Wasn't there a thing last year saying there was going to be a new sanctioned format coming? I remember everyone being up in arms thinking it'd be the DCI trying to get their paws on EDH
Only thing that really tips me off is that if they guy wanted to leak something, he/she would make a fake account, so WOTC doesn't fire/possibly sue their ass. Ideally they would obfuscate their language/writing style as well...but that's stretching my conspiracy theory.
That ignores that he proactively chose to address this particular rumor with a "no comment," though. It's not like he was asked in an interview or something -- he said it on Twitter (where he could have just ignored the question, where all the R&D people don't respond to 90% of the direct tweets they get) and he went out of his way to add the "we're always interested in feedback" bit.
Like I said earlier, I don't think this necessarily means the exact details provided are accurate, but it's suggestive of the idea that WotC is planning on introducing another format at some near-future date.
Indeed, but if i was Aaron and people were excited about a rumor, i'd want feedback on it. If people were excited about a sanctioned EDH format, i might not be planning to do anything in the future, but with so much feedback i might consider adding the EDH rules to the Comp. Rulebook.
I'm not sure if the cost of cards will get any cheaper...
Tarmogoyf will have a higher demand in another newer format.
Fetchlands will double.
This is a reason why it is in WotC's best interests NOT to support "overextended." Overextended is still an eternal format.
Unless WotC reprints fetchlands/tarmogoyfs in a consistent, set after set after set manner, or introduces power creep (even past the power of goyf and fetches) then the new product that they would be releasing WOULD NOT sell as well as it is selling right now.
If WotC begins to make this a PTQ format where the decks to beat have very few cards from the latest set, they are not making as much money as they could be.
If Overextended happens, and you wanted to build an overextended deck, lets say zoo, would you buy a $60 goyf or 2 $30 Vengevines?
If you didn't say vengevines, then WotC wouldn't make very much money off you. Financially, they'd prefer you to play standard.
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This is a reason why it is in WotC's best interests NOT to support "overextended." Overextended is still an eternal format.
Unless WotC reprints fetchlands/tarmogoyfs in a consistent, set after set after set manner, or introduces power creep (even past the power of goyf and fetches) then the new product that they would be releasing WOULD NOT sell as well as it is selling right now.
why wouldn't it still sell when there is limited, standard and extended?
If WotC begins to make this a PTQ format where the decks to beat have very few cards from the latest set, they are not making as much money as they could be.
i agree that the decks to beat would have very few cards from the newest set, but with such a large card pool you could just use the best cards from any particular.
If Overextended happens, and you wanted to build an overextended deck, lets say zoo, would you buy a $60 goyf or 2 $30 Vengevines?
If you didn't say vengevines, then WotC wouldn't make very much money off you. Financially, they'd prefer you to play standard.
wizards would only make money off the booster that cracked the goyf or vengevine so whats the point of bringing up the secondary market price of these cards?
I've heard rumors of a new format since before States last year. The fact that the Overextended thread came up just gave those of us that heard said new format rumors a bit of hope as to what it could be. Yes it could be a fake format, but until it's proven that it in fact is I'll enjoy the possibilities of it.
This is a reason why it is in WotC's best interests NOT to support "overextended." Overextended is still an eternal format.
Yes, this is true. But it isn't in WotC's best interests to get too greedy.
If there were no other formats than Standard, people would look at the situation, and say that their cards were no good after two years... so why waste money on this stuff? Even six years might not seem that long when you've been playing a while - so that's why there is Legacy in addition to Extended.
If it was in Wizards' interests to have Legacy in the first place, then, if it is now the case that Legacy is fading away because of the high price of its staples... then a new format would fill a gap in making customers feel more positive about buying cards they will use first in Standard, and then in Extended.
Of course Wizards is in business to make money. But you make money by serving the customer, not by being short-sighted. This is why I think that a new format is a possibility, given that reprints (of the cards in question) apparently are not.
why wouldn't it still sell when there is limited, standard and extended?
Well it would likely take the place for extended. Furthermore, the Overextended season would equate to the time of lowest new pack sales compared to the limited, standard, and extended season. Why they would intentionally plan a span of 3ish months to decrease their sales, I dont know.
wizards would only make money off the booster that cracked the goyf or vengevine so whats the point of bringing up the secondary market price of these cards?
Because vengevines are all from cracked packs. I bet there are a lot more stores ordering ROE cases from WotC because they need vengevines/gideons than there are stores ordering cases of FUT from WotC because they need Goyf. If vengevines sell, so do the packs.
Even six years might not seem that long when you've been playing a while - so that's why there is Legacy in addition to Extended.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you stated that Legacy is there to keep cards older than the extended blocks from becoming worthless. If this is the case, then it seems like to me, there is no reason to make overextended. If legacy is dying because of high prices, than that means that the cards are still selling (and quite well).
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you stated that Legacy is there to keep cards older than the extended blocks from becoming worthless. If this is the case, then it seems like to me, there is no reason to make overextended. If legacy is dying because of high prices, than that means that the cards are still selling (and quite well).
The point is, which cards will increase in value.
For example, when Chronicles came out, the Elder Dragon Legends, which were reprinted in it, plummeted in value. Obviously, the original duals, and the Power Nine, which weren't reprinted in it, were not affected.
So I have supposed that part of the strong reaction to Chronicles, which led to the adoption of the Reprint Policy, was due to a perceived unfairness. The most expensive cards were being protected in value by Wizards' unstated policy of not reprinting the overpowered cards, but the second-tier valuable cards, that a larger number of players were able to own copies of, were treated by a different standard.
So basically the idea is that a higher price for the original dual lands and for The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale restricts the popularity of Legacy, and the card pool of Legacy restricts the importance of current cards in it, with the result that while those cards still stay high in price, the prices for Chrome Mox, Gilded Lotus, and a few years later, Umezawa's Jitte and then Tarmogoyf, will plummet, because Legacy will be insufficient to do anything for the prices of those cards when they rotate out of Extended.
So a new format would support the value of non-Legacy cards that are now very valuable, because of their popularity in Extended, thereby avoiding a perception of unfairness on Wizards' part, and avoiding pitting players with Legacy-oriented collections against players with Extended-oriented collections.
Obviously, suggesting approaching the issue instead by reprints of the original duals, while that meets the goal of letting more people play authentic Legacy instead of imitation Legacy, still would pit the interests of players with these two types of collection against each other.
For example, when Chronicles came out, the Elder Dragon Legends, which were reprinted in it, plummeted in value. Obviously, the original duals, and the Power Nine, which weren't reprinted in it, were not affected.
So I have supposed that part of the strong reaction to Chronicles, which led to the adoption of the Reprint Policy, was due to a perceived unfairness. The most expensive cards were being protected in value by Wizards' unstated policy of not reprinting the overpowered cards, but the second-tier valuable cards, that a larger number of players were able to own copies of, were treated by a different standard.
It wasn't just that, Chronicles was printed because Legends COMMONS were 5 and 6$ at the time. There just wasn't enough of the product to go around. So they made a set to sort of catch people up. It did cause some cards to go down in value, but they had already reprinted cards in Revised, and again in 4th edition, so it wasn't that it was such a huge surprise, it was more that there wasn't enough time between the printings, and there weren't separate, defined formats.
