerful Jund to the top, further warping the metagame.
    (2) Unban Nacatl - Turn 2 Vanilla 3/3 is really nothing, when compared to Turn 2 flying 3/2 (delver).

    *Legacy and vintage - no idea, as I'm not familiar with the metagame enough to say which cards are too broken.
    I want another Chinese/Korean/Japanese themed block, but no more under-power, filled-with-useless-mechanic "Return to Kawigama" block!
  • #2
    If you think Wild Nacatl is "nothing" then you really know nothing about Modern or Zoo.
  • #3
    I don't see 1 and 2 happening...and I hope for an unbanning of Bitterblossom....
  • #4
    I don't expect changes in any list. The Modern PTQ Season is started, there is not need to change anything about the format right now.
  • #5
    see here for modern ban discussion ... tons of pages and opinions:

    http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=448937&page=223
    @TheTogaras people should play more games and the world would be a safer place
  • #6
    Quote from Freixa
    I don't expect changes in any list. The Modern PTQ Season is started, there is not need to change anything about the format right now.


    Well, this is not a good reason for "no change". There're way more general MTG players than PTQ grinders. And remind you that Modern is going to be a FNM format very soon.

    If you think Wild Nacatl is "nothing" then you really know nothing about Modern or Zoo.

    Zoo is not competitive right now, lots of new cards have been printed, and the metagame has changed a lot. Again, even on the power level in vacuum, delver is more oppressive than nacatl.
    I want another Chinese/Korean/Japanese themed block, but no more under-power, filled-with-useless-mechanic "Return to Kawigama" block!
  • #7
    My calls:

    Standard:
    Restoration Angel is banned (It extends matches nearly as much as Sensei's Divining Top does in Legacy. Top was axed in Modern on that basis alone, and the absurd amount of life that's derived from repeatedly blinking Thragtusks not only extends matches needlessly, it also has the potential to lead to a stagnant format warped around Thragtusk the way Necropotence warped Type II in 1995. I can see a ban on Restoration Angel to make sure this doesn't get that bad; I just hope that R&D sees that Restoration Angel is the actual problem & not Thragtusk. Unless Sulfuric Vortex is reprinted in Gatecrash, the angel needs to go.)

    Modern:
    Ancestral Vision is unbanned (Another 'safe' experimental card to unban, in much the same way Valakut was safe)
    Deathrite Shaman is added to the watch list

    Extended:
    Who cares? Smile

    Legacy:
    No changes (possible Mana Drain experimental unban similar to Land Tax)

    Vintage:
    No changes

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  • #8
    Quote from Annorax
    My calls:

    Standard:
    Restoration Angel is banned (It extends matches nearly as much as Sensei's Divining Top does in Legacy. Top was axed in Modern on that basis alone, and the absurd amount of life that's derived from repeatedly blinking Thragtusks not only extends matches needlessly, it also has the potential to lead to a stagnant format warped around Thragtusk the way Necropotence warped Type II in 1995. I can see a ban on Restoration Angel to make sure this doesn't get that bad; I just hope that R&D sees that Restoration Angel is the actual problem & not Thragtusk. Unless Sulfuric Vortex is reprinted in Gatecrash, the angel needs to go.)

    Modern:
    Ancestral Vision is unbanned (Another 'safe' experimental card to unban, in much the same way Valakut was safe)
    Deathrite Shaman is added to the watch list

    Extended:
    Who cares? Smile

    Legacy:
    No changes (possible Mana Drain experimental unban similar to Land Tax)

    Vintage:
    No changes


    Jund already made a white splash for Lingering Souls. Unban Ancestral Vision and I bet it will not take too much time until we see a blue splash...

    I hope for the back o Blossom and Mindsculptor
  • #9
    Restoration angel is not going to get banned, neither is thragtusk or any card in the current standard. Unless the card is Jace The Mind Sculptor tier then it's going to stay, because wizards hate banning cards in standard.

    Skullcrack and other GTC cards are the hate for thragtusk.
    #FreeWildNacatl
  • #10
    Quote from 5480
    Well, this is not a good reason for "no change". There're way more general MTG players than PTQ grinders. And remind you that Modern is going to be a FNM format very soon.



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  • #11
    I do think the Deathrite Shaman could get banned. It's powerlevel is absurd, no one can deny that. A 1 drop that fixes, kills and heals. And why is it 1/2? It's absurd all around. None of the abilities have a negative hook. I believe it still would see play even if they reduced all the 2's on the card to 1's. 1 heal, 1 dmg, 1 toughness.
  • #12
    Quote from 5480
    Well, this is not a good reason for "no change". There're way more general MTG players than PTQ grinders. And remind you that Modern is going to be a FNM format very soon.


    Zoo is not competitive right now, lots of new cards have been printed, and the metagame has changed a lot. Again, even on the power level in vacuum, delver is more oppressive than nacatl.


