I would have thought that about lightning bolt, but you're probably right...
I agree its possible. The difference between Lightning Bolt and Counterspell is there's a new eternal format to worry about now. Someday they might feel that Counterspell is necessary for Modern, and may construct Standard in a way that it won't be too powerful there either.
They don't pay too much attention to modern. (splinter twin, cantrips out the yin yang).
If its too powerful in Modern they'll ban it. Most people think Counterspell would be good for modern. I'm sympathetic to that myself.
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I agree its possible. The difference between Lightning Bolt and Counterspell is there's a new eternal format to worry about now. Someday they might feel that Counterspell is necessary for Modern, and may construct Standard in a way that it won't be too powerful there either.
WotC want to reprint Force of Will but they don't want it in Modern for reasons I can't begin to fathom since it's only real use is shutting down combo.
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Mhjames: mtgsalvation: I DON'T SEE HOW THIS CARD IS GOOD. I KNOW PATRICK CHAPIN USED IT AND WENT 8-0, BUT THAT WAS A SMALL TOURNAMENT. THE CARD IS TOO SLOW. YOU NEED TO MAKE SURE THE OPPONENT HAS A SPELL IN THE GRAVEYARD
Removal is tempo gain. So is bounce. Burn is too, either by removal of a creature or lowering your opponents life total. You argued this above in response to epeeguy. So, since these things can be all considered tempo gain, and since they involve removing a creature, temporarily or not, I find it is simpler to call creature bounce temporary removal, which is exactly what it is. Call it soft removal if you will.
We will not see Counterspell in Standard because it adds it to Modern. Unless they want to do that, which is unlikely, it will never see print again.
Well, we won't see Counterspell in Standard because many of the higher ups in set design don't like it, and think it is too powerful and unfair. Modern has little to do with it. As other have said, if they release something in Standard which becomes broken in Modern through some unforeseen combo or synergy, they will just ban it. They can do that with pretty much any set because Modern has such a large card pool available that players in that format would be hard pressed to prove that they can't build a deck they like without said card.
That said, who knows what we will get. I think we will likely get Cryptic back, largely because of Cavern. They can then force Cryptic to rotate at the same time as Cavern if it seems like Standard will go south without it. Though, I could be wrong about that too because I am pretty sure that they don't want to see the following being the only winning decks:
Decks with Cryptic
Decks with Cavern
Decks with Cryptic and Cavern.
The printing of ANY powerful counter would likely cause this sort of format warping, and so the likelihood of getting an amazing counter spell is hurt dramatically by this overwhelmingly likely outcome. I would like someone to try to argue that seeing a really good counter spell in Standard would not produce the above. Let me make it more generic so that it is easier to see. ANY really good counter spell in Standard would produce the following as the only winners of most tournaments until rotation of the cards:
Decks with the really good counter spell
Decks with Cavern of Souls
Decks with both Cavern of Souls and the really good counter spell.
So, we either have a broken format for a year, or cards will get banned, and since Wizards is trying to not design cards they will eventually have to ban. I know they haven't been exactly winning at that lately with Snapcaster and Delver, and they may have to ban those, but they may not depending on what is in M13.
I have to wonder what they COULD print in M13 that would balance Snapcaster and Delver in the other colors. It seems like they could just print Dark Confidant, Tarmogoyf, and Stoneforge, and then invent a red creature to have the two mana slot balanced in all colors, and then come up with some broken ass set of one drops as well, but who thinks that is at all likely? Honestly, I think this is the more interesting question. How can they possibly use M13 to balance out Snapcaster and Delver? What could
we see there? This is what I really want to know.
Well, we won't see Counterspell in Standard because many of the higher ups in set design don't like it, and think it is too powerful and unfair. Modern has little to do with it. As other have said, if they release something in Standard which becomes broken in Modern through some unforeseen combo or synergy, they will just ban it. They can do that with pretty much any set because Modern has such a large card pool available that players in that format would be hard pressed to prove that they can't build a deck they like without said card.
That said, who knows what we will get. I think we will likely get Cryptic back, largely because of Cavern. They can then force Cryptic to rotate at the same time as Cavern if it seems like Standard will go south without it. Though, I could be wrong about that too because I am pretty sure that they don't want to see the following being the only winning decks:
Decks with Cryptic
Decks with Cavern
Decks with Cryptic and Cavern.
The printing of ANY powerful counter would likely cause this sort of format warping, and so the likelihood of getting an amazing counter spell is hurt dramatically by this overwhelmingly likely outcome. I would like someone to try to argue that seeing a really good counter spell in Standard would not produce the above. Let me make it more generic so that it is easier to see. ANY really good counter spell in Standard would produce the following as the only winners of most tournaments until rotation of the cards:
Decks with the really good counter spell
Decks with Cavern of Souls
Decks with both Cavern of Souls and the really good counter spell.
So, we either have a broken format for a year, or cards will get banned, and since Wizards is trying to not design cards they will eventually have to ban. I know they haven't been exactly winning at that lately with Snapcaster and Delver, and they may have to ban those, but they may not depending on what is in M13.
I have to wonder what they COULD print in M13 that would balance Snapcaster and Delver in the other colors. It seems like they could just print Dark Confidant, Tarmogoyf, and Stoneforge, and then invent a red creature to have the two mana slot balanced in all colors, and then come up with some broken ass set of one drops as well, but who thinks that is at all likely? Honestly, I think this is the more interesting question. How can they possibly use M13 to balance out Snapcaster and Delver? What could
we see there? This is what I really want to know.
Dude. SCM and Delver are powerful but the top deck is debatable and two of the top decks don't even use either. Cryptic Command and Counterspell will never exist at the same time, especially when SCM is exists. Cryptic + SCM is better than a Titan. Cavern of Soul's isn't pushing counter spells right out of the format in any format.
