Planar Chaos gave white a couple counter spells that where color shifted and a limited new one and it gave black a punisher counter spell that was also sort of color shifted. If I remember right there where articles justifying both colors getting counterspells on their own as long as the white ones where only temporary and the black ones where punisher style.
My question is, now that white is getting a more expensive Memory Lapse should black be getting some punisher style counter spells. I would say yes it should. Sure Dash Hopes by itself wasn't good and it really didn't interact with any of the other punisher black spells they printed, but if they where to print 2 or 3 more simular black counter spells, then the repetative effects might be enough to base a deck around.
For example, if they where to reprint Dash Hopes along with a one black mana Dim Hopes that would cost 3 life to counter and a three black mana Destroy Hopes that would cost 7 life to counter, then the shear amount of life loss that you could cause through these counter spells would make opponents abit more weary about losing life to any one of them.
And it doesn't have to be life loss all the time either. You can work in other black abilities into their counter spells. How about black be given a counter spell that can be countered if an opponent sacrifices a land, or sacrifices a creature or two, or who has to discard a random card from their hand?
Don't get me wrong, I'm not that permission deck fanboi by any stretch of the imagiation. In fact, I'm rather leary of them. But that said, I wouldn't mind counterspells being pushed abit, if they where spread out over 3 colors instead of all of them being in one.
What do you guys think of the idea of black getting counterspells as well as white?
Pre-emptive Spike B
Instant
As an additional cost to play ~, sacrifice a creature. Counter target creature spell.
That would be a sick addition to Faries or B/W Token deck. Maybe too good. B/G elves could use it as well, sacrifice your mana dork or brid to counter a wrath or cuel ultimatium?
EDH/Commander is a social format, right? So why don't people use their social skills to discuss what they like and don't like, instead of adopting a list with 60+ banned cards?
Disrupting Chant BB
Instant (Rare)
Counter target spell unless its controller discards two cards.
Maybe a little too strong?
Maybe a little too weak.
It would suck in late game. At best, it's just a "target opponent discards to cards" at Instant speed. While that's not bad by itself, it'll be somehow worse than Dash Hopes, which I think is an awesome card and I use it all the time.:D
EDIT: And it's RARE?! Should be uncommon, at most.
imo, black, can get counterspell, but a black mage has to pay hard. As always black gets some aspects of diff. colors, but pay it mostly with life and additional casing costs
Agreed. They should have to go the Abjure way. Pay hard, counter hard.
Disrupting Chant BB
Instant (Rare)
Counter target spell unless its controller discards two cards.
Maybe a little too strong?
This looks most like what I've envisioned, though I prefer a steeper cost for both players.
Tourach's Denial 1BB (maybe even straight triple black)
Instant (uncommon)
Counter target spell unless it's controller discards 2 cards at random from his or her hand.
If a spell is countered this way, it's controller may discard a card at random to put the card into his or her hand instead into his or her graveyard.
Tourach's Denial 1BB (maybe even straight triple black)
Instant (uncommon)
Counter target spell unless it's controller discards 2 cards at random from his or her hand.
If a spell is countered this way, it's controller may discard a card at random to put the card into his or her hand instead into his or her graveyard.
Now, THAT's more like it! I agree, it should be BBB to make it more hard, otherwise it's kinda broken.:-/
Its kinda broken? Strictly worse Cancel in different color is kinda broken? And changing one generic mana to colored one makes it not so kinda broken?
Well anyway, I agree that Dash Hopes concept should be explored a bit. But Black doesnt seem to be the color that gives choices. Im with the Pay hard, counter hard opinion.
As an additional cost to play -, sacrifice a creature seems a reasonably black drawback.
I think the 1BB vs. BBB argument is one that can only really be settled with playtesting.
Also, I think this card is pretty far from broken at 3. It's a conditional counter that, on important aggressive spells, will play mostly like Memory Lapse. On vital answers, more like Tourach's Chant. Point is, it gives your opponent options, the inherent weakness of all punisher cards.
