With the way things are they could just reprint Remove Soul and most people would be happy. Standard is dominated be creatures right now and having RS plus Dissipate with Snappy backup is more than enough.
No, this would not work, as I have explained many times. Counter decks need a primary counter that has a wide range of targets, and remove soul is not that. If it does not have this then it is forced to be impotent, or run more cards that make up for narrow scope and result in dead cards in most games.
It will probably go back to the old Negate / Essence Scatter setup which is not that bad all things considered.
See above...
All these suggestions repeatedly fail to understand the functional needs of a counter deck in a competitive meta. Unless you have spent a cycle or two trying to make a counter deck work in an unfriendly meta you will never understand the basic needs of a counter deck.
All these suggestions repeatedly fail to understand the functional needs of a counter deck in a competitive meta. Unless you have spent a cycle or two trying to make a counter deck work in an unfriendly meta you will never understand the basic needs of a counter deck.
You are unlikely to see this kind of counter at CMC 2 in the near future. Hard counters that are multi-target in nature seem to be CMC 3 and above these days. Whereas CMC 2 or 1 is reserved for hard counters that are single/limited target, or soft counters that are not quite as good as Mana Leak.
As you say, "in the near future." Once Snapcaster leaves Standard, I could see a two-mana unconditional counter of some sort being printed. For the M13/RTR Standard, though? You're probably stuck with Dissipate as your best unconditional counter option.
You are unlikely to see this kind of counter at CMC 2 in the near future. Hard counters that are multi-target in nature seem to be CMC 3 and above these days. Whereas CMC 2 or 1 is reserved for hard counters that are single/limited target, or soft counters that are not quite as good as Mana Leak.
Agreed, and this is what WotC needs make policy. Note that we haven't seen a 3 mana land destruction spell in years (Fulminator beign the last - and it only hit non-basics). The default is now 4 mana.
You could easily argue "but LD decks NEED a 3 mana spell!!!" And you're right they do. This is why there AREN'T competitive LD decks.
The idea that you can just sit behind counters waiting to drop a fattie (old style draw-go) or drop a turn 1 creature and the ride counters to win (delver) is OVER. Control decks will still exist, and they will still be good - see the very successful "tap out" control decks of the last few years. Dissipate is a GREAT spell - and should be about as good as a counterspell will get for the forseeable future.
You are unlikely to see this kind of counter at CMC 2 in the near future. Hard counters that are multi-target in nature seem to be CMC 3 and above these days. Whereas CMC 2 or 1 is reserved for hard counters that are single/limited target, or soft counters that are not quite as good as Mana Leak.
If that is so, then counter magic will die. 3cmc is absolutely untenable for a counter spell that does not have a significant additional effect on CA or Tempo because it allows too much of the game to go by without counters, and highly specific 2 cmc counters clog up decks with dead cards. 1 cmc is the place for highly specific counters.
So, if Counter magic cannot be a thing blue does well, and cards like Snappy and Delver make everyone angry, where is the design room for blue in competitive magic? The anti-control lobby don't want draw-go, they don't want blue based tempo, and if Wizards creates a tap-down theme for blue I guarantee people will rage about t hat too because that is essentially stasis. People get angry when blue can steal creatures, too, so I am really at a loss trying to figure out what blue can do from a control standpoint that will be both acceptable and strong.
Here's hoping someone at Wizards understands counter magic better than you do.
If that is so, then counter magic will die. 3cmc is absolutely untenable for a counter spell that does not have a significant additional effect on CA or Tempo because it allows too much of the game to go by without counters, and highly specific 2 cmc counters clog up decks with dead cards. 1 cmc is the place for highly specific counters.
In Standard? Really?
These days, precisely what do you need to counter so early that couldn't be handled by something like Force Spike? Or even from mid to late game via either Negate or Remove Soul? Do you need to handle every single possible threat? Or do you need to consider, with only so many slots in your deck, what threats you have to handle one way or other ways you may have to handle a threat?
To me, this focus on "Must have Mana Leak." is a detrimental and incestuous line of thinking for blue. It means that Mana Leak is a crutch to prop up a deck, rather than a tool to be used as needed, or swapped with another tool that is better. It doesn't improve the color, or open up future development. It's limiting and stagnating, in the short run and in the long run.
And these days, no color has all the answers by itself. And even an answer that a color might have access to, will be limited in some way, shape, or form. That way you have to consider diversity in the deck and/or make decisions when deck building.
Here's hoping someone at Wizards understands counter magic better than you do.
*rolls eyes*
Mana Leak could stand to sit out the Core set a year or two. I'm hardly one for a "permanent removal", so much as a "Change the baseline for a while and see where things go."
To me, this focus on "Must have Mana Leak." is a detrimental and incestuous line of thinking for blue.
I do not think that blue must have Mana Leak, if you read carefully what I wrote. I said blue must have a 2 cmc counter that can hit a wide range of targets- Rune Snag is another option, as is Remand. If a set is built heavily around a theme, then stuff like Deprive can work, as well as Stoic Rebuttal, but these cannot be dropped in to a core set without prividing assistance. There is probably plenty of design room for more, as well. Mana leak leaving the core is not the problem, it is the fear that there will not be an adequate replacement.