If they for some reason decide to say ``Screw you all`` and reprint powerful control magic while SCM exists (This is really unlikely) you can bet that aggro will be getting just as powerful tools (king of like how it already is) so the format would inevitably balance. The scary and format warping problems exist within different concepts. Control magic is put into rotation to not only please players who love it but to help balance things out. When they overdue it with what is the backbone of decks with counters (Planeswalkers, instant speed draw, efficient removal, efficient card advantage engines) is when you start to see a format warp and a pissed off player base or a stagnate meta game. Caw-Blade, for example. Mana Leak and Spell Pierce aren't so powerful they warp formats. But, they're low in cmc and when you combine them with a broken-as-all-hell CA machine like Stoneforge Mystic and Jace the Mind Sculptor+Squadron Hawk's you get a deck that literally blows everything out. Leak and Pierce aren't doing that alone. You understand? I sure hope so.
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Mhjames: mtgsalvation: I DON'T SEE HOW THIS CARD IS GOOD. I KNOW PATRICK CHAPIN USED IT AND WENT 8-0, BUT THAT WAS A SMALL TOURNAMENT. THE CARD IS TOO SLOW. YOU NEED TO MAKE SURE THE OPPONENT HAS A SPELL IN THE GRAVEYARD
Dude. SCM and Delver are powerful but the top deck is debatable and two of the top decks don't even use either. Cryptic Command and Counterspell will never exist at the same time, especially when SCM is exists. Cryptic + SCM is better than a Titan. Cavern of Soul's isn't pushing counter spells right out of the format in any format.
If they for some reason decide to say ``Screw you all`` and reprint powerful control magic while SCM exists (This is really unlikely) you can bet that aggro will be getting just as powerful tools (king of like how it already is) so the format would inevitably balance. The scary and format warping problems exist within different concepts. Control magic is put into rotation to not only please players who love it but to help balance things out. When they overdue it with what is the backbone of decks with counters (Planeswalkers, instant speed draw, efficient removal, efficient card advantage engines) is when you start to see a format warp and a pissed off player base or a stagnate meta game. Caw-Blade, for example. Mana Leak and Spell Pierce aren't so powerful they warp formats. But, they're low in cmc and when you combine them with a broken-as-all-hell CA machine like Stoneforge Mystic and Jace the Mind Sculptor+Squadron Hawk's you get a deck that literally blows everything out. Leak and Pierce aren't doing that alone. You understand? I sure hope so.
Of course Cavern isn't pushing counters out of any format. It wouldn't do that. I was saying that with a powerful counter in a format that has a limited card pool, like Standard, you would see that all top decks fall into one of those three categories, essentially forcing anyone wanting to be competitive to own a playset of either the good counter spell, Cavern of Souls, or both. This was their reasoning for banning Jace TMS and Stoneforge. Too many decks in top 8 listings for tournaments that featured those two cards, and not enough decks without them.
It is debatable whether Snapcaster + Cryptic is better than a titan. To understand why, we need to consider some facts.
First, we need to look at mana cost. You pay two colored mana and 4 colorless mana. Snapcaster+Cryptic requires 4 colored mana and two colorless mana. This is a huge difference in mana cost. It is much more restrictive, especially since so many decks want to use good lands that only produce colorless mana. However, suppose you have no problem with the 4 colored mana + 2 colorless (playing primarily blue). Then we need to think about the actual 6 mana cost. Titans are creatures, so will mostly be only cast during your turn. However, part of the point of using Snapcaster is for the ability to drop it on your opponents turn, and flashback an instant. In these terms, Snapcaster + Cryptic as broken is just silly to assert. You need 6 mana untapped on your opponents turn. You would have to plan ahead for this, and while playing a "titan" on your opponents turn would be cool, it is still leaving 6 mana open going into an opponents turn.
Now, let's look at an opponents ability to stop either. The titan's abilities comes built into them, meaning you cannot counter the ability without something like stifle. Even if you do counter the enter the battlefield trigger, you still have to worry about a 6/6 body, and the titans attack trigger. Mind you, this is all one card, so it can be stopped by a single counter spell. Unfortunately, it is all put into a creature card, so is protected by Cavern. Now, let's look at Snapcaster + Cryptic. First of all, suppose that the only other counter spells they allow in the core set (because they reprinted Cryptic) are Essence Scatter and Negate. Assume your opponents has some number of both of these in their deck. While only one of the two can stop a titan, both can effectively shut down Snapcaster + Cryptic. Add to this how late in the game you are actually able to play this out, and you massive increase the chances that an opponent will have the two mana open and the card in hand to stop it. Now, I suppose you can apply the Cavern protection to Snapcaster, which then means that only Negate would be useful, but Negate would still be useful, whereas against a titan, neither would be. Further, you cannot use cards like Surgical Extraction or Crypt Creeper against a titan ability, whereas you can against Snapcaster + Cryptic. Again, we see that in terms of an opponents ability to stop it, titans are stronger than Snapcaster + Cryptic.
Next, let's look at the cards you need to have in your deck. This is simple. A specific titan will take up four slots at most, but Snapcaster + Cryptic automatically takes up double the slots for the same frequency of occurrence. Titans are again stronger.
Now we can look at the abilities themselves. Getting two abilities that you get to choose out of a set of four is definitely better than one set ability. However, the "abilities" of Snapcaster + Cryptic are far more vulnerable than the abilities of a titan. In addition, a titans abilities recur every time you attack with it, whereas Snapcaster + Cryptic's abilities only happen once. This leaves them about equal. However, if you factor in what you get on the board, a 6/6 with a recurring attack ability and a secondary keyword ability versus a 2/1 vanilla, it is clear that titans are better in this respect as well.
Important to consider here is versatility because this does give Snapcaster + Cryptic some major points. Titans can only be used as titans. Cryptic Command is a good card in its own right, as is Snapcaster Mage, and they do not necessarily HAVE to be used together, but can be as an interesting and powerful option. You also cannot normally cast a titan on an opponents turn, whereas you have that option with Snapcaster + Cryptic. Furthermore, most of the time you will already have used Cryptic once, so it is like getting the titans ability before you have the titan on the board.
