Really the only 2 exclusive mechanics anymore have been discard and counterspells.
Strangely, when you quoted me you ignored the key part of my argument: discard and counterspells are extremely similar. So similar, that they play very much like the other. Black does not have counterspells because discard fuctions very much like counterspells. Out of the other four colors, I would say that black, mechanically, needs counterspells the least.
We could justify it with flavor of course, but lets be honest, we can justify almost anything with flavor. White discard? Brainwashing. Red counterspells? Oh trickery. Green creature removal? Hmm, how about survival of the fittest or maybe a storm? Flavor must come secondary to mechanicals need, and black, because it has discard, already has much of its counterspells needs fulfilled.
On the flavor front, Black, unlike, white or blue, has a very proactive nature (hence its similarities with red), a proactive nature which results not in countering, but in outright attacking the mind. It was noted that black and blue share milling, but there is distinction that should be enforced there: blue mills off the top while black uses a 'seek and destroy' method. Haunting echoes vs. Traumatize. There is a distinction, but like discard vs. counterspells, its a subtle distinction. And, appropriately enough for the two colors most 'sneaky', its this subtlety which makes them different.
Strangely, when you quoted me you ignored the key part of my argument: discard and counterspells are extremely similar. So similar, that they play very much like the other. Black does not have counterspells because discard fuctions very much like counterspells. Out of the other four colors, I would say that black, mechanically, needs counterspells the least.
I don't disagree, but a lack of great need does not mean that black can't get counterspells. Just as it doesn't mean that blue can't get discard. I, for one, wouldn't mind if the two colors dabbled slightly in the other's mechanic. Not enough to really blur the mechanical distinctions between them, but the odd card every few years to provide unique alternatives. I think of it as a general mechanic version of MaRo's proposal to spread the creature keywords out a little.
In my head, it's not outlandish to have blue be the king of counterspells with white a decent second and black a somewhat distant third. Each color approaches counters a bit differently so I think that a proposal like this could free up design space. As has been said, discard and countering are the two big game mechanics that are still mostly boxed into a single color. Countering is just starting to branch out (a step in the right direction), but I personally hold that it could still take another step without crossing a line.
If your argument for "no black counterspells" is "black doesn't do counterspells" then you're somewhat missing the point.
My argument for "no black counterspells" is actually "black already does something similar to it (discard). I agree that magic used flavor as justification when the game first started, but I tend to play the eternal formats more and having cards/mechanics crisscross boundaries based almost entirely on point of view is irritating. But I guess that's where we have to differ.
You've also got some of your colours backwards: Red is about unthinking, reckless responses, not trickery (thats blue and slightly black). A Red counter would in my mind be something like Hesitation, but with an additional drawback while it's in play (lose 1 life a turn?). It also has redirection effects, which function similarly. And Green already has 'creature removal' themed around both the concepts you mentioned.
Well, red can do more than brute force. I can't find the quote right now, but somewhere in Rosewater's archive he describes how Red is also the fun, prankster color. You mention red redirection like shunt, well the justification for that was based on partly on the idea that "oh yeah, red likes to play pranks on people" (imo, pranks = trickery). However, notice that redirection and dark ritual mana bursts came to red partly because design was tired of constantly making nothing but burn for red. There was a real need on reds part for something else to do.
And yes, I'm aware Green has said cards, I only mentioned it to illustrate how we can justify cards with any flavor, since Green isn't usually the color of removal.
I don't disagree, but a lack of great need does not mean that black can't get counterspells. Just as it doesn't mean that blue can't get discard. I, for one, wouldn't mind if the two colors dabbled slightly in the other's mechanic. Not enough to really blur the mechanical distinctions between them, but the odd card every few years to provide unique alternatives. I think of it as a general mechanic version of MaRo's proposal to spread the creature keywords out a little.
In my head, it's not outlandish to have blue be the king of counterspells with white a decent second and black a somewhat distant third. Each color approaches counters a bit differently so I think that a proposal like this could free up design space. As has been said, discard and countering are the two big game mechanics that are still mostly boxed into a single color. Countering is just starting to branch out (a step in the right direction), but I personally hold that it could still take another step without crossing a line.
Well, frankly, my priority isn't counterspells but black's pie. I somewhat accept white counterspells, partly because it makes the most sense after blue. I'm not looking to expand black's pie, but rather better what it already has. But that's another topic I think.
Ertai's DeceptionB:symbu::symbu:
Instant
Counter target spell. For each black mana spent to play this spell, lose 1 life.
I know hybrids aren't exactly in the set atm, but I think it'd be fairly balanced as a mono black card. Counter a spell pay 3 life. and in U/B its a cancle that loses you a life. It's pays out a little life for some compatibility.
