(Edit)They're making an effort to solidly establish an inhuman malicious side to each color in the past couple sets and the next few. Not just in the books, but actually making evil looking / feeling creatures in each color.
SoM block and soon ISD are going to establish horror counterparts to each color by inventing and color shifting what were previously black aligned creature types and imagery.(/Edit)
In old sets (Typically), White was Human, and black was monsters. Depending on how close you were to one of those two factions on the color wheel typically defined how human/natural or inhuman/unnatural you were. Alara illustrated this perfectly. Banf UWG was Knights and civil society, and Grixis UBR was walking death and hell. Leaving Esper WUB to literally and figuratively be mostly grey, while Naya WGR and Jund RGB were varying levels of survivable based on that proximity.
Innistrad block is the flavor redefine for the color wheel. After SoM and ISD, each color will have an inhuman malicious group associated with it.
Green and Red Werewolves.
Blue Zombies
White Ghosts
Red and Black Vampires
These are all what was once typically black creatures, because they were stereotypical monsters. With SoM block we started to see it. Wizards is shifting the colors to each have their own version of monsters. They've said it many times before. The colors aren't supposed to be good or evil. I think they're finally trying to make that true flavor wise.
In old sets, White was good, and black was evil. Depending on how close you were to one of those two factions on the color wheel typically defined how good or evil you were.
That's just patently untrue. Kamigawa, for example, had a white villain and a black hero.
They're obsessed with "dark" sets now. Naturally "evil" has to end up in every color for as long as that's true. Come a lighter set (if ever) and we'll be closer to status quo again.
Not true. It's true that White had the guys in shiny armour and the Angels, while black had the horrors and demons, but that's not the same thing. Take for example Witch Hunter. Pretty clearly an "evil" dude, from way back in the beginning, in White.
The colors tend to vary in flavor relative to one another in their environment. The best example is Lorwyn, where most of the blue/black/red cards weren't evil, but rather mischievous. Flavorwise, the "evil" characters were green elves.
Then, in Shadowmoor, all the colors became pretty evil. Except elves, who were the good guys.
I would argue that until the last block, the examples listed so far represent the exceptions. Black has always clearly been the evil color. Demons, sacrifice, were-creatures, zombies, dark ritual, Ghosts, wraiths, poltergeist, gremlins... need I go on? They got the real monsters, while the other colors got beasts, wizards and dragons. With SoM Block we started to see the real evil sides of each color.
-Green Predation
-White Oligarchy
-Blue Experimentation
We also saw the light side of red, Independence
ISD is taking this further and moving the horror monsters into their own colors. Zombies representing reanimated corpses are moving into blue. Werewolves, having a dark aspect of nature, are moving into green and red. Vampires.. I don't quite understand going into red.. But Ghosts in white fits the spiritual nature of white.
I'm kind of curious to see how they restructure black, now that their monsters are shifting to other colors. Yet to see the good side of black, either.
That's just patently untrue. Kamigawa, for example, had a white villain and a black hero.
Seen as how the quote you are referring didn't say anything about '100%' of the time and your support is an exception rather than the rule I find it very safe to agree with the OP. Typically, white represented the good guys and black represented the bad guys. I don't see how this is untrue.
As for the color wheel shifting in ISD I figure it's only temporary to accomodate for creatures of night/horror across 5 colors evenly. Really all that's been identified is that the creatures will be defined in certain colors, however this isn't going to change the design of the cards themselves and how they tie to the colors' philosohpies.
At least I don't believe creature types are necessarily a part of the 'color pie'. That's more of a flavor thing than a design thing. Design can be based around the flavor. The colors of the creatures have more to do with that the creature is doing.
A color pie shift isn't so much moving creatures into different colors as it is letting other colors do things it doesn't usually do (blue raise dead effect) or do some things it sometimes do more often (white counterspells).
Take for example Witch Hunter. Pretty clearly an "evil" dude, from way back in the beginning, in White.