In light of all of this, I would assert that there really isn't a comparison. Snapcaster + Cryptic is a synergy that can be good, but I wouldn't say broken in terms of its limitations. Titans are good creatures that can swing the game immediately in your favor when they hit the board, but cost 6 mana, so are limited to how quickly they can hit the board. So, I am not sure what you were arguing. Maybe you were saying that you would rather add some Cryptic Commands to a deck in which you were already running Snapcaster, and would choose this over removing the Snapcasters and replacing them with Frost Titans? Clearly the former is the better choice. It is easy to see how silly the comparison is when you put it into these terms as well. Comparing a synergy between two cards to another single card has its uses, but for the most part is pointless because you would use the synergy in some situations, and the single card in others.
I say I think they will reprint Cryptic for one reason and one reason only. I have done this every core set since M10. I want them to reprint Cryptic. However, I think this time there is actually some logic in it happening. The Commands would make a neat spell cycle for the core set. Cryptic would not be overpowered in Standard right now primarily because its mana cost is so high, and so specific. Cavern of Souls further limits its power. They could print the Commands as Mythic, which would make sense flavor-wise, and would keep them from ruining limited events. However, I am more than willing to admit that I may be unintentionally overlooking important aspects of how the Commands might warp Standard because I like them so much.
I fully understand that Mana Leak and Spell Pierce don't warp formats on their own. However, Snapcaster provides all the help they need to warp Standard right now. Since Snapcaster is going to be in Standard for another year, and WotC tries not to ban cards if they don't have to, Mana Leak should go out right now in favor of something that does not play as nicely with Snapcaster. Anyone denying this is suffering from "I like using overpowered synergies to win games" syndrome. That is further why I am advocating for Cryptic Command because it is more likely to help control decks than the tempo-aggro decks that Mana Leak helps.
I think this has actually helped solidify my position. I think the three counters they should print in the Core set are: Negate, Essence Scatter, and Cryptic Command. Those three should breed a pretty fair Standard format. Illusions tribe may get a little out of control over the summer due to getting Cryptic into their arsenal, but they are illusions so it can't get too bad. At the worst it will be a slower fish deck than Delver. I see U/B control getting stronger, and U/W control actually becoming viable again. Everything else will stay pretty much the same because Cryptic is so damn hard to splash into a deck without Vivids + Reflecting pool, or City of Brass, etc. you get the idea.
What does everyone else think about this idea? Would Standard stay balanced with Cryptic and the other Commands?
That was a really long response. x_x Using a cryptic to counter a spell and bounce a permanent = insane tempo advantage. That's potentially a two turn time walk. When you add snapcaster mage into the mix you're smacking your opponent back again. In a deck that runs SCM you have to assume that it's strategy is completely different than a deck that would pack Titans in it (at least at 4). Cryptic Command is more versatile and has more reach and when you compare the impact on board state with, say, Primeval Titan. Cryptic Command + SCM gives you the ability to as stated above Timewalk your opponent through counter+bounce, Timewalk your opponet through Counter+Tap down/Fog, net you CA via Counter+Draw, and then do it again with Snapcaster Mage. Is this more devastating than a Titan+Nexus+Wolf Run? No, but it's a hell of a way to fight it.
Props to you for making me rethink that. 1 generic and 5 blue isn't easy to splash, but I'd be willing to bet that a really high blue majority deck wouldn't have any trouble doing that on turn 6 given land support.
I would love for the Commands to get reprinted. Profane, Primal and Cryptic are incredible spells in a standard environment and all serve different purposes for different decks and strategies. They will probably reprint them but I don't know if they would be bold enough to do so with SCM around.
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By: ol MISAKA lo
Cockatrice: Infallible
Mhjames: mtgsalvation: I DON'T SEE HOW THIS CARD IS GOOD. I KNOW PATRICK CHAPIN USED IT AND WENT 8-0, BUT THAT WAS A SMALL TOURNAMENT. THE CARD IS TOO SLOW. YOU NEED TO MAKE SURE THE OPPONENT HAS A SPELL IN THE GRAVEYARD
For every card you mentioned, at least others colors can have access to it, or similar
You asked...
Please do tell me something that became better in blue compared to other cards...
...and I believe I listed several cards that satisfied those requirements. And I am still comfortable with that list, seeing as you didn't qualitatively define what would constitute "better."
Either way, there are still really good blue planeswalkers compared to some of those in the other colors.
Control may not need it that much, but Combo need it's draw to be playable, most of the times.
That largely depends on "how fast" you want to assemble a combination to "go off." As WotC has deliberately slowed things down, I think this proves my point. Splinter Twin worked fine with the pieces it had, and didn't require any such engine. This gave opponents plenty of time to work at delay or disrupt the Splinter Twin player's plans.
While i can understand the statement about Esper Control, witch is actually getting more popular with AVR, i can't really agree on the Caw-Blade argument, since it is, in essence, a Delver deck (Tempo).
Your statement was...
The presence of blue in decks base upon cheap / powerful creatures, and almost no control elements around.
...and I don't believe that the most current Caw-Blade decks satisfy the requirement you set for such a deck.
Yes, but actually it's been benefiting only one part. That's why we see less and less Combo and Control decks being played. For intance, where's Frites nowadays?
Who really cares? I mean, the fact that a specific deck is/isn't in Standard is something of a moot point. And it's largely irrelevant in terms of wax and wane in Standard or any other format.
I used to play Mono-White Stax in Legacy several years ago and it was a deck that actually worked well in the format at the time. Now, the deck has only a slight presence in Legacy these days. Is it "bad" that Mono-White Stax isn't in the format like it used to be? Or is it "good" that the format changes so that decks rise and fall over time?
I'm pretty sure this is a good thing, despite what happens with one specific deck or even archetype. Because as surely as one deck "rises" it will "fall" again. And just as control and combo were strong elements in Standard about a year ago, that can easily change again. Yes, my "pet deck" might not be what it was, but that's the cycle of things.
That's fine, we can agree to disagree on that as well. I think it makes some sense, given the nature of changes in the game in the last several years. Some effects that used to be fine at previous costs have indeed become a bit more questionable in light of how WotC designers view Standard and how the format should work.
And again, i fully agree. Mana Leak doesn't necessary needs to return to M13, i already made my point on it. But it is wrong to say that it's "what's wrong with Standard" (if anything, since most won't agree on anything being wrong), and that it's the card that made Delver decks overpowered.