There are a lot of good 1cmc counters:
Force Spike
Mental Misstep
Spell Snare
Dispel
All of these are highly specific and serve the roll lf providing needed sniper fire until the .50 cal's can be set up. The good 2 mana counter is the .50 cal that does the brunt of the work, and then you have Dissipate in the SB as backup to take care of what the rest can't*. If your only 2 mana counters are highly specific, like specialized ammo loads, then you need to haul around a lot and expect to have the wrong load at the wrong time, or you only bring one load-out, and risk facing a common foe that you are powerless against.
*It should be noted that I have never served in the military, and all my "knowledge" comes from games and TV, this is not meant to be accurate- it is meant to make a point.
These days, precisely what do you need to counter so early that couldn't be handled by something like Force Spike? Or even from mid to late game via either Negate or Remove Soul? Do you need to handle every single possible threat? Or do you need to consider, with only so many slots in your deck, what threats you have to handle one way or other ways you may have to handle a threat?
To me, this focus on "Must have Mana Leak." is a detrimental and incestuous line of thinking for blue. It means that Mana Leak is a crutch to prop up a deck, rather than a tool to be used as needed, or swapped with another tool that is better. It doesn't improve the color, or open up future development. It's limiting and stagnating, in the short run and in the long run.
And these days, no color has all the answers by itself. And even an answer that a color might have access to, will be limited in some way, shape, or form. That way you have to consider diversity in the deck and/or make decisions when deck building.
*rolls eyes*
Mana Leak could stand to sit out the Core set a year or two. I'm hardly one for a "permanent removal", so much as a "Change the baseline for a while and see where things go."
Mana Leak's universality is balanced by its timing restriction. Compared to something like Doom Blade, mana leak can hit more things, while Doom Blade has a longer window where it is relevant. Topdecking a mana leak the turn after a threat resolves does nothing whereas ripping that doom blade off of the top is a useful card to be able to draw.
To address your comment that Negate / Essence Scatter is sufficient countermagic at 2cmc slot: In a world where the only creatures are vanilla, Essence Scatter is strictly worse of an effect than Terminate due to its timing restriction. When you bring in creatures that have ETB abilities, or creatures with Hexproof, Essence Scatter becomes not necessarily better than Terminate, but an alternative.
In a defensively oriented deck, as most control decks are, being able to answer every single one of the opponents threats is mandatory, since any threat, if left unchecked is sufficient to kill a player. Blue (without delver, which I think was a mistake) has a very hard time outracing any threat, and so its answers to opposing threats need to be more powerful to make up for its lack of board presence.
Blue also lacks permanent removal. Bounce spells offer a temporary reprieve, but without countermagic to back them up are not a permanent answer to a threat. Lockdown effects do not remove the offending threat from the board in the same way that a burn spell might, meaning if the opponent can deal with the lockdown, they have only lost tempo.
Despite being a avid control player, I don't mind that control's strength ebbs and flows, I support the fact that other players enjoy other archetypes and that they want to win too. If wizards wants to take blue in a new direction, one less oriented to countermagic, that's fine, but they need to re-examine blue's weaknesses and print cards that address those if they chose to take away countermagic.
It will probably go back to the old Negate / Essence Scatter setup which is not that bad all things considered.
I am expecting this as well. It is not optimal. I think Negate plus creature removal spells will be the new control package. While WotC's market research indicates new player hate getting their spells countered, I think countering non-creature spells will be less offensive to people. With recent sets, WotC has designed around creatures, and Cavern of Souls seems to reinforce the idea that people want creatures on the battlefield. I also think blue becomes more of a support color with fewer counterspells.
I think Wotc is severly underestimating how the lack of viable control strategies effects a format. Some people enjoy countering / tapping and stealing things and to say things like players enjoy it more when their spells resolve is saying to them sorry control players we are going to ignore what you want just to pander to the all mighty new player. That can make some old players not want to play standard.
WotC may be expecting to attract more new players (upsell to the Pokemon and Yugioh players, because those games are creature-heavy) than the loss of old players.
I do not think that blue must have Mana Leak, if you read carefully what I wrote. I said blue must have a 2 cmc counter that can hit a wide range of targets- Rune Snag is another option, as is Remand.
All what I said was...
You are unlikely to see this kind of counter at CMC 2 in the near future. Hard counters that are multi-target in nature seem to be CMC 3 and above these days. Whereas CMC 2 or 1 is reserved for hard counters that are single/limited target, or soft counters that are not quite as good as Mana Leak.
...the point is, we're probably due for Mana Leak to see a bit of time off from standard. This won't be a horrible thing, since there will be a viable replacement. As good as Mana Leak? No. But, it may mean that the baseline for a Mana Leak-type effect is "Pay {2}" rather than "Pay {3}". Hence why I'd also recognized a potential Miscalculation w/o cycling for this spot.
If a set is built heavily around a theme, then stuff like Deprive can work...
Something I suggested earlier in the thread, as while CMC 3 is the seeming baseline for hard counters these days, a non-mana cost could potentially make for a viable reduction to CMC 2. It has to be done carefully, between consideration of the amount of fixing in the format and/or general nature of the format.
As you said, when "setting up" for things, you may have to rely on less than ideal resources early on. That is, turns 1 through 3/4 (depending on the speed of the format). Whereas, in turns 4+, then you can rely on your broader answers.
Compared to something like Doom Blade, mana leak can hit more things, while Doom Blade has a longer window where it is relevant. Topdecking a mana leak the turn after a threat resolves does nothing whereas ripping that doom blade off of the top is a useful card to be able to draw.
