With the release of Plane Chase, There were many planes revealed that we have never before visited. So I think it would be cool to have one of those as a new set. A war torn Ravnica would be cool, or a fall of the Samurai would be cool for Kamigawa. (I would love to say Ninja Wars but Wizards made Ninja's horrible. IMHO, regular Assassins are more threatening!)
If any of you recall from the novels Mirrodin was reverting from being a Artificial World to a real one. So maybe a different world completely.
Your second point is something that people seem to forget very quickly.
Ravnica - No more guilds, Jace in charge of the consortium
Mirrodin - reverting back to Agentum (sp?) a non metallic plane, not sure why it's still called Mirrodin.
Kamigawa - now run by both Michiko and Kyodai, spirits are now at peace,Hitsugu is now an Oni.
If we ever see any of these planes again they will probably feel like new places anyway because of how much they changed toward the end of their stories.
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The idea that modular was the problem in this deck is ludicrous. Outside of Ravager the mechanic appears entirely on marginal cards that never see play outside of Mirrodin block draft for a good reason: it's cute and can be kind of fun but is not actually particularly powerful.
The design of Ravager itself is bad, because it makes the conversion of resources into permanent, recurring power/toughness boosts far too efficient and magnifies brokenness (artifact lands) that already exists in the deck, but an actual broken mechanic can't be kept down -- it shows up repeatedly in drastically different overpowered decks (like the free mechanic did) or establishes itself as a top-of-the-line option in eternal formats (like storm did.) Modular isn't even good on anything that isn't Ravager.
Yeah, instead of interesting new places and settings, let's rehash old stuff over and over again. Particularly old stuff that was overpowered, overrated, and overplayed like Ravnica.
I'm not sure what block you're talking about, but it's definitely not Ravnica, the best-balanced block WotC has ever produced and the one that led to the best Standard environment Magic's ever had.
Uhhh.... so I'm assuming Lorwynn didn't fit, either?
The problem with Kamigawa, IMO, is that it's far closer to the source material than Magic usually is. "Oni" and "nezumi" and "kitsune" are all used to refer to concepts that are precisely identical to the way they're realized either in traditional Japanese mythology or (more relevantly and irritatingly) other Japanese-influenced pop culture references like Legend of the Five Rings. It featured ninjas and samurai who have special ninja and samurai powers that make them special and different from other sneaky and fighty guys in every other setting. It slathered everything in a thick layer of what many people refer to as "fanboy Japanese."
I like for Magic to explore influences from different cultures, but I prefer for them as a starting point from which a unique and distinct world is created (a la Lorwyn, Mirage, or Ice Age) rather than be slavishly emulated.
What flavor? You mean the japanese feel? Sorry but that's exactly what I hate about Kamigawa the most. I'm not against Wizards getting inspiration from real-world cultures, but I just think they've gone too far when designing Kamigawa - their obvious overinspiration with japanese culture made the whole plane not fit into the Magic Multiverse IMO
yes. that is what i meant. i'm a huge mythology buff, have been since i was a kid. that's a big part of what got me into Dungeons and Dragons (and later the fantasy genre of books and gaming in general) back in the mid-80's.
Uhhh.... so I'm assuming Lorwynn didn't fit, either?
Lorwynn was inspired heavily by British mythology.
Planes are very different things, they don't have to mesh together. Certainly if you put Ravnica and Zendikar into comparison, they wouldn't fit together. But that's the point.
my thoughts exactly, and to expand on that point, see Arabian Nights, Mercadian Masques, Mirage, Visions, Homelands, Legends....hell, basically every Magic set pre-Urza was heavily based on different cultural mythologies. that is where the whole genre has it's roots. it's not from some guy who one day back in the nineties had an idea about some crazy flying lizard thing that breathes fire. J.R.R. Tolkein, Gary Gygax, even Richard Garfield all were inspired by the legends, folklore, and mythology of other cultures throughout history. saying it doesn't fit into a fantasy genre card game (especially one based upon a Multiverse of differing planes) is ludicrous.
