Exactly my thoughts. Remand is very powerful, and I believe WotC said "too" powerful, but it's a kind of counterspell that doesn't upset n00bs quite as much. A n00b will gladly tap out for the same card next turn and not realize that he/she is losing mad tempo. It's a good skill-tester in my humble opinion. Remand could probably be printed at 2U and still see some play... it's like a Repulse for spells.
Memory Lapse is significantly weaker but feels more like a hard counterspell to a n00b. However this card could be extra interesting in that it doesn't put spells in the graveyard (something your opponent might not mind given ISD block) and doesn't counter Miracle spells very well.
Force Spike is an annoying counterspell that is also hilarious, like Frightful Delusion. It's the kind of counterspell you get mad at yourself for not playing around, although I get a kick out of when it devastates myself/opponent.
The direction Counterspell has been heading is away from hard counters and countering creatures imo. Turn Aside, Outwit, Negate, the loss of Essence Scatter and Remove Soul... so I propose a nice, very restricted counterspell: Disrupt. Of course, you'd also need to have Cancel to go with it, but hey, Mana Leak has graced us for long enough anyway.
@ Joku - Agree! Blue just happens to have the best CREATURES now. :/ IT NEVER ENDS!
I have to ask, if you hate counters so much why not just play Yugioh?
Control (and counter-magic in general) is a necessary evil to keep the format healthy. Without counters you will see plenty of non-interactive combo deck show up that just crap all over Standard.
You aggro players will play your little dudes, beat face while they just cast stuff to dig, setup, or search. Then just when you think you've won they combo out and win.
At least with control you're fighting something to win. Combo decks basically goldfish all day and dump out victories over aggro.
Yugioh has Solemn Judgment and Solemn Warning which are both staples in just about any deck. Don't even get me started on Royal Oppression. Strong counterspells exist in yugioh too!
Exactly my thoughts. Remand is very powerful, and I believe WotC said "too" powerful, but it's a kind of counterspell that doesn't upset n00bs quite as much. A n00b will gladly tap out for the same card next turn and not realize that he/she is losing mad tempo. It's a good skill-tester in my humble opinion. Remand could probably be printed at 2U and still see some play... it's like a Repulse for spells.
Reprinting Remand would be a bigger mistake than reprinting Mana Leak. Remand is much better than Mana Leak in the Delver decks.
Yeah Remand is stupid good. I think they should just reprint Essence Scatter, Negate, and some new 3cc counterspell. Maybe 1UU: Choose one - counter target spell or bounce a permanent. Mini Cryptic.
Reprinting Remand would be a bigger mistake than reprinting Mana Leak. Remand is much better than Mana Leak in the Delver decks.
I agree with you. It would have to be bumped to 2U. It would be better than Cancel and worse than Mana Leak at that cost which is exactly what WotC wants. WotC also wants people to not get depressed when their spells get countered and Remand isn't a "counter" so much as a "bounce" spell.
I have to ask, if you hate counters so much why not just play Yugioh?
Control (and counter-magic in general) is a necessary evil to keep the format healthy. Without counters you will see plenty of non-interactive combo deck show up that just crap all over Standard.
You aggro players will play your little dudes, beat face while they just cast stuff to dig, setup, or search. Then just when you think you've won they combo out and win.
At least with control you're fighting something to win. Combo decks basically goldfish all day and dump out victories over aggro.
You ever notice control players always go to that? "Why don't you play yugioh then?!?!"
I'm not saying we shouldn't have ANY counterspells, but that yes Mana Leak is too much for standard. You guys still have your Dissipates and Cancels, you're fine. Those are both a lot more balanced, harder to splash and harder to abuse with Snapcaster. AND, they stop these crazy combos you guys are fabricating in your head. So again, it doesn't just turn into "swing my guys sideways". You guys understand removal exists, yes?
Just as the article said itself, I've seen players win entire games on nothing but Mana Leaks and Snapcasters. I'd say about 90% of the time I see someone play Snapcaster it's on Mana Leak. It wasn't like that guy was making this stuff up.
It's just that for some reason control players have it in their head that blue is "the smart colour" and that everything else is stupid. Blue isn't anymore "smart" than black is "evil" or red is "on fire". It's just a flavour thing.
I mean, does it really take anymore thought to Mana Leak something than it does to play any other removal?