True, but compare Doom Blade to similar removal spells in the CMC 2 range rather than Mana Leak. Or even what it replaced, Terror. Doom Blade got "better" in the sense that it can hit artifact creatures, but it got worse against creatures that can regenerate.
Blue can only answer in certain ways; that's both its power and its drawback. Black can only answer in certain ways; that is both its power and its drawback. Further, each might be limited in what its answers can potentially affect. This is true of all the colors. This is fine given the way Standard has been moving the last couple of years. The baseline shifts all the time, in all the colors, and this does good things for the format. There are downsides, but that wax and wane is better for the game in the long run.
Blue also lacks permanent removal. Bounce spells offer a temporary reprieve, but without countermagic to back them up are not a permanent answer to a threat. Lockdown effects do not remove the offending threat from the board in the same way that a burn spell might, meaning if the opponent can deal with the lockdown, they have only lost tempo.
And perhaps changing the baseline on counters will allow for development in this area?
That's true of all counters, not just intrinsic to Mana Leak.
True, but compare Doom Blade to similar removal spells in the CMC 2 range rather than Mana Leak. Or even what it replaced, Terror. Doom Blade got "better" in the sense that it can hit artifact creatures, but it got worse against creatures that can regenerate.
Compare Mana Leak to Counterspell, Mana leak loses power in the late game, but makes up for it with a less restrictive mana cost. Compared to Negate, it has a broader range of targets, but can be rendered irrelevant.
Blue can only answer in certain ways; that's both its power and its drawback. Black can only answer in certain ways; that is both its power and its drawback. Further, each might be limited in what its answers can potentially affect. This is true of all the colors. This is fine given the way Standard has been moving the last couple of years. The baseline shifts all the time, in all the colors, and this does good things for the format. There are downsides, but that wax and wane is better for the game in the long run.
And perhaps changing the baseline on counters will allow for development in this area?
I would be very interested to see a way to deal with permanents that feels "blue". Transformation ala pongify would be an interesting way to go about it.
What we will argue are the subpar tools we will be getting in exchange for that cut. That's the problem, trying to get the cheap propaganda down most player's throats.
Why does blue 'deserve' to be compensated? It's not like red got anything good in return after Zendikar rotated out. And at least blue got some really good cards in this set already!
Ah, but it is not all about casting it on turn 2. It is also about leaving open a reasonable amount of mana to counter possible threats, and waiting till you can leave 1UU (or even 2U) ruins control's game as much as not being able to take care of the most critical early threats.
If you want draw/go in Standard I got some bad news for you.....
Until Snapcaster Mage leaves they won't be printing any really good counters as they have to think that anything they print basically has flashback. And flashback on counters is insanely good. Bank on it.
I would not want draw-go in Standard, as that ubiquitous level of counter coverage would be alienating for the average FNM player, but that does not mean that having some draw-go style plays when it matters is out of the question.
You're talking about Red not getting good cards since Zendikar, over Blue witch is already arguable.
How so? Has red ever gotten anything as broken as Delver and Snapcaster, in one set no less (not to mention that Snapcaster Mage really should have been a red card)?
What did red get? A two mana planeswalker that was neutered to the point of being unplayable! The development team is probably still congratulating themselves with that one. Of course I'm certain that they'll wind up creating a two mana blue planeswalker that is completely broken because they 'forgot' to properly test it!
Last time I checked Red had Lightning bolt. Blue hasn't had its orignaly "boon" since Unlimited. Hell it hasn't had its Nurfed boon (Brainstorm) either. Red Still has some good mana rituals I belive.
Last time I checked Red had Lightning bolt. Blue hasn't had its orignaly "boon" since Unlimited. Hell it hasn't had its Nurfed boon (Brainstorm) either. Red Still has some good mana rituals I belive.
Completely meaningless. The "boon" cards are hardly balanced.
The problem is not having to answer every single threat, but rather, not having a single decent answer to those threats. After a Titan hits play, Liliana can kill it (if it survives, let's say, an Inferno Titan), but still won't really answer it. Most of the times, the damage is already done. Primeval Titan would already dropped Inkmoth + Kessig, and would keep us on a very short clock.
That is always going to be a weakness with every color. No color has an answer for every situation on its own. And that's a reasonable weakness to have in order to keep the game dynamic and interesting.
Also, i don't see any complaints from control / combo players about the wonderful variety discard spells available. Duress, Inquisition, Thoughtseize, Raven's Crime, Liliana. And those hit a players hand, witch is also before they are played. The argument can work both ways, as you can easily see, bot only one side get's the short end of the straw.
I don't see how blue has gotten the short end of any stick. If anything, it's been handed a few different sticks in terms of what is good in blue, rather than getting shafted. Now, that could be a problem in terms of something blue shouldn't get, and I would acknowledge that. But blue is hardly at the bottom of the pile in Standard or Modern these days.
But that shouldn't be the point of the discussion. Whether blue is "the color" is a disingenuous argument. What should be the point is (1) reasonable solutions to the removal of Mana Leak and (2) ways to identify other areas to develop answers that aren't necessarily counters.
If blue must rely on counters, then it's a one-trick pony. And I think that's a bad path to follow for the future. It takes depth out of the color, and reduces its overall influence in the game. Now, it may not have the best answers in other situations, but I think that's fine.