I don't understand how Witch Hunter is anything but a flavorful representation of white being 'Good'. It's not a Witch who is a Hunter. It's a Hunter who hunts witches (typically considered evil and are black).
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Being black doesn't necessarily mean that a character is evil. It means that the character firs in well with black flavor. They could bring forth dark creatures, be a vampire, or "look out for number one", no matter what the cost. None of these things make a character evil. Sorin Markov, Chainer, Umezawa, and Myojin of Night's Reach are all black protagonists. They may have dark themes, but they are ultimately good.
Every other color has had evil characters, but most of them are secretly evil. Gwafa Hazid is evil, but he is secretly evil. He has more to do with deceit and political corruption than he does with giving off an evil presence. Other colors can be outwardly evil too, like all of the phyrexian cards in SOM block.
And now, may I ask why anyone believes that werewolves and ghosts are evil? Werewolves are dangerous, sure, but so are snakes. They may be monsters, but they are not in fact evil. Ghosts have traditionally been in white, and they are not always evil. The might be mischievous, but I don't think that the ghosts will be killing innocent people and trying to gain control of the plane.
One of my favorite cards of recent sets flavor-wise has gotta be Elesh Norn. Even though she's pure white, her ability fits into the color wheel of giving power to those around her, but does so by sucking it from others. Perfect example of how to mess with the color wheel.
Lorwyn / Shadowmoor was a great example of this. Lorwyn showed BR as fairly harmless and just a bit disgusting in a light-hearted kind of way, and UB were tricksters but it was mostly harmless pranks, whereas GB (mostly G) were the 'evil' ones.
Subsequently in Shadowmoor WU was seen in a negative and overly superstitious light. GW were pure, which was a bit of a given, but the important thing about that is it showed the formerly 'evil' elves redeemed.
In Ravnica each guild was shown in both a good and a harsh light. Sure, UB were the main baddies and RW the goodies, but other baddies included UR, WU, GU and BG.
In the Ice Age stories the Church of Tal (W) were the crazed zealots trying to eradicate magic / artifacts.
Each colour has shown its other sides before. I find GWGEtaBoUtEvEntimEaStHE'GoodiES'and[MANA]UB as the baddies. I'd love to have a story where U is the goodie and G the baddie, but that may be some time off...
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Gaymer
Custom Card / Set Reviewer
When reviewing custom cards / sets, I look for (a) flavour, (b) function, and (c) cohesiveness, generally through a risk focus.
what colors are good and evil are in the eye of the beholder. Also following the old DnD alignment chart is a lot easier to describe stuff, then just simple good and simple evil. It also depends on how the story is told and how you perceive that story.
For Example, The Phyrexians may not be evil, but from the point of the story and the way it is told they are. It all just
depends.
I don't understand how Witch Hunter is anything but a flavorful representation of white being 'Good'. It's not a Witch who is a Hunter. It's a Hunter who hunts witches (typically considered evil and are black).
It's a guy who goes around to towns and villages who gets to select people for execution. He does this by creating fear ("witches are evil!") and justifies it by convincing people that it's for their own protection ("they'll bewitch your children!"). Look at the picture, that's no noble hunter. It's a classic example of Evil White.
White has traditionally been the color of protection, prevention and small creatures that tend to win in numbers. They are also the color of dogmatic views, close-minded beliefs, and the lawful type. In other words they excommunicate those that don’t believe, restrict ideas all under the flag of justice.
It's the mix that gives each color flavor. I could do this for each color... and i will.
Black is selfish yet can be self sacrificing in a tragic way
Blue seeks knoledge to better itself but sometimes at the cost of other or in some cases itself.
Green is intune with nature but some times at odds with progress.
Red is free spireted and un burdened though this often leads to disorder.
In what universe? If you build a deck like that, and ever draw that hand, I will personally come to wherever you live, perform complicated acts of awestruck ********, then disembowel myself to escape the world that allowed something like this to occur and validate you.
I wish I still had links, but MaRo did a series of articles years ago about each color, where he very clearly outlines how each color can be good or evil. One of his biggest examples is that White can easily become Fascist, and Black can work towards capitalist freedom.