The name was random of course.
EDIT: I ahem... am just throwing ideas out there... skipped over the whole should shouldn't argument. I just like reading other peoples ideas for a black counterspell.
1. Design a new Ravnica mechanic for one of the old guilds and make a card around it.
2.Design a mono-colored card using two Ravnica mechanics that both come from the color you're using.
3. Blow up a land.
Winner is Judge Wins: 12345
Cool, someone else who wants to mix hybrid mana with non-hybrid mana.
Still, making it at 3 color'd mana really pidgeonholes the effect, and even BBB lose 3 life counter target spell would be really weak. If you have BUU Counter target spell lose 1 life, well, I remember when you made the opponent lost 3 life.
Black does not have counterspells because discard fuctions very much like counterspells. Out of the other four colors, I would say that black, mechanically, needs counterspells the least.
Black does have hard counterspells. Nether Void is the best example of it. And I don't really it think it needs counters either. It needs better discard though.
Old cards provide little help for present color pie speculation. That goes for Nether Void (not a hard counter anyway), Withering Boon, etc as well.
The only recent black counter I can remember was a planeshift - indicating that black getting counters is not completely out of the question. However, a strong argument could be made that it was mostly the "unless mechanic" that was planeshifted.
In fact, magiccards.info turns up a total of two counterspells in black, both very bad.
Black getting counters may be justifiable (almost everything is) but there is next to no precedent, no mechanical necessity, and no indication that it might happen.
We might as well start a thread about green direct damage.
Gate to Phyrexia is hardly the only black artifact hate in existence... not all of it is "old" either. Additionally, Dash Hopes is not a planeshift, colorshift, or anything else of that nature. Dash Hopes is actually a traditional card printed in the traditional manner for the set it was printed in. As such it could easily be reprinted, or have a similar cycle to itself see print in the future.
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"As the size of an explosion increases, the number of social situations it is incapable of solving approaches zero." -- Varsuvius, Order of the Stick
Black has discard, which is very close to counterspells in functionality (although significantly worse in the late game).
It doesn't need counterspells to be good. It needs to get good removal and decent creatures.
The most recent I can find is Phyrexian Tribute. My point still stands; precedents that have been obsoleted, if only very largely, are useless both in terms of prediction of and as arguments for future developments. Especially if they constitute a quite different limitation of their respective color.
By "Artifact Hate" I don't necessarily mean cards that destroy Artifacts. I could also be referring to cards that relegate Artifacts to not being as useful to their respective players as they once were. Among these the following are all in this category:
(the two cards already mentioned) Artifact Possession Curse Artifact Shattered Dreams (discard that only targets Artifacts, and is in fact the newest of the cards as far as I can tell). Warp Artifact (printed in Fifth Edition, as such is much newer than any of the others with the exception of Shattered Dreams).
In otherwords Artifact disruption is in fact still a part of the Color Pie of what Black is capable of doing, if only in a small part, as is indicated by Shattered Dreams.
My bad, although this is an issue quite separate from the one above.
I'd still argue that it was red's "unless" mechanic that was color-shifted (I'm quite sure of having read something to that effect on the mothership).
Browbeating someone seems more red than black to me (especially at instant speed), although I guess one could argue blackmailing works just as well. Of course, those two justifications are slippery slopes in that literally anything can be justified by them. (Also, in the past colors were occasionally allowed to do weirdly off-color stuff if they really, really sucked at it.) As such, I wouldn't consider Dash Hopes an indication of counterspells being partly in black's domain as I would consider Breaking Point an indication of Wrath effects being partly red.
Except Wrath effects are partly red... at least according to Jokulhaups and Obliterate... In any case, yes, there is a red card that does almost exactly the same thing as Dash Hopes. However the differences between this card, and Dash Hopes are enough to make them different cards entirely. Not to mention that you can tell just by looking at Dash Hopes that it is not a Color Shifted Card. I mean do I seriously need to explain a second time in a thread about the color black, what the difference between a Color Shifted Card, and a card that simply borrows aspects of another card but isn't a copy of that card happens to be?
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"As the size of an explosion increases, the number of social situations it is incapable of solving approaches zero." -- Varsuvius, Order of the Stick
Norman Peopled: That isn't good enough for him. If the card wasn't litterally a color shifted with everything exactly the same, then there is no connection for him. If someone where to point out the connection between Timbermare and Thundermare, he wouldn't see it or he would claim his monitor can't let him see it
Honestly, it's like debating that guy who insist on debunking people who say "strictly better". It's not worth your time nor effort. If he wants to claim that the punisher mechanic being moved from one color to another wasn't any sort of shift, let him.