Shortly after Chronicles, there was a format split to Type 1 and Type 2 (and later Type 1.5, which became extended). Ever since then, reprints have increased the value of the previous cards when they have made the card legal in another format (obviously depending on the quality of the card).
But the outcry was huge following the launch of Chronicles, I remember the Duelist articles on it. Because people lost huge amounts of virtual value in their cards. And thus the Reserved List was born. After more than a decade, it is difficult for Wizards to go back on it - and old collectors are worried about the implications of these reprints. Even the hint of reprint in some form (FTV, or what have you), can have a freezing effect on these markets. Who would want to buy a Black Lotus if it was going to be available in a FTV a few months, or even a couple of years from now? A 15 year old card, you can wait another year or so right? Such a rumor can stop people from investing in one, and if sales stall, prices drop.
By reaffirming that they aren't going to drop the reserved list, this prevents that kind of freeze on really old stuff (Stuff they wouldn't really reprint) but does leave true Legacy in a format that can't be fully supported. If they can't make more Moxes, and they can't make Extended longer, how do older cards that can't reprint for Standard power level reasons ever get used? Simple - make a format where they can lock in power to a particular level - especially one where they can print FTV, and Duel decks with reprints of cards that people will want to play with. As long as they keep the chase cards to 1 per duel deck, or a couple to the FTV, and keep those products limited - the secondary market won't suffer too much - but they can infuse the environment with the appropriate cards.
As far as card availability, every set since Ice Age probably has enough product out there to make it viable, but by using the reserved list as a stopping point - they can't avoid the ridiculousness that is Urza's Block out of this environment (where Force of Will would be a necessity).
To the OP: Why do people believe this rumor? Because it makes a LOT of sense. It's not a wish or someone or a gotcha type thing. Masques wasn't super popular, but it does coincide with the end of the reserve list.
Even the hint of reprint in some form (FTV, or what have you), can have a freezing effect on these markets.
And this is probably why Wizards reversed itself so suddenly on the foil loophole.
I would have thought that it would have been enough for Wizards to just clearly state that it was not going to reprint, even as foils, the really expensive cards, without giving up that particular exciting promotion - or otherwise make themselves look as though they are beholden to a small minority, or are being less than candid with their customers.
But because that statement would have excluded the original duals, the main controversy that this kicked up would not have been prevented.
Of course, starting with Masques makes sense for the second reason that it was the block after Urza block, as well as being the block after the end of the Reserved List.
Even if you doubt the credibility of the initial source, the massive discussion that it sparked will undoubtedly spark some discussion at Wizards. Maro and others watch the speculation rumor forums. Even if the source was wrong, all of this discussion may prompt serious consideration of the format by Wizards.
I wonder how much of this new "Overextended" format has to do with the fact that Mercadian Masques should be released online in the next year or so. Masques is where the reserved list stops, and they've been trying to make everything online anyways, so this way people can now practice their Eternal skills online.
It just seems like it goes hand-in-hand with online, cause EVERYTHING seems to have to go hand-in-hand with online.
The issue is that it is a collectible card game, and frankly the secondary market is nothing without the tournament scene. If people feel choked out of the tournament seen, prices will stabilize and/or drop off. It's not just whining, its simple math. If a person looks at the entry cost of a format, they blink and choose a cheaper one when starting out.
The issue with Legacy is that the cost have begun to become prohibitive. Where old staples could be had at for $10 or so, today now are $20 and things like FoW are even more. Frankly, it annoys me to no end because a lot of this is due to Starcity tournaments. It's great for them and people that already own the cards, except that it begins to restrict the format to people that have substantial collections or have a lot of throw away cash. It just resets it back to Vintage all over again.
Wizard doesn't want to go back on their "word," so instead this one of the only compromises that makes sense. There's a critical mass point to where cards worth so much won't even see play any more, which I am quite sure is where a number of Power Nines are starting to head now. The same with any mint dual lands and so forth.
It's all demand and supply. One is exponentially going up, and the other is declining. While I do not expect cards to accrue in value like a Ty Cobb card, but I do expect them to increase to something where only people that have a bit of money can only play them. Vintage most certainly blocks a significant amount of people, Legacy will probably follow.
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I have no idea why people think it will be some stunning idea. We'll just get to play the same decks everybody loved playing against in Extended. Zoo, Dredge and so on. It's going to be nothing new at all. They just shouldn't have changed how extended rotated.
The only reason that this format is even being discussed is the Reserve List. Similarly, the only reason that Legacy as a format is in trouble, or will soon be in trouble, is the Reserve List. Say what you will about the costs of fetchlands, mythics, Standard staples, etc. They don't even come close to the Reserve List nonsense (with the notable exceptions of Force of Will and Tarmogoyf).
For reference, here is a list of critical Legacy staples and their price tags.
I have left a few cards off the list (Dreadnought, Dream Halls, Serra's Sanctum, Replenish) either because they are not as expensive as the above cards, are used only in certain decks, or are not wildly popular.
These cards are pretty darn expensive. The closest Standard competitors are Jace (a whopping 70 dollars), Gideon (50), Elspeth (50), and Baneslayer (50). Extended has Tarmogoyf (75) and Dark Depths (35). Legacy, on the other hand, has all of the above listed Reserve cards, in addition to the expensive, non-reserve staples (Wasteland, FoW, fetchlands, Tarmogoyf, Jitte, Entomb, Thoughtseize, Natural Order, etc.) These cards alone would make Legacy an impressively expensive format. Adding in the Reserved cards, however, makes it a true bank-buster.
Wizards has effectively put their foot down on the issue; the Reserve List is not getting changed, and none of the cards on it are coming off. This is bad news for Legacy. These Reserve List cards mentioned above are integral parts of many Legacy decks. In the case of the dual lands, they are relevant for ALL Legacy decks. As the format continues to age, the decks that use these cards will continue to gain popularity. With supply fixed and no new cards coming, prices will continue to rise as demand goes up.
All of this might sound a little alarmist. Financial trends, however, affirm this fear. Consider the following graphs of card prices. All data is taken from blacklotusproject, a site that compiles ebay prices. While the individual prices differ from the magic info ones, the trends are invaluable. It is extremely reasonable to assume that blacklotusproject, ebay-based trends translate to an internet-wide, dealer trend. Given this, our graphs below reveal some disturbing truths. Below each card, I have given the change in price between October 2008 and May 2010.
Again, the BLP prices are on the low side because they use eBay data, and as we all know, there are lots of excellent bargains and total suckers on eBay to skew that data. The things to notice are not prices. We should instead focus on trends. All of the prices of the most played dual lands (Tropical Island, Tundra, Underground Sea) basically doubled in the sub-2 year period. They will continue to rise as more players enter Legacy and card supplies dwindle. If trends continue as is for another two years, dual lands will all be at least 70 dollars, with the most expensive hitting at least 120 dollars. Eureka, Moat, and Tabernacle will hit even more absurd levels as well.