Generally, I support the idea of "contributory negligence", where it isn't necessarily one card on its own that contributes to the problem. While you may need to take out a single piece, no card really exists in a vacuum.
Inarguably, it is easier to take out that single piece of the problem situation, and thus ensure that degenerate situations don't develop or generally piss off the majority of the player base. And I feel that's ultimately the concern with cards like Mana Leak. On its own, it's perfectly innocuous, even if a bit "better" than what a contemporary card might look like. But, in the right environment, it can "contribute" towards a situation that makes a lot of people unhappy.
That's the real point, is that the general health of the format is defined by the perception of the larger portion of the player base. Especially since this is further influenced by new players entering the game.
What does everyone else think about this idea? Would Standard stay balanced with Cryptic and the other Commands?
I think it would be interesting to reprint the command cycle. It was a pretty interesting cycle of cards, and I have always had a particular fondness for modal cards like Charms and what not. And both Austere Command and Cryptic Command would be very interesting tools for control.
That was a really long response. x_x Using a cryptic to counter a spell and bounce a permanent = insane tempo advantage. That's potentially a two turn time walk. When you add snapcaster mage into the mix you're smacking your opponent back again. In a deck that runs SCM you have to assume that it's strategy is completely different than a deck that would pack Titans in it (at least at 4). Cryptic Command is more versatile and has more reach and when you compare the impact on board state with, say, Primeval Titan. Cryptic Command + SCM gives you the ability to as stated above Timewalk your opponent through counter+bounce, Timewalk your opponet through Counter+Tap down/Fog, net you CA via Counter+Draw, and then do it again with Snapcaster Mage. Is this more devastating than a Titan+Nexus+Wolf Run? No, but it's a hell of a way to fight it.
Props to you for making me rethink that. 1 generic and 5 blue isn't easy to splash, but I'd be willing to bet that a really high blue majority deck wouldn't have any trouble doing that on turn 6 given land support.
I would love for the Commands to get reprinted. Profane, Primal and Cryptic are incredible spells in a standard environment and all serve different purposes for different decks and strategies. They will probably reprint them but I don't know if they would be bold enough to do so with SCM around.
Well, they were bold enough to print Snapcaster at all, so we can only hope they are still feeling wild, haha!
I still think Cavern would interfere heavily with Cryptic's ability to be effective all the time. It is certainly an amazing card, but I think Cavern just weakens any counter spell. It really kinda pisses me off that they are willing to print that, something to so blatantly anti-control, but not print any lands that are that blatantly pro-control. I am just kind of in shock that they are becoming so Timmy enabling. It really makes me sad.
I am glad to see that so many of us advocate the reprint of the commands We should start a petition or something
I am glad to see that so many of us advocate the reprint of the commands We should start a petition or something
Since the new Ravnica set is likely already mostly designed, I'd vote for the next block. Also, Ravnica is heavily multi-colored, and that doesn't seem like the right place for the Commands.
If they were to reprint the Commands, I'd want it to be, again, in a heaviliy mono-colored block. The Commands themselves are already so versatile, it'd be a shame to sit back and watch many multi-color decks running multiple Commands just because their fixing can take care of it. Cryptic Command belongs in a blue-based deck. If you allow the fixing for cheap, efficient threats in addition to Cryptic Command, you likely end up with an Agro/Control deck that is better at being Faeries than Faeries was.
Since the new Ravnica set is likely already mostly designed, I'd vote for the next block. Also, Ravnica is heavily multi-colored, and that doesn't seem like the right place for the Commands.
If they were to reprint the Commands, I'd want it to be, again, in a heaviliy mono-colored block. The Commands themselves are already so versatile, it'd be a shame to sit back and watch many multi-color decks running multiple Commands just because their fixing can take care of it. Cryptic Command belongs in a blue-based deck. If you allow the fixing for cheap, efficient threats in addition to Cryptic Command, you likely end up with an Agro/Control deck that is better at being Faeries than Faeries was.
Yeah, no one wants to deal with Delver+Snappy+Cryptic Command+Whatever control cards come from RTR/M13. That would be horrific and almost surely the second coming of faeries. x_x
FYI, though; Lorowyn was a pretty heavy multicolor block. There was five color control around at the time. Cryptic is the only triple of one mana colored one so there's still a good possibility they would reprint the cycle in a multi color block.
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Mhjames: mtgsalvation: I DON'T SEE HOW THIS CARD IS GOOD. I KNOW PATRICK CHAPIN USED IT AND WENT 8-0, BUT THAT WAS A SMALL TOURNAMENT. THE CARD IS TOO SLOW. YOU NEED TO MAKE SURE THE OPPONENT HAS A SPELL IN THE GRAVEYARD
FYI, though; Lorowyn was a pretty heavy multicolor block. There was five color control around at the time. Cryptic is the only triple of one mana colored one so there's still a good possibility they would reprint the cycle in a multi color block.
Lorwyn also had a reasonably good multi-color control deck, compared to Kamigawa block's multi-color control deck.
Lorwyn also had a reasonably good multi-color control deck, compared to Kamigawa block's multi-color control deck.
What was Kamigawa blocks multicolor control deck?
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Mhjames: mtgsalvation: I DON'T SEE HOW THIS CARD IS GOOD. I KNOW PATRICK CHAPIN USED IT AND WENT 8-0, BUT THAT WAS A SMALL TOURNAMENT. THE CARD IS TOO SLOW. YOU NEED TO MAKE SURE THE OPPONENT HAS A SPELL IN THE GRAVEYARD
I'd have to go back and check some of my older files, but I remember Black-Green-Blue, between Dragons, Gifts Ungiven, Cranial Extraction, and Kagemaro. It was a terribly slow and uninteresting format, and it was the best deck.
I hope control NEVER goes back to that. Even if they had to reprint Counterspell and Force of Will to ensure that never happens.