It's not pivotal to my point, anyway. I could've just as easily said that red doesn't do card draw (Browbeat), or milling (Book Burning). Dash Hopes doesn't mean counters should be in black.
For which I would have to agree. I personally am not fond of the idea of black getting counterspells, unless they are heavily modified to fit within the flavor of Black. And so far, only one of the proposed counterspells, fits the requirements I have for what a heavily modified black flavor counterspell would look like. And it was proposed back on the first or second page or something like that.
I was under the impression the mechanic was shifted and did mention that rather clearly in my last post (can't find the article though).
Even if not, the use of an unless wording is merely a way to design a card, not a reason to design it and thus completely irrelevant to the topic. The question, after all, is not if a way could be found to make counters in black flavorful but if there is a good reason to do so.
Unfortunately I would have to see something in print from Wizards themselves before I would believe that anything printed on Dash Hopes is at all shifted. The card itself does not fit the appearance of Color Shifted cards. It might be that the card is "rules / mechanic shifted", or something along those lines, but beyond that, the card is not a color shifted card. I mean compare the appearance of Damnation to Dash Hopes for the reason I say that Dash Hopes is not Color Shifted. Damnation appears the way that a Color Shifted Card is supposed to look like. Dash Hopes does not.
And again, I agree with you, there is as far as I know beyond a very select limited number of cards, no good reason to think that Black will ever get Counterspells, or even Artifact hate any time in the imediate future (well with the possible exception of if we do in fact revisit Mirrodin Block).
@ Tzar: again, I will reiterate this. Although Timbermare and Thundermare are twins, just like Akroma, Angel of Wrath and Akroma, Angel of Fury are twins, they are not in point of fact the same card, and thus in point of fact not color shifted. According to the flavor of Color Shift, a color shifted card is for all intents and purposes the same spell as the original. The only difference is that it is from a parellel universe where that spell was cast by a mage of a different color. Meanwhile, Akroma, Angel of Fury for example, is an entirely different Akroma, from an entirely different universe. The original Akroma, and the new Akroma have in point of fact, absolutely nothing in common other than their names. If I recrecall correctly, the new Akroma wasn't even made the same way as the original Akroma was. The same concept is probably true of Dash Hopes, Timbermare, and Rebuff the Wicked.
So they are twins that don't have anything in common? I still don't quite follow that but fine you are right. They arn't color-shifted. It's something else. Now I kindly ask that you stop posting off topic. Honestly what does black having artifact hate have to do with the possibility of black counterspells?
So they are twins that don't have anything in common? I still don't quite follow that but fine you are right. They arn't color-shifted. It's something else. Now I kindly ask that you stop posting off topic. Honestly what does black having artifact hate have to do with the possibility of black counterspells?
nothing... I already conceeded that I wouldn't discuss that point anymore. I was however on topic, at least somewhat, by explaining why Dash Hopes is not a color shift, and as such why it is at least somewhat feasible to believe that it would be reprinted.
Cards that are not color shifted from Planar Chaos, and which are spells, are simply spells which could very likely have originated in an alternate universe, but which have no true parrallel in our universe... due to whatever reasons. However due to the planar rifts that existed at the time, they found their way into our world, and as such it is possible that they could be cast by a mage from our world. Conversely, Color Shifted cards are basically spells that occured in a parrallel universe, most likely stayed in that parrallel universe yet have a parrallel here in our universe (i.e. the original spell). So even if a color shifted spell made it into our universe (as is the case with Prodigal Pyromancer) the odds of another one making it into our universe are quite slim.
In short, normal spells from planar chaos, can in all likelyhood make it in our world. Color Shifts not so much.
On a side note, I was also trying to agree with someone that I don't see it as feesible for counterspells (or even Artifact destruction) to be reprinted in Black at all, unless it is under some very specific situations.
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"As the size of an explosion increases, the number of social situations it is incapable of solving approaches zero." -- Varsuvius, Order of the Stick
I was under the impression the mechanic was shifted and did mention that rather clearly in my last post (can't find the article though).
Even if not, the use of an unless wording is merely a way to design a card, not a reason to design it and thus completely irrelevant to the topic. The question, after all, is not if a way could be found to make counters in black flavorful but if there is a good reason to do so.
An argument (or premise) could be, though, that if the flavour is there, and is good, then this either suggests, or means ipso facto, that there is a good reason to do it.
I tend to speak with such a premise. If counters have a good reason to be in black, it's because they should be there and which is since the flavour says they are supposed to be there.