    If you think Delver is anywhere near the power level of Nacatl in Modern, you didn't play Modern before it was banned.
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  • #13
    What I think:
    No changes

    Wizards is not going to ban a card (Deathrite Shaman) so soon from its release. It's making BG very powerful in Modern and Legacy, but not on the level of Memory Jar.

    What I hope:
    Standard, Legacy, Vintage: No changes
    Modern: Fetchlands banned, Wild Nacatl unbanned

    Personal opinion, I hate Jund. It's like when you play a fighting game, there's this one boss that just walks towards you, blocking/dodging/countering anything you try to throw at it. Then it traps you in a corner and beats the tar out of you.

    What enables Jund to play 4 colors? Well, before Deathrite Shaman it was still 3-colored. So I guess DRS is part of the problem. You can ban DRS, or you can ban the thing that makes DRS such an effective mana dork - fetchlands. Without fetches, Jund can't just play 4 Deathrite Shaman and 1 Godless Shrine and be able to hit white reliably. It can play BOP over Shaman, but then it wouldn't fare so well against graveyard decks.

    If fetches are gone, Wild Nacatl can re-enter. Zoo (the traditional Naya-colored deck with 12 one-mana 2/3s and 3/3s, not the 13 fetchland/8 shockland/2 basic/7 dork abomination that is Haunted Zoo) gets a boost and becomes a viable aggro choice alongside Affinity and RDW.

    Combo takes a hit because it's no longer able to thin its deck. It's unnoticeable, but it will fizzle ever so slightly more often.

    Some food for thought: since the unbanning of Valakut, Jund has won 3 GPs and 2nd-placed a GP and a PT. The next best deck based on tournament results is Affinity, which has finished 3rd-4th thrice, and 5th-8th once.
    Last edited by izzetmage: 1/17/2013 5:39:24 AM

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  • #14
    Modern: The only possible ban is Bloodbraid Elf. Deathrite Shaman may get some scrutiny, but not yet.
    Possible unbans: Wild Nacatl, Jace, Visions and Green Sun's Zenith.

    If they ban fetch lands I will probably unsleeve all of my Modern decks and play legacy until they come to their senses.
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  • #15
    They will NOT unban jace, or GSZ.

    Nacatl is very likely to being unbanned though, since we currently have a flying nacatl which is still legal.
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  • #16
    Quote from Annorax
    My calls:
    Legacy:
    No changes (possible Mana Drain experimental unban similar to Land Tax)



    Wut now?! O.o
    *Must be missing some form of sarcasm here*

    Ontopic:
    Tbh i don't think there will be any changes, modern going well, season is just starting, it could get a few cards unbanned(visions maybe), but with the upcoming modern masters set this seems unlikely unless wotc been planning it all along, also they will probaby want to await ptq results first before acting.

    Edit: also to all of you who think delver is on par with nacatl you're wrong, delver requires an entire deck built around it, nacatl requires a singleton plateau.

    Standard: no bans

    Legacy: no ban/unbans
    Last edited by Darksequence: 1/17/2013 7:25:00 AM
    Quote from Yawg
    Very poor choice, a completely unplayable card... even in irrelevant casual formats. Suckage continues...


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  • #17
    Quote from Darksequence

    Edit: also to all of you who think delver is on par with nacatl you're wrong, delver requires an entire deck built around it, nacatl requires a singleton plateau.


    This is modern, so no, he needs most of the time 2 fetches + a shockland.
    So in the worst case scenario you take 4 to have a 3/3 in play on turn 2, and on average you take 3 damage for it.
    Also zoo was dominant for 2 reasons when modern just got released.

    1. Modern still had to form, and alot of the big names chose to play a deck that they were familiar with and was proven to be good in the past
    2. Punishing fire was legal.

    The latter is actually the most important, since it gave zoo reach/inevitability/sustain. Something zoo normally does not have acess too.

    Also saying that delver isnt good because 'it needs an entire deck to be build around it', is the same argument people used when delver just got printed.
    How did that work out for them?
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  • #18
    Standard
    I don't think they will ban Resto Angel, if they're going to ban anything it'll be Thrag. Resto only showed in 1-2 of the top 12 decks recently, whereas Thrag was found as a 4-of in almost every single one, even RG Aggro. However with GCR coming, I don't think they'll ban anything. Especially since when Delver dominated 10 of the Top 12 they didn't touch it.

    Modern
    Maybe an unbanning of something to test the waters, but I can't see them necessarily banning anything, especially so soon after Modern became FNM legal.
    Last edited by Shadowclaimer: 1/17/2013 7:52:43 AM
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  • #19
    Quote from Fluxje
    This is modern, so no, he needs most of the time 2 fetches + a shockland.
    So in the worst case scenario you take 4 to have a 3/3 in play on turn 2, and on average you take 3 damage for it.


