Any chance of a counterspell with flashback?

  • #1
    With the current block focusing on flashback so much, I've been curious how plausible a counterspell with flashback would be. Maybe something that costs 1UU & flashbacks for 2UU or 3UU. I don't know how much a card like that would warp the standard format.
  • #2
    It would be really bad judging by last time that happened which was Fervent Denial. The problem with flashback on a counterspell is that it demands a high flashback cost otherwise the game would have no interactions which is the opposite of what wizards wants
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  • #3
    I don't see them printing a really playable counterspell alongside Mana Leak. It's funy though when you think about how many really amazing counterspells were in Standard when Tempest and Urza's were legal, it boggles the mind: (Counterspell, Mana Leak, Dismiss, Forbid, Power Sink, Miscalculation...)

    I would like to see something like Forbid, that can only be used twice. Maybe something like:

    Forbid 2.0
    1UU
    Counter target spell

    Flashback -1UU, Discard two cards.

    I know it's still too good for this day and age, but think, it's still worse than forbid!
    Last edited by Juju: 1/28/2012 4:06:21 PM
  • #4
    I think your best chances are Snapcaster Mage and Mystic Retrieval if that's what you're looking for.
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  • #5
    I doubt it, the main reason being that counterspells aren't supposed to be predictable. It would just sit there until they tapped too many or you bait the counter, and most people would hate to have to do that.
  • #6
    There is zero chance of it happening.

    Maro has said a lot of times that they didn't want to put anything surprising with flashback. Even the card that gave flying and had flashback was taken out because they were too afraid it would surprise people.

    A flashback counterspell would be the ultimate version of this so if Jump isn't allowed to flashback there is no way counterspell is.
  • #7
    Quote from UnderwaterGuy
    There is zero chance of it happening.

    Maro has said a lot of times that they didn't want to put anything surprising with flashback. Even the card that gave flying and had flashback was taken out because they were too afraid it would surprise people.

    A flashback counterspell would be the ultimate version of this so if Jump isn't allowed to flashback there is no way counterspell is.


    That's weird. I played three Feeling of Dread in an III draft recently, to great effect, and It seemed to me like they're a good card to use as a surprise. Mostly for keeping attackers tapped.
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  • #8
    That's true but at least it doesn't destroy anything. You have a good point but I'm just repeating what Maro said. It would seem out of character for wotc to make a counterspell like this that was playable.
  • #9
    They printed a counterspell with flashback in Odyssey Block, I think it was Fervent Denial It was awful and saw zero play(it wasn't even a 1 of SB card in Wake, even though that deck ran a SB full of 1 of cards with flashback). Even if they printed that spell now, despite spells being vastly less powerful in today's MTG than they were back then, the card would still see no play, except possibly in Limited.

    So..I wouldn't expect it to happen. They just don't print good countermagic anymore, because it is 'not fun'. It cracks me up when people say things like 'Mana Leak is too good as it is'. Mana Leak isn't that good at all, it's just what people are used to..but no one bats an eyelash when cards like Lightning Bolt and Duress get reprinted.
  • #10
    Nothing is more frustrating than seeing a counterspell with flashback in someones yard when you want to cast a spell. Since they want to make Magic more fun, I do not see that happening.
  • #11
    You cannot print a good counterspell with flashback. It would cause a rise in blue decks and prove more that magic favors control.
  • #12
    Quote from Cyan
    They printed a counterspell with flashback in Odyssey Block, I think it was Fervent Denial It was awful and saw zero play(it wasn't even a 1 of SB card in Wake, even though that deck ran a SB full of 1 of cards with flashback). Even if they printed that spell now, despite spells being vastly less powerful in today's MTG than they were back then, the card would still see no play, except possibly in Limited.

    So..I wouldn't expect it to happen. They just don't print good countermagic anymore, because it is 'not fun'. It cracks me up when people say things like 'Mana Leak is too good as it is'. Mana Leak isn't that good at all, it's just what people are used to..but no one bats an eyelash when cards like Lightning Bolt and Duress get reprinted.