I've always felt that strict control was actually much easier to play than aggro. Of course there's exceptions, and I certainly understand that some control decks do indeed require more thought than some aggro decks, but that more traditional control where it's just tons or removal, counterspells and a few wincons is one of the easy decks to play IMO. Back in the day of U/W control during the Shards/Zendikar block and somewhat into Zen/Scars where it basically was just removal, counters and Baneslayer, Colonnade, Jace and Sphinx as the win, that was the deck I'd play when I didn't want to think.
Control players for some reason always assume that aggro players are playing against a goldfish. They can't seem to comprehend the idea that "Oh, hey the other guy has removal and blockers." It's not just turning your guys sideways, you have to consider combat math, you have to know which creatures to send in and which to hold back. With more traditional control it always just felt like all you had to do was remove and counter threads, board wipe when it got heavy and just drop a wincon when the time is right. No worries on combat math or "do they have removal?". You had counters for the removal and since you were playing control, they didn't have any threats you had to worry about.
I think another problem is that a lot of you guys in this thread seem to assume that control literally means "having mana leak in standard". And that removing it would somehow cause total chaos in the format as if there was no such thing as Dismember, Day Of Judgment, Black Sun's Zenith, Slagstorm, Victim Of Night, Doom Blade, Oblivion Ring, Pillar Of Flame, Whipflare, Go For The Throat, Barter In Blood, and Brimstone Volley. And that's just to name a few. If Mana Leak is so balanced, how do you explain your theory that it would make or break an entire format?
And just to clarify the Yugioh analogy. Yugioh DOES have counterspell-esque cards. And sure enough, they're run in just about every deck and restricted because of how powerful they are. So do take that into consideration the next time you go for the "JUST PLAY YUGIOH!" bs.
Thing is, as far as I've heard they don't like combo either, so if that's true then Standard will be aggro only, which seems very sad to me, only aggro decks will not create a fun format, and not a healthy one either.
Many people including me will grow tired of an only aggro format very quickly.
Nail on the head. Combo was squashed (in standard) a while ago, now it's control's turn. Heck, even Caw-Blade wasn't a true control deck... the only control decks in standard have been because of Chapin: Five Color Control (Lorwyn era), UW Treasure Hunt Control (after WWK release) and Grixis (current). It took the combination of Wrath of God, Path to Exile, Cryptic Command, Cruel Ultimatum and Volcanic Fallout and then Jace, the Mind Sculptor (!) to make control viable....
@ Jolly - I'm not sure who said blue is a "smarter" color but I agree that's false. What we're talking about here is a balance of the traditional deck styles. Two out of the three are being eliminated.
Some people don't like the president so does that mean you go out and get a new one to "play it safe" and get rid of the presidency altogether? That's what is happening with combo. Some people don't like combo (forget those that do) so it's safer not to print combo cards. Same with land destruction. It all comes down to percentages in WotC's "research" on what players like. Who knows whether or not those numbers really truly reflect the community's feelings??
I disagree that an all aggro format is inevitable. They just printed Terminus, Bonfire of the Damned, and Devastation Tide to help deal with aggro decks. Red always gets some sort of cheap sweeper effect.
Control will still be viable like it always is, most likely in UWx colors.
The UW Delver deck is better than UW Control in almost every way. I see no advantages to playing Control over Delver. The traditional UW Delver deck loses almost nothing from rotation, given that we get a decent new dual land in M13/RTR. Ponder, Gitaxian Probe and Vapor Snag are nice but replacements will work alright. Mana Leaks have been cut time after time throughout the deck's evolution. There will still be Delver of Secrets, Snapcaster Mage, Invisible Stalker, Runechanter's Pike, Geist of Saint Traft, Restoration Angel and there will always be cheap instants and sorceries for flashback fun. Surprise! Blue and white's efficient creatures with some card selection and food for the overpowered Mr. Chan.
hmmm how can you make a counterspell that is good in Control but not in Delver? :/
Nail on the head. Combo was squashed (in standard) a while ago, now it's control's turn. Heck, even Caw-Blade wasn't a true control deck... the only control decks in standard have been because of Chapin: Five Color Control (Lorwyn era), UW Treasure Hunt Control (after WWK release) and Grixis (current). It took the combination of Wrath of God, Path to Exile, Cryptic Command, Cruel Ultimatum and Volcanic Fallout and then Jace, the Mind Sculptor (!) to make control viable....