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Level 1 Judge
EDH:
:symb::symb: Marrow-Gnawer :symb::symb: - :symw::symu: Grand Arbiter Augustin IV :symw::symu: - :symb::symb: Toshiro Umezawa :symb::symb: - :symg::symg: Sachi, Daughter of Seshiro :symg::symg:
Lorwyn / Shadowmoor was a great example of this. Lorwyn showed BR as fairly harmless and just a bit disgusting in a light-hearted kind of way, and UB were tricksters but it was mostly harmless pranks, whereas GB (mostly G) were the 'evil' ones.
Subsequently in Shadowmoor WU was seen in a negative and overly superstitious light. GW were pure, which was a bit of a given, but the important thing about that is it showed the formerly 'evil' elves redeemed.
In Ravnica each guild was shown in both a good and a harsh light. Sure, UB were the main baddies and RW the goodies, but other baddies included UR, WU, GU and BG.
In the Ice Age stories the Church of Tal (W) were the crazed zealots trying to eradicate magic / artifacts.
Each colour has shown its other sides before. I find GWGEtaBoUtEvEntimEaStHE'GoodiES'and[mana]UB as the baddies. I'd love to have a story where U is the goodie and G the baddie, but that may be some time off...
The UB were far from harmless. The fey were ****ing scary. Dreamspoiler Witches, Oona's Gatewarden, Sower of Temptation. Etc. And then there was the short story in Shadowmoor about the Kithkin that was led astray by Faeries....
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You've got a rat in your walls, and cheese won't solve anything.
^Agreed. The Faeries in Lorwyn were almost as bad as the Elves. The Boggarts and Treefolk seemed to be the more positive side of Black (Colfenor's pretty darn Black, and he wasn't really evil).
Anyway... Try reading these articles. They contain a lot of information on what MaRo thinks makes the colors tick.
(Thanks a lot to the wiki editors for preserving these)
The point the original poster is trying to make isn't as "in-depth" as what you guys are proposing.
No duh all colors can be good/evil.
He's saying that on the outside, from a 1st look, white is good, black is evil.
This has always been the case.
No. No, it's not. Every color has good in it, every color has evil in it. This has always been the case and always will be, and it's part of what makes magic so cool. Black tends to be very dark (go figure) but that's not the same as evil. Yes, Innistrad and New Phyrexia both make a conscious effort to bring out the darkness in the other colors. This is because the last time they tried to make a "dark" set with the cards heavily weighted towards black, Torment, it was not very well-recieved by anyone who wasn't a big fan of black.
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"I am confident that if anyone actually
penetrates our facades, even the most
perceptive would still be fundamentally
unprepared for the truth of House Dimir."
I'm of the mindset that the colour determines the motives of the card, not the moral alignment. White is for the sake of order, which many would see as totalitarian, where as black is for a structured despotism. Neither of these mindsets are inherently good or evil, they're just philosophical differences.
I don't really disagree with much of what is said. There are examples of evil in each color throughout magic since story became important. What I mean to say is this:
They're making an effort to solidly establish a dark side to each color in the past couple sets and the next few. Not just in the books, but actually making evil looking / feeling creatures in each color.
SoM block and soon ISD are going to establish evil counterparts to each color by color shifting what were previously black aligned creature types and imagery.
White wraiths and poltergeist
Blue zombies and reanimations
Green werewolves and other beasts
Red vampires.. and who knows. Maniacs? like Uncle Istvan
... still not sure about red vampires.. Vampires make perfect black. Stealing lifeforce. Red has dragons and goblins. destructive and fiery. Maybe not horror like, but definitely red. Guess red could get Oozes.