    Well the problem is that blue historically could deal with pretty much anything due to its counterspells while the other colors could only deal with some things.

    That is why people say that mana leak is too powerful - it answers pretty much creature or noncreature card.

    I think more conditional counterspells are better for the game.
  • #13
    I'd love this card for this block:

    Counter target Spell

    mana, exile ~ from the grave: counter target spell played from the graveyard

    Alas, AVR likely has zero flashback!
  • #14
    Quote from Zachalmighty
    You cannot print a good counterspell with flashback. It would cause a rise in blue decks and prove more that magic favors control.


    Ahahahaha. Sorry, but all this crying over counterspells is making my belly hurt.

    Really, if you guys hate counterspells, go play a different game, please. Getting your spell countered is the same as having it vindicated/maelstrom pulse'd, it just feels different.

    Also, just look at the powerlevel of creatures. I say magic favors aggro these days.
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  • #15
    Quote from Hinotama
    Well the problem is that blue historically could deal with pretty much anything due to its counterspells while the other colors could only deal with some things.

    That is why people say that mana leak is too powerful - it answers pretty much creature or noncreature card.

    I think more conditional counterspells are better for the game.


    Counterspells don't really need to be nerfed even further so they are more conditional or more expensive to cast. Yes, counterspells to most people are very powerful. Being able to say no to virtually any non-land spell ever printed in the history of Magic is very strong. I understand that. But aside from the traditional "play nothing on my turn, counter all your relevant cards that you will ever play on yours", when both players have countermagic the game can be quite fun because both players can be on the same axis of interactivity rather than just one.

    Wizards has been a lot more generous with color pie bleeding than it used to be. They have given colors things they never would have gotten years ago, such as giving green completely unconditional creature removal in Beast Within or red the ability to "destroy" enchantments with Chaos Warp. But since the beginning of the game, blue has had a monopoly on countermagic. No other color gets unconditional hard counters other than blue (or even soft counters). The fact that a single color has had dominance over such a fundamentally powerful ability is why blue has been the runaway #1 color since Magic started. Imagine if black had a monopoly on all creature removal, or green on artifact destruction.

    So my two cents are this: leave good countermagic as it is, but start giving it to another color like white. Blue shouldn't be the only color that can interact with the stack, ESPECIALLY when Wizards has put such an extreme emphasis on creatures with ETB triggers that counterspells can stop outright without card disadvantage but removal can't. This is why countering a creature is mechanically different from using removal to kill it, TeknoLink. The former denies my opponent of tutoring for an equipment or two lands while the latter leaves me powerless for letting a powerful ETB trigger resolve.
  • #16
    Maybe;

    1U - Instant

    Counter target spell cast from a graveyard.

    Flashback 2UUU

    Doesn't seem THAT bad, since it's quite restrictive.
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  • #17
    Quote from Polendino
    Maybe;

    1U - Instant

    Counter target spell cast from a graveyard.

    Flashback 2UUU

    Doesn't seem THAT bad, since it's quite restrictive.

    Although I'm not sure if it'd happen, I can actually see this being printed; it's pretty darn restrictive.
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  • #18
    Quote from Surging Chaos


    So my two cents are this: leave good countermagic as it is, but start giving it to another color like white. Blue shouldn't be the only color that can interact with the stack, ESPECIALLY when Wizards has put such an extreme emphasis on creatures with ETB triggers that counterspells can stop outright without card disadvantage but removal can't. This is why countering a creature is mechanically different from using removal to kill it, TeknoLink. The former denies my opponent of tutoring for an equipment or two lands while the latter leaves me powerless for letting a powerful ETB trigger resolve.


    Splicing up the themes between red and white would probably work. Having those reflect the color purple. Then giving the anti-creature summonsing to black.


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  • #19
    Quote from TeknoLink
    Ahahahaha. Sorry, but all this crying over counterspells is making my belly hurt.

    Really, if you guys hate counterspells, go play a different game, please. Getting your spell countered is the same as having it vindicated/maelstrom pulse'd, it just feels different.