The problem with Kamigawa, IMO, is that it's far closer to the source material than Magic usually is. "Oni" and "nezumi" and "kitsune" are all used to refer to concepts that are precisely identical to the way they're realized either in traditional Japanese mythology or (more relevantly and irritatingly) other Japanese-influenced pop culture references ....
i don't see how that's much different than using the terms Djinn, Efreet, Gorgon, Minotaur; hell, even Vampire, Angel and Demon. they are all culturally specific terms. although many (especially in the angel/demon case) have been widely adopted and assimilated into Western culture. as westerners, the words "oni" and "kitsune" look unfamiliar to us and/or we more easily associate them with their cultures of origin than something like "minotaur," with which we are more familiar, despite it being based on a Greek myth. for all we know, Japanese players might have found that same kind of familiarity with Kamigawa block and find the "regular" monsters in other blocks that Westerners are used to strange or culturally specific.
I've always been a fan of the Chronicles expansion. I hope they make another set like that again. Reprint famous old cards, but with the new look, yet keeping their original expansion symbols.
i don't see how that's much different than using the terms Djinn, Efreet, Gorgon, Minotaur; hell, even Vampire, Angel and Demon.
Magic Gorgons, Minotaurs, Vampires, Angels, and Demons all have unique qualities and flavor elements that are specific to Magic -- that's precisely my point. I'm not bothered that these words are used, it's that the things they describe aren't varied or changed around enough.
(The efreets and djinns in Arabian Nights, like the whole set, are indeed too derivative in exactly the same way I describe Kamigawa -- because they're exactly based on the Arabian Nights rather than using it for inspiration. I wouldn't want them to do that again either.)
I would like to see a redo of mirage. I love flanking and a fixed and balanced version of phasing could be fun. I'm not sure if the story warrants revisiting, but the location and mechanics have potential.
If they do redo a storyline, I think it's most likely they will redo/retell Antiquities and the Brothers' War as a whole block.
I hope we get a block devoted to only control cards. A set full of life gain, wraths, card draw, counters, manlands, value cards, walls/defenders, discard, tutors, and removal. Then we can play some skill intensive magic for a year
So, you want a set full of nothing but agro hosers.... and no agro to hose.
YES YOU'RE REALLY TESTING YOUR SKILLS HERE. DO I PUT IN TERROR? NO, BECAUSE THERE'S NO CREATURE TO TERROR. LOOK AT ME SHOW MY SKILLS.
Seriously. wtf. Control's at it's most -skillful- when it's trying to fight off a -well built- agressive deck.
But seeing as half your theoretical set is useless, might as well toss it out and put in the stuff lots of people actually want to play.
Anyways... it appears they have trademarks for new Mirrodin stuff. That's probably their next stop.
I think WotC 'ripping off' real-world cultures is a much better step than ripping off D&D, which is what they did until Ice Age.
I agree, but "ripping off" anything is an undesirable approach to take no matter which specific thing is getting ripped off. Something like Legends is much too dependent on traditional fantasy tropes and stolen D&D references; something like Kamigawa is much too dependent on a straight-up, unaltered version of its source material. Something like Lorwyn or Mirage is much closer to the happy medium I prefer.
I just glad to hear Garfield is back to help MaRo out with another set. it seems when Garfield is on team the game is back to The Best of what it can be. I don't know what set it will be but MaRo talked about working with Garfield again a little while back so good times.
Personally i would love to go back to Ulgothra.i love me some homelands like no Other.
I'm going to throw out a wild idea that I'm sure will be unpopular.
What if WOTC does a reimagining of the Dominaria storyline from scratch. This would allow them to revisit the entire storyline from the beginning and avoid the brokenness and overpowerfulness that was contained therein. Because it's going to have a lot of reprints inherent in the set, they could cut out the core set or use it to speed up the storyline. Because it's reimagined, they can also print new cards and condense the storyline so that it's shorter and more manageable.
No, no it doesn't. Kamigawa is just as much inspired in mythos and folklore as is Lorwyn, or even Bant who takes to a certain degree from Zoroastrianism. Its just that you like mainstream fantasy more, with its mixed European origins, familiarity and lower cultural impact.
Kamigawa is significantly more derivative of its source material than Lorwyn: just compare (as one example) its treatment of "nezumi" or "oni" to L5R's take on the same subjects. It exotifies samurai and ninjas in a way that Magic doesn't do to warriors in other cultures, giving them their own different creature types and unique powers. (In fairness, the poorly-thought-out focus on the spirit war probably makes this problem seem even worse because the spirits all blur together into a big jumble.)