The question for me then becomes if the flavour says they are supposed to be there.
And I'm still on the same stance: Counters stop an action. They take some mana and then say this magic does not happen. They work by having some deck leave mana on a certain turn, and thwart something if the opponent walks into it. This does not correspond to the kind of behaviour that Black would do. It also has difficulty elegantly respecting the kinds of things Black magic isn't supposed to work on (enchantments, etc.). Black kills your d00ds, and everything else, it tries to beat you by being stronger, by having more powerful stuff ('powerful' in an abstracted sense - probably not muscle). It can take whatever your spells can dish out, and still win - or it can't. That is the law of the strong and the weak.
A conditional counter is a different matter, though. The following thought train runs through me: Black has discard. These attack spells for a disproportionate cost to their potential power level. But of course, what is going on here is the discard is attacking the opponent in a weak spot - his mind (/ whatever metaphor you want for a mage's "holdings"). Black exploits weakness and can get these powers before they are actually spells. It can attack the weaknesses of the mortal spirit.
But then I think, well, at the precise moment a mage is casting a spell, it's still just energy. It isn't the full thing that it is yet. So maybe it's vulnerable.
But then something much more striking occurs to me. The mage is leaving himself open in the act of casting it. He is diverting his attention. He is putting something of himself into this action, and in this moment, Black magic should be able to strike if discard does, but maybe in a different sense: it wouldn't be the spell you are after, it would be the player, still. You seize on his moment of vulnerability and force him to lose something, make a hard choice.
So perhaps punisher counterspells could be designed, but with the key property that they could be focused on the other effect. The caster can forfeit his spell to save the Black mage's true aim, but Black hopes he won't. The spell is not Dash Hopes unless you endure pain. It's endure pain unless you forget about this spell.
The point does remain that integrating counters with discard is tough. Discard has a niche with the important properties being that it can be powerful disruption, but you are the only one spending mana. A counterspell always has the plus of acting when the opponent is tapped (partly tapped), and I do see that this would make all such punisher counters very good if this were not taken into account in comparison to Black's normal way to get cards lost.
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Well, Planar Chaos was intended to only show things that are in the color pie. Infact, we've seen examples of many of the things the set showed in even more recent sets. Of course, the mantle/crust that the set was displaying were promised to show up a minimum of 3 times. There's only 1 black counterspell in the set. That means that punisher was the mechanic being shown. (red also got a punisher counter called Molten Influence in Odyssey)That doesn't mean counters are totally outside of black, though.
Another good way to do a black counterspell is to steal Mages' Contest. Black tends to have a card pretty much every block that involves people paying life for something.
Bored, so here's some ideas for a black counterspell that I could see being legitimately printed. Black has been getting the shaft for awhile now, and having something to do without Damnation in Standard would be interesting I think.
My favorite:
Wretched Decision 1BB
Instant
Counter target spell unless its controller sacrifices a creature.
So more ideas...
Unsatisfying Choice 2:symb::symb:
Instant
As an additional cost to play ~, sacrifice creatures equal to the converted mana cost of target spell. If you do, counter that spell.
Indifference
:symb::symb:
Instant
Play ~ only if you control two or more creatures.
Counter target spell. Sacrifice all creatures you control.
Bloodletting
:symb::symb::symb:
Instant
Counter target spell. That spell's controller may draw two cards and lose two life.
Innocence Lost 2:symb::symb:
Instant
Counter target spell. Lose half your life, rounded up.
Unsuspecting Demise
:symb::symb::symb:
Instant
Counter target spell if you control at least five creature cards in your graveyard.
Bored, so here's some ideas for a black counterspell that I could see being legitimately printed. Black has been getting the shaft for awhile now, and having something to do without Damnation in Standard would be interesting I think.
My favorite:
Wretched Decision 1BB
Instant
Counter target spell unless its controller sacrifices a creature.
Ah, thank you. This would be an example of the kind of counter that Black should not get. For this spell can force the guy to lose his spell, if he doesn't have the creature - when really, the only thing that makes sense here is if Black is going after the creature and you can choose to do something to make it not so easy. As in, if you don't control a creature, this shouldn't be able to make you worry about one.
This spell is working by saying "I'm attacking you now. Die a little." But the counter should be 'I will take this from you unless you forget about that.' (that = spell, this = something else).
And I'm saying this is different from Cruel Edict (where the message certainly is "I'm assailing you. Give up some of your precious lifeblood."), because a spell as it is being cast is just resembling its casters personal power enough, that Black can't touch it. Black can't fight power. It fights weakness.
So more ideas...
