We should be asking ourselves what kind of game set up is WOTC thinking of, where it alright to cast a counterspell?
They don't want SM doubling the number of counterspells in your deck, even though Vapor snag is strictly a better tactic against creatures.
So, would they allow a creature hate counterspell, or a noncreature? Those already exist, are spashable, and are hard counters; Remove Soul, and Negate. There's the soft ones too, but I doubt they'll use up 4 slots for just counterspells.
I think the bottom line is they don't want a 2 or 1 mana counterspell capable of taking down almost anything. It's strange because they've printed stuff like victim or night, go for the throat, all while hosing blue. Counter and kill spells are barely different. Snapcaster and Delver are good U cards amongst a plethora of crap. They shouldn't depower a whole color because of one or two cards.
I just read the article acknowledging snapcaster as a mistake. I know at one point they considered putting counterspell in M10 but decided against it.
I suspect it will come back one day, and until reading that article I would have said that it wouldn't happen until Snapcaster had left the format.
But...with Cavern of Souls....could that keep it in check? Maybe...
Sure, Ghost quarter is around to answer Cavern as well, but if I want counter mana with Counterspell I can't drop the quarter until turn 3.
So that means that the aggro deck gets its drops on turns 1 & 2.
And for most Aggro decks, that should be enough. Stormkirk + Stormblood = enough. Llanowar elf + Dungrove elder = enough. Delver + Snapcaster = enough.
I almost could see counterspell making a comeback at this point. I certainly wouldn't rule it out.
As an additional cost to play ~, exile a blue card from your hand.
Counter target spell.
With the cast from exile flying mythic comming out in AVR I can't see that happening now (at a diffrent time sure)
A couple of other things as a red mage I have to say. U pay 3 life; counter target spell is just what I want to see a blue player play, sure counter my 3 damage burn spell, take three damage and lose a card. My opponent can bolt themselves all they want (something like that needs to be at 2 maybe)
RR for 6 damage is broke beyond belief. It would break ALL formats by giving red too good an answer.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Current Decks
Standard BEtched Champion/InfectB WSoilders/knightsW WUVenser SplicerWU RRDWR GFeed the Pack comboG WUPool of ExhaustionWU
EDH GEzuri, Elf OverrunG BGeth, GraverobberB UThada Adel, ThiefU RUrabrask, Big RedR WElesh Norn, CrusadeW WUGAngus Makenzie, Bant ControlWUG
Firstly Counterspell isn't too powerful and since M13 would / should be the technical 20th anniversary core set I wouldn't be the least bit surprised to see an old friend find it's way back into standard.
If not I could totally see wizards making a completely new 2 mana cycle for M13. Something like
It is now clear you have no idea how balance works.
On topic, it seems silly to print Cancel with Dissipate in the [standard] format, but then they stupidly printed shock with Galvanic Blast in standard so I guess they really don't know what they're doing.
On topic, it seems silly to print Cancel with Dissipate in the [standard] format, but then they stupidly printed shock with Galvanic Blast in standard so I guess they really don't know what they're doing.
those cards are there for limited concerns, you'll notice that neither pair is in the same block.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Current Decks
Standard BEtched Champion/InfectB WSoilders/knightsW WUVenser SplicerWU RRDWR GFeed the Pack comboG WUPool of ExhaustionWU
EDH GEzuri, Elf OverrunG BGeth, GraverobberB UThada Adel, ThiefU RUrabrask, Big RedR WElesh Norn, CrusadeW WUGAngus Makenzie, Bant ControlWUG
1. Counterspells usually hit every card type and not just creatures
2. They don't let the card use their enter the battlefield triggers
3. The card never hits play so interactions with other cards become a non-factor (ie Champion of the Parish getting +1/+1 or an Illusion getting the benefit of Hexproof from a Lord that is already in play)
4. You can use other cards and spells to interact with cards in play to protect them from kill spells (ie Faith's Shield, blink effects) but there is very little outside of counterspells that you can use on cards while their on the stack.
