With essense scatter and negate spoiled, i think all hope is gone. goodbye mana leak.
Yeah, several people here including myself thought that was coming. So that means Cancel is probably out or pushed to uncommon to match up with Murder.
Yeah, several people here including myself thought that was coming. So that means Cancel is probably out or pushed to uncommon to match up with Murder.
Yeah, several people here including myself thought that was coming. So that means Cancel is probably out or pushed to uncommon to match up with Murder.
See, this is what I don't get. You guys are saying Mana Leak is balanced. Yet you're also saying it's the one and only thing that's keeping this format from crumbling entirely. It's balanced, yet it's singlehandedly defining and holding together the entire format?
Force of will keeps legacy from being combo central, but is a completely fair card
Force of Will is one of the most unfair counterspells ever printed.
HOWEVER, it's completely necessary to Legacy, because if it didn't exist it would just be vintage without the cool busted black cards.
How is force of will unfair? It costs 2 cards and a life to cast for free, that's card disadvantage, and if your hard casting, it cost 5.
You realize against fair decks, its side boarded out most of the time because of that above statement? If it is so unfair, you would never do that, on the line that it is unfair.
What makes it unfair? that it countered your unfair combo deck, or that it cost 2 cards to deal with a 3/3 or 3/4 or 4 mana planeswalker?
How is force of will unfair? It costs 2 cards and a life to cast for free, that's card disadvantage, and if your hard casting, it cost 5.
You realize against fair decks, its side boarded out most of the time because of that above statement? If it is so unfair, you would never do that, on the line that it is unfair.
What makes it unfair? that it countered your unfair combo deck, or that it cost 2 cards to deal with a 3/3 or 3/4 or 4 mana planeswalker?
I actually don't like playing combo decks. I think it's unfair because it's the most powerful version of a type of card that's inherently unfair.
Hoping to see Remand and Hinder. Together they would provide solid counter magic without easy hard counter access for blue splash nor giving blue the steaming pile that is cancel.
Hoping to see Remand and Hinder. Together they would provide solid counter magic without easy hard counter access for blue splash nor giving blue the steaming pile that is cancel.
Don't really see Hinder making it with Dissipate around.
I actually don't like playing combo decks. I think it's unfair because it's the most powerful version of a type of card that's inherently unfair.
How are counterspells unfair? FoW isn't even the best counterspell. Both Mana Drain and Mental Misstep are on par with Force of Will. FoW is the best answer to unfair strategies but it is relatively weak against fair decks. It doesn't really do anything unfair.
How are counterspells unfair? FoW isn't even the best counterspell. Both Mana Drain and Mental Misstep are on par with Force of Will. FoW is the best answer to unfair strategies but it is relatively weak against fair decks. It doesn't really do anything unfair.
FoW is actually actively bad in a lot of match ups. It is one of the most fair cards ever printed. It allows a deck play creatures, but not just die to a combo deck. Most of the time it gets sided out nowadays in Legacy. Probably in at least 50% of the matches.
Blue used to be incredibly multifaceted. In fact, far too much so, blue had the biggest slice of the color pie by far. It's a good thing that got readjusted, but for some reason they decided to take out just about everything except card draw and counterspells, the two most synergistic and powerful aspects of the color.
The real problem is that blue was designed to be the color that had very little effect on the board, with the only good creatures being on the higher end of the mana curve, and only temporary ways of dealing with permanents once they hit the board. It was supposed to make up for this weakness by being the best color at manipulating the stack, with powerful instants and sorceries, and the ability to stop spells before they hit the board if they timed it right. Early in Magic's design, this would have made sense, but ever since then it's only become more and more obvious that instants and sorceries are actually much stronger than most permanents, which is the opposite of what Richard Garfield had expected.
Now, with the game shifting to focus much more on creatures and creature combat, blue's identity as the non-creature color doesn't really work, and they still seem to be trying to figure out what to do with blue. Counterspells themselves aren't inherently broken, but there is a very very fine line between extremely powerful and useless. There is almost no middleground. The best solution, in my opinion, would be to give other colors access to counterspells, just keep the best ones in blue.
I definitely agree with what you're saying. I actually use to like blue.....in 1995. At that point, it was just as you said. Blue still had it's cool draw and powerful Counterspells but it could do other lil things that while not overpowered, kept blue from just being "Mana Leak". Not to mention that they actually still printed blue hate back then. Sure blue had Counterspell and Powersink and Control Magic and all that. But there was also Red Elemental Blast and Tsunami. Now THAT'S some hate right there. It just felt like even though blue could still basically do the same stuff it could do now, there was more balance.