Frank Krasten's Gift deck. You can search his deck list in mtg official website. He played that deck during Worlds 200X (the year when kamigawa is still standard legal) and manage to get 2nd place losing to Katsuhiro Mori playing GWGreaterGood (if I am not mistaken)
I'd have to go back and check some of my older files, but I remember Black-Green-Blue, between Dragons, Gifts Ungiven, Cranial Extraction, and Kagemaro. It was a terribly slow and uninteresting format, and it was the best deck.
I hope control NEVER goes back to that. Even if they had to reprint Counterspell and Force of Will to ensure that never happens.
I think you're merging two decks in the format - the Jushi/Meloku control deck and the three-color Greater Good (not control) deck, which both used Gifts
I think you're merging two decks in the format - the Jushi/Meloku control deck and the three-color Greater Good (not control) deck, which both used Gifts
Perhaps. Or I'm just remembering Kamigawa-block Constructed from PT Philly.
I've tried to put that entire year out of my memory.
I've seen Rune Snag come up a couple times. How would this card not be better then Mana Leak with Snapcaster Mage? My line of thinking is Rune Snag would encourage more early game counters of less optimal targets. Granted you need to draw 6+ cards but having 2 counters each at 6 and 8 additional mana seems a bit powerful. What am I missing that wouldn't make Rune Snag with Snapcaster Mage better then Mana Leak?
You are assuming an awful lot of consistent drawing of Rune Snag, and it does not work out that way. Rune Snag is in Modern, and it is still much less used than Mana Leak in Snapcaster builds.
They don't pay too much attention to modern. (splinter twin, cantrips out the yin yang).
Not true, the sets we are seeing now were not designed with Modern as a serious format, which is why they were more agressive with bannings than they expect to be in the future.
If its too powerful in Modern they'll ban it. Most people think Counterspell would be good for modern. I'm sympathetic to that myself.
No, that is the stated philosophy for eternal formats, but MaRo has stated that design decisions made since PT Philly have taken Modern in to account. The problem is that we have not seen the cards that have been designed under this new paradigm.
Since the new Ravnica set is likely already mostly designed, I'd vote for the next block. Also, Ravnica is heavily multi-colored, and that doesn't seem like the right place for the Commands.
The new Ravnica set is likely in the proof or entering the printing stage, the set they are working on now (Friends) is 15-16 months from release. That must mean that M14 is late in the design and proof stage, but MaRo stated on tumblr about 3 weeks ago that Friends is his current design priority and that it was 16 months away.
As much as the Timmy in me hates counterspells, I think everyone agrees the real problem is delver. Delver makes mana leak far more relevant in the early game than it should be, and also makes unsommon (and therefore snapcaster) way better removal than it should be, making both cards into time walks instead of durdles. Mana leak is fine in a game where all blue can do in the first four turns is durdle. It's not okay when blue can hit for 3 in the air on turn 2. Delver and mana leak can't exist in the same game, and it would seem that wizards has decided Delver is more valuable to their game than mana leak.
I think it would be interesting to reprint the command cycle. It was a pretty interesting cycle of cards, and I have always had a particular fondness for modal cards like Charms and what not. And both Austere Command and Cryptic Command would be very interesting tools for control.
I'd rather we see charms come back than the commands. The green, white, black, and blue commands were all fantastic....the red one....not so much. You can tell wizards agrees as it is the only command from the cycle that hasn't been reprinted in some way (and is the only one worth less than a buck). Make a new set of commands but a better balance this time around would be nice.
As much as the Timmy in me hates counterspells, I think everyone agrees the real problem is delver. Delver makes mana leak far more relevant in the early game than it should be, and also makes unsommon (and therefore snapcaster) way better removal than it should be, making both cards into time walks instead of durdles. Mana leak is fine in a game where all blue can do in the first four turns is durdle. It's not okay when blue can hit for 3 in the air on turn 2. Delver and mana leak can't exist in the same game, and it would seem that wizards has decided Delver is more valuable to their game than mana leak.
Im G/W, so I don't care either way.
With everything becoming more and more creature based though, blue is naturally going to gain more aggro ability. Delver isn't an exception to how blue should be from now on, it's the norm. In a semi related problem that I wouldn't be surprised to see in the future, green has been identified as having the biggest and often best creatures. If everyone is now defined by creatures, greens are going to have to come down in power so that green aggro variants aren't always the dominant deck.
I'd rather we see charms come back than the commands. The green, white, black, and blue commands were all fantastic....the red one....not so much. You can tell wizards agrees as it is the only command from the cycle that hasn't been reprinted in some way (and is the only one worth less than a buck). Make a new set of commands but a better balance this time around would be nice.
I agree, the red command was terrible, and on top of that, they just printed a miracle card that does part of what Incendiary does, but better. In fact, the reason that Incendiary command was so bad is that its targeted burn portion only targets players, its mass burn was a pyroclasm, its land destruction was non-basic, and it didn't even wheel of fortune correctly. On top of all this, it cost five mana when it should have only cost four. There were no two abilities on it worth five mana at the same time. I could see something like this being better
Inflammatory Command 2RR
Choose two- Inflammatory Command deals 3 damage to target creature or player; or Inflammatory command deals 2 damage to each creature; or destroy target non-basic land; or draw two cards and then discard two cards.
Though, even like this, I still don't think it would see a hell of a lot of play, and this version is INFINITELY better than the original.
Since the new Ravnica set is likely already mostly designed, I'd vote for the next block. Also, Ravnica is heavily multi-colored, and that doesn't seem like the right place for the Commands.
If they were to reprint the Commands, I'd want it to be, again, in a heaviliy mono-colored block. The Commands themselves are already so versatile, it'd be a shame to sit back and watch many multi-color decks running multiple Commands just because their fixing can take care of it. Cryptic Command belongs in a blue-based deck. If you allow the fixing for cheap, efficient threats in addition to Cryptic Command, you likely end up with an Agro/Control deck that is better at being Faeries than Faeries was.
A Command reprint would belong in the Core set, not in the new Ravnica block. Why would they put something from Lorwyn block into the new Ravnica block? If they were going to put the Command cycle in a block, they would probably all be modified and put into the return to Lorwyn block, which MaRo has said will happen eventually (return to Lorwyn).
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I would have thought that about lightning bolt, but you're probably right...