Magic is an expensive game. This is true of all formats. The planeswalkers of Standard (plus Baneslayer) add up rather quickly, and a lot of Standard decks carry price tags comparable to some Legacy ones. But overall, the Legacy deck prices are far, far higher. ANT, Zoo, and Reanimator both cost just over 1000 each. CounterTop can cost as much as 1400. (Prices compiled from MagicInfo and SCG open decklists. If anyone doubts the work, I will happily show the compilation). Sure, Standard decks hit 700 (UW Control, UWR Walkers), but that pricetag won't get much higher. In another year, in fact, the whole deck will have rotated out of the format.
Legacy is an ETERNAL format, and its decks do not change much. Its staples also do not change much. Legacy Reserve List cards will continue their upward price trend, and will soon become flatly unavailable to new players. This creates economic discrepancies in decks that impact tournaments and format health as a whole.
How does the New Format fix things?
A new format would change this. Like Legacy, it would have established archetypes and established staples. Unlike Legacy, however, all cards could, and would, be reprinted. If prices got too high, Wizards could print new runs to encourage format health. Heck, if they didn't want to pollute Standard with power-creep cards, they could even do so in Master's and From the Vaults sets. Ravnica duals could easily be reprinted if the current stock could not satisfy demand. Indeed, Wizards might kick off the new format with a new set (maybe even M2011) with old staples reprinted.
The Reserve List is the biggest detriment to Legacy format health. With it now set in stone, Wizards must take action to preserve the Eternal formats. Vintage has failed. Legacy is failing. Only a new format will suffice to satiate players' appetites for the Eternal gameplay. Even those who do not yet see the pricing problem will change their mind in a year or two from now. Wizards would be wise to pre-empt that disaster.
It seems to me that most of the high priced cards are just from old sets.
Imo, to have something a little different and not have so many of these old staple cards to be "required" in a format, just have a new format using only the middle sets, lets say starting Urza's Saga up to the last set to be in Standard.
So no old, expensive cards is a must to have, and same with the newer cards.
1. like others stated, he wasn't the only one talking about it, and wizards even commented on it (they didn't confirm, but they didn't deny either).
2. i have a problem with how people treat "rumors". a rumor, by its nature, is not 100% confirmed true. thats why its a rumor. i imagine some people that get shady information from a source/sources don't post on the "rumor mill" becouse they know all the backlash they are going to get. are their trolls out there? of course, but its called a "rumor mill" for a reason. Its the job of the mods to determine who is trolling.
Anyway, remember that "troll" that posted the rumor about the priceless treasures?
None of these are critical staples. Eureka shows up in two decks that were totally rogue. It's a wacky Legends card. Moat is used as a one of in some Enchantress decks for marginal benefit (Elephant Grass usually does a better job at stifling aggro early on) and as a 4 of in Rich Man Stax, which is, as the name suggests, more a novelty build for the sake of showing off how rich one is, rather than a hyper-competitive build. And Tabernacle is an anomaly that could probably be banned from Legacy and hurt no-one.
This was only unbanned a little while ago. With combo starting to get scarily good, it and it's fellow un-bannees Entomb and Dream Halls might not be long for the format.
This one is a problem though. I don't see Wizards printing another stompy land to take it's place, and stompy decks are a big deal in Legacy.
In the case of the dual lands, they are relevant for ALL Legacy decks.
No. They aren't. In fact many Legacy decks try to have as few non-basics as possible to avoid getting hit by Wasteland. And a lot of decks don't want lots of colors, so they have no need of duals. Here's a list of decks that usually use no duals.
Here's some decks that use minimal duals or have alternative mana-bases
-Belcher (1 Bayou, 1 Taiga)
-Enchantress (Sometimes 1-2 Savannah and usually always 1 Taiga)
-Aggro Loam (2 Taiga, 1 Badlands, 1 Bayou)
-Spanish Inquisition (2 of any combination of Black Dual, depending on splash[es])
-Eva Green (3-4 Bayou)
-T.E.S. (sometimes does a "gold" manabase like Ichorid's)
Sure, some decks are Dual hogs, like Zoo, Countertop, and ANT, but most aren't. Most decks run under 4 duals or none at all. This isn't Standard where every deck will probably need 3-4 of the format relevant duals that are in colors.
They will continue to rise as more players enter Legacy and card supplies dwindle. If trends continue as is for another two years, dual lands will all be at least 70 dollars, with the most expensive hitting at least 120 dollars. Eureka, Moat, and Tabernacle will hit even more absurd levels as well.
You're assuming that Legacy player growth stays constant. What if something stifles that growth...like um....oh...I don't know...high prices? Standard not sucking for a season or two? Standard becoming fun and affordable? Extended actually being properly supported? Magic's boom hitting a bust?
Legacy is an ETERNAL format, and its decks do not change much.
Not exactly. Solidarity used to be top dog among combo. Now ANT and Spanish Inquisition are the most favorable in the metagame because faster combo is required.
Legacy does change with new cards. Imagine if a specific Dual hate card was printed...what might that do? Say...
Commissar's Curio
1 CMC
Artifact
As long as all lands do not share a basic land type, then lands with 2 or more basic land types don't untap during their controller's untap step.
Clunky because of Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, but it could do the trick, making duals a little more dangerous and making more manabases mostly fetches and basics, with maybe a few duals if the meta permits.
The point is, new cards can have a big effect, and the staples can change.
Unlike Legacy, however, all cards could, and would, be reprinted. If prices got too high, Wizards could print new runs to encourage format health.
Wizards has never done anything like this in the past. Why do you make the enormous assumption that they would here? Where's the promo Goyfs that would solve so many price issues in Extended and Legacy? Why hasn't Force been reprinted in almost 15 years of steady use? Why do they ship us textless goddamn Cancel instead of those nice Chrome Mox and Jitte promos you have to fly across the globe to get?
This assumption could go far to crack down on Legacy prices too. Drop a ton of new Goyfs, Wastelands, and Forces into the player's hands and Legacy becomes much cheaper.
The Reserve List is the biggest detriment to Legacy format health.
Nope. It's rampant speculation and high demand, the same things that make Magic unnecessarily expensive across all constructed formats. I guarantee if Overextended becomes a reality, and a heavily in-demand format a la Legacy (rumore PTQ support would do that), it will be just almost as expensive as Legacy within a season, barring a mile long ban list or Wizards bending over backwards to flood the market with every staple (again...not gonna happen).
None of these are critical staples. Eureka shows up in two decks that were totally rogue. It's a wacky Legends card. Moat is used as a one of in some Enchantress decks for marginal benefit (Elephant Grass usually does a better job at stifling aggro early on) and as a 4 of in Rich Man Stax, which is, as the name suggests, more a novelty build for the sake of showing off how rich one is, rather than a hyper-competitive build. And Tabernacle is an anomaly that could probably be banned from Legacy and hurt no-one.
My implication was not that Eureka/Tabernacle/Moat were cards that are integral to Legacy as a format. They are just integral to certain decks that use them. Because of this, only extremely wealthy players can run these decks. We are in agreement, however, on both LED and City.
No. They aren't. In fact many Legacy decks try to have as few non-basics as possible to avoid getting hit by Wasteland. And a lot of decks don't want lots of colors, so they have no need of duals. Here's a list of decks that usually use no duals.