That's another thing that pisses me off about blue these days. It seems to be nearly exempt from hate. The worst it's got is friggin Autumn's Veil. If you're gonna give blue Mana Leak, at least give us Red Elemental Blast back.
I think as you said, Blue almost seems to be designed to be too narrow. It doesn't often have cool creatures, pretty much never has any cool enchantments, all of it's "Steal" effects have to generally be so expensive or nerfed that they're basically useless. Yet wizards still has to design all these nearly unplayable creatures, enchantments and other crap for it. No other colour has that problem. I mean, I'm not saying that every creature in every other colour is awesome, every colour has it's share of filler. But it just seems that blue gets the most filler by a longshot.
Another thing with blue I've noticed, and this is going back to the very beginning. Is that in any "cycle" of cards, blue almost always either gets the one that's insane and bordering on overpowered or it gets a total piece of crap. And that seems to really define the very nature of blue. It's just hard to design around. The cards either have to be total crap or way too good. If all the colour can do is draw cards and counter spells, you can't really win. If you don't give it good enough counterspells, then the whole colour is useless. If you give it good counterspells, then it takes over the whole format.
And really, it doesn't even fit into the colour pie that well. Like all it can do is counterspells and draw cards. It's not as if that's really necessary for the game to function. Without blue there'd still be creatures and permanents and dozens of ways to get rid of those creatures and permanents. Control would still exist, you'd just have to let the threats hit the board for a second before you get rid of them.
And to clarify, I'm not saying we should "Ban the island" although I personally wouldn't mind in the least. But I am saying that ever since the start it's always seemed that blue has been a problem in one way or another.
On a side note, it looks like from checking out the M13 spoiler they did go with the idea of cutting Mana Leak for more narrow counters like Essence Scatter and Negate. Awesome, problem solved.
Before I say this I dont remember where I read this but...
Arent wizards trying to make blue more focused on 'bounce' effects rather than 'counter' effects, we currently have 3 1cmc creature bounce spells, its like they are trying to cram it in our faces, personally, I'd be glad if instead of Mana leak we got Boomerang or Into the Roil'esk card (as its keywording doesn't fit with M13)
No, there has been no stated or implied goal to do this with blue.
I feel wizards is trying to make the game more focused in attacking and defending, rather than playing counter-magic, control, combos and so on.
Magic is a business, like or not. It is owned by hasbro. They problably think that a game like that will atract a larger audience. A lot of people don't like counters. Mana Leak is out.
I also feel they don't know how to design blue, as someone already said. Blue wields a lot of power because of its nature. Something very simple such as countering a spell or drawing cards can give you a huge advantage. I think they don't know how to find that point where a counterspell isn't broken, but at the same it isn't weak. The same is true for the whole color.
You can still have blue be a defensive, controlling color. Reintroduce stuff like Propaganda, keep hard counters at 3 mana plus, keep card drawing sorcery speed, vanilla cap cantrip effects like Preordain/Ponder, make effects like creature posession always on a creature like sower of tempatation so theyre removable, and keep planeswalkers like baby Jace/Tamiyo, that have blue powers but are well costed. I feel like they are sometimes being lazy and would rather make blue a rotten cheese sandwhich instead of actually putting thought into the color and mainitaining its identity while be able to be a compettitive color.
You can still have blue be a defensive, controlling color. Reintroduce stuff like Propaganda, keep hard counters at 3 mana plus, keep card drawing sorcery speed, vanilla cap cantrip effects like Preordain/Ponder, make effects like creature posession always on a creature like sower of tempatation so theyre removable, and keep planeswalkers like baby Jace/Tamiyo, that have blue powers but are well costed. I feel like they are sometimes being lazy and would rather make blue a rotten cheese sandwhich instead of actually putting thought into the color and mainitaining its identity while be able to be a compettitive color.
what you listed, except propaganda, is pretty much non competitive, so clearly you are making a smelly sandwich too. any time you are taking a defensive position you are pretty much acting reactivly, and reactive actions are inherently weaker. if you are designing a color to be reactive it HAS to be more efficient than other more pro-active colors for it to have a chance at salvaging a win from a game that is made up of you reacting to your opponent.
I actually don't like playing combo decks. I think it's unfair because it's the most powerful version of a type of card that's inherently unfair.
How are counters inherently unfair?
By the logic that you seem to be using, unsummon/bounce effects are also inherently unfair, since bouncing a creature during an attack phase essentially means that your opponent wasted two whole turns.