    You're calculations are way off, the plateau doesn't have to be untapped, also almost everyone plays fetch/shockduel in modern anyway, how does adding wild nacatl to your deck suddenly make you take more damage then normal on turn2?

    Also saying that delver isnt good because 'it needs an entire deck to be build around it', is the same argument people used when delver just got printed.
    How did that work out for them?


    Ponder was still legal then, without solid topdeck manipulation delver just isn't that great, see current standard.
    Quote from Yawg
    Very poor choice, a completely unplayable card... even in irrelevant casual formats. Suckage continues...


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  • #20
    Quote from Darksequence
    You're calculations are way off, the plateau doesn't have to be untapped, also almost everyone plays fetch/shockduel in modern anyway, how does adding wild nacatl to your deck suddenly make you take more damage then normal on turn2?


    Stop calling it a plateau, its a sacred foundry.
    And no, my calculations are not off, zoo needs to play ALOT of fetches, and grabbing basics can be quite detrimental to your gameplan.
    T1 fetch into shockland, untapped play nacatl, t2 fetch to get the sacred foundry tapped.

    Also you conveniently skipped over my explanation why zoo is no-where near as broken as you pretend it to be.
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  • #21
    Standard: Nothing. The metagame is quite diverse, nothing remotely like Caw-Blade, Affinity or Academy. Not even as bad as when Delver and Jund were dominant.

    Modern: Unban either Golgari Grave-Troll or Ancestral Vision. Why not? Neither card appears to put Jund over the top and both could lead to some new decks. I think if Jund continues to dominate, then Bloodbraid Elf could get axed when Dragon's Maze is released.

    Legacy: Not sure. Yawgmoth's Bargain seems the least broken of the bunch and could be unbanned.

    Vintage: No idea.
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  • #22
    Quote from Fluxje
    Stop calling it a plateau, its a sacred foundry.
    And no, my calculations are not off, zoo needs to play ALOT of fetches, and grabbing basics can be quite detrimental to your gameplan.
    T1 fetch into shockland, untapped play nacatl, t2 fetch to get the sacred foundry tapped.

    Also you conveniently skipped over my explanation why zoo is no-where near as broken as you pretend it to be.


    Firstly: My memory of the shockland names isn't as good as from the abu duals so i tend to use their old names.

    Secondly: I wasn't conveniently skipping that part of your post, but i have no idea why pro's choose to play certain decks and for what reason, I also don't know how deck choice factors into the discussion, in general pro's will play the best deck available. Both fire and nacatl got banned at the same time.

    Thirdly: Jund plays a lot of fetches and 4 colors, still the deck is one of the best atm, modern zoo would concievably play shaman and helix to offset some of the lifeloss anyway. 6-8 Fetches would probably be plenty for a naya variant. Besides its not like you can race the deck with other t1 creatures then nacatl.
    Last edited by Darksequence: 1/17/2013 8:11:11 AM
    Quote from Yawg
    Very poor choice, a completely unplayable card... even in irrelevant casual formats. Suckage continues...


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  • #23
    There is absolutely no reason to ban anything in Standard. This format is more diverse than last year and they didn't ban Delver or Ponder.
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  • #24
    Quote from Darksequence
    Firstly: My memory of the shockland names isn't as good as from the abu duals so i tend to use their old names.

    Secondly: I wasn't conveniently skipping that part of your post, but i have no idea why pro's choose to play certain decks and for what reason, I also don't know how deck choice factors into the discussion, in general pro's will play the best deck available. Both fire and nacatl got banned at the same time.

    Thirdly: Jund plays a lot of fetches and 4 colors, still the deck is one of the best atm, modern zoo would concievably play shaman and helix to offset some of the lifeloss anyway. 6-8 Fetches would probably be plenty for a naya variant. Besides its not like you can race the deck with other t1 creatures then nacatl.


    It is ok, I tend to mix the shocklands names up now and then too.

    The thing about the fetches is that modern zoo decks run steppe linx, and a decent amount of them used to run KotR too.
    Next to that, they want to be able to thin their deck out as much as they can, because the deck only wants to only draw 3 lands in the most perfect scenario.

    In any case, zoo will be able to combat jund relatively well.
    Next to that, UW control decks do not have a bad matchup against zoo either.
    Affinity vs Zoo is an interesting matchup too, and I won't favour either of them.
    Melira pod vs zoo I would see going into favour of pod.
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  • #25
    Quote from SirZapdos
    Legacy: Not sure. Yawgmoth's Bargain seems the least broken of the bunch and could be unbanned.

    Vintage: No idea.


    Just to clarify, Yawgmoth's Bargain is insanely broken and will never get unbanned in Legacy. I can't imagine how warped the metagame would be with that card in Legacy. We would have an influx of storm decks all over the place. Just thinking about it gives me a headache.
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