So rather than fixing the problem (which is older cards being inaccessible) they create new formats without that problem. Continuously. until we get to the point where there are so many formats that are unsupported, that its ridiculous.
Instead of fixing the problem, you are buying time until it becomes a problem again. Solely to appease a distinct minority of players who were dumb enough to expect a game to behave like an investment bond.
Reprinting the cards the way you want them to is just "buying time until it becomes a problem again."
Plus it creates the problem that I've been citing the whole time. If suddenly thousands (or more, depending on how things are handled) of tournament players get access to the eternal formats all at once, how many of them are going to want to play Standard? Also, now that so many more people have access to the eternal formats developing sets will have to be changed to account for the huge jump in interest for those formats (if that's what everyone is playing, sets made just for Standard/block won't sell very well).
Reprinting the cards the way you want them to is just "buying time until it becomes a problem again."
howso? How is allowing the reprinting of cards "buying time" until we run out of cards again? It's kind of the opposite of that problem, anytime it starts to run short WotC makes more. The issue is taht people think that it will result in other problems.
Plus it creates the problem that I've been citing the whole time. If suddenly thousands (or more, depending on how things are handled) of tournament players get access to the eternal formats all at once, how many of them are going to want to play Standard?
That depends on why they play. If they play "to win the big one" -- All of them. Becuase you have to play standard to win the big one. If they play to have fun -- some of them will some won't, but a lot of the fun in the game is buying new cards.
I don't think standard will magically reduce to almost non-existant -- even if they released a box set of "all reserve list cards X4 for only $1.00!". that would kill the secondary market for those cards, yes, but it wouldn't kill standard.
Also, now that so many more people have access to the eternal formats developing sets will have to be changed to account for the huge jump in interest for those formats (if that's what everyone is playing, sets made just for Standard/block won't sell very well).
I don't buy your assumption that standard will "die" if people have access to eternal formats.
And as long as those expensive cards are the fundamental resource which you NEED to play the game, those people are justified in their *****ing. I'm not seeing how you don't understand this...
Land should not be what costs a deck money. the cards that make the deck should. Land should be ancillary to your deck building decisions. It shouldn't go "I have access to this land, so I'm going to build this deck" It should go "I'm going to build this deck, let me get the land I need for it."
Here's my stance: Either the dual lands should be made common enough that none of them cost more than $15.00 or they should be banned entirely from the format.
Otherwise the format cannot grow. If the format is allowed to stagnate and die, then faith in the product also wanes. This results in player retention problems. This, in turn, is bad for the game.
While I agree that the basic neccesities of the game shouldn't be the most expensive part (obviously) I think wanting dual lands for 15.00 is unreasonable. Manabases have always been expensive, and always will be, specifically BECAUSE you need lands to play the game. Dual lands are the best multicolor lands ever printed. It's only reasonable that people charge a lot of money for them. Though I agree this monetary value should be determined by the usefulness of the card, not by the short supply.
EDIT: @misterpid: Yeah, just cause people can play eternals doesn't mean they won't play standard. Seriously, what's keeping them from playing both? I know I would if I could afford it. (And in fact, I sort of do... I bounce back and forth between standard and Legacy, depending on what I feel like putting my money towards at the time)
"I am confident that if anyone actually
penetrates our facades, even the most
perceptive would still be fundamentally
unprepared for the truth of House Dimir."
And as long as those expensive cards are the fundamental resource which you NEED to play the game, those people are justified in their *****ing. I'm not seeing how you don't understand this...
Land should not be what costs a deck money. the cards that make the deck should. Land should be ancillary to your deck building decisions. It shouldn't go "I have access to this land, so I'm going to build this deck" It should go "I'm going to build this deck, let me get the land I need for it."
Here's my stance: Either the dual lands should be made common enough that none of them cost more than $15.00 or they should be banned entirely from the format.
Otherwise the format cannot grow. If the format is allowed to stagnate and die, then faith in the product also wanes. This results in player retention problems. This, in turn, is bad for the game.