There is nothing "inherently" unfair with counters. Not a good idea to confuse personal frustration over counters with objective definitions of fair and unfair.
And force of will isn't even the most powerful version. Mental misstep is.
In the next core set, Blue will have it's Mana Leak again, and
1. Green will have no ramp
2. Black will have no removal
3. Red will have no burn
4. While will have no board stabilizer
You played JESUS?!?! I heard none of his guys stay in the graveyard, and once you think you have him beat he ALWAYS comes back to win within three turns. I like...WORSHIP him.
No DR. Worm, I was attempting to make blue "fair" I suppose, not ideal as a reactive color. I truly and utterly despise the, "I hate blue because it stops what I do" jank statement or the classic,"counterspells arent fun". Fun is relative.
How do these people play video games? If an oppnent "stops" you, do you rage quit because you cant do whatever you wanted? Thats childish, and why bother entertaining such nonsense?
I also am tired of the relentless chorus singing," kill blue" refrain endlessly. But Ill always play blue. No matter how bad it gets lol.
In the next core set, Blue will have it's Mana Leak again, and
1. Green will have no ramp
2. Black will have no removal
3. Red will have no burn
4. While will have no board stabilizer
That's what WotC want.
Could have sworn I saw three counterspells included in M13...
By the logic that you seem to be using, unsummon/bounce effects are also inherently unfair, since bouncing a creature during an attack phase essentially means that your opponent wasted two whole turns.
There is nothing "inherently" unfair with counters.
Sun titan alll the titans and every creature that relies more on ETB effects .
Counter doesnt care what the card does. In a sense counterspell can deal with everything (apart from cant be countered spell) while take something like doomblade can only deal with a creature. Or shatter or neutalize.
COunter cards are inherently unbalanced because they can with a huge array of cards while most other removal has certain requirements
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Sun titan alll the titans and every creature that relies more on ETB effects .
Counter doesnt care what the card does. In a sense counterspell can deal with everything (apart from cant be countered spell) while take something like doomblade can only deal with a creature. Or shatter or neutalize.
COunter cards are inherently unbalanced because they can with a huge array of cards while most other removal has certain requirements
This difference, as stated several times before, is that while counterspells can answer a very wide range of threats, they're "balanced" because despite not having a targeting restraint, counterspells have a very important timing restraint. Counterspell can't do anything to a well timed Grave Titan, where Murder deals just fine. Why is one more fair than the other?
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Yeah, several people here including myself thought that was coming. So that means Cancel is probably out or pushed to uncommon to match up with Murder.
What?
http://magiccards.info/query?q=c%21u+t%3A%22instant%22+e%3Am10%2Fen&v=card&s=cname
m10 had all 3 at common.
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Uh, Murder is a common, bro.
Force of will keeps legacy from being combo central, but is a completely fair card
MOD::symw::symu::symb: Gifts
LEG::symg::symb: Infect
Force of Will is one of the most unfair counterspells ever printed.
HOWEVER, it's completely necessary to Legacy, because if it didn't exist it would just be vintage without the cool busted black cards.
How is force of will unfair? It costs 2 cards and a life to cast for free, that's card disadvantage, and if your hard casting, it cost 5.
You realize against fair decks, its side boarded out most of the time because of that above statement? If it is so unfair, you would never do that, on the line that it is unfair.
What makes it unfair? that it countered your unfair combo deck, or that it cost 2 cards to deal with a 3/3 or 3/4 or 4 mana planeswalker?
MOD::symw::symu::symb: Gifts
LEG::symg::symb: Infect
I actually don't like playing combo decks. I think it's unfair because it's the most powerful version of a type of card that's inherently unfair.
Don't really see Hinder making it with Dissipate around.
How are counterspells unfair? FoW isn't even the best counterspell. Both Mana Drain and Mental Misstep are on par with Force of Will. FoW is the best answer to unfair strategies but it is relatively weak against fair decks. It doesn't really do anything unfair.
FoW is actually actively bad in a lot of match ups. It is one of the most fair cards ever printed. It allows a deck play creatures, but not just die to a combo deck. Most of the time it gets sided out nowadays in Legacy. Probably in at least 50% of the matches.
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I definitely agree with what you're saying. I actually use to like blue.....in 1995. At that point, it was just as you said. Blue still had it's cool draw and powerful Counterspells but it could do other lil things that while not overpowered, kept blue from just being "Mana Leak". Not to mention that they actually still printed blue hate back then. Sure blue had Counterspell and Powersink and Control Magic and all that. But there was also Red Elemental Blast and Tsunami. Now THAT'S some hate right there. It just felt like even though blue could still basically do the same stuff it could do now, there was more balance.