    You might want to think about that comment again, because it does more than just feel different. Countering a Titan and Vindicating a Titan are completely different things that end up with completely different board states. There's a reason why creatures like Titans are valued so highly and it's expressly because they still have an affect on the game if they get hit with creature removal, an advantage which counterspells get around.

    IMHO cards like Mana Leak, Dissipate, Dispel, Negate, Flashfreeze, are all fine and right about the power level that counterspells should be. They are something that WotC needs to keep a close eye on because they have such a powerful effect on the game.
  • #20
    It'd need to be a really narrow counter or maybe something that doesn't generate card advantage(a bounce-counter or something that lets the Spells' controller draw a card, for example).

    Either way, as it has been said before, there might not be Flashback in Avacyn Restored.
  • #21
    Quote from Surging Chaos
    But since the beginning of the game, blue has had a monopoly on countermagic. No other color gets unconditional hard counters other than blue (or even soft counters). The fact that a single color has had dominance over such a fundamentally powerful ability is why blue has been the runaway #1 color since Magic started.

    Mana Tithe
    Dash Hopes

    I dislike the idea of a counterspell with flashback and I play control. It would either be counter intuitive and lead to boring games or be so bad that it'd be unplayable and take up a slot they could have used to print a better counterspell.
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  • #22
    Quote from Spoofed
    Mana Tithe
    Dash Hopes

    I dislike the idea of a counterspell with flashback and I play control. It would either be counter intuitive and lead to boring games or be so bad that it'd be unplayable and take up a slot they could have used to print a better counterspell.


    IMO, Colorshifted cards don't really count when saying which part of the color pie they reside in unless they're something that later gets reprinted, like Naturalize. AFAIK, that leaves us with precious few examples that don't totally suck.
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  • #23


    Mana Tithe has seen some play, although it has been more on the marginal side. Force Spike isn't a bad counter, but it's still situational at best. Same goes with a non-blue counter like Lapse of Certainty. Dash Hopes is an awful, awful card. It doesn't matter if you give other colors counters if they're just going to suck. Molten Influence is also another great example of this.

    Would it really be sacrilege to print a 1WW Cancel? I honestly don't think so. More colors should be able to interact on the stack, as well as having better answers to Enters the Battlefield: The Gathering.
  • #24
    The problem is, if it they cost it at 4 (and say 4-6 for flashback) it would probably be too good. The only way they would really do it (even then it's a stretch) is make it conditional somehow (think mana leak/force spike) or cost 6 mana and do something else. (one of the non-draw cryptic effects). I think something like:

    Flashback Conditional Hard Counter 2UU

    Counter Target non-Creature spell

    Flashback 2UU

    Counter Target Creature Spell

    would be fine, it's still probably too strong.

    Even

    Flashback mana leak variant 2U

    Counter target spell unless it's controller pays 3

    Flashback 2UU

    would be insane.

    Fervent Denial was too expensive, but had they reduced the mana cost by 1 on each cost it would have been really good.
    Last edited by Wydogg5305: 1/29/2012 1:26:06 PM
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    Bident Layers
    B Devotion
    RG Devotion
    UW Control

    Modern:
    Jund
    UW Control
    Combo Pod

    Legacy:

    DeathBlade
    RUG Delver
    BUG Control

  • #25
    Quote from Spoofed
    Mana Tithe
    Dash Hopes

    I dislike the idea of a counterspell with flashback and I play control. It would either be counter intuitive and lead to boring games or be so bad that it'd be unplayable and take up a slot they could have used to print a better counterspell.


    to be fair both of those aren't "hard counters" and were in Planar Chaos, a set that intentionally spun the color wheel HARD.

    And yes, if they make a "good" flashback counterspell, it would make for very boring games of magic.
    Standard:
    Bident Layers
    B Devotion
    RG Devotion
    UW Control

    Modern:
    Jund
    UW Control
    Combo Pod

    Legacy:

    DeathBlade
    RUG Delver
    BUG Control

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