I agree that some decks do not use duals. Unfortunately, many of these decks are just bad and see little to no play (Fish, Dredge, and Goblins being the notable exceptions). The majority of good, prevalent decks use duals. Not an insane number, but a prohibitive number.
-ANT
-Reanimator
-Zoo
-Countertop
-NO Bant
-Aggro Loam (I firmly disagree with you on this. Most run at least 5, which is roughly the same as all the others on this list)
-Canadian Threshold
-43/38 Lands
-Team America
On that list, only Merfolk does not use duals. The others are notorious for their reliance on dual lands in their manabase (ANT to a lesser extent than the rest). The bottom line is clear: Legacy decks are dependent on Duals and they define the format. Some decks do not need them, but many of these decks are just of a lesser quality than the best, dual-intensive beasts.
You're assuming that Legacy player growth stays constant. What if something stifles that growth...like um....oh...I don't know...high prices? Standard not sucking for a season or two? Standard becoming fun and affordable? Extended actually being properly supported? Magic's boom hitting a bust?
Wizards wants a functional Eternal format. The point of the new format would be to create an Eternal environment that was not stifled by all of these possible factors.
Wizards has never done anything like this in the past. Why do you make the enormous assumption that they would here? Where's the promo Goyfs that would solve so many price issues in Extended and Legacy? Why hasn't Force been reprinted in almost 15 years of steady use? Why do they ship us textless goddamn Cancel instead of those nice Chrome Mox and Jitte promos you have to fly across the globe to get?
Because it would be a huge marketing move. Imagine if they announced a new format simultaneously with a huge, M11 "New Format Staples" print run? Sales would be outrageously high, Wizards would make a lot of money, and players would be happy. Let's not get into the economic nuances of supply and demand here, because as far as I know, none of us are intimately and academically familiar with the Wizards marketing model. What we do know is that they want popular formats and they want high sales. Reprinting staples to facilitate their new format could easily boost its popularity and have a minimal Standard impact (Depending on the reprinted cards).
As to Wizards past reprinting decisions, they clearly acknowledge that they were unwise. Their big fuss about the Reserve List is a testament to this, and while they had to back down on it for unclear reasons, they made a real effort to learn about what the players wanted. If they continue this practice, they will work towards player demand and enjoyment. A new format would be a step in the right direction.
This assumption could go far to crack down on Legacy prices too. Drop a ton of new Goyfs, Wastelands, and Forces into the player's hands and Legacy becomes much cheaper.
That would solve the Goyf/Wasteland/FoW problem, but not the dual problem. Why would Wizards want to support an inherently damage format (courtesy of the Reserve List)? It seems like it would be much smarter to gradually pull back format support and shift it to something new and more popular.
Nope. It's rampant speculation and high demand, the same things that make Magic unnecessarily expensive across all constructed formats. I guarantee if Overextended becomes a reality, and a heavily in-demand format a la Legacy (rumore PTQ support would do that), it will be just almost as expensive as Legacy within a season, barring a mile long ban list or Wizards bending over backwards to flood the market with every staple (again...not gonna happen).
Prices will certainly go up for key staples, that much is clear. But an intelligent Wizards reprinting run with some of those staples (Onsalught Fetchlands and Ravnica duals) would make this bearable. Unlike Reserve List staples, they CAN reprint these cards. Unlike with the damaged Legacy format, they have every incentive to do so in an effort to support their new creation.
I would just love to hear an argument against the following Wizards model:
1. Announce a new format
2. Release M11 as the new format pilot, full of reprinted staples
2B. Alternately, release a few Masters/Planeswalkers/From the Vaults sets with these staples reprinted in them. (a worse option)
3. Announce a Pro season for the format, set to launch in Autumn.
The internet and real-life hype would be huge, and if Wizards could deliver the cards alongside the format, the payoff would be massive. This is true for both Wizards/Hasbro as a company, and players as a gaming population.
My implication was not that Eureka/Tabernacle/Moat were cards that are integral to Legacy as a format. They are just integral to certain decks that use them. Because of this, only extremely wealthy players can run these decks.
Maybe it's me, but besides Moat and the Tabernacle, none of the goofy expensive old cards seem like they have any sort of serious deck penetration. Yeah, Eureka showed up in some new deck trying to cheat an Emrakul into play...I don't see the big deal. It's not a Tier 1 deck by any stretch of the imagination, so there's not a lot of worry. Pretty much no player could afford to run BlackStaxx with 4x The Abyss, 4x Chains of Mephistopheles, 4x Nether Void, 4x Guardian Beast, and 4x Juzam Djinn. I think the issue is more when serious staples become expensive, which would be Moat and Tabernacle.
Tabernacle could probably see a ban just on the grounds that it is close to a "free", uncounterable Pendrell Mists. And if Wizards was willing to support an Eternal format at the cost of rotating ones, a new Moat variant could easily be printed. Make it cost more, or make it do additional things. Su-Chi was reserved, but that didn't stop Wizards from printing Cathodion. The thing is, I don't think Eternal formats really matter to them, so they wouldn't care.
We are in agreement, however, on both LED and City.
Yeah...these are problems, seeing as all Stompy/Stax decks need Cities and most combo decks need LEDs.
The majority of good, prevalent decks use duals. Not an insane number, but a prohibitive number.
Alright, I'll give you that a lot of good decks do use duals. But I don't think Legacy is necessarily have duals or go home like a lot make it out to be. Maybe it's because I'm not super-competitive, but I disagree that many good, solid decks cannot be made without duals. Not every meta is completely developed. And certain Tier 1.5 or Tier 2 decks can be great meta choices too. Sure, if you're going to big tournaments you probably want a Tier 1 deck, but at that level of competition Magic is expensive; see Standard decks in upwards of 700 dollars (with some single, in-print cards going for as much or more than most duals). But most players are not super-competitive, and those that are will foot the bill. That's how Magic has pretty much always been.
Wizards wants a functional Eternal format. The point of the new format would be to create an Eternal environment that was not stifled by all of these possible factors.
This is where I'm in a bit of disagreement...I don't think Wizards wants a thriving Eternal format...in paper at least.
Because it would be a huge marketing move. Imagine if they announced a new format simultaneously with a huge, M11 "New Format Staples" print run? Sales would be outrageously high, Wizards would make a lot of money, and players would be happy.
You and I probably wish it was like that. Fact is, Wizards has never, and likely will never, directly focus marketing on the tournament player demographic. Their biggest source of revenue is casual players. Rosewater and crew say this all the time. It kinda sucks, but what can we do?
What we do know is that they want popular formats and they want high sales. Reprinting staples to facilitate their new format could easily boost its popularity and have a minimal Standard impact (Depending on the reprinted cards).
Yes they do, but Standard and Limited, Wizards bread and butter, are both doing "great" (in terms of sales) and they don't want other formats, that don't pump as much guaranteed cash into Wizards coffers, siphoning players away from them.
Why would Wizards want to support an inherently damage format (courtesy of the Reserve List)? It seems like it would be much smarter to gradually pull back format support and shift it to something new and more popular.