SoM block and soon ISD are going to establish horror counterparts to each color by inventing and color shifting what were previously black aligned creature types and imagery.(/Edit)
In old sets (Typically), White was Human, and black was monsters. Depending on how close you were to one of those two factions on the color wheel typically defined how human/natural or inhuman/unnatural you were. Alara illustrated this perfectly. Banf UWG was Knights and civil society, and Grixis UBR was walking death and hell. Leaving Esper WUB to literally and figuratively be mostly grey, while Naya WGR and Jund RGB were varying levels of survivable based on that proximity.
Innistrad block is the flavor redefine for the color wheel. After SoM and ISD, each color will have an inhuman malicious group associated with it.
Green and Red Werewolves.
Blue Zombies
White Ghosts
Red and Black Vampires
These are all what was once typically black creatures, because they were stereotypical monsters. With SoM block we started to see it. Wizards is shifting the colors to each have their own version of monsters. They've said it many times before. The colors aren't supposed to be good or evil. I think they're finally trying to make that true flavor wise.
That's just patently untrue. Kamigawa, for example, had a white villain and a black hero.
Not true. It's true that White had the guys in shiny armour and the Angels, while black had the horrors and demons, but that's not the same thing. Take for example Witch Hunter. Pretty clearly an "evil" dude, from way back in the beginning, in White.
Then, in Shadowmoor, all the colors became pretty evil. Except elves, who were the good guys.
Kuro, Pitlord - Life Gain/Drain MBC
Malfegor - Discard and Punishment
Ghave, Guru of Spores - Fungus Tribal
building Dralnu, Lichlord - Arcane Draw-Go
-Green Predation
-White Oligarchy
-Blue Experimentation
We also saw the light side of red, Independence
ISD is taking this further and moving the horror monsters into their own colors. Zombies representing reanimated corpses are moving into blue. Werewolves, having a dark aspect of nature, are moving into green and red. Vampires.. I don't quite understand going into red.. But Ghosts in white fits the spiritual nature of white.
I'm kind of curious to see how they restructure black, now that their monsters are shifting to other colors. Yet to see the good side of black, either.
Seen as how the quote you are referring didn't say anything about '100%' of the time and your support is an exception rather than the rule I find it very safe to agree with the OP. Typically, white represented the good guys and black represented the bad guys. I don't see how this is untrue.
As for the color wheel shifting in ISD I figure it's only temporary to accomodate for creatures of night/horror across 5 colors evenly. Really all that's been identified is that the creatures will be defined in certain colors, however this isn't going to change the design of the cards themselves and how they tie to the colors' philosohpies.
At least I don't believe creature types are necessarily a part of the 'color pie'. That's more of a flavor thing than a design thing. Design can be based around the flavor. The colors of the creatures have more to do with that the creature is doing.
A color pie shift isn't so much moving creatures into different colors as it is letting other colors do things it doesn't usually do (blue raise dead effect) or do some things it sometimes do more often (white counterspells).
I don't understand how Witch Hunter is anything but a flavorful representation of white being 'Good'. It's not a Witch who is a Hunter. It's a Hunter who hunts witches (typically considered evil and are black).
Drop by my Helpdesk if you have any questions/concerns on the Limited forum.
Excited for M13 Limited? What do you think the format will look like? Head over to the limited forum and let us know what you think.
Every other color has had evil characters, but most of them are secretly evil. Gwafa Hazid is evil, but he is secretly evil. He has more to do with deceit and political corruption than he does with giving off an evil presence. Other colors can be outwardly evil too, like all of the phyrexian cards in SOM block.
And now, may I ask why anyone believes that werewolves and ghosts are evil? Werewolves are dangerous, sure, but so are snakes. They may be monsters, but they are not in fact evil. Ghosts have traditionally been in white, and they are not always evil. The might be mischievous, but I don't think that the ghosts will be killing innocent people and trying to gain control of the plane.
You can find me on MTGO. My username is gereffi.
Subsequently in Shadowmoor WU was seen in a negative and overly superstitious light. GW were pure, which was a bit of a given, but the important thing about that is it showed the formerly 'evil' elves redeemed.
In Ravnica each guild was shown in both a good and a harsh light. Sure, UB were the main baddies and RW the goodies, but other baddies included UR, WU, GU and BG.