Probably my favorite set from a flavor standpoint (maybe even unreasonably so) is Mirage for its implementation of African-themed fantasy, so I don't think preferring only Western fantasy is the issue here. And there are certainly other world cultures I'd love to see used as inspiration for a Magic setting.
So the fact that clear and differentiated aspects of Japanese culture and lore are portrayed as is in Kamigawa is the issue?
The fact that elements are extracted directly from other pop-culture interpretations of Japanese culture is the biggestproblem for me. (The nezumi, especially, are taken more directly from L5R than from any specific folkloric source.)
The fact that samurai and ninja, even if tied together by their own mechanic, are treated as a separate tribe from warriors and rogues is the cause for the problem?
This is a pretty big problem, yes. Samurai are warriors; ninja are rogues. The only reason to treat them as their own unique types is to play up the exoticized view of Japanese culture rather than simply treating it like one world culture amongst many, a source of inspiration for a fantasy world whose cultural elements don't need to be followed closely or held up as uniquely special in some way.
I really don't understand in what way rogue or cleric are acceptable creature types, and samurai or ninja are not...
Because rogue and cleric are non-culture-specific terms that are used for a wide variety of different creature types. A rogue can be a duelist or outlaw or spy or hooligan; they're all covered. There's no good reason why the specific type of warrior and rogue present in a Japanese-themed world should be differentiated but those in an Eastern European or Celtic or Scandinavian or African world should not.
I'd've seen no problem if the Guul Draaz vampires had ninjas, or if Ravnica's Boros Guild had Samurai.
I would have had a problem with that. I'm fine with some more flavour in the creature types, but terms like Ninjas and Samurai have specific historical connotations that might not be appropriate for the setting. For example, a Samurai isn't just a warrior with a specific set of training (horse, bow, sword), it is also a landed noble with an estate and a specific relationship with a higher ranking feudal lord, that might fit in some places (although I doubt Boros would be such a place), but it brings a lot more specific baggage than the "Warrior" creature type.
Now, that said, there is a difference between a creature type and a creature's name. Where the Samurai creature type is not appropriate unless you want to bring in the historical baggage on a group of creatures, it could be used as a throw-away title for a creature. A good European comparison for Samurai would be Templars. You can't just throw the word around anywhere because it has specific connotations, which is why it isn't used as a creature type (Knight would be used instead), but could still be used as part of a creature's name to give that one card a specific flavour-connection.
OK, when you say rogue and cleric are non-culture-specific is where we disagree.
Yeah, let me paraphrase slightly: although the terms "cleric" and "rogue" are culturally-specific originally, they are extremely familiar to anyone within Magic's potential audience, and outside of Kamigawa Magic consistently applies those words to the nearest equivalents in each world we visit.
Don't know about nezumi and L5R though, you could be right...
It was especially jarring to me since L5R used to be published by WotC, so it was hard to imagine they weren't extremely aware of the similarities.
I think, though, there's something to be said about using more flavourful terms over general specificities.
As a broad rule I think creature types are probably a little too consolidated now and more class words, especially, would be useful across the board; I'd like to see stuff like "Nomad" and whatnot get much more use too. It just bugs me that it's treated inconsistently in this case.
A good European comparison for Samurai would be Templars. You can't just throw the word around anywhere because it has specific connotations, which is why it isn't used as a creature type (Knight would be used instead), but could still be used as part of a creature's name to give that one card a specific flavour-connection.
Thank you. This is a perfect example of what I was trying to communicate. I would indeed prefer to see Samurai treated almost exactly the same way a Templar would be -- i.e. printed as a Warrior (or Knight, possibly) creature, possibly given a card name that identifies it specifically as a samurai. I'd be more okay with bushido as a keyword in this case, too, although I still don't like that it's such a universal mechanic but has a keyword that can't be reused in any other setting.
I think it's extremely fine splitting of the hair to say, "Samurai is too linked to Japanese history to be anywhere but" whereas Angel, specifically, the winged human we see in Magic that is clearly of the Roman Catholic origin, is 'generic' enough to fit on Ravnica, Zendikar, and Alara.