First off, they'd be just as inclined to support Legacy as they would this new format in terms of helping the players. Second off, they have no idea whether or not Overextended would actually be popular. What if Legacy players don't make the switch? What if new players don't care? What if Overextended becomes as much of a black sheep as regular Extended?
Prices will certainly go up for key staples, that much is clear. But an intelligent Wizards reprinting run with some of those staples (Onsalught Fetchlands and Ravnica duals) would make this bearable. Unlike Reserve List staples, they CAN reprint these cards.
But they won't. It's their policy to not formally acknowledge the secondary market, much less design around it. And prices will shoot up if this has anywhere close to the popularity of Legacy, even more so if it has PTQ and PT support. It won't be affordable, popular "Legacy-Lite" after a short bit of time. Demand drives prices, and Wizards couldn't even keep up with the market if they wanted. Their printing schedules are planned out at least a year in advance. The meta changes quick, and with rampant speculation driving any cards to outrageous prices, there isn't much that can be done.
I would just love to hear an argument against the following Wizards model:
I can give a few.
Why market M11 on this new, untested format when they can pretty much guarantee sales by throwing Baneslayer Angel and Elspeth in, along with some other power-creep Mythics and be essentially printing money?
Oddly enough, around the same time Wizards locked down on the Reserve List, a funny thing happened...Legacy support went online in MTGO, where the list doesn't apply. Coincidence? I don't think so. An Eternal format where they can directly profit off of the sales of cards, and easily, as well as get Eternal players looking for other players to have to buy all their cards again.
This new format makes sense not only because of legacy becoming too expensive but also because wizards is "forced" to continuously reprint extended staples each time there is a rotation. If there was no new format wizards should now reprint in m11 eng explosives, chrome mox, etc, just like they did with fetchlands (and if you want... loam lion).
I don't think Wizards wants a thriving Eternal format...in paper at least.
Sure they do. An Eternal format is one of the best "free" player-retention tools you can have. As long as it doesn't outshine Standard, having an Eternal format is a very good thing for a game as popular and old as Magic.
Fact is, Wizards has never, and likely will never, directly focus marketing on the tournament player demographic.
They spend a ton of money marketing to tournament players. The entire budget for the Pro Tour is a promotional expense.
Only thing that really tips me off is that if they guy wanted to leak something, he/she would make a fake account, so WOTC doesn't fire/possibly sue their ass. Ideally they would obfuscate their language/writing style as well...but that's stretching my conspiracy theory.
thus the 1-post count of the poster.
Tarmogoyf will have a higher demand in another newer format.
Fetchlands will double.
In his Second 100 days - Yawgmoth's Bargain is unrestricted in Vintage.
What is going to happen in the Next 100 days!!!
Indeed, but if i was Aaron and people were excited about a rumor, i'd want feedback on it. If people were excited about a sanctioned EDH format, i might not be planning to do anything in the future, but with so much feedback i might consider adding the EDH rules to the Comp. Rulebook.
This is a reason why it is in WotC's best interests NOT to support "overextended." Overextended is still an eternal format.
Unless WotC reprints fetchlands/tarmogoyfs in a consistent, set after set after set manner, or introduces power creep (even past the power of goyf and fetches) then the new product that they would be releasing WOULD NOT sell as well as it is selling right now.
If WotC begins to make this a PTQ format where the decks to beat have very few cards from the latest set, they are not making as much money as they could be.
If Overextended happens, and you wanted to build an overextended deck, lets say zoo, would you buy a $60 goyf or 2 $30 Vengevines?
If you didn't say vengevines, then WotC wouldn't make very much money off you. Financially, they'd prefer you to play standard.
Top 64 Legacy Open SCG: Dallas/FortWorth 2013
SCG Open Trial (2013): 1st
why wouldn't it still sell when there is limited, standard and extended?
i agree that the decks to beat would have very few cards from the newest set, but with such a large card pool you could just use the best cards from any particular.
wizards would only make money off the booster that cracked the goyf or vengevine so whats the point of bringing up the secondary market price of these cards?
…( `\(o),,_/` ¯ : o : : : o `-, …. Beyond the hard times from now
have/want: http://www.mtgsalvation.com/trading-post/details/80-quattros-trade-thread
If there were no other formats than Standard, people would look at the situation, and say that their cards were no good after two years... so why waste money on this stuff? Even six years might not seem that long when you've been playing a while - so that's why there is Legacy in addition to Extended.
If it was in Wizards' interests to have Legacy in the first place, then, if it is now the case that Legacy is fading away because of the high price of its staples... then a new format would fill a gap in making customers feel more positive about buying cards they will use first in Standard, and then in Extended.
Of course Wizards is in business to make money. But you make money by serving the customer, not by being short-sighted. This is why I think that a new format is a possibility, given that reprints (of the cards in question) apparently are not.
Well it would likely take the place for extended. Furthermore, the Overextended season would equate to the time of lowest new pack sales compared to the limited, standard, and extended season. Why they would intentionally plan a span of 3ish months to decrease their sales, I dont know.
Because vengevines are all from cracked packs. I bet there are a lot more stores ordering ROE cases from WotC because they need vengevines/gideons than there are stores ordering cases of FUT from WotC because they need Goyf. If vengevines sell, so do the packs.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you stated that Legacy is there to keep cards older than the extended blocks from becoming worthless. If this is the case, then it seems like to me, there is no reason to make overextended. If legacy is dying because of high prices, than that means that the cards are still selling (and quite well).
Top 64 Legacy Open SCG: Dallas/FortWorth 2013
SCG Open Trial (2013): 1st
The point is, which cards will increase in value.
For example, when Chronicles came out, the Elder Dragon Legends, which were reprinted in it, plummeted in value. Obviously, the original duals, and the Power Nine, which weren't reprinted in it, were not affected.
So I have supposed that part of the strong reaction to Chronicles, which led to the adoption of the Reprint Policy, was due to a perceived unfairness. The most expensive cards were being protected in value by Wizards' unstated policy of not reprinting the overpowered cards, but the second-tier valuable cards, that a larger number of players were able to own copies of, were treated by a different standard.
So basically the idea is that a higher price for the original dual lands and for The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale restricts the popularity of Legacy, and the card pool of Legacy restricts the importance of current cards in it, with the result that while those cards still stay high in price, the prices for Chrome Mox, Gilded Lotus, and a few years later, Umezawa's Jitte and then Tarmogoyf, will plummet, because Legacy will be insufficient to do anything for the prices of those cards when they rotate out of Extended.
So a new format would support the value of non-Legacy cards that are now very valuable, because of their popularity in Extended, thereby avoiding a perception of unfairness on Wizards' part, and avoiding pitting players with Legacy-oriented collections against players with Extended-oriented collections.
Obviously, suggesting approaching the issue instead by reprints of the original duals, while that meets the goal of letting more people play authentic Legacy instead of imitation Legacy, still would pit the interests of players with these two types of collection against each other.
It wasn't just that, Chronicles was printed because Legends COMMONS were 5 and 6$ at the time. There just wasn't enough of the product to go around. So they made a set to sort of catch people up. It did cause some cards to go down in value, but they had already reprinted cards in Revised, and again in 4th edition, so it wasn't that it was such a huge surprise, it was more that there wasn't enough time between the printings, and there weren't separate, defined formats.