In the Ice Age stories the Church of Tal (W) were the crazed zealots trying to eradicate magic / artifacts.
Each colour has shown its other sides before. I find GWGEtaBoUtEvEntimEaStHE'GoodiES'and[MANA]UB as the baddies. I'd love to have a story where U is the goodie and G the baddie, but that may be some time off...
Custom Card / Set Reviewer
When reviewing custom cards / sets, I look for (a) flavour, (b) function, and (c) cohesiveness, generally through a risk focus.
For Example, The Phyrexians may not be evil, but from the point of the story and the way it is told they are. It all just
depends.
Daretti
Ezuri
Captain Sisay (In work)
It's a guy who goes around to towns and villages who gets to select people for execution. He does this by creating fear ("witches are evil!") and justifies it by convincing people that it's for their own protection ("they'll bewitch your children!"). Look at the picture, that's no noble hunter. It's a classic example of Evil White.
White has traditionally been the color of protection, prevention and small creatures that tend to win in numbers. They are also the color of dogmatic views, close-minded beliefs, and the lawful type. In other words they excommunicate those that don’t believe, restrict ideas all under the flag of justice.
It's the mix that gives each color flavor. I could do this for each color... and i will.
Black is selfish yet can be self sacrificing in a tragic way
Blue seeks knoledge to better itself but sometimes at the cost of other or in some cases itself.
Green is intune with nature but some times at odds with progress.
Red is free spireted and un burdened though this often leads to disorder.
EDH:
:symb::symb: Marrow-Gnawer :symb::symb: - :symw::symu: Grand Arbiter Augustin IV :symw::symu: - :symb::symb: Toshiro Umezawa :symb::symb: - :symg::symg: Sachi, Daughter of Seshiro :symg::symg:
High Mage of Arcane Babblings of [The Izzet]
MafiaScum Wiki Page
No duh all colors can be good/evil.
He's saying that on the outside, from a 1st look, white is good, black is evil.
This has always been the case.
Multicolored millcards in something other than dimir.
That description sounds much more green to me.
The UB were far from harmless. The fey were ****ing scary. Dreamspoiler Witches, Oona's Gatewarden, Sower of Temptation. Etc. And then there was the short story in Shadowmoor about the Kithkin that was led astray by Faeries....
Anyway... Try reading these articles. They contain a lot of information on what MaRo thinks makes the colors tick.
(Thanks a lot to the wiki editors for preserving these)
The Great White Way
Peace, Love, and Understanding
True Blue
Striving for Perfection
In the Black
Looking Out for Number One
Seeing Red
Following Your Heart
It's Not Easy Being Green
Searching Within
Also try checking out his articles on the guild color combinations.
Thanks to Syndarion of Aeternal Studios for my sig!
No. No, it's not. Every color has good in it, every color has evil in it. This has always been the case and always will be, and it's part of what makes magic so cool. Black tends to be very dark (go figure) but that's not the same as evil. Yes, Innistrad and New Phyrexia both make a conscious effort to bring out the darkness in the other colors. This is because the last time they tried to make a "dark" set with the cards heavily weighted towards black, Torment, it was not very well-recieved by anyone who wasn't a big fan of black.
"I am confident that if anyone actually
penetrates our facades, even the most
perceptive would still be fundamentally
unprepared for the truth of House Dimir."
They're making an effort to solidly establish a dark side to each color in the past couple sets and the next few. Not just in the books, but actually making evil looking / feeling creatures in each color.
SoM block and soon ISD are going to establish evil counterparts to each color by color shifting what were previously black aligned creature types and imagery.
White wraiths and poltergeist
Blue zombies and reanimations
Green werewolves and other beasts
Red vampires.. and who knows. Maniacs? like Uncle Istvan
... still not sure about red vampires.. Vampires make perfect black. Stealing lifeforce. Red has dragons and goblins. destructive and fiery. Maybe not horror like, but definitely red. Guess red could get Oozes.