I get your point. No need to shout. The last couple posts I've made suggested a new format where the revised duals were banned. Maybe I wasn't entirely clear.
Although I should really point out that the last few times I went to a Standard tournament, my friend and I sat down, pulled out our lands, and said "Okay, these are the Ravnica duals we've got. What can we build around them?" Good mana sources (written to include the moxen and lotus) being stupidly expensive isn't an isolated incident in Legacy. Your manabase is expensive no matter what format you play. How much for the Verdant Catacombs or the Rootbound Crags?
There is no tone on the internet, so I want to explicitly state that I am being serious and earnest and not at all trying to bait you, nor am I trying to be a troll: You've pointed out what you see as a serious flaw with the game - a good manabase is ridiculously expensive. I agree with you that this is a barrier to competitive play. How can WOTC fix that? Not just for older formats, but for Standard as well? Should they stop printing new rare duals and just give us the comes-into-play-tapped duals in the basic set? Or should they just reprint the same 5 duals over and over in the basic set until everybody has them (a la Wrath of God and Birds of Paradise)?
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Yes i play legacy, but i also play type 2 because at the shop i play at we play legacy, and test my type 2 deck there. Two of my friends there own power, If we wanted to we could do vintage, but it would only help those two players. So we nixed the idea. I think that wizards should do a promotion for a certian block. Have a priceless treasures II this time the only treasures are power 9
howso? How is allowing the reprinting of cards "buying time" until we run out of cards again? It's kind of the opposite of that problem, anytime it starts to run short WotC makes more. The issue is taht people think that it will result in other problems.
What happens when people who didn't have acces to the reprints want to start playing older formats?
I don't think standard will magically reduce to almost non-existant -- even if they released a box set of "all reserve list cards X4 for only $1.00!". that would kill the secondary market for those cards, yes, but it wouldn't kill standard.
I don't buy your assumption that standard will "die" if people have access to eternal formats.
If you suddenly had access to Vintage and Legacy would you just be happy to know you could play those formats or would you actually want to go out and play them? What would be your format of choice if you had to choose only one (assuming there were equal opportunities for tournament play in all formats)?
If you suddenly had access to Vintage and Legacy would you just be happy to know you could play those formats or would you actually want to go out and play them? What would be your format of choice if you had to choose only one (assuming there were equal opportunities for tournament play in all formats)?
I don't think I would ever play Vintage on the tournament level. I've owned just about every card ever (Had all the power, haven't had random things like Cyclopean Tomb) and never had any desire to play Vintage because it just seemed like such a terrible and extremely broken/luck based format. However, I'd love to have a set of power and dual lands again for multiplayer and for if I'm ever qualified for a Legacy PTQ (obviously just the duals for that, not the power)
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"Wizards could put $100 bills in packs and people would complain about how they're folded.". - Dr. Jeebus
I'm going on record right now and stating that before the end of 2012 we will see foil dual lands in booster packs (The real, Alpha dual lands). You can quote me on that.
There is no tone on the internet, so I want to explicitly state that I am being serious and earnest and not at all trying to bait you, nor am I trying to be a troll: You've pointed out what you see as a serious flaw with the game - a good manabase is ridiculously expensive. I agree with you that this is a barrier to competitive play. How can WOTC fix that? Not just for older formats, but for Standard as well? Should they stop printing new rare duals and just give us the comes-into-play-tapped duals in the basic set? Or should they just reprint the same 5 duals over and over in the basic set until everybody has them (a la Wrath of God and Birds of Paradise)?
We have a winner.
They did do that for a while with the pain lands. By the end you could find pain lands from $6-10 (depending on colour) while they were still in standard. This was a good thing.
My personal opinion? If a land does nothing other than produce a single mana, it should not be rare. Ever. I recognize thats not going to happen though, because WotC has established the game as having the fundamental resource being the money rares for every block. Lands that do stuff, I'm ok with them at rare, because then you're not using it for its resource potential only, but also the other aspect.