That's another thing that pisses me off about blue these days. It seems to be nearly exempt from hate. The worst it's got is friggin Autumn's Veil. If you're gonna give blue Mana Leak, at least give us Red Elemental Blast back.
I think as you said, Blue almost seems to be designed to be too narrow. It doesn't often have cool creatures, pretty much never has any cool enchantments, all of it's "Steal" effects have to generally be so expensive or nerfed that they're basically useless. Yet wizards still has to design all these nearly unplayable creatures, enchantments and other crap for it. No other colour has that problem. I mean, I'm not saying that every creature in every other colour is awesome, every colour has it's share of filler. But it just seems that blue gets the most filler by a longshot.
Another thing with blue I've noticed, and this is going back to the very beginning. Is that in any "cycle" of cards, blue almost always either gets the one that's insane and bordering on overpowered or it gets a total piece of crap. And that seems to really define the very nature of blue. It's just hard to design around. The cards either have to be total crap or way too good. If all the colour can do is draw cards and counter spells, you can't really win. If you don't give it good enough counterspells, then the whole colour is useless. If you give it good counterspells, then it takes over the whole format.
And really, it doesn't even fit into the colour pie that well. Like all it can do is counterspells and draw cards. It's not as if that's really necessary for the game to function. Without blue there'd still be creatures and permanents and dozens of ways to get rid of those creatures and permanents. Control would still exist, you'd just have to let the threats hit the board for a second before you get rid of them.
And to clarify, I'm not saying we should "Ban the island" although I personally wouldn't mind in the least. But I am saying that ever since the start it's always seemed that blue has been a problem in one way or another.
On a side note, it looks like from checking out the M13 spoiler they did go with the idea of cutting Mana Leak for more narrow counters like Essence Scatter and Negate. Awesome, problem solved.
Oops. Reading is tech! >.<
You're right. I forgot about m10.
Reprint Opt for Modern!!
FREE DIG THOROUGH TIME!
PLAY MORE ROUGE DECKS!
Magic is a business, like or not. It is owned by hasbro. They problably think that a game like that will atract a larger audience. A lot of people don't like counters. Mana Leak is out.
I also feel they don't know how to design blue, as someone already said. Blue wields a lot of power because of its nature. Something very simple such as countering a spell or drawing cards can give you a huge advantage. I think they don't know how to find that point where a counterspell isn't broken, but at the same it isn't weak. The same is true for the whole color.
Reprint Opt for Modern!!
FREE DIG THOROUGH TIME!
PLAY MORE ROUGE DECKS!
How are counters inherently unfair?
By the logic that you seem to be using, unsummon/bounce effects are also inherently unfair, since bouncing a creature during an attack phase essentially means that your opponent wasted two whole turns.
There is nothing "inherently" unfair with counters. Not a good idea to confuse personal frustration over counters with objective definitions of fair and unfair.
And force of will isn't even the most powerful version. Mental misstep is.
1. Green will have no ramp
2. Black will have no removal
3. Red will have no burn
4. While will have no board stabilizer
That's what WotC want.
My 180 Modern Bordered Only Cube
How do these people play video games? If an oppnent "stops" you, do you rage quit because you cant do whatever you wanted? Thats childish, and why bother entertaining such nonsense?
I also am tired of the relentless chorus singing," kill blue" refrain endlessly. But Ill always play blue. No matter how bad it gets lol.
Could have sworn I saw three counterspells included in M13...
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Sun titan alll the titans and every creature that relies more on ETB effects .
Counter doesnt care what the card does. In a sense counterspell can deal with everything (apart from cant be countered spell) while take something like doomblade can only deal with a creature. Or shatter or neutalize.
COunter cards are inherently unbalanced because they can with a huge array of cards while most other removal has certain requirements
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WBSorin vs TibaltBR, WRHeros vs Monsters RG
Want to see other duel decks I made ? Check out my Blog ! Feel free to post advice or give topics for me to make duel decks out of. Check out the Theros Block Planeswalker Theme Duel Decks Elspeth, Xenagos, Ashok, Kiora, Ajani
This difference, as stated several times before, is that while counterspells can answer a very wide range of threats, they're "balanced" because despite not having a targeting restraint, counterspells have a very important timing restraint. Counterspell can't do anything to a well timed Grave Titan, where Murder deals just fine. Why is one more fair than the other?
You did
Rewind, Essense Scater and what ever the one is that counters a none creature spell
Cyriss07