Essentially, I think this is 2nd tier counter magic (in standard; eternally, more like 4th or 5th), much like Lapse of Certainty. If they wanted to push off-color counters, they could print it at BB.
What do you guys think of the idea of black getting counterspells as well as white?
I couldn't get on board with it. I just did not feel like it was a black spell. The words 'counter' existed there, but to believe it I had to swallow "oh it's punisher..." and be content. I wasn't.
Counterspells exist in the part of Blue which is closer to White, Logic. If they are White, they are part of Order. Symmetries do exist in the Pie in uncontroversial cases, and if you believe there's something to that, it rules out counters being in Black.
Black gets to say what goes. Black can take action and change things how it wants. But it doesn't stop things. Anything you do, it can try to undo, with destruction, or killing. But I don't think it is supposed to control magic.
It doesn't play nice with counters anyway. Recall particularly recent articles from MaRo. Blue waits for things to happen. Blue tries to solve the problem exactly but Black just wants it over with. Counters have a pensiveness, a reactiveness, and a precision-focus that is at odds with Black's identity.
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I couldn't get on board with it. I just did not feel like it was a black spell. The words 'counter' existed there, but to believe it I had to swallow "oh it's punisher..." and be content. I wasn't.
Counterspells exist in the part of Blue which is closer to White, Logic. If they are White, they are part of Order. Symmetries do exist in the Pie in uncontroversial cases, and if you believe there's something to that, it rules out counters being in Black.
Black gets to say what goes. Black can take action and change things how it wants. But it doesn't stop things. Anything you do, it can try to undo, with destruction, or killing. But I don't think it is supposed to control magic.
It doesn't play nice with counters anyway. Recall particularly recent articles from MaRo. Blue waits for things to happen. Blue tries to solve the problem exactly but Black just wants it over with. Counters have a pensiveness, a reactiveness, and a precision-focus that is at odds with Black's identity.
QFT, even though I'm a die hard black mage.
In addition, to the flavor argument against black counterspells, I'll supply mechanical reasons: Black already has discard, which if you think about them, are usually just preemptive coutnerspells. Functionally, black is already attacking cards before they hit play, just in a much more aggressive fashion than blue.
White could have counterspells (I don't like them anymore than black counterspells) because of its reactive nature but black does not because it already has discard.
Also, a major weakness of discard, and since discard is by and large a black ability, a major weakness of black is that it can't deal with cards that are just drawn and played. For creatures this is alright, since black has removal by the fist full, but artifacts and enchantments can still sneak past discard spells if a player just draws and plays them (assuming discard is not an instant).
I feel that this is a crucial weakness of black that should be maintained, since the most efficient black hosers tend to be enchantments (compost, karma, etc.) White with counterspells, while a stretch, isn't as big a deal since white can already handle cards of almost any permanent type.
A sufficient weakness for white should be that the color of narrow mindess can't draw cards. I would much rather see more black draw than black counterspells since its 1. already in black's pie, 2. would help distinguish black control from white control.
Letting all three control colors (blue, white, black) have counterspells would lessen the major differences between the three colors.
I really would like to see other colors get counters. In my mind, it doesn't make a lot of sense why blue gets the universal removal while everyone else is left in the dust. Green can't kill creatures, red can't kill enchantments, black can't kill anything but creatures (but it's really good at that), blue can't kill lands, and white can't kill lands.
In my mind, open counterspells should never be printed. I love Negate; Remove Soul really should be black. Why does blue get removal for everything? The only thing it can't do well is mass removal, but it doesn't have to if it gets to draw cards.
I think it's time for black to get the creature counters and white to get something (apparently it's becoming the tempo color with Excommunicate, the new Lapse, and to a lesser extent, Oblivion Ring - I would really love for this to continue). Blue should be some threats and some answers; it shouldn't have all the answers like it always had. Other than that, blue's fine. There's just something to be said about not getting to play Magic. Keep Magic proactive and not reactive.