Shortly after Chronicles, there was a format split to Type 1 and Type 2 (and later Type 1.5, which became extended). Ever since then, reprints have increased the value of the previous cards when they have made the card legal in another format (obviously depending on the quality of the card).
But the outcry was huge following the launch of Chronicles, I remember the Duelist articles on it. Because people lost huge amounts of virtual value in their cards. And thus the Reserved List was born. After more than a decade, it is difficult for Wizards to go back on it - and old collectors are worried about the implications of these reprints. Even the hint of reprint in some form (FTV, or what have you), can have a freezing effect on these markets. Who would want to buy a Black Lotus if it was going to be available in a FTV a few months, or even a couple of years from now? A 15 year old card, you can wait another year or so right? Such a rumor can stop people from investing in one, and if sales stall, prices drop.
By reaffirming that they aren't going to drop the reserved list, this prevents that kind of freeze on really old stuff (Stuff they wouldn't really reprint) but does leave true Legacy in a format that can't be fully supported. If they can't make more Moxes, and they can't make Extended longer, how do older cards that can't reprint for Standard power level reasons ever get used? Simple - make a format where they can lock in power to a particular level - especially one where they can print FTV, and Duel decks with reprints of cards that people will want to play with. As long as they keep the chase cards to 1 per duel deck, or a couple to the FTV, and keep those products limited - the secondary market won't suffer too much - but they can infuse the environment with the appropriate cards.
As far as card availability, every set since Ice Age probably has enough product out there to make it viable, but by using the reserved list as a stopping point - they can't avoid the ridiculousness that is Urza's Block out of this environment (where Force of Will would be a necessity).
To the OP: Why do people believe this rumor? Because it makes a LOT of sense. It's not a wish or someone or a gotcha type thing. Masques wasn't super popular, but it does coincide with the end of the reserve list.
I'd love input and advice!
I would have thought that it would have been enough for Wizards to just clearly state that it was not going to reprint, even as foils, the really expensive cards, without giving up that particular exciting promotion - or otherwise make themselves look as though they are beholden to a small minority, or are being less than candid with their customers.
But because that statement would have excluded the original duals, the main controversy that this kicked up would not have been prevented.
Of course, starting with Masques makes sense for the second reason that it was the block after Urza block, as well as being the block after the end of the Reserved List.
It just seems like it goes hand-in-hand with online, cause EVERYTHING seems to have to go hand-in-hand with online.
:symu::symb::symr:Gwendlyn di Corci:symu::symb::symr:
:symw::symu::symb::symr::symg:Sliver Overlord:symw::symu::symb::symr::symg:
:symu::symr:Jhoria of the Ghitu:symu::symr:
Protection from [X] means:
1) It cannot be damaged by [X],
3) It cannot be blocked by [X] and
4) It cannot be targeted by [X].
You can Wrath of God a Black Knight and Damnation a White Knight.
The issue with Legacy is that the cost have begun to become prohibitive. Where old staples could be had at for $10 or so, today now are $20 and things like FoW are even more. Frankly, it annoys me to no end because a lot of this is due to Starcity tournaments. It's great for them and people that already own the cards, except that it begins to restrict the format to people that have substantial collections or have a lot of throw away cash. It just resets it back to Vintage all over again.
Wizard doesn't want to go back on their "word," so instead this one of the only compromises that makes sense. There's a critical mass point to where cards worth so much won't even see play any more, which I am quite sure is where a number of Power Nines are starting to head now. The same with any mint dual lands and so forth.
It's all demand and supply. One is exponentially going up, and the other is declining. While I do not expect cards to accrue in value like a Ty Cobb card, but I do expect them to increase to something where only people that have a bit of money can only play them. Vintage most certainly blocks a significant amount of people, Legacy will probably follow.
Ambition must be made to counteract ambition.
Individualities may form communities, but it is institutions alone that can create a nation.
Nothing succeeds like the appearance of success.
Here is my principle: Taxes shall be levied according to ability to pay. That is the only American principle.
For reference, here is a list of critical Legacy staples and their price tags.
Badlands: 41.38
Bayou: 52.54
Plateau: 38.46
Savannah: 44.03
Scrubland: 41.96
Taiga: 55.40
Tropical Island: 78.80
Tundra: 70.77
Underground Sea: 95.90
Eureka: 100 (price taken from SCG.com because magicinfo price seemed too high at 150)
Moat: 249.97
The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale: 374.49
Lion's Eye Diamond: 42.91
City of Traitors: 30.22
I have left a few cards off the list (Dreadnought, Dream Halls, Serra's Sanctum, Replenish) either because they are not as expensive as the above cards, are used only in certain decks, or are not wildly popular.
These cards are pretty darn expensive. The closest Standard competitors are Jace (a whopping 70 dollars), Gideon (50), Elspeth (50), and Baneslayer (50). Extended has Tarmogoyf (75) and Dark Depths (35). Legacy, on the other hand, has all of the above listed Reserve cards, in addition to the expensive, non-reserve staples (Wasteland, FoW, fetchlands, Tarmogoyf, Jitte, Entomb, Thoughtseize, Natural Order, etc.) These cards alone would make Legacy an impressively expensive format. Adding in the Reserved cards, however, makes it a true bank-buster.
Wizards has effectively put their foot down on the issue; the Reserve List is not getting changed, and none of the cards on it are coming off. This is bad news for Legacy. These Reserve List cards mentioned above are integral parts of many Legacy decks. In the case of the dual lands, they are relevant for ALL Legacy decks. As the format continues to age, the decks that use these cards will continue to gain popularity. With supply fixed and no new cards coming, prices will continue to rise as demand goes up.
All of this might sound a little alarmist. Financial trends, however, affirm this fear. Consider the following graphs of card prices. All data is taken from blacklotusproject, a site that compiles ebay prices. While the individual prices differ from the magic info ones, the trends are invaluable. It is extremely reasonable to assume that blacklotusproject, ebay-based trends translate to an internet-wide, dealer trend. Given this, our graphs below reveal some disturbing truths. Below each card, I have given the change in price between October 2008 and May 2010.
Badlands: http://blacklotusproject.com/cards/Revised+Edition/Badlands/
18.9 -> 28.88
Bayou: http://blacklotusproject.com/cards/Unlimited+Edition/Bayou/
21.4 -> 53.75
Plateau: http://blacklotusproject.com/cards/Revised+Edition/Plateau/
17.5 -> 29.96
Savannah: http://blacklotusproject.com/cards/Unlimited+Edition/Savannah/
23.92 -> 36.97
Scrubland: http://blacklotusproject.com/cards/Revised+Edition/Scrubland/
19.1 -> 29.41
Taiga: http://blacklotusproject.com/cards/Revised+Edition/Taiga/
21.83 -> 39.84
Tropical Island: http://blacklotusproject.com/cards/Revised+Edition/Tropical+Island/
25.9 -> 53.25
Tundra: http://blacklotusproject.com/cards/Unlimited+Edition/Tundra/
37.93 -> 59.52
Underground Sea: http://blacklotusproject.com/cards/Revised+Edition/Underground+Sea/
34.38 -> 70.10
Eureka: http://blacklotusproject.com/cards/Legends/Eureka/
18.9 -> 49.28
Moat: http://blacklotusproject.com/cards/Legends/Moat/
56.97 -> 134.91
The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale: http://blacklotusproject.com/cards/Legends/The+Tabernacle+at+Pendrell+Vale/
93.47 -> 239.09
Again, the BLP prices are on the low side because they use eBay data, and as we all know, there are lots of excellent bargains and total suckers on eBay to skew that data. The things to notice are not prices. We should instead focus on trends. All of the prices of the most played dual lands (Tropical Island, Tundra, Underground Sea) basically doubled in the sub-2 year period. They will continue to rise as more players enter Legacy and card supplies dwindle. If trends continue as is for another two years, dual lands will all be at least 70 dollars, with the most expensive hitting at least 120 dollars. Eureka, Moat, and Tabernacle will hit even more absurd levels as well.