Then sure, they are "barely different". In other words they are actually radically different because when a creature enters play it means something, and there is a multitude of things you can do that interact with it or with things your opponent tries to do that affect it. Even if it's just something as weak as using Altar's Reap in response, you still got some value. But there is very little that affects the stack, which is one of the reasons why counterspells are so powerful.
1. Counterspells usually hit every card type and not just creatures
2. They don't let the card use their enter the battlefield triggers
3. The card never hits play so interactions with other cards become a non-factor (ie Champion of the Parish getting +1/+1 or an Illusion getting the benefit of Hexproof from a Lord that is already in play)
4. You can use other cards and spells to interact with cards in play to protect them from kill spells (ie Faith's Shield, blink effects) but there is very little outside of counterspells that you can use on cards while their on the stack.
Then sure, they are "barely different". In other words they are actually radically different because when a creature enters play it means something, and there is a multitude of things you can do that interact with it or with things your opponent tries to do that affect it. Even if it's just something as weak as using Altar's Reap in response, you still got some value. But there is very little that affects the stack, which is one of the reasons why counterspells are so powerful.
You're ignoring that counters can only be used at one time vs removal being used whenever. That is absolutely huge.
Cavern isn't for 'sneaking' in 1 & 2 drops, it's for resolving threats against control decks, when they are banking on using that Mana Leak to counter it.
Honestly, as little of a presence as control has right now, Cavern doesn't seem that great.
How about.... UR
Counter target spell.
~ deals three damage to you.
???
Er, wait, are we out of multicolor already? Bah. I doubt we're going to see a good counterspell. The thread title is misleading, as it's 100% baseless speculation.
You're ignoring that counters can only be used at one time vs removal being used whenever. That is absolutely huge.
I'm not ignoring it, but I am saying that it matters less than what it's made to be. Blue is the colour of library manipulation and card draw already to help with this. Also something like a Titan you're going to have to kill right away anyway. It's a factor,I agree, but that doesn't come close to balancing out all the advantages.
Edit: It's also worth noting that "kill spells" exist in every colour. Even Blue when you include bounce, tapping, and power/toughness changing abilities. The ability to interact with the stack however, largely only exists in one colour.
Sorry to rain on everyone's parade, but they most likely aren't going to print a powerful counterspell anytime soon. At the very least not one that costs 2 mana.
Absolutely everything they've said and done since about 7th edition indicates they want counterspells to cost 3 mana. They tried their experiment with Mana Leak, they don't like it, and now I think we're gonna have to be content with Cancel.
I don't think they're gonna replace Leak. If they do, a 2 mana tax spell would be nice - rune snag without the getting better? But if you've read the Cavern of Souls article, it seems obvious that at least that one columnist thinks Mana Leak is "destroying the game".
If anything, I can see an XU counterspell with no extra provisions. 2 mana force spike! 4 mana mana leak! "fantastic".
Quote from brasswire »
It's also worth noting that "kill spells" exist in every colour. Even Blue when you include bounce, tapping, and power/toughness changing abilities. The ability to interact with the stack however, largely only exists in one colour.
The correct response to this isn't to take out all interaction with the stack, though, is it? Isn't it to give different colors different ways to interact with the stack?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
my mouth is full of winsome lies -
and eyes are full of death besides
but luckily the soul is wise -
it sees beyond my blindness and
forced failure makes a better guise,
so as i come again alive,
it feels like life's a decent plan
I think they need to let negate/essence scatter be the 2 mana counters. But at the same time, they need to make the 3 mana counters a good bit better.
Really, just do a search for every counter that casts 2UU and start picking them and cutting 1 colorless off of the costs. Dismiss and Lay Bare would be decent first choices.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I support WotC's goal of shaping Modern in favor of diversity.
I ran a thought experiment on my blog Modern in a Nuclear Wasteland
of an extreme case of banning 20 more cards to make sure they get everything, then scaling back where appropriate. WotC seems to be on a slowly build up approach. Both ways probably reach similar end points.
The post Gatecrash metagame is proving to be closer to the endpoint than I estimated, so its very possible that few (if any) more cards need to be banned.
I think they need to let negate/essence scatter be the 2 mana counters. But at the same time, they need to make the 3 mana counters a good bit better.