Counters don't mean much when the control deck is being swarmed with spells. Counters also don't handle cards already in play. Blue has bounce, but that's not exactly good... Also keep in mind that you're assuming a deck is counter heavy.
As a blue player, I like how blue can be reactive (interactive). There's nothing wrong with that.
Counters don't mean much when the control deck is being swarmed with spells. Counters also don't handle cards already in play. Blue has bounce, but that's not exactly good... Also keep in mind that you're assuming a deck is counter heavy.
As a blue player, I like how blue can be reactive (interactive). There's nothing wrong with that.
Yeah, I suppose so. I myself tend to play control decks; I would just prefer more stuff like Negate in blue with the option of having stuff more like Oblivion Ring. Blue just always seems too good, but I don't want them to print worse blue cards.
I have to say black getting counterspells should be hard life maybe something like this
B (maybe BB?)
instant
Lose half your life rounded up
Counter target spell.
I think the focus of this wasnt the drawback, but what the counter is able to target in different colours.
To the OP: I agree with this in some regard, although because counters can only be used when the spell is on the stack, they can be compared to other removal which kills anything that came into play this turn, which, to the best of my knowledge, is not the best mode of removal. The 'counter problem' is only really a problem when coupled with tempo which will limit the number of spells the blue player has to deal with with counters.
I just can't see black getting counterspells. First of all, permission is one of the most detested abilities in magic, up there with land destruction.
Second, the only reason white is getting a bit is it fits white's traditional "tax" theme, and white has really been in need of a boost for the past 5 years or so.
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right now WotC as Nicol Bolas said, is making up for the 5 years of wite being not-so-good. i just wish that black had better life-gain.... or zombies w/ lifelink.
I don't think that black should get counterspells as that would give them an answer to problem enchantments. If you look at the current color pie especially in ext. Black is one of the stronger and possibly the strongest color. It's got card draw in Phyrexian Arena and Dark Confidant. Prime removal with cards like Smother and Damnation. Overall controlling cards like Death Cloud... Adding in good countermagic would be way over the top.
Letting all three control colors (blue, white, black) have counterspells would lessen the major differences between the three colors.
So? Green, Red, and Black all have land destruction. White and green share enchantment destruction. Green, white, and red all share artifact destruction. Black and red both share forced sacrifice. Black, white, and to a lesser extent, red share creature destruction. Black and red share direct damage with white using it on creatures in combat and green zapping flying creatures and players. All colors share creature pump with green usually being one shot, white being global or toughness pump, red being firebreathing or flowstone, blue swapping or "becomes...", and black with the shade ability. Every color has the ability "Draw a card," +1/+1 in counter and global form, and creature tokens. Green, white and black all share lifegain. Blue and white share rules setting. Red and green share fast mana. Red and blue share spell/permanent stealing. Blue and white share tapping while blue and green share untapping. Green and white can both search for lands. Blue, black, green, and white share tutoring. White and green share damage prevention. White, blue, green, and black can all recur from the graveyard with white and black even going the reanimation route. Black and blue share mill. Every creature keyword is shared nowdays. Really the only 2 exclusive mechanics anymore have been discard and counterspells.
As for a black counterspell, the color can do anything as long as it pays extra for it. Abjure actually does make a lot more sense as a black (or even red) counterspell than a blue one. Blue isn't really the color to counter a spell by throwing someone else in the way of it. Blue (or white) would be far more prepared and smite it like a skilled mage rather than some countermeasure made up on the spot. I really like that probably the best as a red/black hybrid counter. The art should be a goblin being hurled at a mage that's attempting to cast a spell. In general, I'd be against black counterspells, but, something like that would be a worthwhile exception. It's just like black's painland mana dorks. 2 for 1ing yourself is probably a fair tradeoff for the off color countering ability.
i just wish that black had better life-gain.... or zombies w/ lifelink.
Zombies? I always thought lifelink should be the vampire mechanic, but why zombies?