@ Jolly - I'm not sure who said blue is a "smarter" color but I agree that's false. What we're talking about here is a balance of the traditional deck styles. Two out of the three are being eliminated.
Some people don't like the president so does that mean you go out and get a new one to "play it safe" and get rid of the presidency altogether? That's what is happening with combo. Some people don't like combo (forget those that do) so it's safer not to print combo cards. Same with land destruction. It all comes down to percentages in WotC's "research" on what players like. Who knows whether or not those numbers really truly reflect the community's feelings??
Again though, how is control being eliminated? It's not like they said, "We will no longer be printing any sort of removal at all". They just said Mana Leak might be too much for the format, which it is. Not Dissipate or Cancel or Negate or Remove Soul or Psychic Barrier, just Mana Leak.
This format has TONS of removal. I didn't even think to mention Terminus, Bonfire Of The Damned, Devastation Tide and all the removal sure to come in M13 and RTR.
Control is just fine and probably has more options than it has in a long time. They're just "hopefully" getting rid of ONE unbalanced and overpowered card in the format. And I think that's grrrrrreat.
I guess a lot of blue players are really emotional about it and having a hard time dealing with it. Which is great, call it vindictive but I think it's refreshing to see the tables turned for a bit.
I mean, look at it this way guys. Think of all the fun you'll have exploring the other 4 colours in the game!
But they won't be exploring other colors. They'll still be playing Delver or Solar Flare. There's nothing wrong with blue being a viable color in the game. Ideally, all five colors are viable in standard, right? Losing Mana Leak doesn't make U a bad choice.. like I said Mana Leaks have been cut from Delver.
The trouble is that blue's creatures (and almost every color's creatures) are too good so there's no reason to play control. The other problem is that there isn't any combo so there's not a huge need for counterspells. I like combo... and I never thought I'd say this but I'm starting to miss control too. Counterspells are a necessary part of the game if the game is to be more than overpowered creatures.
edit - I like "brawling" sometimes but removal/counters/answers are absolutely necessary to avoid Limited environment like SOM where it was board stall after board stall until someone hit a big ol' fatty.
I believe in (and hope for) a Counterspell reprint. Modern needs Counterspell. Being less splashable makes Counterspell in the same power level of Remand and Mana Leak, IMO... It is also very iconic (probably the most iconic Blue spell) and would fit into the "20th birthday" theme...
I believe in (and hope for) a Counterspell reprint. Modern needs Counterspell. Being less splashable makes Counterspell in the same power level of Remand and Mana Leak, IMO... It is also very iconic (probably the most iconic Blue spell) and would fit into the "20th birthday" theme...
They just said they think Mana Leak is too good, and Remand is at an insane power level. Why would you use these as a comparison for what's good for Standard?
So someone says they've been cut from time to time, and you decide to quote one decklist to prove them wrong?
I quoted that one decklist, but if you look at the other four or five UW Delver decks that were in the top 16 in that tournament, they were all basically identical and had 4 mana leaks.
In fact I've never seen a Delver deck that top 8'd and didn't play mana leaks. Finkel played 2, and that was the least I've ever seen.
They just said they think Mana Leak is too good, and Remand is at an insane power level. Why would you use these as a comparison for what's good for Standard?
For no specific reason (and I never read anything about Remand being "too good"). But I really believe that Modern miss Counterspell. The card has much to offer to the format.
For no specific reason (and I never read anything about Remand being "too good"). But I really believe that Modern miss Counterspell. The card has much to offer to the format.
I don't really think Modern wants a third two mana catch-all counterspell. Mono-Blue Delver would become too good.
Or are you just saying play different colors as all the removal is black, red, or a little bit white?
Remember bounce is not removal. And stuff like Psychic Barrier will be rotating at the same time as Mana Leak. Counters are the evil that is needed to keep the format healthy. And even with them there is always uncounterable stuff like Thrun and now Cavern of Souls which will be in Standard at least 16-18 more months.
If there is no viable counter printed in M13 or first Rav set the next 6-8 months will be 95% aggro. Which is boring as hell.
See, this is what I don't get. You guys are saying Mana Leak is balanced. Yet you're also saying it's the one and only thing that's keeping this format from crumbling entirely. It's balanced, yet it's singlehandedly defining and holding together the entire format?