Magic is an expensive game. This is true of all formats. The planeswalkers of Standard (plus Baneslayer) add up rather quickly, and a lot of Standard decks carry price tags comparable to some Legacy ones. But overall, the Legacy deck prices are far, far higher. ANT, Zoo, and Reanimator both cost just over 1000 each. CounterTop can cost as much as 1400. (Prices compiled from MagicInfo and SCG open decklists. If anyone doubts the work, I will happily show the compilation). Sure, Standard decks hit 700 (UW Control, UWR Walkers), but that pricetag won't get much higher. In another year, in fact, the whole deck will have rotated out of the format.
Legacy is an ETERNAL format, and its decks do not change much. Its staples also do not change much. Legacy Reserve List cards will continue their upward price trend, and will soon become flatly unavailable to new players. This creates economic discrepancies in decks that impact tournaments and format health as a whole.
How does the New Format fix things?
A new format would change this. Like Legacy, it would have established archetypes and established staples. Unlike Legacy, however, all cards could, and would, be reprinted. If prices got too high, Wizards could print new runs to encourage format health. Heck, if they didn't want to pollute Standard with power-creep cards, they could even do so in Master's and From the Vaults sets. Ravnica duals could easily be reprinted if the current stock could not satisfy demand. Indeed, Wizards might kick off the new format with a new set (maybe even M2011) with old staples reprinted.
The Reserve List is the biggest detriment to Legacy format health. With it now set in stone, Wizards must take action to preserve the Eternal formats. Vintage has failed. Legacy is failing. Only a new format will suffice to satiate players' appetites for the Eternal gameplay. Even those who do not yet see the pricing problem will change their mind in a year or two from now. Wizards would be wise to pre-empt that disaster.
-ktkenshinx-
Imo, to have something a little different and not have so many of these old staple cards to be "required" in a format, just have a new format using only the middle sets, lets say starting Urza's Saga up to the last set to be in Standard.
So no old, expensive cards is a must to have, and same with the newer cards.
2. i have a problem with how people treat "rumors". a rumor, by its nature, is not 100% confirmed true. thats why its a rumor. i imagine some people that get shady information from a source/sources don't post on the "rumor mill" becouse they know all the backlash they are going to get. are their trolls out there? of course, but its called a "rumor mill" for a reason. Its the job of the mods to determine who is trolling.
Anyway, remember that "troll" that posted the rumor about the priceless treasures?
Look, I agree with you that the Reserve List is bad news for Legacy, but a lot of this post is simply wrong.
None of these are critical staples. Eureka shows up in two decks that were totally rogue. It's a wacky Legends card. Moat is used as a one of in some Enchantress decks for marginal benefit (Elephant Grass usually does a better job at stifling aggro early on) and as a 4 of in Rich Man Stax, which is, as the name suggests, more a novelty build for the sake of showing off how rich one is, rather than a hyper-competitive build. And Tabernacle is an anomaly that could probably be banned from Legacy and hurt no-one.
This was only unbanned a little while ago. With combo starting to get scarily good, it and it's fellow un-bannees Entomb and Dream Halls might not be long for the format.
This one is a problem though. I don't see Wizards printing another stompy land to take it's place, and stompy decks are a big deal in Legacy.
No. They aren't. In fact many Legacy decks try to have as few non-basics as possible to avoid getting hit by Wasteland. And a lot of decks don't want lots of colors, so they have no need of duals. Here's a list of decks that usually use no duals.
-Merfolk Fish
-Goblins
-Aggro Elves
-White Stax
-Ichorid
-Dragon Stompy
-Imperial Painter
-Sea Stompy
-Mono-Black Aggro
-Pox
-Solidarity
-Ravager Affinity
-Mighty Quinn
-Burn
-FaerieNinjaStill
-Death and Taxes
-Nightmares
Here's some decks that use minimal duals or have alternative mana-bases
-Belcher (1 Bayou, 1 Taiga)
-Enchantress (Sometimes 1-2 Savannah and usually always 1 Taiga)
-Aggro Loam (2 Taiga, 1 Badlands, 1 Bayou)
-Spanish Inquisition (2 of any combination of Black Dual, depending on splash[es])
-Eva Green (3-4 Bayou)
-T.E.S. (sometimes does a "gold" manabase like Ichorid's)
Sure, some decks are Dual hogs, like Zoo, Countertop, and ANT, but most aren't. Most decks run under 4 duals or none at all. This isn't Standard where every deck will probably need 3-4 of the format relevant duals that are in colors.
You're assuming that Legacy player growth stays constant. What if something stifles that growth...like um....oh...I don't know...high prices? Standard not sucking for a season or two? Standard becoming fun and affordable? Extended actually being properly supported? Magic's boom hitting a bust?
Not exactly. Solidarity used to be top dog among combo. Now ANT and Spanish Inquisition are the most favorable in the metagame because faster combo is required.
Legacy does change with new cards. Imagine if a specific Dual hate card was printed...what might that do? Say...
Commissar's Curio
1 CMC
Artifact
As long as all lands do not share a basic land type, then lands with 2 or more basic land types don't untap during their controller's untap step.
Clunky because of Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, but it could do the trick, making duals a little more dangerous and making more manabases mostly fetches and basics, with maybe a few duals if the meta permits.
The point is, new cards can have a big effect, and the staples can change.
Wizards has never done anything like this in the past. Why do you make the enormous assumption that they would here? Where's the promo Goyfs that would solve so many price issues in Extended and Legacy? Why hasn't Force been reprinted in almost 15 years of steady use? Why do they ship us textless goddamn Cancel instead of those nice Chrome Mox and Jitte promos you have to fly across the globe to get?
This assumption could go far to crack down on Legacy prices too. Drop a ton of new Goyfs, Wastelands, and Forces into the player's hands and Legacy becomes much cheaper.
Nope. It's rampant speculation and high demand, the same things that make Magic unnecessarily expensive across all constructed formats. I guarantee if Overextended becomes a reality, and a heavily in-demand format a la Legacy (rumore PTQ support would do that), it will be just almost as expensive as Legacy within a season, barring a mile long ban list or Wizards bending over backwards to flood the market with every staple (again...not gonna happen).