I mean really, there is no "power level" reason why dual lands need to be at the rare slot. It's strictly a monetary issue. Its not a huge deal when there are a lot available and they can be acquired for reasonable prices, but when they can't be and are scarce its a problem.
What happens when people who didn't have acces to the reprints want to start playing older formats?
You seem to be confused by what I'm advocating. I'm not advocating a one shot deal to up the number temporarily. By taking them off the reserve list they can be reprinted ad-nauseum. If the supply starts running low, WotC can print more. There would be nothing stopping them.
My personal opinion? If a land does nothing other than produce a single mana, it should not be rare. Ever. I recognize thats not going to happen though, because WotC has established the game as having the fundamental resource being the money rares for every block. Lands that do stuff, I'm ok with them at rare, because then you're not using it for its resource potential only, but also the other aspect.
I mean really, there is no "power level" reason why dual lands need to be at the rare slot. It's strictly a monetary issue. Its not a huge deal when there are a lot available and they can be acquired for reasonable prices, but when they can't be and are scarce its a problem.
If it's not due to their power, then why does everybody want/need them? If there were lands better than the duals, wouldn't people be playing them instead of the duals? Just because they're lands doesn't mean they're not insanely powerful.
You seem to be confused by what I'm advocating. I'm not advocating a one shot deal to up the number temporarily. By taking them off the reserve list they can be reprinted ad-nauseum. If the supply starts running low, WotC can print more. There would be nothing stopping them.
Again, what you're advocating is for WotC to push Legacy in a way that would definitely cause interest in Standard to shrink. What would be the incentive to play Standard? Do you think that there wouldn't be tons of people itching to play in as many Legacy tourneys as possible now that they have the ability to do so?
EDIT: @misterpid: Yeah, just cause people can play eternals doesn't mean they won't play standard. Seriously, what's keeping them from playing both? I know I would if I could afford it. (And in fact, I sort of do... I bounce back and forth between standard and Legacy, depending on what I feel like putting my money towards at the time)
If there were an equal number of Standard and Legacy tourneys around would you bounce back and forth? Do you think everybody would bounce back and forth like that if they had the cards to do it and there were equal number of tourneys in each format?
Also, you're getting back to the main issue here - the cost of being able to play whatever format you want at any given time is restricting you from doing it.
If it's not due to their power, then why does everybody want/need them? If there were lands better than the duals, wouldn't people be playing them instead of the duals? Just because they're lands doesn't mean they're not insanely powerful.
I think that he's saying that they're so powerful that they're necessary, but that cards of that power level don't have to be rare (see: Lightning Bolt, Path to Exile). If the duals were uncommon, like the Invasion duals were, would that be a problem? bLatch's answer is no, it would not be a problem. The only reason that they are rare is because of WOTC's history of making good duals rare. They'd still be powerful, they'd just be uncommon.
I think, and I hope that this isn't too "conspiracy theory" for everyone, that they're rare precisely because people see them as necessary. People will open so many boosters looking for that sexy dual land, because they know how good a consistent manabase is. If the lands were more common, people would buy fewer boosters before they got their playsets, and the game wouldn't sell as well. Cards like Bitterblossom or Elspeth, Knight Errant are great if you're playing the deck that supports them. But everybody plays duals (except for that one guy who plays Magus of the Moon).
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I'd expect that the reserve list itself will be unchanged, but the interpretation of the reserve list's allowance for reprints be re-interpreted. I think we'll see a reserve list reprint in almost every FTV, Duel Decks and Premium Deck collection release henceforth. We still won't see those reserved cards that completely warp formats, but we will start to see reprints of those cards that were set aside by association, not by necessity.
I'd expect that the reserve list itself will be unchanged, but the interpretation of the reserve list's allowance for reprints be re-interpreted. I think we'll see a reserve list reprint in almost every FTV, Duel Decks and Premium Deck collection release henceforth. We still won't see those reserved cards that completely warp formats, but we will start to see reprints of those cards that were set aside by association, not by necessity.
