Plains/Forest
When ~ comes into play target opponent gains 3 life.
Very simple. No life loss for the new players. The trouble is that control colors really like these while aggro players really don't.
Another idea:
Forest/Plains
When ~ comes into play target opponent draws a card.
Here we have the same simplicity but now the disadvantage is pretty comparable for both aggro and control. I think the card draw is something new players wouldn't recognize as such a serious draw back while veteran players would be presented with the challenge of balancing how many cards they could afford to give an opponent to stabilize their own mana base.
As my final idea:
Forest with a W tap.
Tap: Add W to your mana poll. ~ doesn't untap during your next untap phase.
Here we get the base forest but if you want access to that second color you're mortgaging your next turn. Pretty good for two color decks or those that need one color primarily with a second or third color occasionally. One major problem with this design is that WOTC has to print 10 lands to cover just the friendly interactions and 20 to hit the enemy colors.
new WU dual
land
:symtap:: add or to your mana pool.
not fetchable by most land tutors or the fetches, but it gives you what you need without totally outclassing any existing lands.
Are you kidding? That outclasses every existing land except for the original duals and the shock lands, and that's only because they have basic land types.
How about one that alternates between tapping for two colors and tapping for colorless? Like:
Toggle Land
Land
~ comes into play with a charge counter on it.
:symtap:, Remove a charge counter from ~: Add or to your mana pool.
:symtap:: Add 1 to your mana pool. Put a charge counter on ~.
new WU dual
land
:symtap:: add or to your mana pool.
not fetchable by most land tutors or the fetches, but it gives you what you need without totally outclassing any existing lands.
No. Wizards will not print cards that are strictly better than basic lands. And no, nonbasic does not count as a drawback for this purpose. Only legendary does. Reasons have been stated in this thread already, possibly more than once already. Go read them.
This is why I don't think they'll print painless fetches, either. They are strictly better than basics. Consider a land that says: "As this comes into play, choose forest or plains. This comes into play as the chosen type." This is functionally identical most of the time and clearly strictly better than a basic land.
Except that the fetch thins out your deck and the shuffling is useful with library manipulation effects. A two color aggro deck could run 12 of these fetches, at no risk.
Yes, these fetches would be inferior to the onslaught ones in older formats, but that is only because of the interaction of the latter with original/ravnica duals. Being vastly inferior in an older format, especially in Legacy and Vintage (which will be the only formats you can play onslaught fetches in pretty soon anyway) is no good reason to print something that is still, strictly better than a basic land. And a lot of people seem to be forgetting that the onslaught fetches were pretty good in standard even when there were no duals to fetch with them.
Drawing a card for the opponent is a massive drawback. ><
I like the idea of painless fetches.
The 'only use this mana on spells that are the colors of the land' duals make a lot of sense, too: they'd destroy 5CC though. But 5CC is already being destroyed.
I guess I could see it ...
Overgrown Waterfall
Rare
Tap: Add G or U to your mana pool. Only use mana made by Overgrown Waterfall to cast Green of Blue spells.
Seems like the most likely to me - it's a new implementation. Hopefully they have the Forest and Island subtype, I'm running Foil in my legacy deck that'd want to run these.
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I think that most of the land ideas on this thread underestimate what wizards may print. Most lands on this thread are strictly worse than the Shadowmoor filter lands which were by far the most balanced land they have ever printed. I was more surprised by wizards not reprinting this land cycle. I had predecited its reprint over the shock lands since it is hard to play more than 6 - 7 in the average deck.
That said... I do not think wizards will print a land worse than the shadowmoor lands. This would dissapoint most players, and not help sell the set, which lets not forget is the real reason why they are printing new lands.
Whoever has predicting a 5 land cycle rather than a 10 land cycle is probably right. They will make half the full cycle now and keep the other 5 in their pocket to sell a later set. Its smart card and marketing management on their part. Unfortunatelly not good for players. (Not sure who voted for smaller sets but I think small sets suck, it gives wizards more opportunities to do things like this)
Ok so I would guess for a land to be darn good... I would not rule out a almost as good rev dual land as many of you are:
Land
Tap: Add Green or Red to your mana pool.
Another possibility I see... Since vivids have been well received is perhaps something like the following:
Cleared Forest
Land
~ Comes into play with 4 counters on it.