I couldn't get on board with it. I just did not feel like it was a black spell. The words 'counter' existed there, but to believe it I had to swallow "oh it's punisher..." and be content. I wasn't.
Counterspells exist in the part of Blue which is closer to White, Logic. If they are White, they are part of Order. Symmetries do exist in the Pie in uncontroversial cases, and if you believe there's something to that, it rules out counters being in Black.
I've always felt that the justification for white getting counterspells was its defensive nature, its sense of "don't hurt me or my boys".
To that end, I can see black's flavor in a similar way, only with a more covering one's own ass bent. Counterspells which have you give something up as a cost fit that feel fairly well (giving up something expendable to save your butt from the fire - which is often the flavor for demonic pacts and such, "what I want/need at any price").
Similarly, punisher-style counters are a great fit for black's opportunistic sense of cruelty and sadism. And, in many ways, its arrogance. Black might let you do what you want, but you'll have to give up something precious first. And of all the colors, black is the one most capable and motivated to screw you over anyway even after you pay the price of its barbain.
Of course, I'm of the opinion that counterspells can and maybe ought to be branched out (to varying degress and flavors) to all the colors, so your mileage may vary.
Drain Mind XB
Instant
Counter target spell unless its controller pays X life. If they do, gain X life.
Untrace B
Instant
Remove target card in a graveyard from the game. If you do, you may counter target spell with the same name.
Diabolic Intervention1B
Instant
Counter target spell. At the beginning of your upkeep, if ~ is in your graveyard, lose 2 life.
Well, Diabolic Intervention is way too strong in black aggro. Chances are, you won't even play it until the Wrath comes down and by then, it's an undercosted Counterspell in black that might shock you once. Memory Lapse got cut from white's Planar Chaos sheet for being stupid good in white weenie at 2. This is a true hard counter for the same price. Now, Untrace is cool. It should definately be rare, though, since it's not that good in limited and people will initially go nuts over it like Expirate since it looks insane until you actually play it.
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My question is, now that white is getting a more expensive Memory Lapse should black be getting some punisher style counter spells. I would say yes it should. Sure Dash Hopes by itself wasn't good and it really didn't interact with any of the other punisher black spells they printed, but if they where to print 2 or 3 more simular black counter spells, then the repetative effects might be enough to base a deck around.
For example, if they where to reprint Dash Hopes along with a one black mana Dim Hopes that would cost 3 life to counter and a three black mana Destroy Hopes that would cost 7 life to counter, then the shear amount of life loss that you could cause through these counter spells would make opponents abit more weary about losing life to any one of them.
And it doesn't have to be life loss all the time either. You can work in other black abilities into their counter spells. How about black be given a counter spell that can be countered if an opponent sacrifices a land, or sacrifices a creature or two, or who has to discard a random card from their hand?
Don't get me wrong, I'm not that permission deck fanboi by any stretch of the imagiation. In fact, I'm rather leary of them. But that said, I wouldn't mind counterspells being pushed abit, if they where spread out over 3 colors instead of all of them being in one.
What do you guys think of the idea of black getting counterspells as well as white?
That would be a sick addition to Faries or B/W Token deck. Maybe too good. B/G elves could use it as well, sacrifice your mana dork or brid to counter a wrath or cuel ultimatium?
Instant (Rare)
Counter target spell unless its controller discards two cards.
Maybe a little too strong?
Maybe a little too weak.
It would suck in late game. At best, it's just a "target opponent discards to cards" at Instant speed. While that's not bad by itself, it'll be somehow worse than Dash Hopes, which I think is an awesome card and I use it all the time.:D
EDIT: And it's RARE?! Should be uncommon, at most.
I like 4/4s for 7.
Agreed. They should have to go the Abjure way. Pay hard, counter hard.
This looks most like what I've envisioned, though I prefer a steeper cost for both players.
Tourach's Denial 1BB (maybe even straight triple black)
Instant (uncommon)
Counter target spell unless it's controller discards 2 cards at random from his or her hand.