Really, just do a search for every counter that casts 2UU and start picking them and cutting 1 colorless off of the costs. Dismiss and Lay Bare would be decent first choices.
For a hard 3cmc counter to be 'fair' it would need a VERY slight benefit. Dissipate is the best example of being ever so slightly better than cancel without being Dismiss good. Things like Lay Bare might be able to exist at 3 but I dunno.
100% agree on Negate and Remove Soul needing to exist more often, or perhaps Rune Snag.
The correct response to this isn't to take out all interaction with the stack, though, is it? Isn't it to give different colors different ways to interact with the stack?
I really think that this is the problem. The fact that blue is the only way to reliably interact with the stack is a major oversight for the game. I feel like some of the "blue hate" might be lessened if other colors could disrupt in an effective fashion.
On topic, I feel like we might get counterspell back because A: it will sell M13 and B: it would be a good thing for Modern. Also, depending on how you count the years, we could be upon the 20th anniversary magic set.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Sig by Dark Night Cavalier at Heroes of the Plane Studios!
I really think that this is the problem. The fact that blue is the only way to reliably interact with the stack is a major oversight for the game. I feel like some of the "blue hate" might be lessened if other colors could disrupt in an effective fashion.
all the colors have had some sort of counter spell over the years, not as good as the blue ones, but still playable. so blue isn't the only color that has always been able to interact with the stack.
all the colors have had some sort of counter spell over the years, not as good as the blue ones, but still playable. so blue isn't the only color that has always been able to interact with the stack.
Not always, but what green, black, red, or white spells interact with the stack /now/? And out of all the green/black/red/white spells that interact with the stack, how many were played? I can only think of Mana Tithe - and various split second cards.
Lapse of certainty wasn't played. In any case, there aren't any that I know of in Standard now, except maybe Silence [did that rotate?], but that /barely/ counts.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
my mouth is full of winsome lies -
and eyes are full of death besides
but luckily the soul is wise -
it sees beyond my blindness and
forced failure makes a better guise,
so as i come again alive,
it feels like life's a decent plan
Those of you that think that if people ask for Counterspell enough they will print it are just plain wrong. MaRo recently said that sometimes they have to give players what the game needs, rather than what players want (or think they want. Those are tiough calls, I imagine, but they have the perspective of future-sight. Additionally, the quickest they can respond to such demand would be 16 months before the card is printed (Friends is currently getting finalized and will soon start the printing process, and MaRo said that it will be 16 months till he can talk about it).
I suspect that as long as MaRo and AaFo are a major part of Design and Development then we will not see counterspell or a counter of it's equal (powerwise) ever printed.
I would love Memory Lapse, but it is stronger than Mana Leak so I imagine the closest reprint I would expect is my favorite counter- Rune Snag.
I really think that this is the problem. The fact that blue is the only way to reliably interact with the stack is a major oversight for the game. I feel like some of the "blue hate" might be lessened if other colors could disrupt in an effective fashion.
Though blue does most of the interaction with the stack, removal, self sacrifice, and protection all have important effects on the stack- I get stuff removed on the stack before it can be resolved all the time by other colors.
They don't want SM doubling the number of counterspells in your deck, even though Vapor snag is strictly a better tactic against creatures.
So, would they allow a creature hate counterspell, or a noncreature? Those already exist, are spashable, and are hard counters; Remove Soul, and Negate. There's the soft ones too, but I doubt they'll use up 4 slots for just counterspells.
I think the bottom line is they don't want a 2 or 1 mana counterspell capable of taking down almost anything. It's strange because they've printed stuff like victim or night, go for the throat, all while hosing blue. Counter and kill spells are barely different. Snapcaster and Delver are good U cards amongst a plethora of crap. They shouldn't depower a whole color because of one or two cards.
So, we'll probably get something like Ixidor's Will instead, or maybe a blue deathmark/flashfreeze, probably in a cycle.
I suspect it will come back one day, and until reading that article I would have said that it wouldn't happen until Snapcaster had left the format.
But...with Cavern of Souls....could that keep it in check? Maybe...