Tap: Add White to your mana pool
Remove a Counter, Tap: Add Green to your mana pool
This way they could even do 20 lands (maybe half in 10th and half later)... each land having a primary color and a secondary color in which you must remove a counter for. Its nice no damage comes in untapped, straightforward.
One other side note I also see City of Brass or Gemstone mine in this set possibly... Shards will need more help once all the fix is gone from Lorwyn and Shadowmoor.
Are you kidding? That outclasses every existing land except for the original duals and the shock lands, and that's only because they have basic land types.
i should have specified that they don't outclass any existing rare dual lands (besides the pains). my bad...
No. Wizards will not print cards that are strictly better than basic lands. And no, nonbasic does not count as a drawback for this purpose. Only legendary does. Reasons have been stated in this thread already, possibly more than once already. Go read them.
uh, so many lands are better than basic lands that i don't know quite how to respond to the rest of your statement. please rethink your position here.
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i should have specified that they don't outclass any existing rare dual lands (besides the pains). my bad...
uh, so many lands are better than basic lands that i don't know quite how to respond to the rest of your statement. please rethink your position here.
There is a difference between saying "better" as opposed to saying "strictly better than," which is what I was saying.
Essentially, wizards won't print a land that is better than a basic land in everything it does. It won't print a land that says, for example: "T: Add G to your mana pool. T: Gain 1 life." unless that land also comes with a drawback. Nonbasic is not considered a drawback in this respect. Only legendary is. THE ONLY TIME they've broken this is in Alpha, with the original cycle of dual lands. This has been their stated policy. I don't see them changing that policy now, because it is a good policy.
The reasons why it is a good policy have been explained in this thread already, if my memory serves me correctly. I won't restate them here.
If overgrown waterfall DID exist it would be kinda balanced...not being able to play any artifacts with the mana, nor any other spells but it would make the meta more like all 2 color decks because in that sense they would be true revised duals.
Basic lands are always going to have something over nonbasic the difference being that nonbasic land can get hated on by any land destruction whatsoever. It's why basic's are run in legacy and vintage.
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How about one that alternates between tapping for two colors and tapping for colorless? Like:
Toggle Land
Land
~ comes into play with a charge counter on it.
:symtap:, Remove a charge counter from ~: Add or to your mana pool.
:symtap:: Add 1 to your mana pool. Put a charge counter on ~.
I like this. you still get to use it every turn (unlike Tranquil Garden), but you only get colored mana every other turn. I would play these lands, and I can't find a reason to call them overpowered.
Sure, stuff like Snapping Drake and Goblin Piker are for limited. But Null isn't even playable against a 5 year old whose hand consists of a 6 of Clubs, Blue-Eyes White Dragon, Chimney Imp, and a very large cumquat.
i should have specified that they don't outclass any existing rare dual lands (besides the pains). my bad...
No, still all of them except for, marginally, the Ravnica and Alpha duals since those two have basic land types and can be searched. It out-classes every other dual land even rares. Let's just walk back:
Eventide Filters: Out-Classed. Your land produces both colors without requiring either color.
Shadowmoor Filters: Out-Classed. Same reason.
Lowryn Tribal Duals: Out-Classed. You don't need to run a specific creature type to use these first turn.
Painlands: Out-Classed. Your land doesn't deal damage to you.
Future Sight Duals: Out-Classed. This is not dependent on having basic lands, is not dependent on whether or not you've played a spell, does not give your opponent life, and doesn't cost you life.
Ravnica Duals: Almost Out-Classed. Yours neither comes into play tapped, nor deals you daamge.
Fetchlands: Almost Out-Classed: Yours doesn't deal you damage, and always can add either color. But it doesn't thin your library.
Signet Lands: Out-Classed: Your land doesn't need other lands to work.
Opponent's Choice Land
Land
When ~ comes into play, an opponent chooses U or G.
Tap: Add one mana of the chosen color to your mana pool.
Here's my newest idea. If you randomly splash it in a mono color deck your opponent will just call the other color. If they think you'll do a first turn birds or heirarch, they'll call U, ect.
Are you kidding? That outclasses every existing land except for the original duals and the shock lands, and that's only because they have basic land types.