The difference is that in the English language, words like "demon" and "angel" and "knight" have already been repurposed to refer to a broad swathe of related concepts by analogy, so it's totally normal to do so further. When people are already used to applying a word like "angel" as a linguistic metaphor ("You're an angel for helping me with this") or applying the word "knight" to anyone who fights for good (see last year's biggest movie) the necessary slippage to apply these concepts across cultural boundaries is already there.
Literally no one ever uses the word samurai in English conversation to refer to anything but a warrior living by a bushi code who fights with a katana and is either sworn to, or formerly sworn to, a master, and for good reason -- we already have purposed the words "knight" and "warrior" to cover all that broader territory. So in English, the word "samurai" has a much narrower use and is inherently culturally-specific in a way that the other words you mention no longer are.
I have to agree that Samurai, Ninja, etc. should not have used such specific creature types to differentiate them from other similar archetypes. Samurai could have easily been Soldiers and Warriors, with the Bushido mechanic to give them their flavor. Ninja could have just as easily been Rogues with Ninjutsu.
A perfect example for why this should be is Adarkar Valkyrie. Why does this have the creature type Angel, and not Valkyrie? The two are very different things in the real world. But, in Magic, that flavor is not tied so closely to its source material; a Valkyrie can be interpreted in such a way that it fits with the image of an Angel and still be reminiscent of the "original."
Lorwyn/Shadowmoor was a good application of being inspired by mythology without being too derivative of it; it made use of unique cultural terms without being too derivative or too alienated from the rest of the multiverse. Boggarts, elves, fae, redcaps, merrows, these are all things that have specific meanings in traditional folklore, but Lorwyn/Shadowmoor didn't just import those meanings wholesale into its setting; it took the inspiration and molded it into something new, that resembled its source material but was still fresh and new.
Kamigawa didn't do that very well. Parts of Japanese culture were basically dropped into the setting with very little changes. Samurai, ninja, and the feudal system are basically the same as the modern images of those things in the real world.
Though there are some things that were done well. The Moonfolk, for example, are purely the invention of Magic. They are inspired by the image of the "rabbit in the moon" but nowhere in Japanese mythology is there a Soratami equivalent.
To be honest I would like to revist planes to continue with thir story lines otherwise it starts to feel like villain/plane/block of the week if you understand what i mean (where the isolated stories are only connected by the main characters (planeswalkers such as Jace) visiting them, solving the problem, and then leaving). According to Wizards (www.wizards.com/Magic/Multiverse/Planes.aspx?plane=dominaria) plane of Dominara is "so vast and its history so rich that even its own veteran storytellers hardly know where to begin" and that's an example of how rich I hope they make all planes.
I hope we do more then just follow around Nicol Bolas like we did with the last two blocks.
as a side note, the more imagintive the species the more I tend to like them such as the Vedalken. Also I feel it opens more design space since there are no preconceived notions (aside from their mana color pie affiliations).
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The difference is that in the English language, words like "demon" and "angel" and "knight" have already been repurposed to refer to a broad swathe of related concepts by analogy, so it's totally normal to do so further. When people are already used to applying a word like "angel" as a linguistic metaphor ("You're an angel for helping me with this") or applying the word "knight" to anyone who fights for good (see last year's biggest movie) the necessary slippage to apply these concepts across cultural boundaries is already there.
Literally no one ever uses the word samurai in English conversation to refer to anything but a warrior living by a bushi code who fights with a katana and is either sworn to, or formerly sworn to, a master, and for good reason -- we already have purposed the words "knight" and "warrior" to cover all that broader territory. So in English, the word "samurai" has a much narrower use and is inherently culturally-specific in a way that the other words you mention no longer are.
For the most part, I agree with this line of thinking. The problem with it is that Magic is a game that is not only played by English speakers or people living in countries that speak English. When Magic began, Americans were the intended audience for the game. Thus, Magic's roots lie in mythologies that were already familiar to Americans that would likely play magic. These mythologies, largely (but not exclusively) Greco-Roman, were already a part of American gamer culture, so Magic did not need to introduce them to Magic players; instead, Magic could create its own interpretations of the myths.
Then Magic became increasingly popular, and its audience grew beyond America, to Europe. In terms of the mythology, this was mostly fine, since much of the mythology Magic relied on was European to start. Europeans were also familiar with most of the mythologies that inspired Magic. Then Magic spread to the rest of the world, notably gaining a huge fan base in Asia. While I am not intimately familiar with any Asian cultures, to my knowledge (if I'm wrong someone please correct me here), a decent amount of the Western mythology that Magic is based of off is not as common in, say, Japan, as it is in the U.S. and Europe. What this means is that, when Magic first emerged in Japan, many players were likely not as intimately familiar with the mythological roots of the game as American or European players were.