The problem with your prediction is that if they open up the foil loophole and say "Yeah, we're going to print some reserved cards in foil in these limited release decks," then that pretty much eliminates the reserve list, because they now have free rein to reprint whatever they want, and it only prevents them from doing a Chronicles II type set, which, if they end up creating new formats, might be a great idea. It doesn't give them enough freedom to make new stuff (remember, the loophole says foil, so for Duel Deck it'd have to be the mythic [or they could randomly foil one of the rares, I guess]. Planechase and Archenemy sets don't have foils [yet], so that leaves FTV and PDS as their real "wiggle room" products), but it carries all the loss of confidence that completely cutting the reserve list does.
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The problem with your prediction is that if they open up the foil loophole and say "Yeah, we're going to print some reserved cards in foil in these limited release decks," then that pretty much eliminates the reserve list, because they now have free rein to reprint whatever they want, and it only prevents them from doing a Chronicles II type set, which, if they end up creating new formats, might be a great idea. It doesn't give them enough freedom to make new stuff (remember, the loophole says foil, so for Duel Deck it'd have to be the mythic [or they could randomly foil one of the rares, I guess]. Planechase and Archenemy sets don't have foils [yet], so that leaves FTV and PDS as their real "wiggle room" products), but it carries all the loss of confidence that completely cutting the reserve list does.
Precisely. Using the foil loophole includes all the elements of "breaking a promise" that WotC have claimed they want to avoid (even moreso since if they did it now they'd be in the position of having to explain explicit statements by WotC staffers saying that the RL does apply to foil products, thereby exposing that they were at best making misleading statements either way) but doesn't actually carry almost any of the beneficial aspects of eliminating or scaling back the list.
Precisely. Using the foil loophole includes all the elements of "breaking a promise" that WotC have claimed they want to avoid (even moreso since if they did it now they'd be in the position of having to explain explicit statements by WotC staffers saying that the RL does apply to foil products, thereby exposing that they were at best making misleading statements either way) but doesn't actually carry almost any of the beneficial aspects of eliminating or scaling back the list.
Didn't they print a foil Yawgmoth's Will as a judge prize? That's on the reserved list, but I have yet to see anyone mention it here.
Didn't they print a foil Yawgmoth's Will as a judge prize? That's on the reserved list, but I have yet to see anyone mention it here.
Yawg Will, Survival of the Fittest, Gaea's Cradle - yes, they've printed judge promos that have not been for sale. They're clear about the "not for sale" loophole and that they will exploit it. It's the foil loophole through which they seem to be trying to slip Negator that's the issue.
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Yawg Will, Survival of the Fittest, Gaea's Cradle - yes, they've printed judge promos that have not been for sale. They're clear about the "not for sale" loophole and that they will exploit it. It's the foil loophole through which they seem to be trying to slip Negator that's the issue.
I like the idea of an FTV set (or two, the ones I brought up) being exclusive prizes not for sale.
Because they didn't reprint the card for a playable format. By now members should see they go around things kind of funky so that the YG magic players can have their shinning foils....I know, what's next a Lotus? Retoricle...
Didn't they print a foil Yawgmoth's Will as a judge prize? That's on the reserved list, but I have yet to see anyone mention it here.
We can call it Standard or Extended...Horrible idea never the less. With that another formant is welcome....but really what kind of angle do they have to create one? Oh I know one with a complex combat system for players that have the knowledge of a 3 card stack...or maybe one with mana burn...damn it we had those....shoot now I'm addressing rules...my bad!
I get your point. No need to shout. The last couple posts I've made suggested a new format where the revised duals were banned. Maybe I wasn't entirely clear.
One day the world is going to hell Al said, so you can bet when we all hear the news it's time...WoTC will throw out the Reserved list....until then just because it's not updated means nothing. They know it's there, and love the idea of the fuss we make...when we want them touch it.
S.M.
You know what, I could stand Duals at $20-$30. But $70? For the white-bordered version? Ick. I'd pay the cost if it was even slightly less repulsive, but it's not.