Blue has Dismember, that's a start. And since when do people play mono-blue anyway? That's another thing about blue that always bugged me. It seems blue IS Mana Leak. You ever notice that? Like no other colour is so focused around 1 card or 1 type of card. Sure black has discard, red has burn, white can kill enchantments and artifacts. But they all have other things they're known for too. Cool creatures, removal, mana ramp, etc....
It just feels like in any given set, blue has like mostly filler and then like some cool draw spell, maybe some new counterspell and occasionally that overpowered card that ends up warping the format. No other colour is like that. Every other colour is so much more multifunctional than blue yet blue is still the most popular colour. All because it can "Counterspell". So what does that really say about the ability to counter spells? Apparently it's such a strong ability that it can basically carry the whole colour.
And Mana Leak is a perfect example of that. For awhile a lot of decks in standard seemed to be splashing blue just for Mana Leak/Snapcaster.
And again, I'm definitely not saying there should be no counterspells what so ever. But Mana Leak is too cheap and too easily splashable. So is Miscalculation. Cancel and Dissipate may not be great, but I wouldn't say they're unplayable. I personally think 1UU is a far more fair cost for something as powerful as "Counter Target Spell". At very least counterspells should be made more narrow. I think it'd be fine if instead of giving you guys Mana Leak they gave like Negate and Remove Soul. Or hell, even just mana leak with a UU cost.
See, this is what I don't get. You guys are saying Mana Leak is balanced. Yet you're also saying it's the one and only thing that's keeping this format from crumbling entirely. It's balanced, yet it's singlehandedly defining and holding together the entire format?
Blue has Dismember, that's a start. And since when do people play mono-blue anyway? That's another thing about blue that always bugged me. It seems blue IS Mana Leak. You ever notice that? Like no other colour is so focused around 1 card or 1 type of card. Sure black has discard, red has burn, white can kill enchantments and artifacts. But they all have other things they're known for too. Cool creatures, removal, mana ramp, etc....
It just feels like in any given set, blue has like mostly filler and then like some cool draw spell, maybe some new counterspell and occasionally that overpowered card that ends up warping the format. No other colour is like that. Every other colour is so much more multifunctional than blue yet blue is still the most popular colour. All because it can "Counterspell". So what does that really say about the ability to counter spells? Apparently it's such a strong ability that it can basically carry the whole colour.
And Mana Leak is a perfect example of that. For awhile a lot of decks in standard seemed to be splashing blue just for Mana Leak/Snapcaster.
And again, I'm definitely not saying there should be no counterspells what so ever. But Mana Leak is too cheap and too easily splashable. So is Miscalculation. Cancel and Dissipate may not be great, but I wouldn't say they're unplayable. I personally think 1UU is a far more fair cost for something as powerful as "Counter Target Spell". At very least counterspells should be made more narrow. I think it'd be fine if instead of giving you guys Mana Leak they gave like Negate and Remove Soul. Or hell, even just mana leak with a UU cost.
UU
Counter target spell unless it's controller pays 3
Sure. I'll play 8 Mana Leaks in Delver for the next few months.
See, this is what I don't get. You guys are saying Mana Leak is balanced. Yet you're also saying it's the one and only thing that's keeping this format from crumbling entirely. It's balanced, yet it's singlehandedly defining and holding together the entire format?
Blue has Dismember, that's a start. And since when do people play mono-blue anyway? That's another thing about blue that always bugged me. It seems blue IS Mana Leak. You ever notice that? Like no other colour is so focused around 1 card or 1 type of card. Sure black has discard, red has burn, white can kill enchantments and artifacts. But they all have other things they're known for too. Cool creatures, removal, mana ramp, etc....
It just feels like in any given set, blue has like mostly filler and then like some cool draw spell, maybe some new counterspell and occasionally that overpowered card that ends up warping the format. No other colour is like that. Every other colour is so much more multifunctional than blue yet blue is still the most popular colour. All because it can "Counterspell". So what does that really say about the ability to counter spells? Apparently it's such a strong ability that it can basically carry the whole colour.
And Mana Leak is a perfect example of that. For awhile a lot of decks in standard seemed to be splashing blue just for Mana Leak/Snapcaster.