However, the suggestion that blue must have it or it just fails, is a faulty argument in my opinion. Should there always be good, playable counters in the Core set? Absolutely. But requiring that to be Mana Leak all the time just leads to stagnation in the development of counters.
That's no better than a red player saying he must have Lightning Bolt or red is just unplayable, or a white player needing Squadron Hawk, etc. By tweaking and adjusting the various tools, you get plenty of solid, playable cards for those colors even if you don't have the one you'd prefer.
Worst thing is, some will actually believe that. Some players will believe that Mana Leak, and counters are the real problem, even though they don't exist (or barely) in an actual Modern / Standard Metagame.
I don't believe that Mana Leak or other counters are a real problem in either Standard or Modern. There's a big difference in suggesting that Mana Leak take time off from the Core set to allow for the development of more counters or other answers in blue, versus saying it's "too good" and shouldn't be printed at all ever again.
I recognize that in Zac Hill's statement, and the overall context of the discussion. Especially as part of the wax and wane of counters versus other cards.
I would be very interested to see a way to deal with permanents that feels "blue". Transformation ala pongify would be an interesting way to go about it.
Well, you have Tamiyo, the Moon Sage, which is a step in the proper direction. A +1 ability that isn't just "drawing cards", and is a pretty good representation of a blue effect that has been on Frost Titan and other cards in the last couple of years.
I've been playing Delver for a while and lost today to Cavern of Souls. I don't care if Mana Leak rotates, in fact I'm happy about it, I'll just adapt and actually play something else, the new Standard seems like it'll crush Delver decks anyway, though it's still a great deck.
Blue kind of doesn't have real solid answers, and we can compare it's case to other colors.
Why not? So far, there have been some who've been really quick to compare blue to black when it comes to removal. So, why do you want to limit the argument when we start looking across the spectrum at how other colors do/don't handle other problems?
You can't have the argument go only the one way. If you want to make comparisons of counters to removal, then you can't disallow other comparisons as well.
You don't? Tell me how is blue card drawing nowadays. Instant speed, we only have (as playable) Think Twice. There was a time when a Thirst for Knowledge wasn't that much of an efficient carddrawer, comparing to others. others. Blue decks nowadays would kill for TFK, since the cardrawing has become so much worse.
Of course drawing cards have been "made worse". Lots of things have been made worse compared to older cards; some have been made better. That's part of the wax and wane in Magic, and modern development.
When it comes to drawing more than one card at a time, most of that is now relegated to sorceries rather than instants. That's been a distinct slowdown in modern development, because drawing cards via instants can be a very powerful effect. Or, you have to pay an increased cost to get that kind of effect if it is an instant. For example, Azure Mage has "instant card drawing", except you have to get Azure Mage on the battlefield first.
Then again, there's Forbidden Alchemy these days, which is a really good way for blue/black to dig for answers. But, you are never going to get exactly the same effect these days as you used to get in the past. At least not for the costs that you used to pay.
The correct term wouldn't me shafted, but more than that, neutered.
Blue has hardly been "neutered" any more than it has been "shafted" or anything else. Is it as powerful as it used to be? No. But blue still has a huge presence in many Standard decks. Its role is much different, but I think that's a problem for other reasons.
But this is also happening, more or less, with the other colors. Standard has been slowed down to make the games last longer. Every color has been experiencing that to an extent, which is part of the wax/wane that should occur as a natural part of development these days.
Most "reasonable" solutions presented would still have high synergy with Snapcaster Mage. That's why most ideas have been debated and pointed as "not viable".
You can't ignore the current format when developing anything. To look at any single card in a vacuum just doesn't work. To do that leads to mistakes that have been made in the past. And short of banning Snapcaster Mage, the FFL can't ignore its potential presence in any deck that has blue. No differently than it can ignore any other card.
Consider Intangible Virtue and token generation...
Mana Leak leaving because "it's too powerful nowadays and should never see print" -> is not even something that should be taken serious, giving the power level of the other "mistakes", and even admiting
Except that's not the statement that was made. The "never see print" isn't in that statement at all. And I think it is disingenuous to keep characterizing the statement that way. Even then, that statement can hardly be taken to mean that Mana Leak will "never" come back in the Core set.
The statement is simply a recognition of the relative power of Mana Leak's effect versus it's cost these days. No more, no less.
We have no solid control deck with counters i Stanrdard (not even Modern, since Faeries is Tempo based). We have no solid "Sligh" based deck available. GR Aggro isn't "Sligh", and WRR sure isn't as well.
The decks that are or aren't viable in the format depends on a lot of factors, and there are certainly decks that weren't viable that are now viable. And that keeps shifting. Eventually someone will discover a "best" control deck that works in the format, though I think there are already various control decks that work well these days. Or, the next set will come in and give more tools that allow for such a deck to develop. But it's rare that you will get exactly what you want in Standard these days. You may get something close, but more than that is overly wishful thinking.
That's simply part of the normal cycle in development these days; it prevents stagnation in the format, which is healthy for the game in the short and long runs.
U are missing the point, u are now forced to run bad cards to stop only 1 part of the meta
Gutshot is a bad card? Ok. You are SO right. Last I checked, direct damage that one can run for free in any color deck one wants is SO bad. No one should ever use this card. Absolutely.
I was looking through the various blue stuff in Standard at the moment, and wondered if they could do a variant of Steel Sabotage, except strictly for creatures. That might have to be UU or 2U, since the current "Counter target creature spell" is 1U, and Unsummon is U.