My implication was not that Eureka/Tabernacle/Moat were cards that are integral to Legacy as a format. They are just integral to certain decks that use them. Because of this, only extremely wealthy players can run these decks. We are in agreement, however, on both LED and City.
I agree that some decks do not use duals. Unfortunately, many of these decks are just bad and see little to no play (Fish, Dredge, and Goblins being the notable exceptions). The majority of good, prevalent decks use duals. Not an insane number, but a prohibitive number.
-ANT
-Reanimator
-Zoo
-Countertop
-NO Bant
-Aggro Loam (I firmly disagree with you on this. Most run at least 5, which is roughly the same as all the others on this list)
-Canadian Threshold
-43/38 Lands
-Team America
These are the big dogs in Legacy, not Elves, White Weenie, Burn, Pox, etc. While those decks exist in the format to varying extents, they do not show up at the top of events. For those who doubt this, I point you to the following information gathered on The Source:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?5460-DTBF-Philosophy-Deck-Selection&p=423815&viewfull=1#post423815
To summarize, the biggest Legacy decks are...
-Countertop
-Merfolk
-Tempo Thresh
-Ant
-Zoo
On that list, only Merfolk does not use duals. The others are notorious for their reliance on dual lands in their manabase (ANT to a lesser extent than the rest). The bottom line is clear: Legacy decks are dependent on Duals and they define the format. Some decks do not need them, but many of these decks are just of a lesser quality than the best, dual-intensive beasts.
Wizards wants a functional Eternal format. The point of the new format would be to create an Eternal environment that was not stifled by all of these possible factors.
Because it would be a huge marketing move. Imagine if they announced a new format simultaneously with a huge, M11 "New Format Staples" print run? Sales would be outrageously high, Wizards would make a lot of money, and players would be happy. Let's not get into the economic nuances of supply and demand here, because as far as I know, none of us are intimately and academically familiar with the Wizards marketing model. What we do know is that they want popular formats and they want high sales. Reprinting staples to facilitate their new format could easily boost its popularity and have a minimal Standard impact (Depending on the reprinted cards).
As to Wizards past reprinting decisions, they clearly acknowledge that they were unwise. Their big fuss about the Reserve List is a testament to this, and while they had to back down on it for unclear reasons, they made a real effort to learn about what the players wanted. If they continue this practice, they will work towards player demand and enjoyment. A new format would be a step in the right direction.
That would solve the Goyf/Wasteland/FoW problem, but not the dual problem. Why would Wizards want to support an inherently damage format (courtesy of the Reserve List)? It seems like it would be much smarter to gradually pull back format support and shift it to something new and more popular.
Prices will certainly go up for key staples, that much is clear. But an intelligent Wizards reprinting run with some of those staples (Onsalught Fetchlands and Ravnica duals) would make this bearable. Unlike Reserve List staples, they CAN reprint these cards. Unlike with the damaged Legacy format, they have every incentive to do so in an effort to support their new creation.
I would just love to hear an argument against the following Wizards model:
1. Announce a new format
2. Release M11 as the new format pilot, full of reprinted staples
2B. Alternately, release a few Masters/Planeswalkers/From the Vaults sets with these staples reprinted in them. (a worse option)
3. Announce a Pro season for the format, set to launch in Autumn.
The internet and real-life hype would be huge, and if Wizards could deliver the cards alongside the format, the payoff would be massive. This is true for both Wizards/Hasbro as a company, and players as a gaming population.
-ktkenshinx-
Maybe it's me, but besides Moat and the Tabernacle, none of the goofy expensive old cards seem like they have any sort of serious deck penetration. Yeah, Eureka showed up in some new deck trying to cheat an Emrakul into play...I don't see the big deal. It's not a Tier 1 deck by any stretch of the imagination, so there's not a lot of worry. Pretty much no player could afford to run BlackStaxx with 4x The Abyss, 4x Chains of Mephistopheles, 4x Nether Void, 4x Guardian Beast, and 4x Juzam Djinn. I think the issue is more when serious staples become expensive, which would be Moat and Tabernacle.
Tabernacle could probably see a ban just on the grounds that it is close to a "free", uncounterable Pendrell Mists. And if Wizards was willing to support an Eternal format at the cost of rotating ones, a new Moat variant could easily be printed. Make it cost more, or make it do additional things. Su-Chi was reserved, but that didn't stop Wizards from printing Cathodion. The thing is, I don't think Eternal formats really matter to them, so they wouldn't care.
Yeah...these are problems, seeing as all Stompy/Stax decks need Cities and most combo decks need LEDs.
Alright, I'll give you that a lot of good decks do use duals. But I don't think Legacy is necessarily have duals or go home like a lot make it out to be. Maybe it's because I'm not super-competitive, but I disagree that many good, solid decks cannot be made without duals. Not every meta is completely developed. And certain Tier 1.5 or Tier 2 decks can be great meta choices too. Sure, if you're going to big tournaments you probably want a Tier 1 deck, but at that level of competition Magic is expensive; see Standard decks in upwards of 700 dollars (with some single, in-print cards going for as much or more than most duals). But most players are not super-competitive, and those that are will foot the bill. That's how Magic has pretty much always been.
This is where I'm in a bit of disagreement...I don't think Wizards wants a thriving Eternal format...in paper at least.
You and I probably wish it was like that. Fact is, Wizards has never, and likely will never, directly focus marketing on the tournament player demographic. Their biggest source of revenue is casual players. Rosewater and crew say this all the time. It kinda sucks, but what can we do?
Yes they do, but Standard and Limited, Wizards bread and butter, are both doing "great" (in terms of sales) and they don't want other formats, that don't pump as much guaranteed cash into Wizards coffers, siphoning players away from them.
First off, they'd be just as inclined to support Legacy as they would this new format in terms of helping the players. Second off, they have no idea whether or not Overextended would actually be popular. What if Legacy players don't make the switch? What if new players don't care? What if Overextended becomes as much of a black sheep as regular Extended?
But they won't. It's their policy to not formally acknowledge the secondary market, much less design around it. And prices will shoot up if this has anywhere close to the popularity of Legacy, even more so if it has PTQ and PT support. It won't be affordable, popular "Legacy-Lite" after a short bit of time. Demand drives prices, and Wizards couldn't even keep up with the market if they wanted. Their printing schedules are planned out at least a year in advance. The meta changes quick, and with rampant speculation driving any cards to outrageous prices, there isn't much that can be done.
I can give a few.
Why market M11 on this new, untested format when they can pretty much guarantee sales by throwing Baneslayer Angel and Elspeth in, along with some other power-creep Mythics and be essentially printing money?
Oddly enough, around the same time Wizards locked down on the Reserve List, a funny thing happened...Legacy support went online in MTGO, where the list doesn't apply. Coincidence? I don't think so. An Eternal format where they can directly profit off of the sales of cards, and easily, as well as get Eternal players looking for other players to have to buy all their cards again.
Sure they do. An Eternal format is one of the best "free" player-retention tools you can have. As long as it doesn't outshine Standard, having an Eternal format is a very good thing for a game as popular and old as Magic.
They spend a ton of money marketing to tournament players. The entire budget for the Pro Tour is a promotional expense.