And again, I'm definitely not saying there should be no counterspells what so ever. But Mana Leak is too cheap and too easily splashable. So is Miscalculation. Cancel and Dissipate may not be great, but I wouldn't say they're unplayable. I personally think 1UU is a far more fair cost for something as powerful as "Counter Target Spell". At very least counterspells should be made more narrow. I think it'd be fine if instead of giving you guys Mana Leak they gave like Negate and Remove Soul. Or hell, even just mana leak with a UU cost.
Blue used to be incredibly multifaceted. In fact, far too much so, blue had the biggest slice of the color pie by far. It's a good thing that got readjusted, but for some reason they decided to take out just about everything except card draw and counterspells, the two most synergistic and powerful aspects of the color.
The real problem is that blue was designed to be the color that had very little effect on the board, with the only good creatures being on the higher end of the mana curve, and only temporary ways of dealing with permanents once they hit the board. It was supposed to make up for this weakness by being the best color at manipulating the stack, with powerful instants and sorceries, and the ability to stop spells before they hit the board if they timed it right. Early in Magic's design, this would have made sense, but ever since then it's only become more and more obvious that instants and sorceries are actually much stronger than most permanents, which is the opposite of what Richard Garfield had expected.
Now, with the game shifting to focus much more on creatures and creature combat, blue's identity as the non-creature color doesn't really work, and they still seem to be trying to figure out what to do with blue. Counterspells themselves aren't inherently broken, but there is a very very fine line between extremely powerful and useless. There is almost no middleground. The best solution, in my opinion, would be to give other colors access to counterspells, just keep the best ones in blue.
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"I am confident that if anyone actually
penetrates our facades, even the most
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unprepared for the truth of House Dimir."
Now, with the game shifting to focus much more on creatures and creature combat, blue's identity as the non-creature color doesn't really work, and they still seem to be trying to figure out what to do with blue. Counterspells themselves aren't inherently broken, but there is a very very fine line between extremely powerful and useless. There is almost no middleground. The best solution, in my opinion, would be to give other colors access to counterspells, just keep the best ones in blue.
Haven't they already done some of this, such as Mana Tithe, Dash Hopes and red blasts?
Exactly my thoughts. Remand is very powerful, and I believe WotC said "too" powerful, but it's a kind of counterspell that doesn't upset n00bs quite as much. A n00b will gladly tap out for the same card next turn and not realize that he/she is losing mad tempo. It's a good skill-tester in my humble opinion. Remand could probably be printed at 2U and still see some play... it's like a Repulse for spells.
Memory Lapse is significantly weaker but feels more like a hard counterspell to a n00b. However this card could be extra interesting in that it doesn't put spells in the graveyard (something your opponent might not mind given ISD block) and doesn't counter Miracle spells very well.
Force Spike is an annoying counterspell that is also hilarious, like Frightful Delusion. It's the kind of counterspell you get mad at yourself for not playing around, although I get a kick out of when it devastates myself/opponent.
The direction Counterspell has been heading is away from hard counters and countering creatures imo. Turn Aside, Outwit, Negate, the loss of Essence Scatter and Remove Soul... so I propose a nice, very restricted counterspell: Disrupt. Of course, you'd also need to have Cancel to go with it, but hey, Mana Leak has graced us for long enough anyway.
@ Joku - Agree! Blue just happens to have the best CREATURES now. :/ IT NEVER ENDS!
Yugioh has Solemn Judgment and Solemn Warning which are both staples in just about any deck. Don't even get me started on Royal Oppression. Strong counterspells exist in yugioh too!
Reprinting Remand would be a bigger mistake than reprinting Mana Leak. Remand is much better than Mana Leak in the Delver decks.
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I agree with you. It would have to be bumped to 2U. It would be better than Cancel and worse than Mana Leak at that cost which is exactly what WotC wants. WotC also wants people to not get depressed when their spells get countered and Remand isn't a "counter" so much as a "bounce" spell.
You ever notice control players always go to that? "Why don't you play yugioh then?!?!"
I'm not saying we shouldn't have ANY counterspells, but that yes Mana Leak is too much for standard. You guys still have your Dissipates and Cancels, you're fine. Those are both a lot more balanced, harder to splash and harder to abuse with Snapcaster. AND, they stop these crazy combos you guys are fabricating in your head. So again, it doesn't just turn into "swing my guys sideways". You guys understand removal exists, yes?
Just as the article said itself, I've seen players win entire games on nothing but Mana Leaks and Snapcasters. I'd say about 90% of the time I see someone play Snapcaster it's on Mana Leak. It wasn't like that guy was making this stuff up.