Yeah, Force Spike may or may not be good in the format. I think the concept is sound, in that it is a 1 mana cost-for-1 mana tax. But that might be too efficient. Miscalculation without cycling is probably the next best thing if Mana Leak isn't reprinted. And honestly, that feels like shifting from Terror to Doom Blade to me.
Edit: But, honestly, the more I look at creatures like Fettergeist and Lone Revenant (especially when the latter has a sword or Spectral Flight), the more interesting MUC becomes. And there's Alchemist's Apprentice as an early blocker. I don't know if it's tier 1, but it might be an interesting thing to try at FNM.
That could be pretty cool. UU :Counter target creature spell, or return target creature to its owner's hand. Not too paowerful, multi-purpose, and interesting. It would be really sad if WotC took something like this good idea, and ruined it somehow. Like by printing a land that makes creatures uncounterable. Oh wait, they did just that! I guess there is always Ghost Quarter. I had completely forgotten about Cavern of Souls in this whole discussion of counter spells. ARGH!
I recently had another such moment. I was looking through my Innistrad last night and found Frightful Delusions, which I had initially passed over because it was a three mana soft counter (Force Spike soft no less...). Now, I read it, and though to myself, man, that would be interesting to try, had they NOT put it into a set with a bunch of flashback cards.... Frightful Delusions is exactly the kind of thing that worries me about WotC and their recent hatred of counter spells working at all. With this in mind, I kinda have to wonder if they will replace Leak with anything at all. Why would one print a counter spell that has a discard bonus in a set full of flashback? Why would one print a land that makes creatures uncounterable right before
a new core set in which it looks like one of the fairest options would be to print a creature targeting counter spell? It seems like only someone that wants to cripple counter cards would do things like this. I understand limiting, but crippling is ridiculous. Hell, to make up for all of the control leg breaking they have been doing, they may just need to reprint Cryptic to balance out the balancing they have done. I still think Mana Leak needs to go. I was excited to see it when I found out they were going to reprint it, just like I was excited to see the titans for the first time. Now, I think all these things should go in favor of something new. Why? Because new shakes up the game. Thoughtfully fun, and good to play new stuff changes the entire meta. I think some new stuff would be awesome.
However, the suggestion that blue must have it or it just fails, is a faulty argument in my opinion. Should there always be good, playable counters in the Core set? Absolutely. But requiring that to be Mana Leak all the time just leads to stagnation in the development of counters.
It seems to me that you are misunderstanding the intent of the objection to the removal of Mana Leak. I don't think anyone is saying that it should be a permanent fixture in Standard, they are saying that blue should always have a good poly-targeting counter spell in Standard. There are a few different cards that can take it's place (like Rune Snag) in the back catalog, and there is design room for more, but it really must be 2 cmc, poly-targeting, and not result in additional tempo or CA loss on the part of the counter player. If all you are arguing is that we need some variety in the good counter spells in Standard then I fully agree, but if you are arguing that we need to remove Mana Leak and not replace it with a counter spell that is the same (or similar) power level, then we are in contention.
Mana Leak is not a Sacred Cow, but the need it fills is critical to a healthy metagame.
Mana Leak should be replaced by Rites of Refusal. We have a two sets heavily based in graveyard mechanics, namely flashback, so this card is the best and most fair replacement for mana leak that already exists. If played correctly, this functions the same as Mana Leak. Yes, you have to lose a little card advantage. So then whichever card you chose to discard (and hopefully you are making a good choice) will only get to be played once instead of twice. Darn. However, this guy has the added bonus of being MORE relevant late game. This gives you the ability to say "Screw it, I really don't want that going off" and allows you to ditch however many cards you need to make the payoff out of your opponents reach. But then you lose those cards in hand, and can only play them out of your graveyard. So, it weakens Delver slightly (maybe even considerably) by taking some of its early game card advantage, while at the same time actually getting a little better in the mid-game than Mana Leak. This only makes sense because we are working with a Standard full of flashback stuff. This won't strengthen Modern any because the counters in that format are all better than this one, so there is nothing to worry about there. And hell, if they are going to print some crap like Frightful Delusion in a flashback set, and they are planning on taking away Mana Leak, then they might as well be considerate and give us this instead. This is better than Remove Soul, but not quite as good as Leak.
PS. I am also advocating for a Cryptic Command reprint. At 4 cmc, and in light of Cavern of Souls, I don't think it would break the game right now.
EDIT:
Quote from DrWorm »
There are a few different cards that can take it's place (like Rune Snag) in the back catalog, and there is design room for more, but it really must be 2 cmc, poly-targeting, and not result in additional tempo or CA loss on the part of the counter player.
2 cmc, yes. Polytargeting, yes. Not result in additional tempo or CA loss, no. Blue needs to lose either CA or tempo, at least in the early game, so that blue gets out of aggro. Delver is NOT a control deck. Delver is blatantly an aggro deck. Ideally, in Delver, you do not interact at all with your opponents board. This is essentially a Fish deck. Since this (blue aggro) is clearly an affront to everyone's sensibilities, blue's early game needs to be slowed down. Since the tempo is in the realm of Delver, Stalker, Geist, etc. then clearly CA is what should be dented. Thus, Rites of Refusal is a perfect replacement.