Sure, Ghost quarter is around to answer Cavern as well, but if I want counter mana with Counterspell I can't drop the quarter until turn 3.
So that means that the aggro deck gets its drops on turns 1 & 2.
And for most Aggro decks, that should be enough. Stormkirk + Stormblood = enough. Llanowar elf + Dungrove elder = enough. Delver + Snapcaster = enough.
I almost could see counterspell making a comeback at this point. I certainly wouldn't rule it out.
[[b]B]DCI Level 2 Judge[/B][/b]With the cast from exile flying mythic comming out in AVR I can't see that happening now (at a diffrent time sure)
A couple of other things as a red mage I have to say. U pay 3 life; counter target spell is just what I want to see a blue player play, sure counter my 3 damage burn spell, take three damage and lose a card. My opponent can bolt themselves all they want (something like that needs to be at 2 maybe)
RR for 6 damage is broke beyond belief. It would break ALL formats by giving red too good an answer.
BEtched Champion/InfectB
WSoilders/knightsW
WUVenser SplicerWU
RRDWR
GFeed the Pack comboG
WUPool of ExhaustionWU
EDH
GEzuri, Elf OverrunG
BGeth, GraverobberB
UThada Adel, ThiefU
RUrabrask, Big RedR
WElesh Norn, CrusadeW
WUGAngus Makenzie, Bant ControlWUG
Extended
WGElvesWG
Legacy
RGoblinsR
UBGFariesUBG
UBGRaffinityUBG
It is now clear you have no idea how balance works.
On topic, it seems silly to print Cancel with Dissipate in the [standard] format, but then they stupidly printed shock with Galvanic Blast in standard so I guess they really don't know what they're doing.
those cards are there for limited concerns, you'll notice that neither pair is in the same block.
BEtched Champion/InfectB
WSoilders/knightsW
WUVenser SplicerWU
RRDWR
GFeed the Pack comboG
WUPool of ExhaustionWU
EDH
GEzuri, Elf OverrunG
BGeth, GraverobberB
UThada Adel, ThiefU
RUrabrask, Big RedR
WElesh Norn, CrusadeW
WUGAngus Makenzie, Bant ControlWUG
Extended
WGElvesWG
Legacy
RGoblinsR
UBGFariesUBG
UBGRaffinityUBG
Tiamat, Chromatic Dragon RWUBG
Planeswalker - Tiamat
[+1] Sit on Nicol Bolas
[+0] Wait for him to beg for mercy, rule the multiverse.
[-7] Not necessary, she is the ultimate.
Without the cantrip it would be a worse memory lapse (terrible). And no, I'm not saying lapse is bad.
Well if it's acknowledged that
1. Counterspells usually hit every card type and not just creatures
2. They don't let the card use their enter the battlefield triggers
3. The card never hits play so interactions with other cards become a non-factor (ie Champion of the Parish getting +1/+1 or an Illusion getting the benefit of Hexproof from a Lord that is already in play)
4. You can use other cards and spells to interact with cards in play to protect them from kill spells (ie Faith's Shield, blink effects) but there is very little outside of counterspells that you can use on cards while their on the stack.
Then sure, they are "barely different". In other words they are actually radically different because when a creature enters play it means something, and there is a multitude of things you can do that interact with it or with things your opponent tries to do that affect it. Even if it's just something as weak as using Altar's Reap in response, you still got some value. But there is very little that affects the stack, which is one of the reasons why counterspells are so powerful.
You're ignoring that counters can only be used at one time vs removal being used whenever. That is absolutely huge.
Played: Naya
participated in 5k Virginia Type 2
Played: Naya
1st Place WPN Qualifier for San Juan
Played: Red/Black Samoles
Tournament plans:
Grand prix D.C.
PTQ in San Juan, Invited
Playing: We'll See...
As someone who enjoys the game being interesting and colors all doing different things I say, be less petty
Honestly, as little of a presence as control has right now, Cavern doesn't seem that great.
WBG Karador GBW
R Daretti R
RG Omnath GR
WRG Modern Burn GRW
WB Modern Tokens BW
DCI Rules Advisor as of 5/18/2015
UR
Counter target spell.