It's just that for some reason control players have it in their head that blue is "the smart colour" and that everything else is stupid. Blue isn't anymore "smart" than black is "evil" or red is "on fire". It's just a flavour thing.
I mean, does it really take anymore thought to Mana Leak something than it does to play any other removal?
I've always felt that strict control was actually much easier to play than aggro. Of course there's exceptions, and I certainly understand that some control decks do indeed require more thought than some aggro decks, but that more traditional control where it's just tons or removal, counterspells and a few wincons is one of the easy decks to play IMO. Back in the day of U/W control during the Shards/Zendikar block and somewhat into Zen/Scars where it basically was just removal, counters and Baneslayer, Colonnade, Jace and Sphinx as the win, that was the deck I'd play when I didn't want to think.
Control players for some reason always assume that aggro players are playing against a goldfish. They can't seem to comprehend the idea that "Oh, hey the other guy has removal and blockers." It's not just turning your guys sideways, you have to consider combat math, you have to know which creatures to send in and which to hold back. With more traditional control it always just felt like all you had to do was remove and counter threads, board wipe when it got heavy and just drop a wincon when the time is right. No worries on combat math or "do they have removal?". You had counters for the removal and since you were playing control, they didn't have any threats you had to worry about.
I think another problem is that a lot of you guys in this thread seem to assume that control literally means "having mana leak in standard". And that removing it would somehow cause total chaos in the format as if there was no such thing as Dismember, Day Of Judgment, Black Sun's Zenith, Slagstorm, Victim Of Night, Doom Blade, Oblivion Ring, Pillar Of Flame, Whipflare, Go For The Throat, Barter In Blood, and Brimstone Volley. And that's just to name a few. If Mana Leak is so balanced, how do you explain your theory that it would make or break an entire format?
And just to clarify the Yugioh analogy. Yugioh DOES have counterspell-esque cards. And sure enough, they're run in just about every deck and restricted because of how powerful they are. So do take that into consideration the next time you go for the "JUST PLAY YUGIOH!" bs.
Nail on the head. Combo was squashed (in standard) a while ago, now it's control's turn. Heck, even Caw-Blade wasn't a true control deck... the only control decks in standard have been because of Chapin: Five Color Control (Lorwyn era), UW Treasure Hunt Control (after WWK release) and Grixis (current). It took the combination of Wrath of God, Path to Exile, Cryptic Command, Cruel Ultimatum and Volcanic Fallout and then Jace, the Mind Sculptor (!) to make control viable....
@ Jolly - I'm not sure who said blue is a "smarter" color but I agree that's false. What we're talking about here is a balance of the traditional deck styles. Two out of the three are being eliminated.
Some people don't like the president so does that mean you go out and get a new one to "play it safe" and get rid of the presidency altogether? That's what is happening with combo. Some people don't like combo (forget those that do) so it's safer not to print combo cards. Same with land destruction. It all comes down to percentages in WotC's "research" on what players like. Who knows whether or not those numbers really truly reflect the community's feelings??
Control will still be viable like it always is, most likely in UWx colors.
hmmm how can you make a counterspell that is good in Control but not in Delver? :/
Again though, how is control being eliminated? It's not like they said, "We will no longer be printing any sort of removal at all". They just said Mana Leak might be too much for the format, which it is. Not Dissipate or Cancel or Negate or Remove Soul or Psychic Barrier, just Mana Leak.
This format has TONS of removal. I didn't even think to mention Terminus, Bonfire Of The Damned, Devastation Tide and all the removal sure to come in M13 and RTR.
Control is just fine and probably has more options than it has in a long time. They're just "hopefully" getting rid of ONE unbalanced and overpowered card in the format. And I think that's grrrrrreat.
I guess a lot of blue players are really emotional about it and having a hard time dealing with it. Which is great, call it vindictive but I think it's refreshing to see the tables turned for a bit.
I mean, look at it this way guys. Think of all the fun you'll have exploring the other 4 colours in the game!
The trouble is that blue's creatures (and almost every color's creatures) are too good so there's no reason to play control. The other problem is that there isn't any combo so there's not a huge need for counterspells. I like combo... and I never thought I'd say this but I'm starting to miss control too. Counterspells are a necessary part of the game if the game is to be more than overpowered creatures.
edit - I like "brawling" sometimes but removal/counters/answers are absolutely necessary to avoid Limited environment like SOM where it was board stall after board stall until someone hit a big ol' fatty.