If a spell is countered this way, it's controller may discard a card at random to put the card into his or her hand instead into his or her graveyard.
Now, THAT's more like it! I agree, it should be BBB to make it more hard, otherwise it's kinda broken.:-/
I like 4/4s for 7.
Well anyway, I agree that Dash Hopes concept should be explored a bit. But Black doesnt seem to be the color that gives choices. Im with the Pay hard, counter hard opinion.
As an additional cost to play -, sacrifice a creature seems a reasonably black drawback.
Also, I think this card is pretty far from broken at 3. It's a conditional counter that, on important aggressive spells, will play mostly like Memory Lapse. On vital answers, more like Tourach's Chant. Point is, it gives your opponent options, the inherent weakness of all punisher cards.
Essentially, I think this is 2nd tier counter magic (in standard; eternally, more like 4th or 5th), much like Lapse of Certainty. If they wanted to push off-color counters, they could print it at BB.
Edit: Sarnath'd
I couldn't get on board with it. I just did not feel like it was a black spell. The words 'counter' existed there, but to believe it I had to swallow "oh it's punisher..." and be content. I wasn't.
Counterspells exist in the part of Blue which is closer to White, Logic. If they are White, they are part of Order. Symmetries do exist in the Pie in uncontroversial cases, and if you believe there's something to that, it rules out counters being in Black.
Black gets to say what goes. Black can take action and change things how it wants. But it doesn't stop things. Anything you do, it can try to undo, with destruction, or killing. But I don't think it is supposed to control magic.
It doesn't play nice with counters anyway. Recall particularly recent articles from MaRo. Blue waits for things to happen. Blue tries to solve the problem exactly but Black just wants it over with. Counters have a pensiveness, a reactiveness, and a precision-focus that is at odds with Black's identity.
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QFT, even though I'm a die hard black mage.
In addition, to the flavor argument against black counterspells, I'll supply mechanical reasons: Black already has discard, which if you think about them, are usually just preemptive coutnerspells. Functionally, black is already attacking cards before they hit play, just in a much more aggressive fashion than blue.
White could have counterspells (I don't like them anymore than black counterspells) because of its reactive nature but black does not because it already has discard.
Also, a major weakness of discard, and since discard is by and large a black ability, a major weakness of black is that it can't deal with cards that are just drawn and played. For creatures this is alright, since black has removal by the fist full, but artifacts and enchantments can still sneak past discard spells if a player just draws and plays them (assuming discard is not an instant).
I feel that this is a crucial weakness of black that should be maintained, since the most efficient black hosers tend to be enchantments (compost, karma, etc.) White with counterspells, while a stretch, isn't as big a deal since white can already handle cards of almost any permanent type.
A sufficient weakness for white should be that the color of narrow mindess can't draw cards. I would much rather see more black draw than black counterspells since its 1. already in black's pie, 2. would help distinguish black control from white control.
Letting all three control colors (blue, white, black) have counterspells would lessen the major differences between the three colors.
I'd feel more comfortable if those counters were more than one color if not just blue.
The difference between you and I is that I don't claim to be a good player.
In my mind, open counterspells should never be printed. I love Negate; Remove Soul really should be black. Why does blue get removal for everything? The only thing it can't do well is mass removal, but it doesn't have to if it gets to draw cards.
I think it's time for black to get the creature counters and white to get something (apparently it's becoming the tempo color with Excommunicate, the new Lapse, and to a lesser extent, Oblivion Ring - I would really love for this to continue). Blue should be some threats and some answers; it shouldn't have all the answers like it always had. Other than that, blue's fine. There's just something to be said about not getting to play Magic. Keep Magic proactive and not reactive.
As a blue player, I like how blue can be reactive (interactive). There's nothing wrong with that.
The difference between you and I is that I don't claim to be a good player.
B (maybe BB?)
instant
Lose half your life rounded up
Counter target spell.