And BTW, I just want to say something. Too many of you think "you can just play standard" or "if you can't afford it, go home" and frankly, that's insulting. To be limited by your wallet in a game that I'm not even trying to invest in (the only time I sell cards is to my local store, so I can buy more cards) is pretty suckish. And not in a "Well, damn...." kind of way, but in a demoralizing kind of way that honestly makes you question if you should even bother playing the game. And I'm still holding out some hope that WotC cares about that, and doesn't want us leaving the game whether we play T2 or T1.5.
There's a bunch of cards on the Reserve List (I'm thinking of you, Living Death) that would go up in price significantly if reprinted in a Standard-legal set.
Living Death would probably be a $15 mythic (maybe more), yet at the moment you can buy a playset on Ebay for around $15.
I'd like to see them change the rules as follows:
1) Extremely high value cards cannot be reprinted in any for-sale WotC product. Any reprints must be white bordered, and can be reprinted only as promos and no more than 10% of the original printrun can be printed in one year (so if there's 17300 Black Lotuses in print, they could print 1730 at most in a year, and they could only be awarded as promos).
2) Other cards from the current Reserve List may be reprinted in Standard-legal sets, but must always be with new art and at a higher rarity than their first printing. (So Thunder Spirit 'could' be reprinted as a mythic rare, which, of course, it would not be). They may also be printed in promo packs.
3) As prizes for significant tournaments (PT, Worlds, etc), newly printed Revised dual lands with modern text should be awarded - full *foil* playsets for finishes that are deep in the money, single non-foil copies for high non-money finishes.
I like the idea of an FTV set (or two, the ones I brought up) being exclusive prizes not for sale.
Wow. Those are some pretty sick vaults.
Typically Vintage tourneys give away some piece of power or similarly expensive card as a prize. But let's say that they decide to do this. It doesn't remotely solve the problem, which, if I may borrow a phrase, is "Power to the people". If there were only a few of these power FTVs printed, and they were given out as prizes, it doesn't make the average man-on-the-street any happier. How is power now available to him? These things would probably command prices equivalent to the originals, unless they were used as FNM promos. It doesn't make it any easier to get into Vintage.
This is another idea that scraps the reserve list and reaps none of the benefits of doing so.
There's a bunch of cards on the Reserve List (I'm thinking of you, Living Death) that would go up in price significantly if reprinted in a Standard-legal set.
Living Death would probably be a $15 mythic (maybe more), yet at the moment you can buy a playset on Ebay for around $15.
I'd like to see them change the rules as follows:
1) Extremely high value cards cannot be reprinted in any for-sale WotC product. Any reprints must be white bordered, and can be reprinted only as promos and no more than 10% of the original printrun can be printed in one year (so if there's 17300 Black Lotuses in print, they could print 1730 at most in a year, and they could only be awarded as promos).
2) Other cards from the current Reserve List may be reprinted in Standard-legal sets, but must always be with new art and at a higher rarity than their first printing. (So Thunder Spirit 'could' be reprinted as a mythic rare, which, of course, it would not be). They may also be printed in promo packs.
3) As prizes for significant tournaments (PT, Worlds, etc), newly printed Revised dual lands with modern text should be awarded - full *foil* playsets for finishes that are deep in the money, single non-foil copies for high non-money finishes.
I don't think you have to worry about extremely high value cards being printed that much. Of course, even if they did print them, they wouldn't fall off the price map or anything. Berserk didn't even have much of a problem and it isn't even played much.
The printing reserved list cards in standard only as mythic is honestly stupid. It would be practically irrelevant since there's only a handful of cards on the list that would be mythic worthy by what we've seen so far. Infact, there's probably more cards on there that should have a rarity demotion to common or uncommon. There's even simple limited filler on there.