I agree its possible. The difference between Lightning Bolt and Counterspell is there's a new eternal format to worry about now. Someday they might feel that Counterspell is necessary for Modern, and may construct Standard in a way that it won't be too powerful there either.
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If its too powerful in Modern they'll ban it. Most people think Counterspell would be good for modern. I'm sympathetic to that myself.
WotC want to reprint Force of Will but they don't want it in Modern for reasons I can't begin to fathom since it's only real use is shutting down combo.
By: ol MISAKA lo
Cockatrice: Infallible
Removal is tempo gain. So is bounce. Burn is too, either by removal of a creature or lowering your opponents life total. You argued this above in response to epeeguy. So, since these things can be all considered tempo gain, and since they involve removing a creature, temporarily or not, I find it is simpler to call creature bounce temporary removal, which is exactly what it is. Call it soft removal if you will.
Well, we won't see Counterspell in Standard because many of the higher ups in set design don't like it, and think it is too powerful and unfair. Modern has little to do with it. As other have said, if they release something in Standard which becomes broken in Modern through some unforeseen combo or synergy, they will just ban it. They can do that with pretty much any set because Modern has such a large card pool available that players in that format would be hard pressed to prove that they can't build a deck they like without said card.
That said, who knows what we will get. I think we will likely get Cryptic back, largely because of Cavern. They can then force Cryptic to rotate at the same time as Cavern if it seems like Standard will go south without it. Though, I could be wrong about that too because I am pretty sure that they don't want to see the following being the only winning decks:
Decks with Cryptic
Decks with Cavern
Decks with Cryptic and Cavern.
The printing of ANY powerful counter would likely cause this sort of format warping, and so the likelihood of getting an amazing counter spell is hurt dramatically by this overwhelmingly likely outcome. I would like someone to try to argue that seeing a really good counter spell in Standard would not produce the above. Let me make it more generic so that it is easier to see. ANY really good counter spell in Standard would produce the following as the only winners of most tournaments until rotation of the cards:
Decks with the really good counter spell
Decks with Cavern of Souls
Decks with both Cavern of Souls and the really good counter spell.
So, we either have a broken format for a year, or cards will get banned, and since Wizards is trying to not design cards they will eventually have to ban. I know they haven't been exactly winning at that lately with Snapcaster and Delver, and they may have to ban those, but they may not depending on what is in M13.
I have to wonder what they COULD print in M13 that would balance Snapcaster and Delver in the other colors. It seems like they could just print Dark Confidant, Tarmogoyf, and Stoneforge, and then invent a red creature to have the two mana slot balanced in all colors, and then come up with some broken ass set of one drops as well, but who thinks that is at all likely? Honestly, I think this is the more interesting question. How can they possibly use M13 to balance out Snapcaster and Delver? What could
we see there? This is what I really want to know.
Dude. SCM and Delver are powerful but the top deck is debatable and two of the top decks don't even use either. Cryptic Command and Counterspell will never exist at the same time, especially when SCM is exists. Cryptic + SCM is better than a Titan. Cavern of Soul's isn't pushing counter spells right out of the format in any format.
If they for some reason decide to say ``Screw you all`` and reprint powerful control magic while SCM exists (This is really unlikely) you can bet that aggro will be getting just as powerful tools (king of like how it already is) so the format would inevitably balance. The scary and format warping problems exist within different concepts. Control magic is put into rotation to not only please players who love it but to help balance things out. When they overdue it with what is the backbone of decks with counters (Planeswalkers, instant speed draw, efficient removal, efficient card advantage engines) is when you start to see a format warp and a pissed off player base or a stagnate meta game. Caw-Blade, for example. Mana Leak and Spell Pierce aren't so powerful they warp formats. But, they're low in cmc and when you combine them with a broken-as-all-hell CA machine like Stoneforge Mystic and Jace the Mind Sculptor+Squadron Hawk's you get a deck that literally blows everything out. Leak and Pierce aren't doing that alone. You understand? I sure hope so.
By: ol MISAKA lo
Cockatrice: Infallible
Of course Cavern isn't pushing counters out of any format. It wouldn't do that. I was saying that with a powerful counter in a format that has a limited card pool, like Standard, you would see that all top decks fall into one of those three categories, essentially forcing anyone wanting to be competitive to own a playset of either the good counter spell, Cavern of Souls, or both. This was their reasoning for banning Jace TMS and Stoneforge. Too many decks in top 8 listings for tournaments that featured those two cards, and not enough decks without them.
It is debatable whether Snapcaster + Cryptic is better than a titan. To understand why, we need to consider some facts.
First, we need to look at mana cost. You pay two colored mana and 4 colorless mana. Snapcaster+Cryptic requires 4 colored mana and two colorless mana. This is a huge difference in mana cost. It is much more restrictive, especially since so many decks want to use good lands that only produce colorless mana. However, suppose you have no problem with the 4 colored mana + 2 colorless (playing primarily blue). Then we need to think about the actual 6 mana cost. Titans are creatures, so will mostly be only cast during your turn. However, part of the point of using Snapcaster is for the ability to drop it on your opponents turn, and flashback an instant. In these terms, Snapcaster + Cryptic as broken is just silly to assert. You need 6 mana untapped on your opponents turn. You would have to plan ahead for this, and while playing a "titan" on your opponents turn would be cool, it is still leaving 6 mana open going into an opponents turn.
Now, let's look at an opponents ability to stop either. The titan's abilities comes built into them, meaning you cannot counter the ability without something like stifle. Even if you do counter the enter the battlefield trigger, you still have to worry about a 6/6 body, and the titans attack trigger. Mind you, this is all one card, so it can be stopped by a single counter spell. Unfortunately, it is all put into a creature card, so is protected by Cavern. Now, let's look at Snapcaster + Cryptic. First of all, suppose that the only other counter spells they allow in the core set (because they reprinted Cryptic) are Essence Scatter and Negate. Assume your opponents has some number of both of these in their deck. While only one of the two can stop a titan, both can effectively shut down Snapcaster + Cryptic. Add to this how late in the game you are actually able to play this out, and you massive increase the chances that an opponent will have the two mana open and the card in hand to stop it. Now, I suppose you can apply the Cavern protection to Snapcaster, which then means that only Negate would be useful, but Negate would still be useful, whereas against a titan, neither would be. Further, you cannot use cards like Surgical Extraction or Crypt Creeper against a titan ability, whereas you can against Snapcaster + Cryptic. Again, we see that in terms of an opponents ability to stop it, titans are stronger than Snapcaster + Cryptic.