Unsatisfying Choice 2:symb::symb:
Instant
As an additional cost to play ~, sacrifice creatures equal to the converted mana cost of target spell. If you do, counter that spell.
Lawl. Well, it seems horribad, but I guess it works. You're giving up equal if not greater energy... and in life to mana. Black knows how to make blood sell.
Indifference
:symb::symb:
Instant
Play ~ only if you control two or more creatures.
Counter target spell. Sacrifice all creatures you control.
Ehhhh.... this worries me somehow. Yeah... it seems reckless in a way unlike Black. Like... it's so underpowered it's out of flavour.
Bloodletting
:symb::symb::symb:
Instant
Counter target spell. That spell's controller may draw two cards and lose two life.
Hmm... what does 'draw and lose life' mean? I don't know if you can 'offer' it.
Cool idea, so I have to think about it.
Innocence Lost 2:symb::symb:
Instant
Counter target spell. Lose half your life, rounded up.
Yukyukyuk. So bad except for if it makes the last piece in some permission Black deck. Since it does target anything, is unconditional, and can always be paid with four mana.
But again, I worry if it's in pie. This seems to be rewarding Black for being more dead. It's saying somehow that half your well-being is 'worth' the ability to stop something, anything you worry about.
This looks like a cool White-Black card. It's reminiscent of the early days of gold, but I think it would really work out in that colour. Rewarding weakness, the fact that it seems to be making an offering with a specific mathematical property as though to a higher (or nether) power. . . the part where it does absolutely stop something for some cost as though making a final stand...
Mortal Offering 1WB
Instant
Counter target spell. You lose half your life, rounded up.
Rounded down would be really fun.
Unsuspecting Demise
:symb::symb::symb:
Instant
Counter target spell if you control at least five creature cards in your graveyard.
Unsuspecting Demise
:symb::symb::symb:
Instant
Counter target spell if there are five or more creature cards in your graveyard.
The graveyard is a resource, but you can do little with just having things there. Having things there can only prove time has elapsed, or people are dead, or memories have been sacrificed (you know... proving you did horrid things to yourself, for some ritual).
I'm not seeing how these spirits in the grave are supposed to power a spell that Black otherwise could not get (assuming).
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but I also see horseshoes point.. perhaps more like this?
BBB5
you may remove any number of cards from your graveyard from the game if you do reduce the casting cost of (cardname) by 1 for each card removed in this mannor.
Coutner target spell.
but I also see horseshoes point.. perhaps more like this?
BBB5
you may remove any number of cards from your graveyard from the game if you do reduce the casting cost of (cardname) by 1 for each card removed in this mannor.
Coutner target spell.
in otherwords, a Delve Counterspell that is still a hard counter, and thus outside of the flavor pie of Black???
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"As the size of an explosion increases, the number of social situations it is incapable of solving approaches zero." -- Varsuvius, Order of the Stick
i honestly don't think black needs counter spells to be good but if it did it would be awesome but what magic needs is one colorless counter spell and only one
Infraction for necroing a two-and-a-half-year-old thread.
Strangely, when you quoted me you ignored the key part of my argument: discard and counterspells are extremely similar. So similar, that they play very much like the other. Black does not have counterspells because discard fuctions very much like counterspells. Out of the other four colors, I would say that black, mechanically, needs counterspells the least.
We could justify it with flavor of course, but lets be honest, we can justify almost anything with flavor. White discard? Brainwashing. Red counterspells? Oh trickery. Green creature removal? Hmm, how about survival of the fittest or maybe a storm? Flavor must come secondary to mechanicals need, and black, because it has discard, already has much of its counterspells needs fulfilled.
On the flavor front, Black, unlike, white or blue, has a very proactive nature (hence its similarities with red), a proactive nature which results not in countering, but in outright attacking the mind. It was noted that black and blue share milling, but there is distinction that should be enforced there: blue mills off the top while black uses a 'seek and destroy' method. Haunting echoes vs. Traumatize. There is a distinction, but like discard vs. counterspells, its a subtle distinction. And, appropriately enough for the two colors most 'sneaky', its this subtlety which makes them different.
I don't disagree, but a lack of great need does not mean that black can't get counterspells. Just as it doesn't mean that blue can't get discard. I, for one, wouldn't mind if the two colors dabbled slightly in the other's mechanic. Not enough to really blur the mechanical distinctions between them, but the odd card every few years to provide unique alternatives. I think of it as a general mechanic version of MaRo's proposal to spread the creature keywords out a little.
In my head, it's not outlandish to have blue be the king of counterspells with white a decent second and black a somewhat distant third. Each color approaches counters a bit differently so I think that a proposal like this could free up design space. As has been said, discard and countering are the two big game mechanics that are still mostly boxed into a single color. Countering is just starting to branch out (a step in the right direction), but I personally hold that it could still take another step without crossing a line.