Typically Vintage tourneys give away some piece of power or similarly expensive card as a prize. But let's say that they decide to do this. It doesn't remotely solve the problem, which, if I may borrow a phrase, is "Power to the people". If there were only a few of these power FTVs printed, and they were given out as prizes, it doesn't make the average man-on-the-street any happier. How is power now available to him? These things would probably command prices equivalent to the originals, unless they were used as FNM promos. It doesn't make it any easier to get into Vintage.
This is another idea that scraps the reserve list and reaps none of the benefits of doing so.
I didn't mean just vintage tournaments... I was referring to Legacy, Pro Tour, Grand Prix and the like. Even singles could be given as prizes at FNM.
Yawg Will, Survival of the Fittest, Gaea's Cradle - yes, they've printed judge promos that have not been for sale. They're clear about the "not for sale" loophole and that they will exploit it. It's the foil loophole through which they seem to be trying to slip Negator that's the issue.
Yes, they've been printing cards from the reserved list not for sale, but they've been using the foil loophole to do it, not a "not for sale" loophole. The reprint policy doesn't mention "for sale" anywhere.
Reprinting the cards the way you want them to is just "buying time until it becomes a problem again."
Plus it creates the problem that I've been citing the whole time. If suddenly thousands (or more, depending on how things are handled) of tournament players get access to the eternal formats all at once, how many of them are going to want to play Standard? Also, now that so many more people have access to the eternal formats developing sets will have to be changed to account for the huge jump in interest for those formats (if that's what everyone is playing, sets made just for Standard/block won't sell very well).
howso? How is allowing the reprinting of cards "buying time" until we run out of cards again? It's kind of the opposite of that problem, anytime it starts to run short WotC makes more. The issue is taht people think that it will result in other problems.
That depends on why they play. If they play "to win the big one" -- All of them. Becuase you have to play standard to win the big one. If they play to have fun -- some of them will some won't, but a lot of the fun in the game is buying new cards.
I don't think standard will magically reduce to almost non-existant -- even if they released a box set of "all reserve list cards X4 for only $1.00!". that would kill the secondary market for those cards, yes, but it wouldn't kill standard.
I don't buy your assumption that standard will "die" if people have access to eternal formats.
While I agree that the basic neccesities of the game shouldn't be the most expensive part (obviously) I think wanting dual lands for 15.00 is unreasonable. Manabases have always been expensive, and always will be, specifically BECAUSE you need lands to play the game. Dual lands are the best multicolor lands ever printed. It's only reasonable that people charge a lot of money for them. Though I agree this monetary value should be determined by the usefulness of the card, not by the short supply.
EDIT: @misterpid: Yeah, just cause people can play eternals doesn't mean they won't play standard. Seriously, what's keeping them from playing both? I know I would if I could afford it. (And in fact, I sort of do... I bounce back and forth between standard and Legacy, depending on what I feel like putting my money towards at the time)
"I am confident that if anyone actually
penetrates our facades, even the most
perceptive would still be fundamentally
unprepared for the truth of House Dimir."
I get your point. No need to shout. The last couple posts I've made suggested a new format where the revised duals were banned. Maybe I wasn't entirely clear.
Although I should really point out that the last few times I went to a Standard tournament, my friend and I sat down, pulled out our lands, and said "Okay, these are the Ravnica duals we've got. What can we build around them?" Good mana sources (written to include the moxen and lotus) being stupidly expensive isn't an isolated incident in Legacy. Your manabase is expensive no matter what format you play. How much for the Verdant Catacombs or the Rootbound Crags?
There is no tone on the internet, so I want to explicitly state that I am being serious and earnest and not at all trying to bait you, nor am I trying to be a troll: You've pointed out what you see as a serious flaw with the game - a good manabase is ridiculously expensive. I agree with you that this is a barrier to competitive play. How can WOTC fix that? Not just for older formats, but for Standard as well? Should they stop printing new rare duals and just give us the comes-into-play-tapped duals in the basic set? Or should they just reprint the same 5 duals over and over in the basic set until everybody has them (a la Wrath of God and Birds of Paradise)?
What happens when people who didn't have acces to the reprints want to start playing older formats?