Magic is a game played across multiple continents and many different cultures, yet the game has its origins in one particular culture's mythology. As the game's playerbase expands, there is a tension between staying true to the game's roots, and drawing on cultures as varied as those of the playerbase for flavor. Kamigawa was the first set designed to have to tackle the issue of cultural differneces in the Magic playerbase. If the game just used Japanese mythology as the base and then interpreted it for Magic, it ran the risk of alienating American and European players who were not already famailiar with the mythology. On the other hand, if the game didn't create its own interpretations of the mythology, it ran the risk of being inauthentic and making the players already familiar with the mythology uncomfortable, creating the impression that Magic exotified Japanesse culture.
Is it possible that if they were going to make a Ravinca 2.0 could they make it take place before the end of the guilds. Maybe like a prequel so that they could print cards from the guilds. Do you think that would make sense? (flavor wise)
The problem then is, if you have an African themed set (say Mirage) do you change a majority of the scouts into the creature type Bushman? And in a Nordic setting (like Ice Age) why are there barbarians? They would be better flavored as Vikings. I could definitely see Lovisa Coldeyes as a Viking.
Edit: I'd also like to see Witch Doctor made into a creature type instead of Shaman! There's a difference!
Viking is specific to a certain group of people during a certain period of time on Earth, so no.
Weird, because I thought Knight, Samurai and Ninja were also a specific groups of people during a certain period of time on Earth. (Though I will concede there are still knights today.)
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Weird, because I thought Knight, Samurai and Ninja were also a specific groups of people during a certain period of time on Earth.
You're wrong there. Ninja's are beings that can travel to other worlds and are not bound by normal convention. In other words, ninjas are planeswalkers.
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I haven't changed by signature since Mirrodin Besieged spoilers started!
It was especially jarring to me since L5R used to be published by WotC, so it was hard to imagine they weren't extremely aware of the similarities.
L5R was published by a different company before WotC started publishing it and then it went back to that same company after WotC had it for a while. I think the publication rights including certain naming conventions that were retained by WotC allowing them to print virtually identical Nezumi creatures. But in the end, an anthropomorphic rat is not that hard to imagine.
As a broad rule I think creature types are probably a little too consolidated now and more class words, especially, would be useful across the board
There is a fine line to walk here, which I think you see: Too many creature types and it is hard to connect the creatures together mechanically and too few creature types and things become a giant flavour mash.
Kamigawa was the first set designed to have to tackle the issue of cultural differneces in the Magic playerbase.
I don't think so. Arabian Nights has an incredibly strong cultural background coming from the original source material (ie. the name of the set) and Mirage brought in some African mythology as well. Kamigawa might be the most recent blatant cultural mythology, but it certainly wasn't the first.
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Your second point is something that people seem to forget very quickly.
Ravnica - No more guilds, Jace in charge of the consortium
Mirrodin - reverting back to Agentum (sp?) a non metallic plane, not sure why it's still called Mirrodin.
Kamigawa - now run by both Michiko and Kyodai, spirits are now at peace,Hitsugu is now an Oni.
If we ever see any of these planes again they will probably feel like new places anyway because of how much they changed toward the end of their stories.
There's no proof she's being chased
by ninja squirrels either. - Dr. Wilson
From most to least broken, here are some elements of the Ravager Affinity deck:
The idea that modular was the problem in this deck is ludicrous. Outside of Ravager the mechanic appears entirely on marginal cards that never see play outside of Mirrodin block draft for a good reason: it's cute and can be kind of fun but is not actually particularly powerful.
The design of Ravager itself is bad, because it makes the conversion of resources into permanent, recurring power/toughness boosts far too efficient and magnifies brokenness (artifact lands) that already exists in the deck, but an actual broken mechanic can't be kept down -- it shows up repeatedly in drastically different overpowered decks (like the free mechanic did) or establishes itself as a top-of-the-line option in eternal formats (like storm did.) Modular isn't even good on anything that isn't Ravager.