Archatmos
Excellion
Fracture: Israfiel (WBR), Wujal (URG), Valedon (GUB), Amduat (BGW), Paladris (RWU)
Collision (Set Two of the Fracture Block)
Quest for the Forsaken (Set Two of the Excellion Block)
Katingal: Plane of Chains
My argument for "no black counterspells" is actually "black already does something similar to it (discard). I agree that magic used flavor as justification when the game first started, but I tend to play the eternal formats more and having cards/mechanics crisscross boundaries based almost entirely on point of view is irritating. But I guess that's where we have to differ.
Well, red can do more than brute force. I can't find the quote right now, but somewhere in Rosewater's archive he describes how Red is also the fun, prankster color. You mention red redirection like shunt, well the justification for that was based on partly on the idea that "oh yeah, red likes to play pranks on people" (imo, pranks = trickery). However, notice that redirection and dark ritual mana bursts came to red partly because design was tired of constantly making nothing but burn for red. There was a real need on reds part for something else to do.
And yes, I'm aware Green has said cards, I only mentioned it to illustrate how we can justify cards with any flavor, since Green isn't usually the color of removal.
Well, frankly, my priority isn't counterspells but black's pie. I somewhat accept white counterspells, partly because it makes the most sense after blue. I'm not looking to expand black's pie, but rather better what it already has. But that's another topic I think.
Ertai's Deception B:symbu::symbu:
Instant
Counter target spell. For each black mana spent to play this spell, lose 1 life.
I know hybrids aren't exactly in the set atm, but I think it'd be fairly balanced as a mono black card. Counter a spell pay 3 life. and in U/B its a cancle that loses you a life. It's pays out a little life for some compatibility.
The name was random of course.
EDIT: I ahem... am just throwing ideas out there... skipped over the whole should shouldn't argument. I just like reading other peoples ideas for a black counterspell.
^ Done by ME! (My first banner)
1. Design a new Ravnica mechanic for one of the old guilds and make a card around it.
2.Design a mono-colored card using two Ravnica mechanics that both come from the color you're using.
3. Blow up a land.
Winner is Judge Wins:
1 2 3 4 5
Still, making it at 3 color'd mana really pidgeonholes the effect, and even BBB lose 3 life counter target spell would be really weak. If you have BUU Counter target spell lose 1 life, well, I remember when you made the opponent lost 3 life.
BUG Dredge BUG]
WUBRG Storm WUBRG
UBR FaerieStalker UBR
EDH
Sygg, River Cutthroat (1vs1)
Maga, Traitor to Mortals (multiplayer)
three words: Gate to Phyrexia
When combo'ed with Bitterblossom, this one card is the single best targeted Artifact Removal Spell in the game....
Sorry, a bit off topic, but this stuck out to me, and I wanted to respond to it...
Gate to Phyrexia is hardly the only black artifact hate in existence... not all of it is "old" either. Additionally, Dash Hopes is not a planeshift, colorshift, or anything else of that nature. Dash Hopes is actually a traditional card printed in the traditional manner for the set it was printed in. As such it could easily be reprinted, or have a similar cycle to itself see print in the future.
It doesn't need counterspells to be good. It needs to get good removal and decent creatures.
By "Artifact Hate" I don't necessarily mean cards that destroy Artifacts. I could also be referring to cards that relegate Artifacts to not being as useful to their respective players as they once were. Among these the following are all in this category:
(the two cards already mentioned)
Artifact Possession
Curse Artifact
Shattered Dreams (discard that only targets Artifacts, and is in fact the newest of the cards as far as I can tell).
Warp Artifact (printed in Fifth Edition, as such is much newer than any of the others with the exception of Shattered Dreams).
In otherwords Artifact disruption is in fact still a part of the Color Pie of what Black is capable of doing, if only in a small part, as is indicated by Shattered Dreams.
Except Wrath effects are partly red... at least according to Jokulhaups and Obliterate... In any case, yes, there is a red card that does almost exactly the same thing as Dash Hopes. However the differences between this card, and Dash Hopes are enough to make them different cards entirely. Not to mention that you can tell just by looking at Dash Hopes that it is not a Color Shifted Card. I mean do I seriously need to explain a second time in a thread about the color black, what the difference between a Color Shifted Card, and a card that simply borrows aspects of another card but isn't a copy of that card happens to be?
Honestly, it's like debating that guy who insist on debunking people who say "strictly better". It's not worth your time nor effort. If he wants to claim that the punisher mechanic being moved from one color to another wasn't any sort of shift, let him.