Next, let's look at the cards you need to have in your deck. This is simple. A specific titan will take up four slots at most, but Snapcaster + Cryptic automatically takes up double the slots for the same frequency of occurrence. Titans are again stronger.
Now we can look at the abilities themselves. Getting two abilities that you get to choose out of a set of four is definitely better than one set ability. However, the "abilities" of Snapcaster + Cryptic are far more vulnerable than the abilities of a titan. In addition, a titans abilities recur every time you attack with it, whereas Snapcaster + Cryptic's abilities only happen once. This leaves them about equal. However, if you factor in what you get on the board, a 6/6 with a recurring attack ability and a secondary keyword ability versus a 2/1 vanilla, it is clear that titans are better in this respect as well.
Important to consider here is versatility because this does give Snapcaster + Cryptic some major points. Titans can only be used as titans. Cryptic Command is a good card in its own right, as is Snapcaster Mage, and they do not necessarily HAVE to be used together, but can be as an interesting and powerful option. You also cannot normally cast a titan on an opponents turn, whereas you have that option with Snapcaster + Cryptic. Furthermore, most of the time you will already have used Cryptic once, so it is like getting the titans ability before you have the titan on the board.
In light of all of this, I would assert that there really isn't a comparison. Snapcaster + Cryptic is a synergy that can be good, but I wouldn't say broken in terms of its limitations. Titans are good creatures that can swing the game immediately in your favor when they hit the board, but cost 6 mana, so are limited to how quickly they can hit the board. So, I am not sure what you were arguing. Maybe you were saying that you would rather add some Cryptic Commands to a deck in which you were already running Snapcaster, and would choose this over removing the Snapcasters and replacing them with Frost Titans? Clearly the former is the better choice. It is easy to see how silly the comparison is when you put it into these terms as well. Comparing a synergy between two cards to another single card has its uses, but for the most part is pointless because you would use the synergy in some situations, and the single card in others.
I say I think they will reprint Cryptic for one reason and one reason only. I have done this every core set since M10. I want them to reprint Cryptic. However, I think this time there is actually some logic in it happening. The Commands would make a neat spell cycle for the core set. Cryptic would not be overpowered in Standard right now primarily because its mana cost is so high, and so specific. Cavern of Souls further limits its power. They could print the Commands as Mythic, which would make sense flavor-wise, and would keep them from ruining limited events. However, I am more than willing to admit that I may be unintentionally overlooking important aspects of how the Commands might warp Standard because I like them so much.
I fully understand that Mana Leak and Spell Pierce don't warp formats on their own. However, Snapcaster provides all the help they need to warp Standard right now. Since Snapcaster is going to be in Standard for another year, and WotC tries not to ban cards if they don't have to, Mana Leak should go out right now in favor of something that does not play as nicely with Snapcaster. Anyone denying this is suffering from "I like using overpowered synergies to win games" syndrome. That is further why I am advocating for Cryptic Command because it is more likely to help control decks than the tempo-aggro decks that Mana Leak helps.
I think this has actually helped solidify my position. I think the three counters they should print in the Core set are: Negate, Essence Scatter, and Cryptic Command. Those three should breed a pretty fair Standard format. Illusions tribe may get a little out of control over the summer due to getting Cryptic into their arsenal, but they are illusions so it can't get too bad. At the worst it will be a slower fish deck than Delver. I see U/B control getting stronger, and U/W control actually becoming viable again. Everything else will stay pretty much the same because Cryptic is so damn hard to splash into a deck without Vivids + Reflecting pool, or City of Brass, etc. you get the idea.
What does everyone else think about this idea? Would Standard stay balanced with Cryptic and the other Commands?
Props to you for making me rethink that. 1 generic and 5 blue isn't easy to splash, but I'd be willing to bet that a really high blue majority deck wouldn't have any trouble doing that on turn 6 given land support.
I would love for the Commands to get reprinted. Profane, Primal and Cryptic are incredible spells in a standard environment and all serve different purposes for different decks and strategies. They will probably reprint them but I don't know if they would be bold enough to do so with SCM around.
By: ol MISAKA lo
Cockatrice: Infallible
Then we will have to agree to disagree on those.
You asked...
Please do tell me something that became better in blue compared to other cards...
...and I believe I listed several cards that satisfied those requirements. And I am still comfortable with that list, seeing as you didn't qualitatively define what would constitute "better."
Either way, there are still really good blue planeswalkers compared to some of those in the other colors.
That largely depends on "how fast" you want to assemble a combination to "go off." As WotC has deliberately slowed things down, I think this proves my point. Splinter Twin worked fine with the pieces it had, and didn't require any such engine. This gave opponents plenty of time to work at delay or disrupt the Splinter Twin player's plans.
Your statement was...
The presence of blue in decks base upon cheap / powerful creatures, and almost no control elements around.
...and I don't believe that the most current Caw-Blade decks satisfy the requirement you set for such a deck.
Who really cares? I mean, the fact that a specific deck is/isn't in Standard is something of a moot point. And it's largely irrelevant in terms of wax and wane in Standard or any other format.
I used to play Mono-White Stax in Legacy several years ago and it was a deck that actually worked well in the format at the time. Now, the deck has only a slight presence in Legacy these days. Is it "bad" that Mono-White Stax isn't in the format like it used to be? Or is it "good" that the format changes so that decks rise and fall over time?
I'm pretty sure this is a good thing, despite what happens with one specific deck or even archetype. Because as surely as one deck "rises" it will "fall" again. And just as control and combo were strong elements in Standard about a year ago, that can easily change again. Yes, my "pet deck" might not be what it was, but that's the cycle of things.