Delver is NOT a control deck. Delver is blatantly an aggro deck. Ideally, in Delver, you do not interact at all with your opponents board. This is essentially a Fish deck. Since this (blue aggro) is clearly an affront to everyone's sensibilities, blue's early game needs to be slowed down. Since the tempo is in the realm of Delver, Stalker, Geist, etc. then clearly CA is what should be dented. Thus, Rites of Refusal is a perfect replacement.
Mana Leak is not a tempo card, so why should the card that replaces it be any less of a tempo card. Delver is a Tempo deck, not an aggro deck, as aggro really only runs creatures and direct damage spells (maybe a couple of removal spells too). Delver uses cheap blue instants to put their opponent off their tempo, while maintaining pressure by way of cheap evasive creatures so it is clearly a tempo deck.
CA is really poor at the moment in Standard (from what I can tell), so hurting it more would be very bad.
See above...
All these suggestions repeatedly fail to understand the functional needs of a counter deck in a competitive meta. Unless you have spent a cycle or two trying to make a counter deck work in an unfriendly meta you will never understand the basic needs of a counter deck.
Reprint Opt for Modern!!
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You are unlikely to see this kind of counter at CMC 2 in the near future. Hard counters that are multi-target in nature seem to be CMC 3 and above these days. Whereas CMC 2 or 1 is reserved for hard counters that are single/limited target, or soft counters that are not quite as good as Mana Leak.
Agreed, and this is what WotC needs make policy. Note that we haven't seen a 3 mana land destruction spell in years (Fulminator beign the last - and it only hit non-basics). The default is now 4 mana.
You could easily argue "but LD decks NEED a 3 mana spell!!!" And you're right they do. This is why there AREN'T competitive LD decks.
The idea that you can just sit behind counters waiting to drop a fattie (old style draw-go) or drop a turn 1 creature and the ride counters to win (delver) is OVER. Control decks will still exist, and they will still be good - see the very successful "tap out" control decks of the last few years. Dissipate is a GREAT spell - and should be about as good as a counterspell will get for the forseeable future.
So, if Counter magic cannot be a thing blue does well, and cards like Snappy and Delver make everyone angry, where is the design room for blue in competitive magic? The anti-control lobby don't want draw-go, they don't want blue based tempo, and if Wizards creates a tap-down theme for blue I guarantee people will rage about t hat too because that is essentially stasis. People get angry when blue can steal creatures, too, so I am really at a loss trying to figure out what blue can do from a control standpoint that will be both acceptable and strong.
Here's hoping someone at Wizards understands counter magic better than you do.
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In Standard? Really?
These days, precisely what do you need to counter so early that couldn't be handled by something like Force Spike? Or even from mid to late game via either Negate or Remove Soul? Do you need to handle every single possible threat? Or do you need to consider, with only so many slots in your deck, what threats you have to handle one way or other ways you may have to handle a threat?
To me, this focus on "Must have Mana Leak." is a detrimental and incestuous line of thinking for blue. It means that Mana Leak is a crutch to prop up a deck, rather than a tool to be used as needed, or swapped with another tool that is better. It doesn't improve the color, or open up future development. It's limiting and stagnating, in the short run and in the long run.
And these days, no color has all the answers by itself. And even an answer that a color might have access to, will be limited in some way, shape, or form. That way you have to consider diversity in the deck and/or make decisions when deck building.
*rolls eyes*
Mana Leak could stand to sit out the Core set a year or two. I'm hardly one for a "permanent removal", so much as a "Change the baseline for a while and see where things go."
There are a lot of good 1cmc counters:
Force Spike
Mental Misstep
Spell Snare
Dispel
All of these are highly specific and serve the roll lf providing needed sniper fire until the .50 cal's can be set up. The good 2 mana counter is the .50 cal that does the brunt of the work, and then you have Dissipate in the SB as backup to take care of what the rest can't*. If your only 2 mana counters are highly specific, like specialized ammo loads, then you need to haul around a lot and expect to have the wrong load at the wrong time, or you only bring one load-out, and risk facing a common foe that you are powerless against.
*It should be noted that I have never served in the military, and all my "knowledge" comes from games and TV, this is not meant to be accurate- it is meant to make a point.
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Mana Leak's universality is balanced by its timing restriction. Compared to something like Doom Blade, mana leak can hit more things, while Doom Blade has a longer window where it is relevant. Topdecking a mana leak the turn after a threat resolves does nothing whereas ripping that doom blade off of the top is a useful card to be able to draw.
To address your comment that Negate / Essence Scatter is sufficient countermagic at 2cmc slot: In a world where the only creatures are vanilla, Essence Scatter is strictly worse of an effect than Terminate due to its timing restriction. When you bring in creatures that have ETB abilities, or creatures with Hexproof, Essence Scatter becomes not necessarily better than Terminate, but an alternative.
In a defensively oriented deck, as most control decks are, being able to answer every single one of the opponents threats is mandatory, since any threat, if left unchecked is sufficient to kill a player. Blue (without delver, which I think was a mistake) has a very hard time outracing any threat, and so its answers to opposing threats need to be more powerful to make up for its lack of board presence.
Blue also lacks permanent removal. Bounce spells offer a temporary reprieve, but without countermagic to back them up are not a permanent answer to a threat. Lockdown effects do not remove the offending threat from the board in the same way that a burn spell might, meaning if the opponent can deal with the lockdown, they have only lost tempo.