If you suddenly had access to Vintage and Legacy would you just be happy to know you could play those formats or would you actually want to go out and play them? What would be your format of choice if you had to choose only one (assuming there were equal opportunities for tournament play in all formats)?
I don't think I would ever play Vintage on the tournament level. I've owned just about every card ever (Had all the power, haven't had random things like Cyclopean Tomb) and never had any desire to play Vintage because it just seemed like such a terrible and extremely broken/luck based format. However, I'd love to have a set of power and dual lands again for multiplayer and for if I'm ever qualified for a Legacy PTQ (obviously just the duals for that, not the power)
"Wizards could put $100 bills in packs and people would complain about how they're folded.". - Dr. Jeebus
We have a winner.
They did do that for a while with the pain lands. By the end you could find pain lands from $6-10 (depending on colour) while they were still in standard. This was a good thing.
My personal opinion? If a land does nothing other than produce a single mana, it should not be rare. Ever. I recognize thats not going to happen though, because WotC has established the game as having the fundamental resource being the money rares for every block. Lands that do stuff, I'm ok with them at rare, because then you're not using it for its resource potential only, but also the other aspect.
I mean really, there is no "power level" reason why dual lands need to be at the rare slot. It's strictly a monetary issue. Its not a huge deal when there are a lot available and they can be acquired for reasonable prices, but when they can't be and are scarce its a problem.
You seem to be confused by what I'm advocating. I'm not advocating a one shot deal to up the number temporarily. By taking them off the reserve list they can be reprinted ad-nauseum. If the supply starts running low, WotC can print more. There would be nothing stopping them.
If it's not due to their power, then why does everybody want/need them? If there were lands better than the duals, wouldn't people be playing them instead of the duals? Just because they're lands doesn't mean they're not insanely powerful.
Again, what you're advocating is for WotC to push Legacy in a way that would definitely cause interest in Standard to shrink. What would be the incentive to play Standard? Do you think that there wouldn't be tons of people itching to play in as many Legacy tourneys as possible now that they have the ability to do so?
If there were an equal number of Standard and Legacy tourneys around would you bounce back and forth? Do you think everybody would bounce back and forth like that if they had the cards to do it and there were equal number of tourneys in each format?
Also, you're getting back to the main issue here - the cost of being able to play whatever format you want at any given time is restricting you from doing it.
I think that he's saying that they're so powerful that they're necessary, but that cards of that power level don't have to be rare (see: Lightning Bolt, Path to Exile). If the duals were uncommon, like the Invasion duals were, would that be a problem? bLatch's answer is no, it would not be a problem. The only reason that they are rare is because of WOTC's history of making good duals rare. They'd still be powerful, they'd just be uncommon.
I think, and I hope that this isn't too "conspiracy theory" for everyone, that they're rare precisely because people see them as necessary. People will open so many boosters looking for that sexy dual land, because they know how good a consistent manabase is. If the lands were more common, people would buy fewer boosters before they got their playsets, and the game wouldn't sell as well. Cards like Bitterblossom or Elspeth, Knight Errant are great if you're playing the deck that supports them. But everybody plays duals (except for that one guy who plays Magus of the Moon).
The problem with your prediction is that if they open up the foil loophole and say "Yeah, we're going to print some reserved cards in foil in these limited release decks," then that pretty much eliminates the reserve list, because they now have free rein to reprint whatever they want, and it only prevents them from doing a Chronicles II type set, which, if they end up creating new formats, might be a great idea. It doesn't give them enough freedom to make new stuff (remember, the loophole says foil, so for Duel Deck it'd have to be the mythic [or they could randomly foil one of the rares, I guess]. Planechase and Archenemy sets don't have foils [yet], so that leaves FTV and PDS as their real "wiggle room" products), but it carries all the loss of confidence that completely cutting the reserve list does.
Precisely. Using the foil loophole includes all the elements of "breaking a promise" that WotC have claimed they want to avoid (even moreso since if they did it now they'd be in the position of having to explain explicit statements by WotC staffers saying that the RL does apply to foil products, thereby exposing that they were at best making misleading statements either way) but doesn't actually carry almost any of the beneficial aspects of eliminating or scaling back the list.