T: add W to your mana pool.
when ~ comes into play, you may search your library for an island card, reveal it and put it into your hand. shuffle your library afterwards.
simple, supports domain, thins out the deck, no damage. elegant? you judge.
EDIT: Moar examples...
Tainted Islands
Basic Land: Island
T: add U to your mana pool.
when ~ comes into play, you may search your library for a Swamp card, reveal it and put it into your hand. shuffle your library afterwards.
hhhmm.... or maybe this ones are better?
Grove of Wonders
basic land: Forest
T: add G to your mana pool.
when ~ comes into play, you may search your library for a Basic land, reveal it then put it into your hand. shuffle your library afterwards.
T: add W to your mana pool.
when ~ comes into play, you may search your library for an island card, reveal it and put it into your hand. shuffle your library afterwards.
You forgot to mention that it also accelerates your mana...which makes this card impossible to see print.
T: add W to your mana pool.
when ~ comes into play, you may search your library for an island card, reveal it and put it into your hand. shuffle your library afterwards.
simple, supports domain, thins out the deck, no damage. elegant? you judge.
EDIT: Moar examples...
Tainted Islands
Basic Land: Island
T: add U to your mana pool.
when ~ comes into play, you may search your library for a Swamp card, reveal it and put it into your hand. shuffle your library afterwards.
hhhmm.... or maybe this ones are better?
Grove of Wonders
basic land: Forest
T: add G to your mana pool.
when ~ comes into play, you may search your library for a Basic land, reveal it then put it into your hand. shuffle your library afterwards.
so I can play a five color deck with like two of each of these and no other land and keep any hand with one land and I'm guaranteed to have on land of each type by turn five? And am guaranteed to have ten lands by turn ten, and never to draw another?
seems a little broken to me.
on a different point, it's my opinion that when wizards said they weren't going to print lands strictly better than basic lands, I think they are referring to the actual function of the card. in other words, not only does being nonbasic not count as a drawback, but not having a subtype also does not count as a drawback. Wizards would not print a land that simply taps for mana of two types, even though there are all those red moon effects and fetch lands and whatnot.
as I thought on it, of the ideas people have had so far, I think the most likely route wizards will go is some kind of land that has interactions with counters. i.e., a land that adds green one turn and red the next, or can be used to add a second color of mana so many times, that sort of thing.
personally, I kind of expect them to come up with something entirely new, a drawback we've never before seen on a land.
Without the ability to add colorless, it would not be a functional reprint.
No, but the design is not new. So what if it doesn't have the colorless? Is it a new design? No, it does the same functional thing as the design aspect of the card.
They said new design. Not, "a cycle of rare lands that is similar to a previous set of lands we've had." They said "new design."
Therefore, its not going to be any of the abilities from Future Sight.
To repeat once again, grove could never be a cycle because it's drawback is more or less of a drawback for certain deck types. Control welcomes it, aggro won't touch it. These are WORSE than painlands. We can at least expect the lands to improve on pains.
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Plains/Forest
When ~ comes into play target opponent gains 3 life.
Very simple. No life loss for the new players. The trouble is that control colors really like these while aggro players really don't.
Another idea:
Forest/Plains
When ~ comes into play target opponent draws a card.
Here we have the same simplicity but now the disadvantage is pretty comparable for both aggro and control. I think the card draw is something new players wouldn't recognize as such a serious draw back while veteran players would be presented with the challenge of balancing how many cards they could afford to give an opponent to stabilize their own mana base.
As my final idea:
Forest with a W tap.
Tap: Add W to your mana poll. ~ doesn't untap during your next untap phase.
Here we get the base forest but if you want access to that second color you're mortgaging your next turn. Pretty good for two color decks or those that need one color primarily with a second or third color occasionally. One major problem with this design is that WOTC has to print 10 lands to cover just the friendly interactions and 20 to hit the enemy colors.
Are you kidding? That outclasses every existing land except for the original duals and the shock lands, and that's only because they have basic land types.
I'm thinking it will be a Grove of the Burnwillows clone, without the colorless.
Toggle Land
Land
~ comes into play with a charge counter on it.
:symtap:, Remove a charge counter from ~: Add or to your mana pool.
:symtap:: Add 1 to your mana pool. Put a charge counter on ~.