Despite being a avid control player, I don't mind that control's strength ebbs and flows, I support the fact that other players enjoy other archetypes and that they want to win too. If wizards wants to take blue in a new direction, one less oriented to countermagic, that's fine, but they need to re-examine blue's weaknesses and print cards that address those if they chose to take away countermagic.
I am expecting this as well. It is not optimal. I think Negate plus creature removal spells will be the new control package. While WotC's market research indicates new player hate getting their spells countered, I think countering non-creature spells will be less offensive to people. With recent sets, WotC has designed around creatures, and Cavern of Souls seems to reinforce the idea that people want creatures on the battlefield. I also think blue becomes more of a support color with fewer counterspells.
WotC may be expecting to attract more new players (upsell to the Pokemon and Yugioh players, because those games are creature-heavy) than the loss of old players.
All what I said was...
You are unlikely to see this kind of counter at CMC 2 in the near future. Hard counters that are multi-target in nature seem to be CMC 3 and above these days. Whereas CMC 2 or 1 is reserved for hard counters that are single/limited target, or soft counters that are not quite as good as Mana Leak.
...the point is, we're probably due for Mana Leak to see a bit of time off from standard. This won't be a horrible thing, since there will be a viable replacement. As good as Mana Leak? No. But, it may mean that the baseline for a Mana Leak-type effect is "Pay {2}" rather than "Pay {3}". Hence why I'd also recognized a potential Miscalculation w/o cycling for this spot.
Something I suggested earlier in the thread, as while CMC 3 is the seeming baseline for hard counters these days, a non-mana cost could potentially make for a viable reduction to CMC 2. It has to be done carefully, between consideration of the amount of fixing in the format and/or general nature of the format.
As you said, when "setting up" for things, you may have to rely on less than ideal resources early on. That is, turns 1 through 3/4 (depending on the speed of the format). Whereas, in turns 4+, then you can rely on your broader answers.
That's true of all counters, not just intrinsic to Mana Leak.
True, but compare Doom Blade to similar removal spells in the CMC 2 range rather than Mana Leak. Or even what it replaced, Terror. Doom Blade got "better" in the sense that it can hit artifact creatures, but it got worse against creatures that can regenerate.
Blue can only answer in certain ways; that's both its power and its drawback. Black can only answer in certain ways; that is both its power and its drawback. Further, each might be limited in what its answers can potentially affect. This is true of all the colors. This is fine given the way Standard has been moving the last couple of years. The baseline shifts all the time, in all the colors, and this does good things for the format. There are downsides, but that wax and wane is better for the game in the long run.
And perhaps changing the baseline on counters will allow for development in this area?
Compare Mana Leak to Counterspell, Mana leak loses power in the late game, but makes up for it with a less restrictive mana cost. Compared to Negate, it has a broader range of targets, but can be rendered irrelevant.
I would be very interested to see a way to deal with permanents that feels "blue". Transformation ala pongify would be an interesting way to go about it.
Why does blue 'deserve' to be compensated? It's not like red got anything good in return after Zendikar rotated out. And at least blue got some really good cards in this set already!
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How so? Has red ever gotten anything as broken as Delver and Snapcaster, in one set no less (not to mention that Snapcaster Mage really should have been a red card)?
What did red get? A two mana planeswalker that was neutered to the point of being unplayable! The development team is probably still congratulating themselves with that one. Of course I'm certain that they'll wind up creating a two mana blue planeswalker that is completely broken because they 'forgot' to properly test it!
Completely meaningless. The "boon" cards are hardly balanced.
That is always going to be a weakness with every color. No color has an answer for every situation on its own. And that's a reasonable weakness to have in order to keep the game dynamic and interesting.
I don't see how blue has gotten the short end of any stick. If anything, it's been handed a few different sticks in terms of what is good in blue, rather than getting shafted. Now, that could be a problem in terms of something blue shouldn't get, and I would acknowledge that. But blue is hardly at the bottom of the pile in Standard or Modern these days.
But that shouldn't be the point of the discussion. Whether blue is "the color" is a disingenuous argument. What should be the point is (1) reasonable solutions to the removal of Mana Leak and (2) ways to identify other areas to develop answers that aren't necessarily counters.
If blue must rely on counters, then it's a one-trick pony. And I think that's a bad path to follow for the future. It takes depth out of the color, and reduces its overall influence in the game. Now, it may not have the best answers in other situations, but I think that's fine.
Of course it does. I don't maintain otherwise.
However, the suggestion that blue must have it or it just fails, is a faulty argument in my opinion. Should there always be good, playable counters in the Core set? Absolutely. But requiring that to be Mana Leak all the time just leads to stagnation in the development of counters.
That's no better than a red player saying he must have Lightning Bolt or red is just unplayable, or a white player needing Squadron Hawk, etc. By tweaking and adjusting the various tools, you get plenty of solid, playable cards for those colors even if you don't have the one you'd prefer.
I don't believe that Mana Leak or other counters are a real problem in either Standard or Modern. There's a big difference in suggesting that Mana Leak take time off from the Core set to allow for the development of more counters or other answers in blue, versus saying it's "too good" and shouldn't be printed at all ever again.
I recognize that in Zac Hill's statement, and the overall context of the discussion. Especially as part of the wax and wane of counters versus other cards.