I think the focus of this wasnt the drawback, but what the counter is able to target in different colours.
To the OP: I agree with this in some regard, although because counters can only be used when the spell is on the stack, they can be compared to other removal which kills anything that came into play this turn, which, to the best of my knowledge, is not the best mode of removal. The 'counter problem' is only really a problem when coupled with tempo which will limit the number of spells the blue player has to deal with with counters.
Second, the only reason white is getting a bit is it fits white's traditional "tax" theme, and white has really been in need of a boost for the past 5 years or so.
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The color is still very very strong overall especially if you look at extended.
The last thing black needs is more pie talk about overkill apparently damnation being printed wasn't enough for black mages.
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right now WotC as Nicol Bolas said, is making up for the 5 years of wite being not-so-good. i just wish that black had better life-gain.... or zombies w/ lifelink.
official rules advisor. it gets me there.
Reminds me of Skullscorch.
Black isn't all brute force. I would say it is more devious and craft than going all-in.
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So? Green, Red, and Black all have land destruction. White and green share enchantment destruction. Green, white, and red all share artifact destruction. Black and red both share forced sacrifice. Black, white, and to a lesser extent, red share creature destruction. Black and red share direct damage with white using it on creatures in combat and green zapping flying creatures and players. All colors share creature pump with green usually being one shot, white being global or toughness pump, red being firebreathing or flowstone, blue swapping or "becomes...", and black with the shade ability. Every color has the ability "Draw a card," +1/+1 in counter and global form, and creature tokens. Green, white and black all share lifegain. Blue and white share rules setting. Red and green share fast mana. Red and blue share spell/permanent stealing. Blue and white share tapping while blue and green share untapping. Green and white can both search for lands. Blue, black, green, and white share tutoring. White and green share damage prevention. White, blue, green, and black can all recur from the graveyard with white and black even going the reanimation route. Black and blue share mill. Every creature keyword is shared nowdays. Really the only 2 exclusive mechanics anymore have been discard and counterspells.
As for a black counterspell, the color can do anything as long as it pays extra for it. Abjure actually does make a lot more sense as a black (or even red) counterspell than a blue one. Blue isn't really the color to counter a spell by throwing someone else in the way of it. Blue (or white) would be far more prepared and smite it like a skilled mage rather than some countermeasure made up on the spot. I really like that probably the best as a red/black hybrid counter. The art should be a goblin being hurled at a mage that's attempting to cast a spell. In general, I'd be against black counterspells, but, something like that would be a worthwhile exception. It's just like black's painland mana dorks. 2 for 1ing yourself is probably a fair tradeoff for the off color countering ability.
Zombies? I always thought lifelink should be the vampire mechanic, but why zombies?
I've always felt that the justification for white getting counterspells was its defensive nature, its sense of "don't hurt me or my boys".
To that end, I can see black's flavor in a similar way, only with a more covering one's own ass bent. Counterspells which have you give something up as a cost fit that feel fairly well (giving up something expendable to save your butt from the fire - which is often the flavor for demonic pacts and such, "what I want/need at any price").
Similarly, punisher-style counters are a great fit for black's opportunistic sense of cruelty and sadism. And, in many ways, its arrogance. Black might let you do what you want, but you'll have to give up something precious first. And of all the colors, black is the one most capable and motivated to screw you over anyway even after you pay the price of its barbain.
Of course, I'm of the opinion that counterspells can and maybe ought to be branched out (to varying degress and flavors) to all the colors, so your mileage may vary.
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Well, Diabolic Intervention is way too strong in black aggro. Chances are, you won't even play it until the Wrath comes down and by then, it's an undercosted Counterspell in black that might shock you once. Memory Lapse got cut from white's Planar Chaos sheet for being stupid good in white weenie at 2. This is a true hard counter for the same price. Now, Untrace is cool. It should definately be rare, though, since it's not that good in limited and people will initially go nuts over it like Expirate since it looks insane until you actually play it.