No. Wizards will not print cards that are strictly better than basic lands. And no, nonbasic does not count as a drawback for this purpose. Only legendary does. Reasons have been stated in this thread already, possibly more than once already. Go read them.
This is why I don't think they'll print painless fetches, either. They are strictly better than basics. Consider a land that says: "As this comes into play, choose forest or plains. This comes into play as the chosen type." This is functionally identical most of the time and clearly strictly better than a basic land.
Except that the fetch thins out your deck and the shuffling is useful with library manipulation effects. A two color aggro deck could run 12 of these fetches, at no risk.
Yes, these fetches would be inferior to the onslaught ones in older formats, but that is only because of the interaction of the latter with original/ravnica duals. Being vastly inferior in an older format, especially in Legacy and Vintage (which will be the only formats you can play onslaught fetches in pretty soon anyway) is no good reason to print something that is still, strictly better than a basic land. And a lot of people seem to be forgetting that the onslaught fetches were pretty good in standard even when there were no duals to fetch with them.
I like the idea of painless fetches.
The 'only use this mana on spells that are the colors of the land' duals make a lot of sense, too: they'd destroy 5CC though. But 5CC is already being destroyed.
I guess I could see it ...
Overgrown Waterfall
Rare
Tap: Add G or U to your mana pool. Only use mana made by Overgrown Waterfall to cast Green of Blue spells.
Seems like the most likely to me - it's a new implementation. Hopefully they have the Forest and Island subtype, I'm running Foil in my legacy deck that'd want to run these.
and eyes are full of death besides
but luckily the soul is wise -
it sees beyond my blindness and
forced failure makes a better guise,
so as i come again alive,
it feels like life's a decent plan
Polluted Mire
Land
During your upkeep, you may pay 1 life. If you don't, tap Polluted Mire.
T: Add B or R to your mana pool.
Rare
They would be called "Carnophage lands", lol.
UR Murktide
Pauper
RW Monarch
UW Caw-Gate
UBR Affinity
That said... I do not think wizards will print a land worse than the shadowmoor lands. This would dissapoint most players, and not help sell the set, which lets not forget is the real reason why they are printing new lands.
Whoever has predicting a 5 land cycle rather than a 10 land cycle is probably right. They will make half the full cycle now and keep the other 5 in their pocket to sell a later set. Its smart card and marketing management on their part. Unfortunatelly not good for players. (Not sure who voted for smaller sets but I think small sets suck, it gives wizards more opportunities to do things like this)
Ok so I would guess for a land to be darn good... I would not rule out a almost as good rev dual land as many of you are:
Land
Tap: Add Green or Red to your mana pool.
Another possibility I see... Since vivids have been well received is perhaps something like the following:
Cleared Forest
Land
~ Comes into play with 4 counters on it.
Tap: Add White to your mana pool
Remove a Counter, Tap: Add Green to your mana pool
This way they could even do 20 lands (maybe half in 10th and half later)... each land having a primary color and a secondary color in which you must remove a counter for. Its nice no damage comes in untapped, straightforward.
One other side note I also see City of Brass or Gemstone mine in this set possibly... Shards will need more help once all the fix is gone from Lorwyn and Shadowmoor.
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uh, so many lands are better than basic lands that i don't know quite how to respond to the rest of your statement. please rethink your position here.
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these restrictions make them useless. what about abilities? artifacts?
........................
There is a difference between saying "better" as opposed to saying "strictly better than," which is what I was saying.
Essentially, wizards won't print a land that is better than a basic land in everything it does. It won't print a land that says, for example: "T: Add G to your mana pool. T: Gain 1 life." unless that land also comes with a drawback. Nonbasic is not considered a drawback in this respect. Only legendary is. THE ONLY TIME they've broken this is in Alpha, with the original cycle of dual lands. This has been their stated policy. I don't see them changing that policy now, because it is a good policy.
The reasons why it is a good policy have been explained in this thread already, if my memory serves me correctly. I won't restate them here.
Basic lands are always going to have something over nonbasic the difference being that nonbasic land can get hated on by any land destruction whatsoever. It's why basic's are run in legacy and vintage.
Currently Playing:
Retired
Dual Land - Rare
Land - Forest Island
~Can only be played from your hand
T: Add G or U
No fetching, etc
I like this. you still get to use it every turn (unlike Tranquil Garden), but you only get colored mana every other turn. I would play these lands, and I can't find a reason to call them overpowered.