For which I would have to agree. I personally am not fond of the idea of black getting counterspells, unless they are heavily modified to fit within the flavor of Black. And so far, only one of the proposed counterspells, fits the requirements I have for what a heavily modified black flavor counterspell would look like. And it was proposed back on the first or second page or something like that.
Unfortunately I would have to see something in print from Wizards themselves before I would believe that anything printed on Dash Hopes is at all shifted. The card itself does not fit the appearance of Color Shifted cards. It might be that the card is "rules / mechanic shifted", or something along those lines, but beyond that, the card is not a color shifted card. I mean compare the appearance of Damnation to Dash Hopes for the reason I say that Dash Hopes is not Color Shifted. Damnation appears the way that a Color Shifted Card is supposed to look like. Dash Hopes does not.
And again, I agree with you, there is as far as I know beyond a very select limited number of cards, no good reason to think that Black will ever get Counterspells, or even Artifact hate any time in the imediate future (well with the possible exception of if we do in fact revisit Mirrodin Block).
@ Tzar: again, I will reiterate this. Although Timbermare and Thundermare are twins, just like Akroma, Angel of Wrath and Akroma, Angel of Fury are twins, they are not in point of fact the same card, and thus in point of fact not color shifted. According to the flavor of Color Shift, a color shifted card is for all intents and purposes the same spell as the original. The only difference is that it is from a parellel universe where that spell was cast by a mage of a different color. Meanwhile, Akroma, Angel of Fury for example, is an entirely different Akroma, from an entirely different universe. The original Akroma, and the new Akroma have in point of fact, absolutely nothing in common other than their names. If I recrecall correctly, the new Akroma wasn't even made the same way as the original Akroma was. The same concept is probably true of Dash Hopes, Timbermare, and Rebuff the Wicked.
nothing... I already conceeded that I wouldn't discuss that point anymore. I was however on topic, at least somewhat, by explaining why Dash Hopes is not a color shift, and as such why it is at least somewhat feasible to believe that it would be reprinted.
Cards that are not color shifted from Planar Chaos, and which are spells, are simply spells which could very likely have originated in an alternate universe, but which have no true parrallel in our universe... due to whatever reasons. However due to the planar rifts that existed at the time, they found their way into our world, and as such it is possible that they could be cast by a mage from our world. Conversely, Color Shifted cards are basically spells that occured in a parrallel universe, most likely stayed in that parrallel universe yet have a parrallel here in our universe (i.e. the original spell). So even if a color shifted spell made it into our universe (as is the case with Prodigal Pyromancer) the odds of another one making it into our universe are quite slim.
In short, normal spells from planar chaos, can in all likelyhood make it in our world. Color Shifts not so much.
On a side note, I was also trying to agree with someone that I don't see it as feesible for counterspells (or even Artifact destruction) to be reprinted in Black at all, unless it is under some very specific situations.
An argument (or premise) could be, though, that if the flavour is there, and is good, then this either suggests, or means ipso facto, that there is a good reason to do it.
I tend to speak with such a premise. If counters have a good reason to be in black, it's because they should be there and which is since the flavour says they are supposed to be there.
The question for me then becomes if the flavour says they are supposed to be there.
And I'm still on the same stance: Counters stop an action. They take some mana and then say this magic does not happen. They work by having some deck leave mana on a certain turn, and thwart something if the opponent walks into it. This does not correspond to the kind of behaviour that Black would do. It also has difficulty elegantly respecting the kinds of things Black magic isn't supposed to work on (enchantments, etc.). Black kills your d00ds, and everything else, it tries to beat you by being stronger, by having more powerful stuff ('powerful' in an abstracted sense - probably not muscle). It can take whatever your spells can dish out, and still win - or it can't. That is the law of the strong and the weak.
A conditional counter is a different matter, though. The following thought train runs through me: Black has discard. These attack spells for a disproportionate cost to their potential power level. But of course, what is going on here is the discard is attacking the opponent in a weak spot - his mind (/ whatever metaphor you want for a mage's "holdings"). Black exploits weakness and can get these powers before they are actually spells. It can attack the weaknesses of the mortal spirit.
But then I think, well, at the precise moment a mage is casting a spell, it's still just energy. It isn't the full thing that it is yet. So maybe it's vulnerable.
But then something much more striking occurs to me. The mage is leaving himself open in the act of casting it. He is diverting his attention. He is putting something of himself into this action, and in this moment, Black magic should be able to strike if discard does, but maybe in a different sense: it wouldn't be the spell you are after, it would be the player, still. You seize on his moment of vulnerability and force him to lose something, make a hard choice.