I'm not sure what block you're talking about, but it's definitely not Ravnica, the best-balanced block WotC has ever produced and the one that led to the best Standard environment Magic's ever had.
The problem with Kamigawa, IMO, is that it's far closer to the source material than Magic usually is. "Oni" and "nezumi" and "kitsune" are all used to refer to concepts that are precisely identical to the way they're realized either in traditional Japanese mythology or (more relevantly and irritatingly) other Japanese-influenced pop culture references like Legend of the Five Rings. It featured ninjas and samurai who have special ninja and samurai powers that make them special and different from other sneaky and fighty guys in every other setting. It slathered everything in a thick layer of what many people refer to as "fanboy Japanese."
I like for Magic to explore influences from different cultures, but I prefer for them as a starting point from which a unique and distinct world is created (a la Lorwyn, Mirage, or Ice Age) rather than be slavishly emulated.
yes. that is what i meant. i'm a huge mythology buff, have been since i was a kid. that's a big part of what got me into Dungeons and Dragons (and later the fantasy genre of books and gaming in general) back in the mid-80's.
my thoughts exactly, and to expand on that point, see Arabian Nights, Mercadian Masques, Mirage, Visions, Homelands, Legends....hell, basically every Magic set pre-Urza was heavily based on different cultural mythologies. that is where the whole genre has it's roots. it's not from some guy who one day back in the nineties had an idea about some crazy flying lizard thing that breathes fire. J.R.R. Tolkein, Gary Gygax, even Richard Garfield all were inspired by the legends, folklore, and mythology of other cultures throughout history. saying it doesn't fit into a fantasy genre card game (especially one based upon a Multiverse of differing planes) is ludicrous.
there is always someone saying this about every single set that comes out. that is what gets boring.
Misty Rainforest and friends.
i don't see how that's much different than using the terms Djinn, Efreet, Gorgon, Minotaur; hell, even Vampire, Angel and Demon. they are all culturally specific terms. although many (especially in the angel/demon case) have been widely adopted and assimilated into Western culture. as westerners, the words "oni" and "kitsune" look unfamiliar to us and/or we more easily associate them with their cultures of origin than something like "minotaur," with which we are more familiar, despite it being based on a Greek myth. for all we know, Japanese players might have found that same kind of familiarity with Kamigawa block and find the "regular" monsters in other blocks that Westerners are used to strange or culturally specific.
for all we know, Japanese players may think the same thing about elves or dwarves.
you think the Kitsune are too much? Ali from Cairo and Bazaar of Baghdad actually reference real life places.
Also, I would like to revisit Kamigawa.
Magic Gorgons, Minotaurs, Vampires, Angels, and Demons all have unique qualities and flavor elements that are specific to Magic -- that's precisely my point. I'm not bothered that these words are used, it's that the things they describe aren't varied or changed around enough.
(The efreets and djinns in Arabian Nights, like the whole set, are indeed too derivative in exactly the same way I describe Kamigawa -- because they're exactly based on the Arabian Nights rather than using it for inspiration. I wouldn't want them to do that again either.)
If they do redo a storyline, I think it's most likely they will redo/retell Antiquities and the Brothers' War as a whole block.
So, you want a set full of nothing but agro hosers.... and no agro to hose.
YES YOU'RE REALLY TESTING YOUR SKILLS HERE. DO I PUT IN TERROR? NO, BECAUSE THERE'S NO CREATURE TO TERROR. LOOK AT ME SHOW MY SKILLS.
Seriously. wtf. Control's at it's most -skillful- when it's trying to fight off a -well built- agressive deck.
But seeing as half your theoretical set is useless, might as well toss it out and put in the stuff lots of people actually want to play.
Anyways... it appears they have trademarks for new Mirrodin stuff. That's probably their next stop.
I agree, but "ripping off" anything is an undesirable approach to take no matter which specific thing is getting ripped off. Something like Legends is much too dependent on traditional fantasy tropes and stolen D&D references; something like Kamigawa is much too dependent on a straight-up, unaltered version of its source material. Something like Lorwyn or Mirage is much closer to the happy medium I prefer.
Personally i would love to go back to Ulgothra.i love me some homelands like no Other.