No, still all of them except for, marginally, the Ravnica and Alpha duals since those two have basic land types and can be searched. It out-classes every other dual land even rares. Let's just walk back:
Eventide Filters: Out-Classed. Your land produces both colors without requiring either color.
Shadowmoor Filters: Out-Classed. Same reason.
Lowryn Tribal Duals: Out-Classed. You don't need to run a specific creature type to use these first turn.
Painlands: Out-Classed. Your land doesn't deal damage to you.
Future Sight Duals: Out-Classed. This is not dependent on having basic lands, is not dependent on whether or not you've played a spell, does not give your opponent life, and doesn't cost you life.
Ravnica Duals: Almost Out-Classed. Yours neither comes into play tapped, nor deals you daamge.
Fetchlands: Almost Out-Classed: Yours doesn't deal you damage, and always can add either color. But it doesn't thin your library.
Signet Lands: Out-Classed: Your land doesn't need other lands to work.
-
Here's an idea:
Tundra Elemental
Land Creature - Elemental
:symtap:: Add or to your mana pool.
1/1
Land
When ~ comes into play, an opponent chooses U or G.
Tap: Add one mana of the chosen color to your mana pool.
Here's my newest idea. If you randomly splash it in a mono color deck your opponent will just call the other color. If they think you'll do a first turn birds or heirarch, they'll call U, ect.
Do you actually read anything people say? They have said its new design therefore not functional reprints of any future sight lands.
Ivory Plains
Basic Land - Plains
T: add W to your mana pool.
when ~ comes into play, you may search your library for an island card, reveal it and put it into your hand. shuffle your library afterwards.
simple, supports domain, thins out the deck, no damage. elegant? you judge.
EDIT: Moar examples...
Tainted Islands
Basic Land: Island
T: add U to your mana pool.
when ~ comes into play, you may search your library for a Swamp card, reveal it and put it into your hand. shuffle your library afterwards.
hhhmm.... or maybe this ones are better?
Grove of Wonders
basic land: Forest
T: add G to your mana pool.
when ~ comes into play, you may search your library for a Basic land, reveal it then put it into your hand. shuffle your library afterwards.
ChibiSwan! YOU ROCK!
...........Shin on the textless Cryptic Command
You forgot to mention that it also accelerates your mana...which makes this card impossible to see print.
I could ask you the same question.
"I'm thinking it will be a Grove of the Burnwillows clone, without the colorless."
Without the ability to add colorless, it would not be a functional reprint.
so I can play a five color deck with like two of each of these and no other land and keep any hand with one land and I'm guaranteed to have on land of each type by turn five? And am guaranteed to have ten lands by turn ten, and never to draw another?
seems a little broken to me.
on a different point, it's my opinion that when wizards said they weren't going to print lands strictly better than basic lands, I think they are referring to the actual function of the card. in other words, not only does being nonbasic not count as a drawback, but not having a subtype also does not count as a drawback. Wizards would not print a land that simply taps for mana of two types, even though there are all those red moon effects and fetch lands and whatnot.
as I thought on it, of the ideas people have had so far, I think the most likely route wizards will go is some kind of land that has interactions with counters. i.e., a land that adds green one turn and red the next, or can be used to add a second color of mana so many times, that sort of thing.
personally, I kind of expect them to come up with something entirely new, a drawback we've never before seen on a land.
No, but the design is not new. So what if it doesn't have the colorless? Is it a new design? No, it does the same functional thing as the design aspect of the card.
They said new design. Not, "a cycle of rare lands that is similar to a previous set of lands we've had." They said "new design."
Therefore, its not going to be any of the abilities from Future Sight.
Twitter
~
:symtap:: Discard a card and target opponent draws a card. Add :symb::symu: to your mana pool.
BUG Dredge BUG]
WUBRG Storm WUBRG
UBR FaerieStalker UBR
EDH
Sygg, River Cutthroat (1vs1)
Maga, Traitor to Mortals (multiplayer)
RG Land
Land
~ comes into play tapped
When ~ comes into play, add G to your mana pool
T: Add G or R to your mana pool
Not simmetric, very unelegant, broken (as strictly better than basic) and bad design.