That's fine, we can agree to disagree on that as well. I think it makes some sense, given the nature of changes in the game in the last several years. Some effects that used to be fine at previous costs have indeed become a bit more questionable in light of how WotC designers view Standard and how the format should work.
Generally, I support the idea of "contributory negligence", where it isn't necessarily one card on its own that contributes to the problem. While you may need to take out a single piece, no card really exists in a vacuum.
Inarguably, it is easier to take out that single piece of the problem situation, and thus ensure that degenerate situations don't develop or generally piss off the majority of the player base. And I feel that's ultimately the concern with cards like Mana Leak. On its own, it's perfectly innocuous, even if a bit "better" than what a contemporary card might look like. But, in the right environment, it can "contribute" towards a situation that makes a lot of people unhappy.
That's the real point, is that the general health of the format is defined by the perception of the larger portion of the player base. Especially since this is further influenced by new players entering the game.
I think it would be interesting to reprint the command cycle. It was a pretty interesting cycle of cards, and I have always had a particular fondness for modal cards like Charms and what not. And both Austere Command and Cryptic Command would be very interesting tools for control.
Well, they were bold enough to print Snapcaster at all, so we can only hope they are still feeling wild, haha!
I still think Cavern would interfere heavily with Cryptic's ability to be effective all the time. It is certainly an amazing card, but I think Cavern just weakens any counter spell. It really kinda pisses me off that they are willing to print that, something to so blatantly anti-control, but not print any lands that are that blatantly pro-control. I am just kind of in shock that they are becoming so Timmy enabling. It really makes me sad.
I am glad to see that so many of us advocate the reprint of the commands We should start a petition or something
Since the new Ravnica set is likely already mostly designed, I'd vote for the next block. Also, Ravnica is heavily multi-colored, and that doesn't seem like the right place for the Commands.
If they were to reprint the Commands, I'd want it to be, again, in a heaviliy mono-colored block. The Commands themselves are already so versatile, it'd be a shame to sit back and watch many multi-color decks running multiple Commands just because their fixing can take care of it. Cryptic Command belongs in a blue-based deck. If you allow the fixing for cheap, efficient threats in addition to Cryptic Command, you likely end up with an Agro/Control deck that is better at being Faeries than Faeries was.
Yeah, no one wants to deal with Delver+Snappy+Cryptic Command+Whatever control cards come from RTR/M13. That would be horrific and almost surely the second coming of faeries. x_x
FYI, though; Lorowyn was a pretty heavy multicolor block. There was five color control around at the time. Cryptic is the only triple of one mana colored one so there's still a good possibility they would reprint the cycle in a multi color block.
By: ol MISAKA lo
Cockatrice: Infallible
Lorwyn also had a reasonably good multi-color control deck, compared to Kamigawa block's multi-color control deck.
What was Kamigawa blocks multicolor control deck?
By: ol MISAKA lo
Cockatrice: Infallible
I'd have to go back and check some of my older files, but I remember Black-Green-Blue, between Dragons, Gifts Ungiven, Cranial Extraction, and Kagemaro. It was a terribly slow and uninteresting format, and it was the best deck.
I hope control NEVER goes back to that. Even if they had to reprint Counterspell and Force of Will to ensure that never happens.
Frank Krasten's Gift deck. You can search his deck list in mtg official website. He played that deck during Worlds 200X (the year when kamigawa is still standard legal) and manage to get 2nd place losing to Katsuhiro Mori playing GWGreaterGood (if I am not mistaken)
I think you're merging two decks in the format - the Jushi/Meloku control deck and the three-color Greater Good (not control) deck, which both used Gifts
Perhaps. Or I'm just remembering Kamigawa-block Constructed from PT Philly.
I've tried to put that entire year out of my memory.
Not true, the sets we are seeing now were not designed with Modern as a serious format, which is why they were more agressive with bannings than they expect to be in the future.
No, that is the stated philosophy for eternal formats, but MaRo has stated that design decisions made since PT Philly have taken Modern in to account. The problem is that we have not seen the cards that have been designed under this new paradigm.
The new Ravnica set is likely in the proof or entering the printing stage, the set they are working on now (Friends) is 15-16 months from release. That must mean that M14 is late in the design and proof stage, but MaRo stated on tumblr about 3 weeks ago that Friends is his current design priority and that it was 16 months away.
Reprint Opt for Modern!!
FREE DIG THOROUGH TIME!
PLAY MORE ROUGE DECKS!
Im G/W, so I don't care either way.
I'd rather we see charms come back than the commands. The green, white, black, and blue commands were all fantastic....the red one....not so much. You can tell wizards agrees as it is the only command from the cycle that hasn't been reprinted in some way (and is the only one worth less than a buck). Make a new set of commands but a better balance this time around would be nice.
With everything becoming more and more creature based though, blue is naturally going to gain more aggro ability. Delver isn't an exception to how blue should be from now on, it's the norm. In a semi related problem that I wouldn't be surprised to see in the future, green has been identified as having the biggest and often best creatures. If everyone is now defined by creatures, greens are going to have to come down in power so that green aggro variants aren't always the dominant deck.
I agree, the red command was terrible, and on top of that, they just printed a miracle card that does part of what Incendiary does, but better. In fact, the reason that Incendiary command was so bad is that its targeted burn portion only targets players, its mass burn was a pyroclasm, its land destruction was non-basic, and it didn't even wheel of fortune correctly. On top of all this, it cost five mana when it should have only cost four. There were no two abilities on it worth five mana at the same time. I could see something like this being better
Inflammatory Command 2RR
Choose two- Inflammatory Command deals 3 damage to target creature or player; or Inflammatory command deals 2 damage to each creature; or destroy target non-basic land; or draw two cards and then discard two cards.
Though, even like this, I still don't think it would see a hell of a lot of play, and this version is INFINITELY better than the original.
A Command reprint would belong in the Core set, not in the new Ravnica block. Why would they put something from Lorwyn block into the new Ravnica block? If they were going to put the Command cycle in a block, they would probably all be modified and put into the return to Lorwyn block, which MaRo has said will happen eventually (return to Lorwyn).