Easy. 1U: counter target spell if you control no creatures.
Delver won't play it because it uses counterspells to protect its creatures. This card is purely defensive (in standard at least)
Oh really? Because Delver appears to still be playing a full set of Mana Leaks main.
They just said they think Mana Leak is too good, and Remand is at an insane power level. Why would you use these as a comparison for what's good for Standard?
Standard: W/R Aggro
So someone says they've been cut from time to time, and you decide to quote one decklist to prove them wrong?
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I quoted that one decklist, but if you look at the other four or five UW Delver decks that were in the top 16 in that tournament, they were all basically identical and had 4 mana leaks.
In fact I've never seen a Delver deck that top 8'd and didn't play mana leaks. Finkel played 2, and that was the least I've ever seen.
For no specific reason (and I never read anything about Remand being "too good"). But I really believe that Modern miss Counterspell. The card has much to offer to the format.
I don't really think Modern wants a third two mana catch-all counterspell. Mono-Blue Delver would become too good.
See, this is what I don't get. You guys are saying Mana Leak is balanced. Yet you're also saying it's the one and only thing that's keeping this format from crumbling entirely. It's balanced, yet it's singlehandedly defining and holding together the entire format?
Blue has Dismember, that's a start. And since when do people play mono-blue anyway? That's another thing about blue that always bugged me. It seems blue IS Mana Leak. You ever notice that? Like no other colour is so focused around 1 card or 1 type of card. Sure black has discard, red has burn, white can kill enchantments and artifacts. But they all have other things they're known for too. Cool creatures, removal, mana ramp, etc....
It just feels like in any given set, blue has like mostly filler and then like some cool draw spell, maybe some new counterspell and occasionally that overpowered card that ends up warping the format. No other colour is like that. Every other colour is so much more multifunctional than blue yet blue is still the most popular colour. All because it can "Counterspell". So what does that really say about the ability to counter spells? Apparently it's such a strong ability that it can basically carry the whole colour.
And Mana Leak is a perfect example of that. For awhile a lot of decks in standard seemed to be splashing blue just for Mana Leak/Snapcaster.
And again, I'm definitely not saying there should be no counterspells what so ever. But Mana Leak is too cheap and too easily splashable. So is Miscalculation. Cancel and Dissipate may not be great, but I wouldn't say they're unplayable. I personally think 1UU is a far more fair cost for something as powerful as "Counter Target Spell". At very least counterspells should be made more narrow. I think it'd be fine if instead of giving you guys Mana Leak they gave like Negate and Remove Soul. Or hell, even just mana leak with a UU cost.
This would be awesome. I would love to have this on my Modern Mono U Faeries!
UU
Counter target spell unless it's controller pays 3
Sure. I'll play 8 Mana Leaks in Delver for the next few months.
terrible idea imo
Blue used to be incredibly multifaceted. In fact, far too much so, blue had the biggest slice of the color pie by far. It's a good thing that got readjusted, but for some reason they decided to take out just about everything except card draw and counterspells, the two most synergistic and powerful aspects of the color.
The real problem is that blue was designed to be the color that had very little effect on the board, with the only good creatures being on the higher end of the mana curve, and only temporary ways of dealing with permanents once they hit the board. It was supposed to make up for this weakness by being the best color at manipulating the stack, with powerful instants and sorceries, and the ability to stop spells before they hit the board if they timed it right. Early in Magic's design, this would have made sense, but ever since then it's only become more and more obvious that instants and sorceries are actually much stronger than most permanents, which is the opposite of what Richard Garfield had expected.
Now, with the game shifting to focus much more on creatures and creature combat, blue's identity as the non-creature color doesn't really work, and they still seem to be trying to figure out what to do with blue. Counterspells themselves aren't inherently broken, but there is a very very fine line between extremely powerful and useless. There is almost no middleground. The best solution, in my opinion, would be to give other colors access to counterspells, just keep the best ones in blue.
"I am confident that if anyone actually
penetrates our facades, even the most
perceptive would still be fundamentally
unprepared for the truth of House Dimir."
Haven't they already done some of this, such as Mana Tithe, Dash Hopes and red blasts?