What if WOTC does a reimagining of the Dominaria storyline from scratch. This would allow them to revisit the entire storyline from the beginning and avoid the brokenness and overpowerfulness that was contained therein. Because it's going to have a lot of reprints inherent in the set, they could cut out the core set or use it to speed up the storyline. Because it's reimagined, they can also print new cards and condense the storyline so that it's shorter and more manageable.
Kamigawa is significantly more derivative of its source material than Lorwyn: just compare (as one example) its treatment of "nezumi" or "oni" to L5R's take on the same subjects. It exotifies samurai and ninjas in a way that Magic doesn't do to warriors in other cultures, giving them their own different creature types and unique powers. (In fairness, the poorly-thought-out focus on the spirit war probably makes this problem seem even worse because the spirits all blur together into a big jumble.)
Probably my favorite set from a flavor standpoint (maybe even unreasonably so) is Mirage for its implementation of African-themed fantasy, so I don't think preferring only Western fantasy is the issue here. And there are certainly other world cultures I'd love to see used as inspiration for a Magic setting.
The fact that elements are extracted directly from other pop-culture interpretations of Japanese culture is the biggestproblem for me. (The nezumi, especially, are taken more directly from L5R than from any specific folkloric source.)
This is a pretty big problem, yes. Samurai are warriors; ninja are rogues. The only reason to treat them as their own unique types is to play up the exoticized view of Japanese culture rather than simply treating it like one world culture amongst many, a source of inspiration for a fantasy world whose cultural elements don't need to be followed closely or held up as uniquely special in some way.
Because rogue and cleric are non-culture-specific terms that are used for a wide variety of different creature types. A rogue can be a duelist or outlaw or spy or hooligan; they're all covered. There's no good reason why the specific type of warrior and rogue present in a Japanese-themed world should be differentiated but those in an Eastern European or Celtic or Scandinavian or African world should not.
It would seem that WotC agrees with you, especially with the recent surge in Elk we've seen in the last two sets.
I would have had a problem with that. I'm fine with some more flavour in the creature types, but terms like Ninjas and Samurai have specific historical connotations that might not be appropriate for the setting. For example, a Samurai isn't just a warrior with a specific set of training (horse, bow, sword), it is also a landed noble with an estate and a specific relationship with a higher ranking feudal lord, that might fit in some places (although I doubt Boros would be such a place), but it brings a lot more specific baggage than the "Warrior" creature type.
Now, that said, there is a difference between a creature type and a creature's name. Where the Samurai creature type is not appropriate unless you want to bring in the historical baggage on a group of creatures, it could be used as a throw-away title for a creature. A good European comparison for Samurai would be Templars. You can't just throw the word around anywhere because it has specific connotations, which is why it isn't used as a creature type (Knight would be used instead), but could still be used as part of a creature's name to give that one card a specific flavour-connection.
Yeah, let me paraphrase slightly: although the terms "cleric" and "rogue" are culturally-specific originally, they are extremely familiar to anyone within Magic's potential audience, and outside of Kamigawa Magic consistently applies those words to the nearest equivalents in each world we visit.
It was especially jarring to me since L5R used to be published by WotC, so it was hard to imagine they weren't extremely aware of the similarities.
As a broad rule I think creature types are probably a little too consolidated now and more class words, especially, would be useful across the board; I'd like to see stuff like "Nomad" and whatnot get much more use too. It just bugs me that it's treated inconsistently in this case.
Thank you. This is a perfect example of what I was trying to communicate. I would indeed prefer to see Samurai treated almost exactly the same way a Templar would be -- i.e. printed as a Warrior (or Knight, possibly) creature, possibly given a card name that identifies it specifically as a samurai. I'd be more okay with bushido as a keyword in this case, too, although I still don't like that it's such a universal mechanic but has a keyword that can't be reused in any other setting.
The difference is that in the English language, words like "demon" and "angel" and "knight" have already been repurposed to refer to a broad swathe of related concepts by analogy, so it's totally normal to do so further. When people are already used to applying a word like "angel" as a linguistic metaphor ("You're an angel for helping me with this") or applying the word "knight" to anyone who fights for good (see last year's biggest movie) the necessary slippage to apply these concepts across cultural boundaries is already there.
Literally no one ever uses the word samurai in English conversation to refer to anything but a warrior living by a bushi code who fights with a katana and is either sworn to, or formerly sworn to, a master, and for good reason -- we already have purposed the words "knight" and "warrior" to cover all that broader territory. So in English, the word "samurai" has a much narrower use and is inherently culturally-specific in a way that the other words you mention no longer are.