So perhaps punisher counterspells could be designed, but with the key property that they could be focused on the other effect. The caster can forfeit his spell to save the Black mage's true aim, but Black hopes he won't. The spell is not Dash Hopes unless you endure pain. It's endure pain unless you forget about this spell.
The point does remain that integrating counters with discard is tough. Discard has a niche with the important properties being that it can be powerful disruption, but you are the only one spending mana. A counterspell always has the plus of acting when the opponent is tapped (partly tapped), and I do see that this would make all such punisher counters very good if this were not taken into account in comparison to Black's normal way to get cards lost.
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Another good way to do a black counterspell is to steal Mages' Contest. Black tends to have a card pretty much every block that involves people paying life for something.
My favorite:
Wretched Decision
1BB
Instant
Counter target spell unless its controller sacrifices a creature.
So more ideas...
Unsatisfying Choice
2:symb::symb:
Instant
As an additional cost to play ~, sacrifice creatures equal to the converted mana cost of target spell. If you do, counter that spell.
Indifference
:symb::symb:
Instant
Play ~ only if you control two or more creatures.
Counter target spell. Sacrifice all creatures you control.
Bloodletting
:symb::symb::symb:
Instant
Counter target spell. That spell's controller may draw two cards and lose two life.
Innocence Lost
2:symb::symb:
Instant
Counter target spell. Lose half your life, rounded up.
Unsuspecting Demise
:symb::symb::symb:
Instant
Counter target spell if you control at least five creature cards in your graveyard.
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the wording on this doesn't make sense.
Ah, thank you. This would be an example of the kind of counter that Black should not get. For this spell can force the guy to lose his spell, if he doesn't have the creature - when really, the only thing that makes sense here is if Black is going after the creature and you can choose to do something to make it not so easy. As in, if you don't control a creature, this shouldn't be able to make you worry about one.
This spell is working by saying "I'm attacking you now. Die a little." But the counter should be 'I will take this from you unless you forget about that.' (that = spell, this = something else).
And I'm saying this is different from Cruel Edict (where the message certainly is "I'm assailing you. Give up some of your precious lifeblood."), because a spell as it is being cast is just resembling its casters personal power enough, that Black can't touch it. Black can't fight power. It fights weakness.
Lawl. Well, it seems horribad, but I guess it works. You're giving up equal if not greater energy... and in life to mana. Black knows how to make blood sell.
Ehhhh.... this worries me somehow. Yeah... it seems reckless in a way unlike Black. Like... it's so underpowered it's out of flavour.
Bloodletting
:symb::symb::symb:
Instant
Counter target spell. That spell's controller may draw two cards and lose two life.
Hmm... what does 'draw and lose life' mean? I don't know if you can 'offer' it.
Cool idea, so I have to think about it.
Innocence Lost
2:symb::symb:
Instant
Counter target spell. Lose half your life, rounded up.
Yukyukyuk. So bad except for if it makes the last piece in some permission Black deck. Since it does target anything, is unconditional, and can always be paid with four mana.
But again, I worry if it's in pie. This seems to be rewarding Black for being more dead. It's saying somehow that half your well-being is 'worth' the ability to stop something, anything you worry about.
This looks like a cool White-Black card. It's reminiscent of the early days of gold, but I think it would really work out in that colour. Rewarding weakness, the fact that it seems to be making an offering with a specific mathematical property as though to a higher (or nether) power. . . the part where it does absolutely stop something for some cost as though making a final stand...
Mortal Offering 1WB
Instant
Counter target spell. You lose half your life, rounded up.
Rounded down would be really fun.
Unsuspecting Demise
:symb::symb::symb:
Instant
Counter target spell if there are five or more creature cards in your graveyard.
The graveyard is a resource, but you can do little with just having things there. Having things there can only prove time has elapsed, or people are dead, or memories have been sacrificed (you know... proving you did horrid things to yourself, for some ritual).
I'm not seeing how these spirits in the grave are supposed to power a spell that Black otherwise could not get (assuming).
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maybe something like this?
but I also see horseshoes point.. perhaps more like this?
BBB5
you may remove any number of cards from your graveyard from the game if you do reduce the casting cost of (cardname) by 1 for each card removed in this mannor.
Coutner target spell.
in otherwords, a Delve Counterspell that is still a hard counter, and thus outside of the flavor pie of Black???
Honestly, that seems way too good. There needs to be a steeper like loss there, IMO.
your probly right it just popped into my head maybe 5 like dash hopes.
Infraction for necroing a two-and-a-half-year-old thread.