~ deals three damage to you.
???
Er, wait, are we out of multicolor already? Bah. I doubt we're going to see a good counterspell. The thread title is misleading, as it's 100% baseless speculation.
I'm not ignoring it, but I am saying that it matters less than what it's made to be. Blue is the colour of library manipulation and card draw already to help with this. Also something like a Titan you're going to have to kill right away anyway. It's a factor,I agree, but that doesn't come close to balancing out all the advantages.
Edit: It's also worth noting that "kill spells" exist in every colour. Even Blue when you include bounce, tapping, and power/toughness changing abilities. The ability to interact with the stack however, largely only exists in one colour.
Absolutely everything they've said and done since about 7th edition indicates they want counterspells to cost 3 mana. They tried their experiment with Mana Leak, they don't like it, and now I think we're gonna have to be content with Cancel.
Counter target spell unless its controller pays 2
This should be good enough.
If anything, I can see an XU counterspell with no extra provisions. 2 mana force spike! 4 mana mana leak! "fantastic".
The correct response to this isn't to take out all interaction with the stack, though, is it? Isn't it to give different colors different ways to interact with the stack?
and eyes are full of death besides
but luckily the soul is wise -
it sees beyond my blindness and
forced failure makes a better guise,
so as i come again alive,
it feels like life's a decent plan
On Modern Masters 2:
Will be kept until 12/31/2013 to prove if Right or Wrong.Proven right 1/27/2013Really, just do a search for every counter that casts 2UU and start picking them and cutting 1 colorless off of the costs. Dismiss and Lay Bare would be decent first choices.
I ran a thought experiment on my blog
Modern in a Nuclear Wasteland
of an extreme case of banning 20 more cards to make sure they get everything, then scaling back where appropriate. WotC seems to be on a slowly build up approach. Both ways probably reach similar end points.
The post Gatecrash metagame is proving to be closer to the endpoint than I estimated, so its very possible that few (if any) more cards need to be banned.
For a hard 3cmc counter to be 'fair' it would need a VERY slight benefit. Dissipate is the best example of being ever so slightly better than cancel without being Dismiss good. Things like Lay Bare might be able to exist at 3 but I dunno.
100% agree on Negate and Remove Soul needing to exist more often, or perhaps Rune Snag.
I really think that this is the problem. The fact that blue is the only way to reliably interact with the stack is a major oversight for the game. I feel like some of the "blue hate" might be lessened if other colors could disrupt in an effective fashion.
On topic, I feel like we might get counterspell back because A: it will sell M13 and B: it would be a good thing for Modern. Also, depending on how you count the years, we could be upon the 20th anniversary magic set.
all the colors have had some sort of counter spell over the years, not as good as the blue ones, but still playable. so blue isn't the only color that has always been able to interact with the stack.
Not always, but what green, black, red, or white spells interact with the stack /now/? And out of all the green/black/red/white spells that interact with the stack, how many were played? I can only think of Mana Tithe - and various split second cards.
Lapse of certainty wasn't played. In any case, there aren't any that I know of in Standard now, except maybe Silence [did that rotate?], but that /barely/ counts.
and eyes are full of death besides
but luckily the soul is wise -
it sees beyond my blindness and
forced failure makes a better guise,
so as i come again alive,
it feels like life's a decent plan
1UU
Instant
See Mana Drain
there ya go..costs 3. I'd play that over Mana Leak. "oh whats that, your going to cast that geist? nope, counter, next turn, play titan, GG"
this is a joke btw. lol. but it would be awesome...
I suspect that as long as MaRo and AaFo are a major part of Design and Development then we will not see counterspell or a counter of it's equal (powerwise) ever printed.
I would love Memory Lapse, but it is stronger than Mana Leak so I imagine the closest reprint I would expect is my favorite counter- Rune Snag.
Though blue does most of the interaction with the stack, removal, self sacrifice, and protection all have important effects on the stack- I get stuff removed on the stack before it can be resolved all the time by other colors.
Reprint Opt for Modern!!
FREE DIG THOROUGH TIME!
PLAY MORE ROUGE DECKS!