Didn't they print a foil Yawgmoth's Will as a judge prize? That's on the reserved list, but I have yet to see anyone mention it here.
Yawg Will, Survival of the Fittest, Gaea's Cradle - yes, they've printed judge promos that have not been for sale. They're clear about the "not for sale" loophole and that they will exploit it. It's the foil loophole through which they seem to be trying to slip Negator that's the issue.
I like the idea of an FTV set (or two, the ones I brought up) being exclusive prizes not for sale.
We can call it Standard or Extended...Horrible idea never the less. With that another formant is welcome....but really what kind of angle do they have to create one? Oh I know one with a complex combat system for players that have the knowledge of a 3 card stack...or maybe one with mana burn...damn it we had those....shoot now I'm addressing rules...my bad!
One day the world is going to hell Al said, so you can bet when we all hear the news it's time...WoTC will throw out the Reserved list....until then just because it's not updated means nothing. They know it's there, and love the idea of the fuss we make...when we want them touch it.
S.M.
And BTW, I just want to say something. Too many of you think "you can just play standard" or "if you can't afford it, go home" and frankly, that's insulting. To be limited by your wallet in a game that I'm not even trying to invest in (the only time I sell cards is to my local store, so I can buy more cards) is pretty suckish. And not in a "Well, damn...." kind of way, but in a demoralizing kind of way that honestly makes you question if you should even bother playing the game. And I'm still holding out some hope that WotC cares about that, and doesn't want us leaving the game whether we play T2 or T1.5.
Living Death would probably be a $15 mythic (maybe more), yet at the moment you can buy a playset on Ebay for around $15.
I'd like to see them change the rules as follows:
1) Extremely high value cards cannot be reprinted in any for-sale WotC product. Any reprints must be white bordered, and can be reprinted only as promos and no more than 10% of the original printrun can be printed in one year (so if there's 17300 Black Lotuses in print, they could print 1730 at most in a year, and they could only be awarded as promos).
2) Other cards from the current Reserve List may be reprinted in Standard-legal sets, but must always be with new art and at a higher rarity than their first printing. (So Thunder Spirit 'could' be reprinted as a mythic rare, which, of course, it would not be). They may also be printed in promo packs.
3) As prizes for significant tournaments (PT, Worlds, etc), newly printed Revised dual lands with modern text should be awarded - full *foil* playsets for finishes that are deep in the money, single non-foil copies for high non-money finishes.
Wow. Those are some pretty sick vaults.
Typically Vintage tourneys give away some piece of power or similarly expensive card as a prize. But let's say that they decide to do this. It doesn't remotely solve the problem, which, if I may borrow a phrase, is "Power to the people". If there were only a few of these power FTVs printed, and they were given out as prizes, it doesn't make the average man-on-the-street any happier. How is power now available to him? These things would probably command prices equivalent to the originals, unless they were used as FNM promos. It doesn't make it any easier to get into Vintage.
This is another idea that scraps the reserve list and reaps none of the benefits of doing so.
I don't think you have to worry about extremely high value cards being printed that much. Of course, even if they did print them, they wouldn't fall off the price map or anything. Berserk didn't even have much of a problem and it isn't even played much.
The printing reserved list cards in standard only as mythic is honestly stupid. It would be practically irrelevant since there's only a handful of cards on the list that would be mythic worthy by what we've seen so far. Infact, there's probably more cards on there that should have a rarity demotion to common or uncommon. There's even simple limited filler on there.
I didn't mean just vintage tournaments... I was referring to Legacy, Pro Tour, Grand Prix and the like. Even singles could be given as prizes at FNM.
Well, that'd be sure to boost FNM attendance
Yes, they've been printing cards from the reserved list not for sale, but they've been using the foil loophole to do it, not a "not for sale" loophole. The reprint policy doesn't mention "for sale" anywhere.
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