A perfect example for why this should be is Adarkar Valkyrie. Why does this have the creature type Angel, and not Valkyrie? The two are very different things in the real world. But, in Magic, that flavor is not tied so closely to its source material; a Valkyrie can be interpreted in such a way that it fits with the image of an Angel and still be reminiscent of the "original."
Lorwyn/Shadowmoor was a good application of being inspired by mythology without being too derivative of it; it made use of unique cultural terms without being too derivative or too alienated from the rest of the multiverse. Boggarts, elves, fae, redcaps, merrows, these are all things that have specific meanings in traditional folklore, but Lorwyn/Shadowmoor didn't just import those meanings wholesale into its setting; it took the inspiration and molded it into something new, that resembled its source material but was still fresh and new.
Kamigawa didn't do that very well. Parts of Japanese culture were basically dropped into the setting with very little changes. Samurai, ninja, and the feudal system are basically the same as the modern images of those things in the real world.
Though there are some things that were done well. The Moonfolk, for example, are purely the invention of Magic. They are inspired by the image of the "rabbit in the moon" but nowhere in Japanese mythology is there a Soratami equivalent.
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I hope we do more then just follow around Nicol Bolas like we did with the last two blocks.
as a side note, the more imagintive the species the more I tend to like them such as the Vedalken. Also I feel it opens more design space since there are no preconceived notions (aside from their mana color pie affiliations).
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For the most part, I agree with this line of thinking. The problem with it is that Magic is a game that is not only played by English speakers or people living in countries that speak English. When Magic began, Americans were the intended audience for the game. Thus, Magic's roots lie in mythologies that were already familiar to Americans that would likely play magic. These mythologies, largely (but not exclusively) Greco-Roman, were already a part of American gamer culture, so Magic did not need to introduce them to Magic players; instead, Magic could create its own interpretations of the myths.
Then Magic became increasingly popular, and its audience grew beyond America, to Europe. In terms of the mythology, this was mostly fine, since much of the mythology Magic relied on was European to start. Europeans were also familiar with most of the mythologies that inspired Magic. Then Magic spread to the rest of the world, notably gaining a huge fan base in Asia. While I am not intimately familiar with any Asian cultures, to my knowledge (if I'm wrong someone please correct me here), a decent amount of the Western mythology that Magic is based of off is not as common in, say, Japan, as it is in the U.S. and Europe. What this means is that, when Magic first emerged in Japan, many players were likely not as intimately familiar with the mythological roots of the game as American or European players were.
Magic is a game played across multiple continents and many different cultures, yet the game has its origins in one particular culture's mythology. As the game's playerbase expands, there is a tension between staying true to the game's roots, and drawing on cultures as varied as those of the playerbase for flavor. Kamigawa was the first set designed to have to tackle the issue of cultural differneces in the Magic playerbase. If the game just used Japanese mythology as the base and then interpreted it for Magic, it ran the risk of alienating American and European players who were not already famailiar with the mythology. On the other hand, if the game didn't create its own interpretations of the mythology, it ran the risk of being inauthentic and making the players already familiar with the mythology uncomfortable, creating the impression that Magic exotified Japanesse culture.
Edit: I'd also like to see Witch Doctor made into a creature type instead of Shaman! There's a difference!
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Weird, because I thought Knight, Samurai and Ninja were also a specific groups of people during a certain period of time on Earth. (Though I will concede there are still knights today.)
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You're wrong there. Ninja's are beings that can travel to other worlds and are not bound by normal convention. In other words, ninjas are planeswalkers.
L5R was published by a different company before WotC started publishing it and then it went back to that same company after WotC had it for a while. I think the publication rights including certain naming conventions that were retained by WotC allowing them to print virtually identical Nezumi creatures. But in the end, an anthropomorphic rat is not that hard to imagine.
There is a fine line to walk here, which I think you see: Too many creature types and it is hard to connect the creatures together mechanically and too few creature types and things become a giant flavour mash.
I don't think so. Arabian Nights has an incredibly strong cultural background coming from the original source material (ie. the name of the set) and Mirage brought in some African mythology as well. Kamigawa might be the most recent blatant cultural mythology, but it certainly wasn't the first.