Well, you have Tamiyo, the Moon Sage, which is a step in the proper direction. A +1 ability that isn't just "drawing cards", and is a pretty good representation of a blue effect that has been on Frost Titan and other cards in the last couple of years.
Why not? So far, there have been some who've been really quick to compare blue to black when it comes to removal. So, why do you want to limit the argument when we start looking across the spectrum at how other colors do/don't handle other problems?
You can't have the argument go only the one way. If you want to make comparisons of counters to removal, then you can't disallow other comparisons as well.
Of course drawing cards have been "made worse". Lots of things have been made worse compared to older cards; some have been made better. That's part of the wax and wane in Magic, and modern development.
When it comes to drawing more than one card at a time, most of that is now relegated to sorceries rather than instants. That's been a distinct slowdown in modern development, because drawing cards via instants can be a very powerful effect. Or, you have to pay an increased cost to get that kind of effect if it is an instant. For example, Azure Mage has "instant card drawing", except you have to get Azure Mage on the battlefield first.
Then again, there's Forbidden Alchemy these days, which is a really good way for blue/black to dig for answers. But, you are never going to get exactly the same effect these days as you used to get in the past. At least not for the costs that you used to pay.
Blue has hardly been "neutered" any more than it has been "shafted" or anything else. Is it as powerful as it used to be? No. But blue still has a huge presence in many Standard decks. Its role is much different, but I think that's a problem for other reasons.
But this is also happening, more or less, with the other colors. Standard has been slowed down to make the games last longer. Every color has been experiencing that to an extent, which is part of the wax/wane that should occur as a natural part of development these days.
You can't ignore the current format when developing anything. To look at any single card in a vacuum just doesn't work. To do that leads to mistakes that have been made in the past. And short of banning Snapcaster Mage, the FFL can't ignore its potential presence in any deck that has blue. No differently than it can ignore any other card.
Consider Intangible Virtue and token generation...
Except that's not the statement that was made. The "never see print" isn't in that statement at all. And I think it is disingenuous to keep characterizing the statement that way. Even then, that statement can hardly be taken to mean that Mana Leak will "never" come back in the Core set.
The statement is simply a recognition of the relative power of Mana Leak's effect versus it's cost these days. No more, no less.
The decks that are or aren't viable in the format depends on a lot of factors, and there are certainly decks that weren't viable that are now viable. And that keeps shifting. Eventually someone will discover a "best" control deck that works in the format, though I think there are already various control decks that work well these days. Or, the next set will come in and give more tools that allow for such a deck to develop. But it's rare that you will get exactly what you want in Standard these days. You may get something close, but more than that is overly wishful thinking.
That's simply part of the normal cycle in development these days; it prevents stagnation in the format, which is healthy for the game in the short and long runs.
Gutshot is a bad card? Ok. You are SO right. Last I checked, direct damage that one can run for free in any color deck one wants is SO bad. No one should ever use this card. Absolutely.
That could be pretty cool. UU :Counter target creature spell, or return target creature to its owner's hand. Not too paowerful, multi-purpose, and interesting. It would be really sad if WotC took something like this good idea, and ruined it somehow. Like by printing a land that makes creatures uncounterable. Oh wait, they did just that! I guess there is always Ghost Quarter. I had completely forgotten about Cavern of Souls in this whole discussion of counter spells. ARGH!
I recently had another such moment. I was looking through my Innistrad last night and found Frightful Delusions, which I had initially passed over because it was a three mana soft counter (Force Spike soft no less...). Now, I read it, and though to myself, man, that would be interesting to try, had they NOT put it into a set with a bunch of flashback cards.... Frightful Delusions is exactly the kind of thing that worries me about WotC and their recent hatred of counter spells working at all. With this in mind, I kinda have to wonder if they will replace Leak with anything at all. Why would one print a counter spell that has a discard bonus in a set full of flashback? Why would one print a land that makes creatures uncounterable right before
a new core set in which it looks like one of the fairest options would be to print a creature targeting counter spell? It seems like only someone that wants to cripple counter cards would do things like this. I understand limiting, but crippling is ridiculous. Hell, to make up for all of the control leg breaking they have been doing, they may just need to reprint Cryptic to balance out the balancing they have done. I still think Mana Leak needs to go. I was excited to see it when I found out they were going to reprint it, just like I was excited to see the titans for the first time. Now, I think all these things should go in favor of something new. Why? Because new shakes up the game. Thoughtfully fun, and good to play new stuff changes the entire meta. I think some new stuff would be awesome.
Mana Leak is not a Sacred Cow, but the need it fills is critical to a healthy metagame.
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PS. I am also advocating for a Cryptic Command reprint. At 4 cmc, and in light of Cavern of Souls, I don't think it would break the game right now.
EDIT:
2 cmc, yes. Polytargeting, yes. Not result in additional tempo or CA loss, no. Blue needs to lose either CA or tempo, at least in the early game, so that blue gets out of aggro. Delver is NOT a control deck. Delver is blatantly an aggro deck. Ideally, in Delver, you do not interact at all with your opponents board. This is essentially a Fish deck. Since this (blue aggro) is clearly an affront to everyone's sensibilities, blue's early game needs to be slowed down. Since the tempo is in the realm of Delver, Stalker, Geist, etc. then clearly CA is what should be dented. Thus, Rites of Refusal is a perfect replacement.
CA is really poor at the moment in Standard (from what I can tell), so hurting it more would be very bad.
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